Why is Shinji hated?

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only.

Moderator: Board Staff

Themaninblack
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Posts: 1769
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
Location: IL

Postby Themaninblack » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:18 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:
Sachiel_13 wrote:If Shinji were to move a bit faster before hand, they would've gotten to the cross door long before the soilders and she would've never gotten shot.
Well, there's a thousand "what ifs" you could ask. If they had moved a bit slower, then the soldiers would've likely have moved on and not been there either.

The problem with EoE that most people hate and simply refuse to recognize is that it's a time when circumstances and nature are completely dictating the action. There was nothing any character could've done to change anything as forces beyond their control were already set in action. Shinji was just a pawn that had no power until he was given it by GNR.

Here's another time when NGE goes against the grain of traditional anime, as heroes are generally given the power, from somewhere to overcome overwhelming odds. To change the forces of nature that's working against them. The underdog beats the giants attempting to crush them. Not so in NGE. Each character does exactly as much as they're allowed in terms of physical and psychological ability - and some people get pissed that they didn't do more than they could.


Still dosen't excuse Shinji for his actions but your right. People blame Shinji for 3I for happening for as you said...no god damn reason.
I won.

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 62
Posts: 20427
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:46 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Your hate seems irrational, perhaps you sould take the time to ask why it really exists.


For the record, it's disgust, rather than hate.

And it's probably because I am one of those people who do have to keep on putting one foot in front of the other until death us do part.
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics||MAL
Avatar: Mahou Shoujo Rapture Asuka : "Slice them up with your magical karambit, chu!"

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:48 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:it's probably because I am one of those people who do have to keep on putting one foot in front of the other until death us do part.
As do we all. But if one never stops for introspection, and to try and fix problems in the mechanics, you'll likely end up tripping up, falling flat on your face and, even worse, perhaps taking someone else out in the process.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 62
Posts: 20427
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:57 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:As do we all.


So, which which disabled family members are you having to care for?
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics||MAL
Avatar: Mahou Shoujo Rapture Asuka : "Slice them up with your magical karambit, chu!"

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:05 pm

How does that relate to what I replied to what you said? That because you're having to do so you don't have the "luxury" to break down like Shinji did?
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

mrpanda
Matarael
Matarael
User avatar
Posts: 550
Joined: Jan 13, 2008

Postby mrpanda » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:08 pm

Awww gawd i should take cover, angry eva fans are more dangerous than any other anime fans *gulp*

Mr Tines is of a different generation to a lot of us, one where just carrying on was the only thing you could do and i agree with him, tbh its the way nature works (survival of the fittest) and if you dont carry on what else can you do.
Although i believe that it wasnt shinjis fault and he was kinda helpless in EoE i mean with all the stuff he went through im surprised he didnt break down like Asuka, i mean how many people go through as much shit as Shinji at 14.
Jawohl mein Fuhrer. Heil Asuka!
Believe in I who believeth in ye.Strike the heavan by thine drill Simon. - Ye Olde Gurren Lagann.
<Ornette> that's not how parental blocks work
<Ornette> since there is no Optical Pussy Recognition
<Ornette> there's no way a program can know that an image is porn

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:26 pm

mrpanda wrote:one where just carrying on was the only thing you could do and i agree with him... and if you dont carry on what else can you do.
There's times for carrying on and then there's times for realizing when you can't carry on any longer without fixing a major problem within yourself. Carrying on with a broken psyche is like trying to drive a 20 year old, beat up car that might break down and explode any second. At best you're endangering yourself, at worse, you're endangering everyone on the freeway in your immediate vicinity.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

Themaninblack
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Posts: 1769
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
Location: IL

Postby Themaninblack » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:41 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:
mrpanda wrote:one where just carrying on was the only thing you could do and i agree with him... and if you dont carry on what else can you do.
There's times for carrying on and then there's times for realizing when you can't carry on any longer without fixing a major problem within yourself. Carrying on with a broken psyche is like trying to drive a 20 year old, beat up car that might break down and explode any second. At best you're endangering yourself, at worse, you're endangering everyone on the freeway in your immediate vicinity.


:thumbsup:
There in lays the problem, even if Shinji had carryed on, 3I would still have happened because he dosen't vaule his life yet. He can't get all GAR and save the world. He went through to much. And in the end anyway he fixes that problem and moves forwrad like Tines wanted...Shinji just wasn't just a strong enough character until the very end that is, to do more than react or shut himself off from the rest of the world, when things get shitty. In the end though does. Thats all we can ask.
I won.

Anonymous_Evafan
Minion
Minion
Age: 35
Posts: 3254
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Location: On Reichu's shit list...
Gender: Male

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:45 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:And it's probably because I am one of those people who do have to keep on putting one foot in front of the other until death us do part.

He did exactly that from the begining of the series up till he crushed Kaworu like a bug. I have a challange for you, and no I don't seriously expect you to go through with it, go kill one of your friends and see if you can really carry on like nothing happened. I assure you no person with any semblance of a conscience can. So then I ask what you wanted him to do? Pile on more emotional baggage by wholesale slaughter of people that think they're saving the world? Yeah that'll solve everything. There was no victory to be had there, NONE! He could only delay them at best. What is your great answer for this dilemma?
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

peripateia
Adam
User avatar
Posts: 79
Joined: Jan 28, 2008

Postby peripateia » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:31 pm

i felt Shinji's inabilities weren't entirely his fault...his environment shaped his weak personality/resolve; granted Asuka had the same experiences, but she WAS a child prodigy and perhaps built more confidence as she grew, unlike Shinji who never felt he had any talent at all. Shinji's actions in eoe were despicable; but i can't blame the kid, he was never strong, and after being forced to kill the only person he has left to relate to, depression seems natural. the burden of piloting eva was just too great for him during eoe.

Anonymous_Evafan
Minion
Minion
Age: 35
Posts: 3254
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Location: On Reichu's shit list...
Gender: Male

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:37 pm

Tines once responded to Shinji's mental state after killing Kaworu by saying get up and rub some dirt in it. Needless to say I can't help but find his views on this topic patently absurd and I can't help but think there's a lot more to it that he isn't fessing up to.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

peripateia
Adam
User avatar
Posts: 79
Joined: Jan 28, 2008

Postby peripateia » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:50 pm

perhaps a strong person who didnt need kaworu as much as Shinji did could have "rubbed some dirt in it", but ...its Shinji! i cant blame a person for not being able to benchpress 200 lbs if that person's never worked out in his entire life.

Anonymous_Evafan
Minion
Minion
Age: 35
Posts: 3254
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Location: On Reichu's shit list...
Gender: Male

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:55 pm

I don't think so. There is a difference between watching someone die and actually killing them. As I already said no one with a conscience can ever carry on like nothing happened after killing someone you care deeply about.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

peripateia
Adam
User avatar
Posts: 79
Joined: Jan 28, 2008

Postby peripateia » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:10 pm

well yes i agree...but if Shinji hadnt formed such a lasting friendship with kaworu, he might have had an easier time during eoe;unfortunately he did, and the story is much more interesting than a standard good vs. evil plot. Shinji's a hard person to like because of his distinctly anti-hero characteristics; but for me he's hard to hate as well; instead i pity him.

Sailor Star Dust
Kept you waiting, huh?
Kept you waiting, huh?
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 22888
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Location: Living in Houston, TX
Gender: Female
Contact:

Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:21 pm

EvaYojimbo wrote:Well, there's a thousand "what ifs" you could ask.


There's one I've been dying to ask for some time, actually: If Asuka had said something like "Yes" as opposed to "...No." in the P3II kitchen scene, would Shinji still have snapped?


And Reichu, I love you. ;_;
~Take care of yourself, I need you~

UrsusArctos
The Beginning and the End
The Beginning and the End
User avatar
Age: 32
Posts: 8646
Joined: Jun 28, 2007
Location: Visiting forum at random

Postby UrsusArctos » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:31 pm

It wasn't a lasting friendship: Kaworu was his last hope for any form of friendship, which is why Shinji latched on to him. Then...bam! He's an Angel, and Shinji needs to charge all the way and pop his head off. Who in the world would be able to live through an experience like that and get on with it?

I agree with Jimbo and AEF, because I've tried carrying on with a thoroughly wrecked psyche, and it landed up with me going insane slowly, without realizing it, and lying to myself and everyone else that I was fine and strong and everything else. I don't dare repeat the results here.
[Became a moderator on December 31st, 2007. Became an administrator on September 7th, 2013.]
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX.
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster

Anonymous_Evafan
Minion
Minion
Age: 35
Posts: 3254
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Location: On Reichu's shit list...
Gender: Male

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:48 pm

@peripateia, are you trying to imply a strong person doesn't need friends?

UrsusArctos wrote:Who in the world would be able to live through an experience like that and get on with it?

No one that is being completely honest with themselves. Which is honestly what I think the issue is here.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

UrsusArctos
The Beginning and the End
The Beginning and the End
User avatar
Age: 32
Posts: 8646
Joined: Jun 28, 2007
Location: Visiting forum at random

Postby UrsusArctos » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:00 pm

Or rather, only someone who dumps his conscience like a sack of potatoes.

It becomes easier to understand why Gendo is the way he is. Yui was to Gendo what Kaworu was to Shinji. But Shinji was much more of a child and went into near-suicidal depression. Gendo, the older one, flipped his lid and ripped out his own conscience. I've been between the two states myself, so I know what it's really like.
[Became a moderator on December 31st, 2007. Became an administrator on September 7th, 2013.]
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX.
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:47 am

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:As I already said no one with a conscience can ever carry on like nothing happened after killing someone you care deeply about.
How many war veterans are basket cases after and sometimes during the war? I'm sure they had more than one person completely break down mentally even in the field.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

majlund
Sandalphon
Sandalphon
User avatar
Posts: 523
Joined: Nov 06, 2007
Location: EU/DK/CPH

Postby majlund » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:19 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:How many war veterans are basket cases after and sometimes during the war? I'm sure they had more than one person completely break down mentally even in the field.


After 60 days of continuous combat, 98% of all surviving soldiers will have become psychiatric casualties of one kind or another. The remaining 2% have a predisposition towards aggressive psychopathic personalities.

This is from a WW2 study by Swank and Marchand quoted in "On Killing" by D.Grossman. Just rotating units out of combat for a couple of days every 2-3 weeks offsets this problem greatly.

Now before anyone just grabs this and applies it to Shinjis (and the rest of Nerv) situation. This is when man tries to kill his fellow man.
Conflict between different species allows for fight or flight, while conflict amongst your own allows posture (threat), submittance, fight or flight. Kaworu is the only angel which resembles a human and therefore puts psychological pressure on Shinji, yet there's still room for denial (he's been told Kaworu is an angel, he's sitting in a beserkerprone EVA, his fingers slipped...). Fighting the rest of the angels poses no bigger strain than hunting dangerous animals. Also note that as combat experience increases, fear of injury and death is replaced by fear of letting your comrades down. This makes it almost absurd that Shinji doesn't rush into the final combat to stand side-by-side with his war-buddies.

Shinji breaks down because the story needs him to.
Si vis Pacem para Bellum


Return to “Evangelion Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests