Rei and the Moon

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Just because there is no single line where someone says "Rei's soul is that of Lilith" doesn't mean that there is anything remotely ambiguous about that notion; it's the bedrock revelation of the series, in the absence of which the story ceases to make any sense whatsoever.

For the record, until EoE was released, no one had the slightest clue that Lillith and Rei were in any way connected, so calling it the "bedrock revelation of the series in the absence of which the story ceases to make any sense whatsoever" is claiming a bit much, really...

The Rei/Lilith connection is driven home (albeit a bit subtlely) in every single episode.

That's funny, because we don't even know Lillith exists for 2/3 of the series, and we think she's Adam until the 24th episode. Prior to the movie, the only "connection" they had was that Rei was responsible for Lancing and de-Lancing Lillith.

Its hinted at several times. In episode 24/24' its pretty much confirmed.

And, since Rei is heavily paralleled to the moon for reasons I've never understood...

Same here. Maybe the Almighty Shin-seiki has the answer we seek!

My, this isn't all that complicated to figure out, really.
Let me start by saying that the key to deciphering what is really going on in NGE is to realize that Anno has his own peculiar visual 'vocabulary' and 'syntax', which one starts to pick up on thru repeat viewings of the show (or, in any case, that's how it works for me ). In other words, there are all sorts of clues to the many mysteries and enigmas of the show that are 'hiding in plain sight', and if one learns to read this 'visual lexicon', it becomes apparent that Anno has been subtlely providing hints and clues to these mysteries all along, throughout the series. (Hint: If you see some image flashing on the screen for a second or less, that is a pretty good indication that it is intended as a clue)

As has been noted, Anno visually links Rei and the Moon over and over again; I think that it's fair to say that he's trying to tell us something... Indeed, with a few exceptions, such as images that establish that the Lance of Longinus has gone " Fly(ing) to the Moon":


one could say that the Moon hardly shows up in NGE except in connection with Rei:


Another interesting exception is our first look at Second Impact (in Ep12):


I'm sure that Anno is making a subtle point here, by showing 2I from a lunar POV, because, as it turns out, the Moon itself was created as a consequence of the First, or Giant, Impact:


(BTW, if you Google the search terms ["First Impact" +Evangelion], as I did while researching this topic, you will get DOZENS of hits on sites that state that the Giant Impact was responsible for the extinction of the dinosaurs :rolleyes

Anyhow, this is the crux of the Rei/Moon connection: The Moon, in Anno's 'visual lexicon' that I refered to above, stands as an iconic representation of the deep backstory mythos of NGE; namely that four billion years ago, two "Genesis Beings" arrived on Earth in the so-called Giant Impact, and that these two entities, Adam and Lilith, are (respectively) the Sources of Life of the Angels, and of Terran lifeforms (including the human race, or Lilim). Or, to put it another way, the Moon and Lilith are both four billion years old, for reasons that are non-trivially connected...

Now it is a very significant point that these two images...




... are, of course, present in the show's opening from the very first episode; this indicates that the Rei/Lilith//Kaworu/Adam nexus, which is the basic, albeit secret, revelation on which the whole series depends, was contemplated right from the beginning, and was not invented for EoE (which was written before the TV ending, anyway).
For these, and for plenty of other reasons that I can get into, in case anyone is not convinced, I intuit that what Anno intends by his constant visual association of Rei and the Moon, is that (Rei+Moon) essentially means (Rei=Lilith) in Anno's visualspeak.


And, as I mentioned above, he drives this point home in every single episode:


Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 08:06 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I actually thought the Rei--Moon connection might have had something to do with First Impact, but I didn't say anything because the idea never really seemed more than a whimsy to my mind.

Now one thing I'm wondering -- did Giant Impact actually create three "Moons" as opposed to just Earth's satellite?

>>Lookie-lookie<<

But if the moon symbolism is equally important to both Rei/Lilith and Kaworu/Adam, why is it restricted to Rei's side?

Originally posted on: 08-Feb-2004, 22:44 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

[quote="Reichu "]I actually thought the Rei--Moon connection might have had something to do with First Impact, but I didn't say anything because the idea never really seemed more than a whimsy to my mind.

Now one thing I'm wondering -- did Giant Impact actually create three "Moons" as opposed to just Earth's satellite?

>>Lookie-lookie I think that the White and Black Moons are called that metaphorically; BTW, didn't you come up with something that links the phrase 'Black Moon' to the extra-NGE Lilith tradition?

As for the emphasis on Rei and the Moon, as opposed to Adam, I would say that it's because the show is Lilim-centric... and besides, Kaworu doesn't show up until ep24.

Originally posted on: 08-Feb-2004, 22:53 GMT

[NakedEYE666 [ANF]]

Anno does have some very interesting visualspeak, and I know that to undestand it is to have tremendous power.... but all there is to it is Rei = Lillith? So then, why show the Moon behind Rei when she's looking down at Shinji? Or is it just little clues that don't translate into scene-based meaning but are just there as clues?

While we're on the topic of visual stuff... what was up with the scene where Misato sees Lilith on the cross and says "Eva? No... it can't be." or whatever and when she sees it and is told it is Adam, the real Adam flashes on the screen. I mean, Misato didn't actually see Adam at Antarctica, right? Is it just foreshadowing, like "This is what you're being told, but here is the truth."

And on a similar line... how about the scene with Shinji & Gendou at Yui's grave, most people say that Rei is in the helicopter with Gendou (that's certainly how it happened in the manga) but I recall seeing that scene a couple times and one time I kept rewinding it and freezing it to look at it, and personally I don't think Rei was in the helicopter at all. (I'm pretty sure) You see the helicopter's outsides, then an image of Rei flashes on the screen, and they don't appear to be related. If I'm right about her not being in the helicopter, I wonder if this is similar "visualspeak?" If my above assumption on what the Adam-Lilith thing meant (probably not) and that I'm right about Rei not being on the helicopter, it could be a kind of foreshadowing like "Here's Yui's grave...but ya know, here's her body." or something like that. At first I thought it was just Shinji thinking about Rei's relationship with Gendou and giving him courage or something, but that wouldn't be the same kind of thing as the Adam one. It could even be another one of Rei's spontaneously appearing sequences. (Or she could just be in the Helicopter but I refuse to beleive that)

Originally posted on: 08-Feb-2004, 22:54 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Anno does have some very interesting visualspeak, and I know that to undestand it is to have tremendous power.... but all there is to it is Rei = Lillith? So then, why show the Moon behind Rei when she's looking down at Shinji? Or is it just little clues that don't translate into scene-based meaning but are just there as clues?

While we're on the topic of visual stuff... what was up with the scene where Misato sees Lilith on the cross and says "Eva? No... it can't be." or whatever and when she sees it and is told it is Adam, the real Adam flashes on the screen. I mean, Misato didn't actually see Adam at Antarctica, right? Is it just foreshadowing, like "This is what you're being told, but here is the truth."

And on a similar line... how about the scene with Shinji & Gendou at Yui's grave, most people say that Rei is in the helicopter with Gendou (that's certainly how it happened in the manga) but I recall seeing that scene a couple times and one time I kept rewinding it and freezing it to look at it, and personally I don't think Rei was in the helicopter at all. (I'm pretty sure) You see the helicopter's outsides, then an image of Rei flashes on the screen, and they don't appear to be related. If I'm right about her not being in the helicopter, I wonder if this is similar "visualspeak?" If my above assumption on what the Adam-Lilith thing meant (probably not) and that I'm right about Rei not being on the helicopter, it could be a kind of foreshadowing like "Here's Yui's grave...but ya know, here's her body." or something like that. At first I thought it was just Shinji thinking about Rei's relationship with Gendou and giving him courage or something, but that wouldn't be the same kind of thing as the Adam one. It could even be another one of Rei's spontaneously appearing sequences. (Or she could just be in the Helicopter but I refuse to beleive that)

Um...




Originally posted on: 08-Feb-2004, 23:03 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I think that the White and Black Moons are called that metaphorically

That's why I put "Moons" in quotations. (But, er... a metaphor for what?) I was referring more to the fact that the White Moon data screen says "possibly created at time of Giant Impact" and the possible implications of that tidbit.

BTW, didn't you come up with something that links the phrase 'Black Moon' to the extra-NGE Lilith tradition?

If I did, my brain's data banks can't remember anything right now.

As for the emphasis on Rei and the Moon, as opposed to Adam, I would say that it's because the show is Lilim-centric... and besides, Kaworu doesn't show up until ep24.

So Anno symbolically ties Rei to the moon and Kaworu to the statue of an angel, even though they're both tied to Giant Impact in the same way? Kinda fugged-up, no?

Originally posted on: 08-Feb-2004, 23:22 GMT

[NakedEYE666 [ANF]]

Um...

EEEh!?!?!?!?!?

Dude, that shot never happened.....

*slinks away out of sight*

Originally posted on: 08-Feb-2004, 23:25 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

That's why I put "Moons" in quotations. (But, er... a metaphor for what?) I was referring more to the fact that the White Moon data screen says "possibly created at time of Giant Impact" and the possible implications of that tidbit.

As I recall, you don't seem to like the idea that Adam and Lilith were originally one being, but that is a possible implication of that, ne?

So Anno symbolically ties Rei to the moon and Kaworu to the statue of an angel, even though they're both tied to Giant Impact in the same way? Kinda fugged-up, no?

It seems to represent more of a problem to you than me... It didn't even occur to me

Originally posted on: 08-Feb-2004, 23:37 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

As I recall, you don't seem to like the idea that Adam and Lilith were originally one being, but that is a possible implication of that, ne?

:bashes head repeatedly against the wall:

:clears throat: Actually... I was referring more to if the creation of the three "Moons" (Moon, White Moon, Black Moon) somehow ALL resulted from Giant Impact... though I have no idea how the creation of a satellite formed from chunks of earth thrown into orbit by a giant collission and the formation of two subterranean spheres with a "clearly artificial" surface structure could have anything to do with one another.

That "clearly artificial" bit rather perplexes me, as well.

On the other bit, if Rei and Kaworu are tied to the moon in exactly the same way -- shouldn't this be reflected in the symbolism? I think the inconsistency there is a little puzzling. Maybe Rei's associated with the moon for another reason.

Originally posted on: 08-Feb-2004, 23:49 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

:bashes head repeatedly against the wall:

:clears throat: Actually... I was referring more to if the creation of the three "Moons" (Moon, White Moon, Black Moon) somehow ALL resulted from Giant Impact... though I have no idea how the creation of a satellite formed from chunks of earth thrown into orbit by a giant collission and the formation of two subterranean spheres with a "clearly artificial" surface structure could have anything to do with one another.

That "clearly artificial" bit rather perplexes me, as well.

On the other bit, if Rei and Kaworu are tied to the moon in exactly the same way -- shouldn't this be reflected in the symbolism? I think the inconsistency there is a little puzzling. Maybe Rei's associated with the moon for another reason.

As for that last point, doesn't the fact that Kaworu doesn't show up till Ep24 sufficiently acccount for that?

Originally posted on: 08-Feb-2004, 23:57 GMT

[Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]]

Rei=moon
Moon=lance of Longinus, first impact, second impact.
Lillith=mother of all humanity
Lance of longinus=humanity always screwing things up
Ergo, Rei=Lillith?

I dun't get it.

I just thought it was part of the Rei=moon, Asuka=sun, Shinji=earth system. And I can back up the Asuka=sun and Shinji=earth components. When we first see her in Ep. 8, she is basically eclipsing the sun; when she tries to make contact with Rei, she again blocks out the light from the sun, thus making Rei's reading slightly more difficult. I'm pretty sure we see her associated with bright daylight a few more times. And of course in EoE there are those scenes where we see the Earth behind Shinji. So how does all this fit into the whole moon=Lillith theory?

Dude, that shot never happened.....

Yes it did.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 00:32 GMT

[NakedEYE666 [ANF]]

Yes it did.

Yeah, thanks man. Without your help I would never have realized that I was actually wrong, and even though I knew very well that the shot happened because it was right there on the page, you helped me to realize that I didn't actually know that until you told me. I owe you one.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 00:38 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Rei=moon
Moon=lance of Longinus, first impact, second impact.
Lillith=mother of all humanity
Lance of longinus=humanity always screwing things up
Ergo, Rei=Lillith?

I dun't get it.

I just thought it was part of the Rei=moon, Asuka=sun, Shinji=earth system. And I can back up the Asuka=sun and Shinji=earth components. When we first see her in Ep. 8, she is basically eclipsing the sun; when she tries to make contact with Rei, she again blocks out the light from the sun, thus making Rei's reading slightly more difficult. I'm pretty sure we see her associated with bright daylight a few more times. And of course in EoE there are those scenes where we see the Earth behind Shinji. So how does all this fit into the whole moon=Lillith theory?

These alleged Asuka-sun, Shinji-earth associations are incidental, and not particularly meaningful, (beyond a simple Rei-cool/Asuka-fiery contrast implied by the Asuka being back-lit by the sun when we first lay eyes on her).
The Rei/Moon connection is several orders of magnitude more prevalent as a recurring visual metaphor, and occurs in contexts where the reading Rei=Lilith serves to make sense of the scenes in question...

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 00:55 GMT

[Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]]

Yeah, thanks man. Without your help I would never have realized that I was actually wrong, and even though I knew very well that the shot happened because it was right there on the page, you helped me to realize that I didn't actually know that until you told me. I owe you one.

Thanks, it makes me so happy to see that I've made a difference in someone's life. If I've helped just one person understand Evangelion just the tiniest bit better, then all the time I've spent here will have been worthwhile

BTW did you know that Naoko Akagi is Ritsuko Akagi's mom? *gasp!*

These alleged Asuka-sun, Shinji-earth associations are incidental, and not particularly meaningful

What's this? The great and powerful shin-seiki saying that obvious connections are meaningless? Damn dude, I thought I had the monopoly on that

I still don't get how you take Rei=moon to mean Rei=lillith, especially in episodes where we don't even know Lillith exists.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 00:58 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

These alleged Asuka-sun, Shinji-earth associations are incidental, and not particularly meaningful

The Shinji--Earth one might have some relevance, at least. Check out this shot. Interesting how they're bordered not only by the Moon and Earth, but by what I'm assuming to be the Sun and the Black Moon, as well.

BTW, FC, your "obvious" attempts to be funny just aren't working for me... I think they clearly highlight your stringency rather than your talent for humor. Please excuse me while I link to this again.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 01:14 GMT

[Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]]

I had that set to my wallpaper once.

The sun and earth thing, not the troll thing.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 01:16 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Thanks, it makes me so happy to see that I've made a difference in someone's life. If I've helped just one person understand Evangelion just the tiniest bit better, then all the time I've spent here will have been worthwhile

BTW did you know that Naoko Akagi is Ritsuko Akagi's mom? *gasp!*





What's this? The great and powerful shin-seiki saying that obvious connections are meaningless? Damn dude, I thought I had the monopoly on that

I still don't get how you take Rei=moon to mean Rei=lillith, especially in episodes where we don't even know Lillith exists.

The scene in Ep26' where Yui says goodby to Shinji isn't hard to figure out; we see Shinji receding (thru the LCL, as this scene is still in Instrumentality) towards the Earth, and the next thing we see is him bobbing up out of the LCL, back in the real word, while Yui recedes back in the opposite direction, into space (just as EVA-01(=Yui) drifts of into deep space). The first draft of Ep26' actually had Shinji ejecting the entry plug and falling back to earth, but in the final version, Anno chose to portray the process more metaphorically. Anyway the shot of the earth behind Shinji in that sequence simply indicates that he is returning to the real world from Instrumentality...

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 01:34 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

No comment on the picture I posted, Shin-seiki? I thought you'd be all over the symbolism in that one.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 01:41 GMT

[Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]]

Anyway the shot of the earth behind Shinji in that sequence simply indicates that he is returning to the real world from Instrumentality...

That interpretation doesn't mesh too well with the shot of Rei, Shinji, Earth, the Sun, the Moon, the black moon, and what look like asteroids.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 01:56 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

That interpretation doesn't mesh too well with the shot of Rei, Shinji, Earth, the Sun, the Moon, the black moon, and what look like asteroids.

I was still talking about the goodbye scene...

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 02:00 GMT