Shinji's Sexuality

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Postby MDWigs [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:28 am

Asuka:[/b] Well hello, homo-boy.

Kaworu: I really wish you wouldn't make statements when you lack evidence for them. Oh, Sorry, I suppose the only things you lack are restraint and brains.


Taken from the Evangelion Radio Drama Track (track 2 on the Neon Genesis Evangelion Addition soundtrack) which is the only other "episode" that we see Kaworu. It was written and directed by Anno, and even though it's a parody I think it gives great insight into some of the characters.

In the Drama Track Asuka calls Kaoru gay and Kaworu takes offense to that, telling her to not spread rumours. In other words Kaworu denies it and asks Asuka to stop spreading false stories. I think that is pretty much confirmation of it straight from the "lips" of Anno himself (and it also makes a quip at all those who said he was gay.).

Originally posted on: 06-Nov-2004, 15:13 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:28 am

I pretty much think as a human,he's gay. He has a female soul of Adam.(that sounded a little weird) Gainax plays on this notion by doing a picture of Kaworu peeking at Shinji in a more traditional shower,with a very"happy" smile on his face Image

Originally posted on: 06-Nov-2004, 15:37 GMT

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Postby Kerberos [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:28 am

Headcrab wrote:this is kinda similar to the ongoing debate that Samwise and Frodo from The Lord of the Rings were homosexual, but that isn't the case, since Sam and Frodo were partners and friends. So this kind of debate is not new at all.


That's why I stated that a thread like this wouldn't lead us any further.

But I was wrong. These discussions about sexuality in anime always help us understand more about Japanese people's cultural references about sexuality - since these references are sometimes at least unusual to us westerns - and likewise, sexuality discussion at all (LOTR) help us improve our knowledge about our human nature, reaching levels beyond simplistic labelings such as black-or-white.
We are far more complex than we wish we were.

Originally posted on: 06-Nov-2004, 18:58 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:28 am

Shin-seiki wrote:Here is a thread where we kick around the topic of what Misato is up to in #23, (at least on the last page):
http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=153229

This post, in particular, represents my most definitive formulation of the evidence so far:
http://animenation.net/forums/showp...73&postcount=37


In that textual evidence, the contrast between "afraid of women" and "intimate with people" is glossed over (my emphasis), a distinction, admittedly based on a translation, not the original Japanese text, which gives me the impression that it was not simply sexual intimacy being considered here - we know that Shinji has problems connecting on any sort of emotional level, letting down his barriers even in the relative safety of the domestic. (Not that this is going to be totally unusual for any 14-year-old.)

I have no doubt - as attested by the scene that follows with Pen^2 - that Misato was as much wanting to hold/be held for her own comfort as she was intending to provide a mother's reassuring arms for Shinji's benefit - offering to hold because that was what she wanted and projected that need onto him. While I would expect that Misato's usual expectation in less traumatic circumstances would be that a cuddle would eventually inevitably lead to a session of horizontal salsa, in this instance, I got the impression that the up front motivation was rather more infantile than sexual.

By contrast, in the shower scene, not only does he not withdraw from physical contact despite having equal opportunity to do so, but there may be some other subtext - ISTR reading that the style of colouring as he blushes implies other than simple embarassment; and in conversation with Kaoru, both before and after, he certainly shows a willingness to indulge in the emotional intimacy that he denied Misato.

OTOH, one could take the Jesuitic position that Kaoru wasn't "people".

BTW, I don't think that Shinji was gay - just deeply confused (as all the rest of the series goes to demonstrate), and Kaoru was rather more composed and self-assured - so not needing to try and shore up a fragile self - than any of the people (with the possible exception of Kaji) he had been interacting closely with over the previous months, and provided the appearance at least of stability, as well as being a clean slate.

Originally posted on: 06-Nov-2004, 19:54 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:28 am

In order to salvage what remains of my reputation around these parts, I think that it is important for me to state that I never believed that Shinji was entirely homosexual, nor did I believe that he consciously wished to pursue any physical relationship with Kaworu. If the events depicted in the relevant episodes make anything crystal clear, it is that while Kaworu may have been willing, Shinji was not.

All of that having been said, it was my initial supposition that like a great many young males, Shinji was not entirely sure what it was that he wanted. Many of you have stated that his 'attraction' to Kaworu was was merely because Kaworu was the only one who had offered him what seemed to be unconditional love. This is true, in as far as it goes, but it does not preclude the possiblity that Shinji may have some same-sex tendancies.

To those of you who would choose to point out that Shinji pleasured himself to the sight of the comatose Asuka, I believe that you are ignoring the complex psychological components of that scene. Consider that Asuka had seemed to wield a power over Shinji, which may or may not have been sexual attraction - I prefer to believe that it is not, but I'll go into that later. Consider also that she is the one who tends to come off best when the two of them have a power struggle.

Hence, Shinji's act was, to my mind, more a symbolic one, almost of contempt. To my mind, it is a way in which (in his own mind) he can 'even the score' by performing an humiliating act upon her. I might add that such an act is enshrined in Japanese tradition as a ritual humilitation. Or so I read somewhere anyway, who knows really?

To those who would point to his desparate, words of only a few minutes prior to this event, I would say that it is not the case that he truly meant those words the way that he said them, more that it is a measure of his desperation and mental anguish that he would turn to Asuka, his arch-nemesis, for emotional support. Far from his love interest, I see her role in the story as an antagonist, which is a theory likely to see me challenging Knives for the title of "Least Popular Theory". (J/K Knives Image)

Surely it would be accepted at least that Asuka has never, not even a single time, even attempted to be nice to Shinji? She has humiliated him, berated him, accused him of things which are sometimes true, and other times horrendous distortions of the truth. They are not, to my mind, a romantic pairing in any way, shape or form. It is to be expected that Shinji knows this, deep down, but he has very little in the way of female company of his own age, and it is my contention that this is what drives him to his own occasional caring acts, in regard of Asuka. After all, I have stated that I do not believe that he is homosexual, at least not entirely so. I do believe that he is one of the most confused boys ever to grace the small screen, on the other hand.

In further support of Shnji's lack of genuine interest in Asuka, I would point to the schoolyard sequence from Episode 9. Most of the other students are fawning over Asuka, but Shinji is little more than polite. Shinji is the type of boy who will always be polite and smile, unless he has a specific reason to do otherwise, so nothing should be read into that, in my opinion. Later in the episode it is repeatedly made clear that the kiss notwithstanding, Shinji's antipathy towards Asuka is equal to hers towards him.

As to that kiss, I don't pretend to know what was on his mind at that point, but I don't think that this one incident should be allowed to outweigh the masses of evidence that Shinij simply can't stand Asuka.

I hope that with this post I have taken the first, stumbling steps towards demolishing this myth that Shinji cares for Asuka in any real way. He has expressed feelings of tenderness towards her, but surely it is apparent that he does not truly feel that way, and the things that he has said are purely a product of his confusion and the lack of other appropriate figures upon which to project his desire.

Call me delusional if you like, but to those of you who have, kindly do not insult me, or my sexuality, when you are not even certain what it is. Such things are frowned upon in meatspace, and they should not be permitted in cyberspace in my opinion. Disagree with me, if you must. Call me an idiot, if you will, but please do not resort to offensive and inflamatory remarks about sexuality.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 08:37 GMT

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Postby Crazy Penguin [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:28 am

What about in episode 19 when melty Shinji is imagining Asuka, Rei and Misato giving themselves to him? The theme is also reflected in 26' of End of Evangelion.

Originally posted on: 06-Nov-2004, 21:04 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:28 am

I already voiced my opinions of why I think Shinji's relationship with Kaworu is severely overrated. As far as Shinji and Asuka are concerned: Shin-seiki and others have rather convinced me that there IS something going on between those two, the type of bond that Shinji lacks with anyone else. It is flawed, but it is there.

<<Surely>>

Asuka seems to transcend her normal patterns of behavior when she catches Shinji playing the cello in #15.

<<Hence, Shinji's act was, to my mind, more a symbolic one, almost of contempt. To my mind, it is a way in which (in his own mind) he can 'even the score' by performing an humiliating act upon her. I might add that such an act is enshrined in Japanese tradition as a ritual humilitation. Or so I read somewhere anyway, who knows really?>>

I never thought of it as an act of contempt. (If he had let it loose all over her... maybe. Image ) More like an act of desparation, after which Shinji felt even lowlier and more desparate than he had ever been before. In doing what he did, while it was certainly not fair to Asuka, he was really bringing himself down a few more notches, and he even seems to admit this afterwards.

The Asuka-Shinji deal is one in which you'll find a lot of polarized opinions. I personally think that the best way to approach it is from what Anno was actually intending.

Originally posted on: 06-Nov-2004, 21:16 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:28 am

I'm in overall agreement here.

Soluzar wrote:Consider that Asuka had seemed to wield a power over Shinji, which may or may not have been sexual attraction - I prefer to believe that it is not, but I'll go into that later. Consider also that she is the one who tends to come off best when the two of them have a power struggle.


Yes - I think she was well aware of how easy it was to boss Shinji about, following the lead Misato had given in e.g. the equitable division of household chores. While not (usually) an outright prick-tease, she does use her body as another element of that control.

Soluzar wrote:Hence, Shinji's act was, to my mind, more a symbolic one, almost of contempt.


Or at the very best, an act of pure objectification - she was no more than a centrefold.

Soluzar wrote:To those who would point to his desparate, words of only a few minutes prior to this event, I would say that it is not the case that he truly meant those words the way that he said them, more that it is a measure of his desperation and mental anguish that he would turn to Asuka, his arch-nemesis, for emotional support. Far from his love interest, I see her role in the story as an antagonist, which is a theory likely to see me challenging Knives for the title of "Least Popular Theory". (J/K Knives Image)


Unlike the other women, she, at that point, is safe. She can't answer back, won't know what he does or says. If he were that way minded, he could imagine some idealised version of her to put on a pedestal, knowing that she won't step off it - but that would call for him to be a little more of the romantic than we ever see.


Soluzar wrote:Surely it would be accepted at least that Asuka has never, not even a single time, even attempted to be nice to Shinji? She has humiliated him, berated him, accused him of things which are sometimes true, and other times horrendous distortions of the truth. They are not, to my mind, a romantic pairing in any way, shape or form.


Yes!!

Soluzar wrote:It is to be expected that Shinji knows this, deep down, but he has very little in the way of female company of his own age, and it is my contention that this is what drives him to his own occasional caring acts, in regard of Asuka.


I think he tries to be a decent person (as you put it, "always be polite and smile"), despite his ever negative self-evaluation (4, 25' etc), and performs the obvious easy courtesies, even when they blow up in his face (22).

I would agree that he has worse than no social contact with girls his own age, were it not for the rest of the girls in his school class, the ones who mobbed him when they found out he was the pilot of that giant robot (3) - now that was a thread that was dropped as soon as it was made possible. (I am making the assumption here that he had always been in co-ed schooling prior to his arrival, rather than suddenly being dropped into a mixed setting and thus being in a total state of terror, walking on eggshells around these strange beings with their tantalizing potential for sex *shudder*college days flashback*shudder* which might explain his distant reaction to Asuka at school.)

Soluzar wrote:After all, I have stated that I do not believe that he is homosexual, at least not entirely so. I do believe that he is one of the most confused boys ever to grace the small screen, on the other hand.


Yes.

Soluzar wrote:As to that kiss, I don't pretend to know what was on his mind at that point, but I don't think that this one incident should be allowed to outweigh the masses of evidence that Shinij simply can't stand Asuka.


My guess is bewilderment. And it's abundantly clear that in that case Asuka was just using him as an object - especially while suffocating him at the same time.

Soluzar wrote:I hope that with this post I have taken the first, stumbling steps towards demolishing this myth that Shinji cares for Asuka in any real way. He has expressed feelings of tenderness towards her, but surely it is apparent that he does not truly feel that way, and the things that he has said are purely a product of his confusion and the lack of other appropriate figures upon which to project his desire.


Yep, he cares all right, even to the extent of trying to throttle her when as far as he knows she's the only other person on the planet.

Originally posted on: 06-Nov-2004, 21:23 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:29 am

That's pretty much what I meant in my last post, though I'm not sure if it was clear enough. At first Shinji wants to be caring and tender with Asuka(once they start living together), as much as he can, but when she doesn't return the kindness and is mean to him,he seems only to lust after Asuka not only because of the fact that he finds her attractive. but to prove to her that he is a boy who acts like a boy.Then, in the end,it was all that plus his desperation. Shinji is too subtle to show this, and can only do so while she comatosed. Asuka antagonized him to the point of him wanting to choke her. Kaworu showed Shinji kindness and let him be whom ever he wanted to be. Asuka and Shinji are too different personality-wise to be good for each other. That is what I get out all this.

Originally posted on: 06-Nov-2004, 22:49 GMT

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Postby Aoshi_Shinomori [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:29 am

Magami No ER wrote:Asuka and Shinji are too different personality-wise to be good for each other. That is what I get out all this.


I disagree. I think they may be good for each other. Asuka's strong personality has invoked actions, emotions and character growth in Shinjii that would probably not have occurred without her. His sync ratio and confidence skyrockets after the kiss with Asuka. Asuka on the other hand has depended on this facade of brash confidence to hide her insecurities. Despite the mean treatment, Shinjii is consistently decent to her and cares for her. Eventually, i think she will appreciate this. She has to get over the fact that Shinjii is not the hunk Kajii was and that Shinjii is a better Evangelion pilot than her. Ultimately, only a person that can best her yet be nice to her will end up earning her respect.

Originally posted on: 06-Nov-2004, 23:44 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:29 am

Reichu wrote:I already voiced my opinions of why I think Shinji's relationship with Kaworu is severely overrated. As far as Shinji and Asuka are concerned: Shin-seiki and others have rather convinced me that there IS something going on between those two, the type of bond that Shinji lacks with anyone else. It is flawed, but it is there.

The Asuka-Shinji deal is one in which you'll find a lot of polarized opinions. I personally think that the best way to approach it is from what Anno was actually intending.


Well, I've had my rant now, and I'm pretty much done. It was just something I wanted to do. After all, it's part of the official newbie-acceptance ritual, is it not, to attempt to take on one of the local 'sacred cows'? With, of course, varying degrees of success. I put pretty much my entire take on the subject into that one post, and I'm not the type to make it 'my thing' and keep going on about it just because.

The truth of the matter is, sometimes it can be fun to argue the contrarian side of the argument, for just a little while. Image

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 00:24 GMT

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Postby Ark [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:29 am

I think the best illustration of Shinji's infatuation with Asuka is his watching her while she was on the phone to her "mother". It's not obvious at first but eventually you realise that it's not normal to just stand there listening to a conversation you can't understand.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 01:01 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:29 am

Aoshi_Shinomori wrote:Shinjii is a better Evangelion pilot than her.


Shinji's not a "better pilot"; he just has a more rebellious mother. Image

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 01:01 GMT

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Postby Charred Knight [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:29 am

Reichu wrote:I never thought of it as an act of contempt. (If he had let it loose all over her... maybe. Image ) More like an act of desparation, after which Shinji felt even lowlier and more desparate than he had ever been before. In doing what he did, while it was certainly not fair to Asuka, he was really bringing himself down a few more notches, and he even seems to admit this afterwards.

The Asuka-Shinji deal is one in which you'll find a lot of polarized opinions. I personally think that the best way to approach it is from what Anno was actually intending.


Exactly, if Shinji meant it as contempt he would have been angry and would have masturbated on her. This is a popular fetish in Japan called Bukkake, its apparently pretty common in their live porn. This is the thing that Soluzar was refrencing.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 01:43 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:29 am

Aoshi_Shinomori wrote:I disagree. I think they may be good for each other. Asuka's strong personality has invoked actions, emotions and character growth in Shinjii that would probably not have occurred without her. His sync ratio and confidence skyrockets after the kiss with Asuka. Asuka on the other hand has depended on this facade of brash confidence to hide her insecurities. Despite the mean treatment, Shinjii is consistently decent to her and cares for her. Eventually, i think she will appreciate this. She has to get over the fact that Shinjii is not the hunk Kajii was and that Shinjii is a better Evangelion pilot than her. Ultimately, only a person that can best her yet be nice to her will end up earning her respect.

Asuka has also brought out the worst in Shinji. His charater growth to me changed more once he had a true home and friends, not when someone gave him a meaningless(to Asuka)kiss, although it gave him a little more confidence. If they somehow work out their differences and were settled into a relationship,(or no other girl will take him due to the fact that his first decision caused the apocalypse) I still forsee much arguing and other such problems. All of what you said may have been true throughout the series, but rewatching EoE, specificly the table and choking seen, has made me realize how their relationship has turned out for the worst. In real life, I have seen how such poler personalities have ended in tradgey. But then again, they're just cartoons,right? I know they have such incredibly real personalities and are in an amazing story, but sometimes I need to remind myself this. Image

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 01:53 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:29 am

Charred Knight wrote:Exactly, if Shinji meant it as contempt he would have been angry and would have masturbated on her. This is a popular fetish in Japan called Bukkake, its apparently pretty common in their live porn. This is the thing that Soluzar was refrencing.


I guess you are both right, but I still think that as Tines-san has said, that it was an act of objectification, if not actual contempt.

Mr. Tines wrote:Or at the very best, an act of pure objectification - she was no more than a centrefold.


You certainly don't do that to anyone you like... Not without permission, anyway. Image

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 02:13 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:29 am

Soluzar wrote:I guess you are both right, but I still think that as Tines-san has said, that it was an act of objectification, if not actual contempt.


I just can't see it as contempt... as I mentioned earlier.

You certainly don't do that to anyone you like... Not without permission, anyway. Image


If you're as fux0red up as Shinji is by the time EoE rolls around, you just might! Image

Anyway, if we're going to continue analyzing poor Shinji-kun, here's a scene I want to throw at everyone just for kicks.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

This is in #26', right after the famous "third eye" scene, after Shinji sees the school of CG Rei swimming around inside GNR. I've known about it for a while, but I've never been too sure what to make of it. Image;

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 02:42 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:29 am

That's one of the other examples of visually equating Shinji with Rei that I refered to in the Commentary thread.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 02:47 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:29 am

Okay, it's time to shoot down the newbies with the big gun. HERE[/u] is a thread where it is quite thoroughly demonstrated that Shinji and Asuka are an item.

Mr. Tines & Soluzar: you are both missing the whole point of the Shinji/Asuka relationship. The reason she treats him so harshly is because he's wont respond to the obvious signals she's been sending him. She feels that he's rejected her. The reason he doesn't respond is because he's so socially inept he doesn't recognize them for what they are. He doesn't realize that she returns his affections.

I had to watch it 2 or 3 times to figure out what was going on, but when I showed it to my brother in-law, he figured it out instantly. The very next time after ep. 15 that they showed Asuka bitching about Shinji he said, "She's actually angry because he wouldn't kiss her."

Remember also, their relationship is the most important element in the entire show: it's her rejection of him while their minds are linked that causes Shinji to say, "Let them all die!", triggering third impact.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 02:50 GMT

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Postby tbozfan [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:29 am

You all fail to realize that Shinji being attracted to Asuka or Rei does not eliminate his chances of being attracted to Kaworu. Evangelion explores every part of the human, including bisexuality.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 02:55 GMT


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