Eva and Asuka both feel the burn

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Postby Original [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:58 pm

before i write the thread here i would like to say if this topic is already in debate on this forum then please dont get upset at me. jsut send a pm or something and let me know, and maybe a link to the forum. thanks Image

so here it is, first i am wondering why it is Asuka in EoE takes on the wounds of here eva. i mean at one time i thought it could be because of berserker mode but then i relized she starts to take on the wounds before berserker mode. you know the whole spear penetrating the two eva eyes simultaniously and then showing Asuka holding here eye and at one point you see blood pooring pooring and even more pooring out of her eye. then the whole guts getting torn out, wich in fact happenes after the evas power source is depleted and before berserker, and it shows her holding her stomach and there is a crimson red blood stain on her stomach. then after berserker starts the harpies throw the spears at her and the first one splits her arm in two, and it clearly shows her taking on THAT wound.

another thing along the same lines that i also wonder about. do you think Asuka dies as a result of all the punishment the eva endures or is she still alive? personally i believe she definately dies, not that it matters too much seeing as how shes there in the end, but still ive seen it debated before.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 01:12 GMT

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Postby Ark [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:00 pm

It's so that she can be shown at the end with bandages making it possible for us to refute ignorant people who say that it's a hybrid of asuka-rei-misato.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 01:22 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:01 pm

The Spear misses EVA-02's eyes:

Image

Image
(Note the pierce holes.)

And I would take a took at this thread, which seems to cover this general topic.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 02:04 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:01 pm

Reichu wrote:And I would take a took at this thread, which seems to cover this general topic.

... It sort of talks about it.

To put it simply, "your mind makes it real" to quote the Matrix.

It's not only with Asuka that we see this:
We see it with Shinji on several occasions (1st episode ... fight with Zeruel ... uhm ... other times I'm sure).
We see it with Rei (fight with 13th Angel).
And we see it with Asuka (fight with Zeruel).
>EDIT
Of course, in these cases, it's only pain the pilots feel.
>End EDIT

And other times I'm sure ... those are just some examples.

As to why it actually physically affects her body?
Again, "your mind makes it real" ... she was in such great synch with her mother at that point, that any physical wounds inflicted onto the Eva became Asuka's own physical wounds.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 04:11 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:02 pm

Knives wrote:Again, "your mind makes it real" ... she was in such great synch with her mother at that point, that any physical wounds inflicted onto the Eva became Asuka's own physical wounds.


From what I understand, it's pretty hard to "will" your arm to cleave in half.

For that matter, it's pretty hard to "will" giant depressions to form in your neck (being throttled by hands that aren't there).

Your mentality can have an effect on the function of your bodily systems, but cause physical wounds to mysteriously manifest? There are those out there who can make their eyes bleed on cue...

Image

...but it's not quite the same thing. Image

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 04:27 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:02 pm

I think only the SoLs can do real physical damage to the pilot. Asuka only felt the pain of being disembowled(otherwise she would have been dead right there,as she is not as strong as the Eva.) That blood was gushing from her eye. Also if you look at where her arm is sliced in half, you see that her arm is seperated between her pointer and middle finger, while when you see one of the MP harpies carrying Eva-02's arm, I'm pretty sure the bone was not sliced; that occured underneath the thumb and slightly toward the center,almost like a cross section of the arm. Can anyone juxtaposed those scenes together, I'm curious to see what that will look like?

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 04:44 GMT

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Postby The Eva Monkey [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:03 pm

Magami No ER wrote:I think only the SoLs can do real physical damage to the pilot.
Then how do you explain the indentations on Shinji's neck when his unit is being strangled by bardiel? How do you explain Rei's nerves swelling in accordance with Armisael's invasion of Unit 00?

The point is that wounds mainfest at higher synchro rates. Hence why pilot's synche rates are supposed to be dropped at time times when physical pain becomes an issue.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 04:53 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:03 pm

I will take an example from the manga(whether it is cannon or not, I still think it shows something) When Shinji's arm starts to feel the twist of being pulled by Sachiel, Misato reassures him that "It is not his arm" being twisted, it was Eva's. The pilots felt the pain(so naturally,in Bardiel/Eva-03's case, the skin would haved to be pushed back on Shinji's neck, whether to show the pain they were experiencing more realisticly,or if the nerve connections had something to do with it) because their bodies would react to it, being connected to Eva. When Gendo cuts of Eva-00's arm off when Bardiel starts to infect it,the nerve connection and synch-ratio are still normal. Rei screams as if her arm was cut off, but her arm just doesn't actually fall off. Only a SoL seems to have the ability to have inflicted the actual damage onto Asuka. If it had to do with her high sych-ratio, then Asuka's guts would have spilled out of her when the MP's torn into Eva. I don't believe dropping Asuka's synch-rate would have saved her. I also don't think Armeisael going into Rei was an injury per say, more like a result of the Angel infecting anything that was inside Eva, whether Rei was connected to Eva-00 or not.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 05:22 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:03 pm

Ah, you must mean SoL = Spear of Longinus, not Source of Life. (That's the main problem with abandoning the "Lance" translation... We get conflicting acronyms!) I was confused there for a second...

I was a proponent of the Spear = Physical Damage to Pilot idea at one point. Then I realized that Shinji got off kind of light after his mama got stabbed through the palms, and a big problem remained.

Image

And a comparison between Asuka and her mama's arms:

Image

Image

With Rei and Armisael... Aaron, I have no idea where you get this idea that her nerves were swelling. What we see on Rei is a direct reflection of Armisael's biomass invasion ("biofusion") into EVA-00. Armi's tentacle rape begins below Zero's solar plexus (where the core is):

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...and spreads from there:

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When EVA-01 is invaded...

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...a similar thing happens to Shinji, although things get kind of weird:

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But it could be argued that what we see on Shinji and Rei isn't "really there" and is simply a "visual metaphor" for their own perception of what is happening to their bodies while they are connected to the Evas. Consider how biofused EVA-01's face is after Armisael is forced to withdraw...

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...and the fact that Shinji looks perfectly fine afterwards:

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But I suppose EVA-01 looks suspiciously fine, too, aside from being discolored:

Image

I would argue, though, that EVA-01 represents a continuity gaff, whereas Shinji does not...

Considering the pilots need to be able to feel their Evas' pain to pilot properly, that things like this happen is not too wild:

Image

But stuff like Shinji's neck, again, can only really be explained, to my mind, by "visual metaphor":

Image

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 15:29 GMT

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Postby The Eva Monkey [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:04 pm

Reichu wrote:But it could be argued that what we see on Shinji and Rei isn't "really there" and is simply a "visual metaphor" for their own perception of what is happening to their bodies while they are connected to the Evas.
This is where I'm struggling. Because almost every theory can be disproved by an occurance in the show at one point or another, but then those inconsistancies simply get written off as being like a "visual metaphor". In my mind, it's pointless to try and create laws to govern a work of unrealistic fiction, especially when the laws and theories pertain to the surface matter of the show. You've said that I'm elitist, refusing to accept ideas like these and merely focusing on the expressionistic aspects of the show, but in my mind, these are the only truly concrete ones. You can understand my frustration in this. Eva, as great as it is, is full of plot holes, inconsistancies, and exceptions. You can't apply logic, law, or predicatbility to it, you just can't. It merely has enough of a concrete concept to draw you in and get you thinking, but when you think hard enough, you realize that it truly is incomprehensible. No wonder Hideaki Anno refuses to answer little nitpicky questions like these, because he's one of the only ones who actually know first hand how flawed his creation is. And if he were to come out and publicly explain even a few of the mysteries of this show, it would negate the entire mental "fun factor" of the show, and people like you and me wouldn't be here trying to out-dork each other.

And by the way, in this instance, the inconsistancy is pertaining to the director's cut. The arguement is if you wanna take the DC scene of this as canon over the orginal.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 17:54 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:07 pm

Sorry, I was mistaken about the difference between Asuka and Eva's hand spliting;they were the same. As for Shinji's non-reaction to the pain, he was seriously emotiomaly drained at that point after(and lesser degree before) seeing Eva-02 in pieces. The stimgata itself had its inconsisties-they did not appear to be holes(you can see the lines of Shinji's hands in in the stigmata) at all.They also didn't show up on Shinji at any point in the movie, even right after they appeared. According to people who've claimed to get it, the wound is not suspose to bleed and does not hurt at all. Go figure. One more accuracy note-Christ was not nailed to the cross thourgh the palms, his weight would have ripped his hands off. He was nailed by the wrists, adding to his pain and my confusion.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 18:21 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:08 pm

Monkey: Why do you have such a problem with the 'visual metaphor' concept? In truth, it's nothing more, and nothing less than the visual adaptation of the literary device of 'stream-of-consciousness'. It's not, to my mind, inconsistent in any way. NGE has a good number of inconsistencies, but I don't regard this as being one of them. The pilots simply would not survive, if everything that we see happen to them were objectively correct, but subjectively, it is just as painful. The reason for the use of the 'visual metaphor' is merely to allow we, the audience, to get a better understanding of what is going on.

There are a great many instances in anime where what is shown to the viewer is merely a representation of the perceptions of one or more of the characters. Even with my limited knowledge of Anime, I know this. Sometimes, it is not even a representation of a character's perception, it is simply a narrative device placed into the visual or audio presentation to smooth the flow of the story. The best example I can think of right now, is explosions in space, in a sci-fi anime. The sound does not truly occur, but it is added to the presentation to enhance the experience for the audience. Sometimes, the depiction of an Eva pilot's injuries appears to be much the same.

At other times, it would appear that a pilot really does get injured, but I would suspect that this is more down to physical damage to the Eva occuring in or around the area containing the entry plug.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 18:34 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:09 pm

Monkey: The NPC scenes ARE canon over the original versions.

It does not surprise me, though, that they neglected to take the biofusion into EVA-01 into consideration when depicting her after Armisael's defeat... Lazy bums -- all you needed to do was Photoshop the original painting!

With regards to the stigmata, I was mostly pointing out that they appear on Shinji as merely shaded regions, whereas they are gaping, bloody holes on his mama. Indeed, the things are still there at the end of EoE:

Image

Asuka's injuries in #25', at least the eye, definitely seem to be "real" and not a figment of her imagination, unless she is simply IMAGINING her eye bleed... I'm actually surprised that she's as feisty afterwards as she is, considering the Spear is going THROUGH Kyoko's head and brain; if Asuka's really supposed to be feeling her mama's pain, I would have expected her to be feeling a little more. In fact, depending on what parts of the brain those two tines are penetrating (one fellow got a railroad spike through his skull and lived), Asuka arguably ought to have been feeling a little dead as a result... Human brains don't handle punishment as well as an Eva's.

It's difficult not to conceed that this case is one of the ones that makes absolutely no sense, even within the logic established earlier in the show. The moment the Spear hits Kyoko, the power runs out. ALL SYNCHRONIZATION SHOULD HAVE DIED. Yet Asuka merrily continues whimpering and bleeding. And when the harpies violate Kyoko's body, Asuka somehow manages to feel it. ...Huh? Image

Like I've said, though, #25' is full of these stupid gaffs in general. The harpies mysteriously lose their injuries to rip Kyoko apart, only to have the damage reappear later. (And, even so, #26' is still inconsistent about exactly how to depict the injuries... The harpy that was cut in half is flying around without a lower body when EVA-01 is "crucified", but, after the harpies kill themselves, her lower body is mysteriously floating in alignment with the upper half, but isn't physically connected...) Another fun gaff I noticed recently is that in the disembowelment scene, you can see Kyoko's arms flailing in pain -- dur, I thought she hadn't "reactivated" yet?

About the holes being in her palms -- well, this is just another of those stupid things that has gotten muddled over the centuries (kind of like the "Lucifer is another name for Satan" fiasco :hohum: ). An explanation for the palms vs. wrists is offered up here.

Soluzar wrote:At other times, it would appear that a pilot really does get injured, but I would suspect that this is more down to physical damage to the Eva occuring in or around the area containing the entry plug.


I can't think of any instances of this happening anywhere in the show...

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 08:06 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:10 pm

Reichu wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Soluzar At other times, it would appear that a pilot really does get injured, but I would suspect that this is more down to physical damage to the Eva occuring in or around the area containing the entry plug.

I can't think of any instances of this happening anywhere in the show...

Put it down to a slightly fuzzy memory on my part... Come to think about it, the only times a pilot gets serious physical damage that I can remember are Rei, when Zero goes beserk, and then Toji in the 'dummy plug' incident. I was just trying to cover all my bases. Image

I still stand by everything else I said, though. My fuzzy memory of the show notwithstanding, what we see is only a representation of what is 'really' happening, with it's own set of visual and auditory conventions.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 08:38 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:10 pm

Well, as much as the movie has influenced me artisticly and is such a masterpiece(to me), it does have flaws that we must accept, and leave it at that.As for the synch rate having susposed to have been stopped,it could have been a mistake, but we could assume that Asuka was so connected to Eva after realizing it was her mother, that she felt the pain anyway,and easily berserked as a result.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 08:42 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:10 pm

Soluzar wrote:Put it down to a slightly fuzzy memory on my part... Come to think about it, the only times a pilot gets serious physical damage that I can remember are Rei, when Zero goes beserk, and then Toji in the 'dummy plug' incident. I was just trying to cover all my bases. Image

That physical damage accrues (sp?) from something completely different (namely being ejected into the ceiling, then wall, then falling however far to the floor for Rei, and being crushed in the entry plug for Toji).

Soluzar wrote:Monkey: Why do you have such a problem with the 'visual metaphor' concept? In truth, it's nothing more, and nothing less than the visual adaptation of the literary device of 'stream-of-consciousness'. It's not, to my mind, inconsistent in any way. NGE has a good number of inconsistencies, but I don't regard this as being one of them.

I don't know Monkey's response, but I know I have a problem with it when you use it as an excuse to explain away inconsistencies with your theory. If evidence comes up with refutes your theory, it's juvenile to say "Oh, well that's just visual metaphor" or "Oh, that's just a mistake on Anno's part"

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but to simply write it off as such without considering the possibility is a little childish.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 21:30 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:10 pm

Knives wrote:That physical damage accrues (sp?) from something completely different (namely being ejected into the ceiling, then wall, then falling however far to the floor for Rei, and being crushed in the entry plug for Toji).

Yes, I did recall that after making my first post. My second post did not entirely make this fact clear, but in any case, unless there are cases of actual, physical damage occuring to the pilot as a result of damage to the Eva, I rather think that this strengthens the case for the theory under discussion. Please note that suffering from stress and shock can be put down to the fact that they do feel the pain of the Eva.


Knives wrote:I don't know Monkey's response, but I know I have a problem with it when you use it as an excuse to explain away inconsistencies with your theory. If evidence comes up with refutes your theory, it's juvenile to say "Oh, well that's just visual metaphor" or "Oh, that's just a mistake on Anno's part"

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but to simply write it off as such without considering the possibility is a little childish.


It does not have to be an inconsistency. I contend that it is a legitimate visual presentation style, and furthermore, the only theory which takes into account most of the evidence. There are inconsistencies in the show, I don't deny that, and nor does anyone else. This does not seem to me to be one of them.

State your arguments against the idea of a non-literal visual representation, if you don't like it. So far, all anyone has offered by way of argument is, "I don't like it!". That to me seems to be the less mature way of arguing, but if you'd rather throw mild insults than formulate theories, then forgive me if I choose to hold to the theory that makes most sense to me

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 21:50 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:10 pm

Soluzar wrote:State your arguments against the idea of a non-literal visual representation, if you don't like it.

We see on two seperate occasions pilots receiving physical incarnations of damage compared to what is happening to Eva.
Rei and Armisael.
Shinji and Bardiel.

The third time this is seen is in EoE.
Asuka and the MPEvas.

I don't see any need for further evidence than this.
If you really want to suggest that both of the above incidents are merely "visual representation" (artistic means of showing the pain [ie. it's not actually happening]) feel free. But you're doing so in the face of ignoring two instances for the sake of one.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 21:55 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:11 pm

Knives wrote:We see on two seperate occasions pilots receiving physical incarnations of damage compared to what is happening to Eva.
Rei and Armisael.
Shinji and Bardiel.

The third time this is seen is in EoE.
Asuka and the MPEvas.

I don't see any need for further evidence than this.
If you really want to suggest that both of the above incidents are merely "visual representation" (artistic means of showing the pain [ie. it's not actually happening]) feel free. But you're doing so in the face of ignoring two instances for the sake of one.


The best argument I can offer, I already have done. It is my belief Shinji would have died from that amount of physical abuse to the neck region. In the case of Rei, she did not, as far as I recall, die as a result of her physical injuries sustained, but as a result of blowing herself up with an N^2 device. As to Asuka, since I don't regard myself as one of the more knowledgeable forum members, I will be forced to admit that I don't have an answer to that one, but hopefully someone else will.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 22:09 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:11 pm

Soluzar wrote:Come to think about it, the only times a pilot gets serious physical damage that I can remember are Rei, when Zero goes beserk, and then Toji in the 'dummy plug' incident. I was just trying to cover all my bases.


In those cases, it is the entry plug itself being banged around or crushed that results in the injury to the pilot. Before EoE, I can't think of any times where Eva damage (or other types of physical change) carry over to the pilot in a sense that can be considered "real" as opposed to being "visual metaphor" -- something "imagined" that is represented as being real to the pilot, but disappearing once synchronization is cut, as we see with Shinji in #18 and #23 (and, arguably, with Rei in #23 as well -- we only see her arm and hand afterwards, but there is no sign of that thick venous crap, which would be apparent even in silhouette).

Rei and Asuka both sustain injuries in episode #18, which we see at the beginning of #19:

Image

But these are apparently very minor and are completely gone by the time Zeruel shows up... I'd personally attribute them to being banged around inside the plug (the LCL can't always do its job...), considering how their Evas are attacked.

I will have to concede one instance to your earlier point about "damage around the entry plug" Image -- I suppose Shinji getting messed up by Ramiel's heat ray sort of fits.

Various other times, we'll see the pilots in the hospital after a battle, although, again, I would not attribute this to Eva-->pilot damage... I never bothered to pay much attention to these occurences myself, but I would venture to guess that a lot of them have to do with neural trauma. I'll have to look at this more closely when I browse through the series for evidence on the entry plug visuals.

Magami no ER wrote:it could have been a mistake, but we could assume that Asuka was so connected to Eva after realizing it was her mother, that she felt the pain anyway,and easily berserked as a result.


I will concede that the Asuka-Nigouki situation in episode #25' is unlike anything we've seen before... The Eva is in an awakened state (as evidenced by the roars, grunts, and various other things), but the pilot still has some kind of control. The Shinji-Shogouki situation is similarly unique, in that they are synchronized to the point where Shinji feels what Yui feels, but he does absolutely no piloting whatsoever. Back to the former... Shinji DOES, enigmatically, achieve the fabled "400% synchronization rate" with Yui in an unpowered plug, although, while he is in the process of doing so, he only feels the damage being done to Sho indirectly (being inside her body, and all) and not vicariously, as he would were he synchronized. How this can apply to the Asuka situation escapes me, though. My inclination is to think that what happens in #25' is a very big botch, and Asuka shouldn't be any more aware of her mama being gutted that the movement of EVA-02's body (and, hence, the entry plug) while it is happening...

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 22:14 GMT


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