The link between core and S^2

[AchtungAffen [ANF]]

Well, I've been reading on other forums about this interesting theory that could clear up a little the two concepts, and seems to establish a relation between them to, concluding that the S^2 engine possibly resides within the boundaries of the core.

It all goes down to the souls each core hosts. All Angels have S^2 engine (although not all angels have a visible core) and an 'angelic' soul.
Adam has a core and an 'angelic' soul
Lillith possibly had a core, an 'angelic' soul, and probably no S^2 (check later)
Eva Series probably had cores. They used Kaworus dummy plug, its reasonable to think Kaworus soul is stuck in them. Kaworus soul is Adam's soul, an 'angelic' soul, and all of them had S^2 engines.
But, the 3 common Evas, 00, 01 and 02, had originally no S^2, and guess what? They also lacked the 'angelic' soul. But Lillith soul is angelic, Rei has Lillith soul, Eva 00 has Rei's soul, but has no S^2!! Well, that could be explained because Lillith being mother of humankind had the 'fruit of wisdom', while the angels had the fruit of life.

So, Angelic soul (no lillithian), that who has 'fruit of life' in it, might be the key to the S^2 engine, probably a property of that soul. The soul resides in the core. The rest history.

What do you think?

Originally posted on: 27-Oct-2003, 18:32 GMT

[UberDirector [ANF]]

What do you think?

I think that maybe there is a giant association flaw at work here.

Originally posted on: 27-Oct-2003, 18:39 GMT

[Sharp-kun [ANF]]

Lillith possibly had a core, an 'angelic' soul, and probably no S^2 (check later)

Lilith had no S2. It goes against the whole "Fruit of Life/Knowlege idea".

Eva Series probably had cores.

They do, we see them.

Eva 00 has Rei's soul, but has no S^2!! Well, that could be explained because Lillith being mother of humankind had the 'fruit of wisdom', while the angels had the fruit of life.

No, its better explained by EVA-00 being the prototype, and 01 being a Test Type, and NERV not wanting to advance too far too soon.

Originally posted on: 27-Oct-2003, 19:17 GMT

[AchtungAffen [ANF]]

No, its better explained by EVA-00 being the prototype, and 01 being a Test Type, and NERV not wanting to advance too far too soon.

At least with the reasoning posted before there's an actual possible reason why Eva 00 has no S^2, instead of faith in what a "prototype" or "test-type" mean in terms of having S^2 engines.

Originally posted on: 27-Oct-2003, 19:22 GMT

[Sharp-kun [ANF]]

At least with the reasoning posted before there's an actual possible reason why Eva 00 has no S^2, instead of faith in what a "prototype" or "test-type" mean in terms of having S^2 engines.

EVA-00 is physically simpler than anything that followed it. Its obviously intended to be as basic as possible.

[ZEROGOUKI (EVA-00 PROTOTYPE)] [/b]

The world's first Evangelion to be developed and built. Most of the tests, data collection and other work related to Eva were performed using this Eva-00, and it bears the strong tone of an experimental and prototype model. Possibly because it was not built on the assumption of actual combat, its shoulder portions and other parts were simple compared to the other Eva from Eva-01 onward, and it did not support various equipment. It was committed to actual combat during the battle against the 5th Angel, but sustained great damage during this same battle. Thereafter it was modified and reintroduced during the battle against the 9th Angel. Its dedicated pilot is Rei Ayanami. Its coloring was yellow, but after modification it was changed to blue. It was destroyed in the battle against the 16th Angel.

EVA-01 wouldn't have an S2 regardless, as its a clone of Lilith. With EVA-02 it was still only the first Production model, EVA-03 had a similar status. With EVA-04, we see NERV begin to experiment with it.

Originally posted on: 27-Oct-2003, 19:34 GMT

[AchtungAffen [ANF]]

Still, basic says nothing more than speculation about the S^2 engine. What I'm saying, with the soul and S^2 link, is that because it had the soul of Rei 001 (EVA-00), it didn't have S^2 originally because of having a soul without the required fruit. It sounds pretty logical, and gives a better explaining than faith in 'basic' as equivalent of not having S^2.

Of course, there could be a problem with the relation of soul and S^2, but until then, the relation proves logical, and explains a pattern that can be seen by everyone: Evas with a soul posessor of fruit of life have originally S^2 engines, the rest don't.

Originally posted on: 27-Oct-2003, 19:42 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Sadamoto's manga version of Introspection made what was happening during Yui-sama & Zeruel's intimate moment much clearer than it was in the anime -- she pulled out his neck and focused her dining there, implying that Zeruel kept his S2 THERE rather than in his core or some such thing. Of course that is the manga rather than the anime, but it's an interpretation that works perfectly well: In the anime, Yui pulls on Zeruel's face (though his face stretches like rubber instead of his neck being pulled outside his body, which seems suspiciously like a botch to me) and narrows her eyes before she digs in, and the last thing we see her eating is his face itself. By all indications, his core was untouched (though I would imagine she got around to actually killing him sooner or later...).

Also: Zerogouki, judging on raw physical traits alone, is no "simpler" than her sisters save for the fact that she has only one eye. The "primitivity" stems more from the make of the armor than the Eva herself, which is an important consideration to make.

And not this "clone" business AGAIN! I don't think the dent in the wall where I've been bashing my head can take much more of this! I'm flying over to Scotland, hunting you down, and showing you sexy pictures of Evangelions until I break you, Sharp-kun!!

Originally posted on: 28-Oct-2003, 00:37 GMT

[NakedEYE666 [ANF]]

And not this "clone" business AGAIN!

Hahaha.... that's something I've said before, if you get what I'm talking about. Uh-huh, hm hm hm, yep, etc.

And I should REALLY stop spamming or I'm gonna get banned. Sorry mods!

Originally posted on: 28-Oct-2003, 00:44 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

And not this "clone" business AGAIN! I don't think the dent in the wall where I've been bashing my head can take much more of this! I'm flying over to Scotland and hunting you down, Sharp-kun!!

Yeah, all the cool kids are saying GSF (or "Genetically Similar Facsimiles")

I always though that Zerogouki was more "Simple". But as Reichu pointed out that could have just been in the equipment and armor, rather than how well they copied Adam.

Originally posted on: 28-Oct-2003, 00:48 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Hahaha.... that's something I've said before, if you get what I'm talking about. Uh-huh, hm hm hm, yep, etc.

Well, actually... Not really.

On a random note (since it relates to that whole Lil/Sho mess), just yesterday I spontaneously came up with a daring new -- well, I hope it's new, at least -- theory on how Shogouki was REALLY created using Lilith. I think it's hella more sensical than everything else I've heard so far, though I suspect certain folks around here would have a nice time bashing it (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE ;;p), so maybe I'll just keep it to myself. Until I've drawn several scary pictures illustrating the whole "How To Make Your Own GSF Using A Giant Marshmallow Woman" procedure from start to finish, anyway.

Originally posted on: 28-Oct-2003, 00:52 GMT

[AchtungAffen [ANF]]

Sadamoto's manga version of Introspection made what was happening during Yui-sama & Zeruel's intimate moment much clearer than it was in the anime -- she pulled out his neck and focused her dining there, implying that Zeruel kept his S2 THERE rather than in his core or some such thing. Of course that is the manga rather than the anime, but it's an interpretation that works perfectly well: In the anime, Yui pulls on Zeruel's face (though his face stretches like rubber instead of his neck being pulled outside his body, which seems suspiciously like a botch to me) and narrows her eyes before she digs in, and the last thing we see her eating is his face itself. By all indications, his core was untouched (though I would imagine she got around to actually killing him sooner or later...).

Its Yoshiyuki 'The Force' Sadamoto again. God save us all.
But about the bussiness, the face thing is just what you could make of only one observation, that single case. But in the general context, the theory of the soul property (fruit) and S^2 seems to match all the observations.

Originally posted on: 28-Oct-2003, 01:01 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I always though that Zerogouki was more "Simple". But as Reichu pointed out that could have just been in the equipment and armor, rather than how well they copied Adam.

Is it really "copying" when you end up with an entity the opposite sex of what you started out with? ::p

In NGE, they basically give ALL of the Evas identical builds -- same height, body proportions*, and everything -- with just the slight armor differences for telling them apart. (Though if you're an oddball like me you don't need the armor to distinguish them. ) If the Evas were, however, "real" and not limited in their representation by the need to animate them frame-by-frame, maybe there would be more reason to find, say, EVA-00 more "primitive" or EVA-02 more "combat-savvy". (Personally, I give the Evas more individualized representations than the anime -- and, simply because of her reputation, I make Zero-chan the shortest, scrawniest one. Kyoko, alternatively, gets to be the beefy badass.)

* The harpies have narrower shoulders and wider hips than their older sisters -- a little-known fact but true! -- but they're such freaks I don't really count them in when discussing the Evas in general terms.

But in the general context, the theory of the soul property (fruit) and S^2 seems to match all the observations.

Well, if you say so... I still don't find any reason to buy it, though.

Originally posted on: 28-Oct-2003, 01:09 GMT

[AchtungAffen [ANF]]

Why not? It seems pretty logical. I'm highly interested in refutations to this theory. If you have any, anything that breaks its logic, please post, I beg. Not only this whole theory is not mine in principle, its the first time I see it, and the first one wich makes positive logic in mantaining a relation between the core and the S^2 engine.

But just check out the evident force of the declaration: "All Angels/Evas who have souls posessing the fruit of life will have S^2 engines".

And when checking on experience:
Who has 'fruit of life' souls?
The angels. Eva Series, Eva 04.

Angels, well its evident. Eva Series: Have Kaworus soul (Kaworu dummy plug certainly would only work with a compatible soul, thus Kaworu), the soul of Adam, possesor of the fruit of life. Eva 04... no positive evidence on this one, but you could guess by all the other previous cases wich comply with the premise, that it has this specifical soul, with the fruit, and because the only available until then was Kaworu, then Kaworu it'll be.

Originally posted on: 28-Oct-2003, 02:18 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

AchtungAffen: I really cannot offer the sort of refutations you're looking for, though I'll throw some comments in all the same.

For one thing, I -still- thoroughly dislike this whole idea of souls being endlessly "copyable". This is one dynamic I think the whole mythos would have been better off never dealving with, because in my opinion it creates tons of inconsistencies and awkward dynamics. The whole pseudotechnological quantum magic just gets a bit overbearing after a certain point -- the Rei-001/EVA-00 and Kyoko/EVA-02 deals are enough of a push as it is. Also on the matter of your proposal that all of the harpies somehow possess the same soul: The whole thought of a male soul -- i.e., Adam -- being put into the body of a female entity -- an Eva -- doesn't work with me on a very basic level.

I also find it a bit unconvincing that Lilim souls automatically have the abstract "Fruit of Knowledge" schtick attached to them, whereas all angelic souls automatically have the miraculous ability to generate a double-helix organ capable of providing unlimited energy within whatever body they are contained by. Then again, I was never a big fan of the FoL/FoK dichotomy to begin with -- as an abstract concept, I can take it, but not to the levels some fans are pushing them. They were mentioned ONCE, and a lot of the other stuff Fuyutsuki was blathering on about in 26' doesn't hold up well to scrutiny.

Additionally, the fact still remains that the souls of Evas 04~13 can only be ASSUMED, which ultimately makes this soul/S2 argument a tad futile (like so many others). And since it's going into that pesky domain of Eva soul/pilot, I might as well stop right now. It made good enough sense with Shinji/Sho and Asuka/Ni, but once people figured out who Zero was, the whole system got totally preposterous far as I'm concerned.

NGE has a great mythos attached to it, though unfortunately some parts of it are vague, cryptic, and perhaps ultimately flawed. Great fodder for endless debate, though sometimes I have to draw the line for myself. ::p (In other words, I stop arguing in purely "canon" terms and go work on my doujinshi instead, where I can merrily endorse the parts of the mythos I love and either skew or totally trash the parts I hate. ::p What great fun.)

Originally posted on: 28-Oct-2003, 02:54 GMT

[Ter'al [ANF]]

Unless hell freezes over and anno decides to extend the Eva series, there will be infinite unanswered questions that will be discussed here again and again but never solved.

Originally posted on: 28-Oct-2003, 07:37 GMT

[AchtungAffen [ANF]]

The thing with this theory is that it handles on a level of canonical definitions and objects. I'm not inventing what the fruits are, and who possess them, its all on the RCB. Man has fruit of knowledge (stated there) same the Angels having the other fruit, and what that means, is not something I take from the air, but is something already stated canonically.

What kind of inconsistencies does this theory create? I'm totally curious about that, because I thought it created none!

About the sex of the evas. That's probably one of the most pernicious preconcepts ever made on this series. Gender is applyable to something that reproducts by joining two individuals of the same kind but with slight differences wich complement between each other. I think the gender concept cannot by any means be applied to Evas or Angels, since from the beginning, we never seen them reproduce. We know that Angels were somehow born from Adam, but we don't know if Adam made them in contact with another being (reproduction by 2 beings) or they just spawned off. So the whole concept of Adam being male, Lillith and Evas female doesn't seem to be very logical.

Additionally, the fact still remains that the souls of Evas 04~13 can only be ASSUMED, which ultimately makes this soul/S2 argument a tad futile (like so many others).

Assumed? Do you mean you doubt there is even a soul on those Evas? Have you ever seen this?

It made good enough sense with Shinji/Sho and Asuka/Ni, but once people figured out who Zero was, the whole system got totally preposterous far as I'm concerned.

I don't understand why the soul of Rei001 being inside Eva 00 doesn't make sense... it makes perfect sense with me, and what I think of the 'theory of synchronization' wich one day I want to post.

I really don't like myths on Eva. Thats one thing I keep seeing specially on spanish forums where they get the craziest affirmations from the air, like the kids having no soul and stuff. I can only feel safe with things that can be percieved, things wich are necessary (they are in one way and cannot be on other) and universal (apply to all cases). If not, its just speculation, but I still like speculation wich follows the rules stated on Eva, not just because Aristotle or Freud said so, cuz that has nothing to do with Eva itself.

Originally posted on: 28-Oct-2003, 15:32 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

About the sex of the evas. That's probably one of the most pernicious preconcepts ever made on this series.

Perhaps so. But...

... I think the gender concept cannot by any means be applied to Evas or Angels, since from the beginning, we never seen them reproduce.

As if the Angels and Evas are ever given a chance?

We know for a fact that, physically, the Evas are virtually identical to humans. They possess the same skeletal setup, the same muscles, the same visceral bodily systems, the same structure to their brains. From a purely objective standpoint, there is very little that actually differs. They are built like biological organisms -- is there any real reason why they would mysteriously lack a biological sex, other than "oh, but we don't see them reproduce"? (So do -I- lack a biological sex, too, until I demonstrate my capacity to propagate? Okay, that's sort of a stretch, but you get the idea.)

Of course, Anno doesn't touch upon any of this one bit in the series, perhaps because it's completely unimportant whether or not the Evas can make babies. Still, just for fun I doctored an image so that it would provide the sort of fun evidence I would have personally liked seeing. No offensive visual material, unless you react badly to anatomical terminology.

We know that Angels were somehow born from Adam, but we don't know if Adam made them in contact with another being (reproduction by 2 beings) or they just spawned off.

Adam is a tricky one... Unlike with Lilith, we can't have a neat theory on the origin of his particular progeny. Some form of "asexual spawning" would probably suffice, though.

So the whole concept of Adam being male, Lillith and Evas female doesn't seem to be very logical.

Maybe in your book... though isn't it odd how Anno chose names for them with very well-known gender associations? The first woman, the first man, and the second woman (made to replace the first) made from the first man. (The angels, alternatively, have long been considered androgynous entities.)

Assumed? Do you mean you doubt there is even a soul on those Evas? Have you ever seen this?

I meant that the IDENTITIES of the souls can only be assumed, not the fact that the Evas had souls. (Though who knows with EVA-04 -- never seen in the anime, and nothing can be said about what level of "functionality" she had reached.)

I don't understand why the soul of Rei001 being inside Eva 00 doesn't make sense...

Because it doesn't quite fit in with EVA-01 and EVA-02 -- it's like it becomes an exception to the precedent set by those two. Plus the copying souls thing is still a giant croc, IMO.

Originally posted on: 28-Oct-2003, 23:31 GMT

[NakedEYE666 [ANF]]

Reichu, I thought you thought 00 had Rei's soul? If not, then who's soul do you think? I personally can't decide on anyone.

Oh and about the non-sexual Eva stuff, I was just going to name some of the characters in the series that we never get to see reproduce, but I guess your example works too...

Originally posted on: 28-Oct-2003, 23:44 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Reichu, I thought you thought 00 had Rei's soul? If not, then who's soul do you think? I personally can't decide on anyone.

I do suck up to the theory -- Anno put in enough evidence for it that I don't have much of a choice. Doesn't mean I have to think it was a really sensical thing for Anno to throw in, though. It's still one of the elements in the series I outright despise.

Originally posted on: 29-Oct-2003, 00:07 GMT

[AchtungAffen [ANF]]

Well, I stand corrected on the gender thing, there said vagina and uterus, unless its one of your pics (you're famous for them). But anyways, ever heard of those guys who feel like they should have been born woman? Ever seen that movie of the guy who ended up in a womans body? That could be the case of Eva Series and Eva 04 having Kaworu's soul. I don't think the soul would affect much an Eva on the gender thing, more considering they were generated before even having souls. Unless they suddenly regenerate a 10 mt member or something...

(did that pic said g-spot?!)

I meant that the IDENTITIES of the souls can only be assumed, not the fact that the Evas had souls. (Though who knows with EVA-04 -- never seen in the anime, and nothing can be said about what level of "functionality" she had reached.)

But following the synch pattern, we know that there has to be some sort of close blood relation between the resident soul and the pilot, like in the Rei case, she pilots herself. There could be nobody except Kaworu as resident soul compatible with a Kaworu dummy plug!

I know, you might come up with Gendou saying "Install the data on units 01 and 02", that could break up everything, unless we consider that we never saw it work on Eva 02, and also we know that Nerv didn't pay much attention to synching with Eva 02 and Kaworu (they knew that it wasn't going to work without changing the core, as we see Fuyu say, but still they tried anyways, for some reason unknown).

Because it doesn't quite fit in with EVA-01 and EVA-02 -- it's like it becomes an exception to the precedent set by those two. Plus the copying souls thing is still a giant croc, IMO.

They copying of souls only acquires sense when you think that miraculously Kyoukos soul was in two different places at the same time (and no quantum mechanics this time). It does make sense Eva 00 and Rei 001, when you think that only a close blood relation permits the compatibility for synching. It had to be on extreme, the mother of Rei as resident soul, or at least Yui (that worked on the series). But Yui wasn't there, and there's evidence enough that there was some sort of Rei thing inside there, because of the invasion it made on Shinji. It was a Rei, but a 'chigau' one, as Shinji said. T'was Ayanami, but t'wasn't Ayanami. There were 2 Reis until then, the only chance, and I mean the only one (and I can argue this bringing up evidence instead of explaining) who could have been in there was at least one Rei soul.

Originally posted on: 29-Oct-2003, 02:12 GMT