Whom ought we to consider the "true" villains?

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Invincible Kaji
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Whom ought we to consider the "true" villains?

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Postby Invincible Kaji » Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:47 pm

From a little musing done on the series, I have come to these conclusions that I post here for the sake of earnest debate.

My first point is that the Angels are not the villians of the series. They are a "force of nature", much like the wind, or an earthquake, or a tidal wave.
They were going to show up and "happen", guided by a force beyond them. About their shows of intelligence, the Dead Sea Scrolls did state that each messanger would be more insidious than the last.

My second point is that villiany will be revealed by discoving what is proper use of the Project E technologies, and what is abuse.

For the moment ignoring the Angels' purpose in man's evolution, they aren't much more than natural disasters. Therefore, the Evas are just means to prevent the damage from these disasters. Those whose true purpose was simply survival by means of pitting the Evas against the Angels are not the villians, as they are fighting to protect humanity. This, it seems, constitutes proper use of Project E.

Seele and Gendo, however, were planning to abuse the Project E technologies: Seele, to project its vision of evolution on mankind, and Gendo, to realize his selfish desire to be with his wife again. It's a fair guess that humanity as a whole does not want this visited upon it.
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Postby Gilgamesh » Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:07 pm

I don't think that there are any true villains in Evangelion. Almost every character is his/her greatest enemy.
A person...is a shadow which we can never penetrate, of which there can be no such thing as direct knowledge, with respect to which we form countless beliefs, based upon words and sometimes actions, neither of which can give us anything but inadequate and as it proves contradictory information-a shadow behind which we can alternately imagine, with equal justification, that there burns the flame of hatred and of love.
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Postby sadsadshinji » Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:07 pm

if anyone...seele... they attempted to reach third impact no matter the cost, no matter the lives in between...
gendo was trying to make an altered impact so that he could be with yui..

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Postby Dave » Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:18 pm

There are no clearly defined 'villains' in Evangelion. All the 'bad' characters in the show are acting upon what they believe to be right. Seele believes that humanity will be happier as one entity. Gendou believes that he and Yui should be together, forever. Thus, they both take actions to ensure that what they believe comes to fruition.
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Postby the_seventh_child » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:20 am

that's another thing that make Eva differs..there are not "true villains"..everyone believed in something(Seele-Gendo)and therefore they made what they thought for them that would be right..you cannot blame them for this..
maybe you can say that they were cold-hearted or without feelings or something but this cannot make them villains..
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Postby MAGI » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:40 am

The_seventh_child's got the perfect sum-up. That's all it takes.
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:22 pm

In light of realizations of Gendo's character in End of Evangelion, I would say there are no "villains". Gendo seemed pretty damn evil until the movie. But he's really just flawed and misunderstood. To some degree, I would say that every character or group has its flaws. Some may seem more "good" than others, but I would say there are no "evil" characters in Eva.
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Postby Shin-seiki » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:37 pm

Sheesh! Where'd all this appalling moral relativism come from?! Was Hitler just "mis-understood"? Do the devil-worshiping savages that flew the planes into the WTC get a pass because they were sincere? SEELE and Gendo were monsters! Hello? Remember Second Impact? 3+ billion dead?! And geeze, pay a little mind, will you, to the thuggish tactics that SEELE resorts to towards the end of the story...

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Postby Dave » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:51 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:Sheesh! Where'd all this appalling moral relativism come from?! Was Hitler just "mis-understood"? Do the devil-worshiping savages that flew the planes into the WTC get a pass because they were sincere? SEELE and Gendo were monsters! Hello? Remember Second Impact? 3+ billion dead?! And geeze, pay a little mind, will you, to the thuggish tactics that SEELE resorts to towards the end of the story...


Hitler did what he thought was right, there is no doubt in my mind about that. The same goes for those who flew the planes into the world trade center. You can not simply classify people who do bad things as 'evil', it doesn't work. And besides, isn't three billion dead better than 6 billion dead?
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Postby Gilgamesh » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:23 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:Sheesh! Where'd all this appalling moral relativism come from?! Was Hitler just "mis-understood"? Do the devil-worshiping savages that flew the planes into the WTC get a pass because they were sincere? SEELE and Gendo were monsters! Hello? Remember Second Impact? 3+ billion dead?! And geeze, pay a little mind, will you, to the thuggish tactics that SEELE resorts to towards the end of the story...


In the end, those deaths didn't matter because they were reborn in the sea of LCL anyways. And Seele had a hand in bringing that about. I do not think that Seele even is evil or at least as evil as most people think they are.
A person...is a shadow which we can never penetrate, of which there can be no such thing as direct knowledge, with respect to which we form countless beliefs, based upon words and sometimes actions, neither of which can give us anything but inadequate and as it proves contradictory information-a shadow behind which we can alternately imagine, with equal justification, that there burns the flame of hatred and of love.
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Postby Dark FireStar » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:16 pm

To me there is no good or evil. There is only the actions that I do and the outcome of those actions that effect me and the people around me in a + or - way. The humans are very gulible creatures if they are told that person/entity is evil they will belive it. Like the World Trade Center stuff the (whoever did it) where risen to belive that the U.S. was evil (which has some truth) and they did what they thought was right. Hitler told the german people that the jews were the cause of all the wrong in germany and the german folk were egger for the extermation of the jews.

~thats probilty one of the longist post of mine lol :mrgreen:
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Postby TheUserName » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:24 pm

There is no defining evil force in Eva, things aren't black and white as that. All the characters are acting on there own blurred views of what is 'right'.

Thinking back to Gendou's line in Episode 18:

'The need is the justification, there are no other factors to consider'.

This line applies to each of the key player's in NGE, as they are acting on what they deem the common good, the main directive so to speak.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:11 am

Gilgamesh wrote:In the end, those deaths didn't matter because they were reborn in the sea of LCL anyways.


I'm not so sure if this applies to the people killed in Antarctica or as a result of 2I...
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Postby Karma Burn » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:13 am

There are no villians in Evangelion. The characters are just people who are after their own goals.
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Postby Vulkurt » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:44 am

Dark FireStar wrote:To me there is no good or evil. There is only the actions that I do and the outcome of those actions that effect me and the people around me in a + or - way. The humans are very gulible creatures if they are told that person/entity is evil they will belive it. Like the World Trade Center stuff the (whoever did it) where risen to belive that the U.S. was evil (which has some truth) and they did what they thought was right. Hitler told the german people that the jews were the cause of all the wrong in germany and the german folk were egger for the extermation of the jews.


Ah! The Hamlet Defense! "Tis nothing good nor bad, but thinking makes it so." Very Buddhist.

Mankind is mankind's greatest enemy. Always has been, always will be, until we wipe ourselves completely out.
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Postby coff » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:23 pm

The fact that Gendo is misunderstood doesn't mean he's not a villain. His motives for starting third impact were based on his own selfish desires to see his wife again, not for the betterment of humanity, which supposedly was Seele's goal. Gendo isn't evil, but I believe he, more than anyone else in Eva, is a villain.

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Postby Dark FireStar » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:49 pm

Vulkurt wrote:
Dark FireStar wrote:To me there is no good or evil. There is only the actions that I do and the outcome of those actions that effect me and the people around me in a + or - way. The humans are very gulible creatures if they are told that person/entity is evil they will belive it. Like the World Trade Center stuff the (whoever did it) where risen to belive that the U.S. was evil (which has some truth) and they did what they thought was right. Hitler told the german people that the jews were the cause of all the wrong in germany and the german folk were egger for the extermation of the jews.


Ah! The Hamlet Defense! "Tis nothing good nor bad, but thinking makes it so." Very Buddhist.

Mankind is mankind's greatest enemy. Always has been, always will be, until we wipe ourselves completely out.


What do you mean on you first line?? :?:
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Postby Carl Horn » Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:40 pm

I've said before that I believe NERV to be no better than Al-Qaeda. It's not so much that there are no villains in life, but that most people who are villains don't see themselves to be. But that doesn't stop them from being villains. We can understand the human weakness of the characters without excusing what they do. If you lost someone you loved, would that give you the right to take another's life just to bring that person back?

Watch the latest video on the news of that bearded guy (not Gendo, the other one). Bin Laden says he did it to avenge the Lebanese and Palestinians. Did they all vote for him to do that or something? And, of course, do we believe a person's stated reasons for their actions? How much do they believe their own reasons?

I feel the same way about both Kiel and Gendo. Who asked them? And I get suspicious of any claim that "we have to do it, because the prophecies say this, or say that otherwise..." Because it reminds me of people who interpret the Bible or Koran and then go out and kill, except in EVA it's billions instead of thousands.

And can you imagine going up before a judge and saying, "Yes, I killed them, but it shouldn't really count because, you see, eventually there'll be a resurrection and all their souls will be gathered up?"

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Postby Kiel » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:24 pm

In a way, you could say that NERV, the organization that's actually protecting the world from "third impact", is the enemy.

Try to look at it from an outsider's point of view.

Most of the owrld is unaware of it, it's the biggest consumer on the planet in terms of money, labour, resources, etc. They're a bigger consumer in 2015 than both present USA, Canada, and Europe combined!

That's a lot of consumption :shock: !!! Millions of people would suffer, and add insult to injury, Gehrin really kicked it up into high gear (becoming NERV) just as the world's economy began to balance out a bit after the second impact!

If he survived, Michael Moore would have written books and made documentaries about NERV!

:) "Shame on you, Mr. Ikari! Shame on you!!!"

I'd say, NERV could be considered an evil organization, but all things considered, a necessary evil organization.

Now...what about SEELE?

an even secretier ( :x I know, not real word, so sue me!) organization that's pulling the strings of NERV branches throughout the world. Could they be considered the villians? They did seem to be made up of about, what, 9 or 12 or so individuals deciding the entire world's fate.

That's kinda villanish, don't you think?

hmmmm...

Of course, the real villans would actually be people...like our beloved Kensuke! Probably making Eva war memorobilia in his apartment, selling NERV's secrets over the internet.

Heck, maybe he's the one who stole Half Life 3!

All good questions!
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Postby DatDude » Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:50 am

The characters of eva have only one realy enemy themselves.
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