Shinji's Sexuality

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:33 am

Soluzar wrote:I doubt they'd ever get past the issues that they have. I'm no longer arguing that they don't have a mutual attraction, but they certainly have no idea about healthy ways of showing that. Plus, Asuka is so sexualised of a character, and at such a young age, whereas Shinji is scared to death of emotional contact, let alone physical. I think that they are doomed to break each others hearts in a spectacular way, myself.
Do you really think that Asuka (or, for that matter, anyone else who prospectively manages to 'come back' out of the LCL) is entirely the same person she was before Third Impact? To put it another way, wouldn't you imagine that having your mind, and indeed your soul, merged with everyone else in the world might qualify as a life-changing event, or that when Rei talks about "Hope; the hope that people might be able to understand one another", that might have some relevance to this?...

Originally posted on: 11-Nov-2004, 22:09 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:33 am

Still, Scott, didn't seem to do Shinji much good...

Image

Image

Originally posted on: 11-Nov-2004, 22:41 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:34 am

Shin-seiki wrote:Do you really think that Asuka (or, for that matter, anyone else who prospectively manages to 'come back' out of the LCL) is entirely the same person she was before Third Impact? To put it another way, wouldn't you imagine that having your mind, and indeed your soul, merged with everyone else in the world might qualify as a life-changing event, or that when Rei talks about "Hope; the hope that people might be able to understand one another", that might have some relevance to this?...


Maybe. I can see what you are suggesting. I don't deny that there is a good chance that they care for each other, and I do think that there is every chance that they will embark upon a romantic relationship. Many people in this thread have comvinced me that this is of a high order of probability.

All I ask, is that you remember the Hedgehog's Dilemma. Sometimes there can be too people who care about each other so much. There's so much love there, and yet they can't help but hurt each other. Don't tell me that you've never seen that.

Originally posted on: 11-Nov-2004, 22:43 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:34 am

Well, if the Cardass Drama Card explanation is to be taken seriously, the second time Shinji was just making sure that that was really her, and that he was really back in the real world, etc... I dunno why he couldn't have just pinched himself or something... Image

Originally posted on: 11-Nov-2004, 22:49 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:34 am

Shin-seiki wrote:Well, if the Cardass Drama Card explanation is to be taken seriously, the second time Shinji was just making sure that that was really her, and that he was really back in the real world, etc... I dunno why he couldn't have just pinched himself or something... Image


Yeah, every time I hear the Cardass bit regurgitated, I do the eye-rolling bit, too. I don't care if the cards are official; I'm sure there is an explanation that doesn't sound like it was pulled out of somebody's rectum at great haste. Granted, if you have one, I'd be happy to hear it.

Soluzar, with regard to the almighty Hedgehog's Dilemma... I think part of the challenge ahead of Shinji is to see whether or not he can overcome this. I imagine after being as close with all life on Earth (including Asuka) as he's been, he doesn't have much left to fear. Image

Originally posted on: 11-Nov-2004, 22:57 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:34 am

Reichu wrote:Yeah, every time I hear the Cardass bit regurgitated, I do the eye-rolling bit, too. I don't care if the cards are official; I'm sure there is an explanation that doesn't sound like it was pulled out of somebody's rectum at great haste. Granted, if you have one, I'd be happy to hear it.

Soluzar, with regard to the almighty Hedgehog's Dilemma... I think part of the challenge ahead of Shinji is to see whether or not he can overcome this. I imagine after being as close with all life on Earth (including Asuka) as he's been, he doesn't have much left to fear. Image


Unless she doesn't measure up to all those thousands of other women that he blended souls with. Not everyone in the wordl is a egomaniac like Asuka.
It just think that Asuka's way of showing tenderness a bit twisted. First, she wants it. Then when she gets offered it, she disdains it. Then, she makes a move on the guy which seems to usually come off as hostilty. Then she expects him to be able to see through that hostity and make his move.

A somewhat less fraught relationship is what I'd be looking for, myself.

Originally posted on: 11-Nov-2004, 23:26 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:34 am

Shin-seiki wrote:Well, if the Cardass Drama Card explanation is to be taken seriously, the second time Shinji was just making sure that that was really her, and that he was really back in the real world, etc... I dunno why he couldn't have just pinched himself or something... Image


Aren't you setting up a straw man there; stating the arguement as weakly as possible? I thought the idea was that he was trying to provoke a negative reaction because he wouldn't believe he was back in reality until he suffered rejection.

Reichu wrote:Yeah, every time I hear the Cardass bit regurgitated, I do the eye-rolling bit, too. I don't care if the cards are official; I'm sure there is an explanation that doesn't sound like it was pulled out of somebody's rectum at great haste. Granted, if you have one, I'd be happy to hear it.


That is a good point. Those cards have been demonstrated to be unreliable. We know the card that Brendan uses to prove that Shinji chooses instrumentality in the TV ending is wrong, and I, at least, am convinced that the card that Wigs uses to prove that Gendo is excluded from instrumentality in the movie is wrong. So perhaps this card is wrong too. However, as it is still the best explanation I've heard, I will except it until something convincingly better comes along.

Originally posted on: 12-Nov-2004, 00:36 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:34 am

Soluzar wrote:A somewhat less fraught relationship is what I'd be looking for, myself.


Arguably, you aren't the total, complete, utterly miserable little ****up that Shinji is. Image Shinji could have had anything he wanted. I bet if he wanted to spend the rest of his life with Kaworu-kun, Rei would have made it so. (Heck, they probably could have put Kaworu into a correctly-gendered -- for the soul, I mean, but Shinji probably would have dug Kaworu just as much if he were a chick -- body while they were at it. He wouldn't even need to change his name.) Or he could have gotten any of the billion+ chicks he'd been in a massive soul-orgy with. But, for whatever reason (Anno, maybe? Image ), the red-headed harridan is the only one Shinji wants.

Originally posted on: 12-Nov-2004, 04:47 GMT

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Postby Aoshi_Shinomori [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:34 am

Soluzar wrote:Unless she doesn't measure up to all those thousands of other women that he blended souls with. Not everyone in the wordl is a egomaniac like Asuka.
It just think that Asuka's way of showing tenderness a bit twisted. First, she wants it. Then when she gets offered it, she disdains it. Then, she makes a move on the guy which seems to usually come off as hostilty. Then she expects him to be able to see through that hostity and make his move.

A somewhat less fraught relationship is what I'd be looking for, myself.


Heh, heh. When I look back to the days I was dating 14yr old girls I can see many similarities. First they want you, then they don't, then they want you again. They expect you to understand their innermost thoughts/feelings even though their outward behaviour would indicate the exact opposite of what they are thinking.

Hey wait, I don't think that stops when they get older...
Image

Originally posted on: 12-Nov-2004, 04:56 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:34 am

Aoshi_Shinomori wrote:Heh, heh. When I look back to the days I was dating 14yr old girls I can see many similarities. First they want you, then they don't, then they want you again. They expect you to understand their innermost thoughts/feelings even though their outward behaviour would indicate the exact opposite of what they are thinking.


Did anyone ever hear me say that Asuka is not a distressingly accurate portrayal of a certain type of teenage girl? I have to think back quite a long way to my own schooldays, but there were definitely girls like that out there. The ones that any lad with half an ounce of sense avoided like the plague.

Aoshi_Shinomori wrote:Hey wait, I don't think that stops when they get older... Image


The ones who are worth it were never like that to begin with...

Originally posted on: 12-Nov-2004, 07:52 GMT

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Postby Aoshi_Shinomori [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:34 am

Soluzar wrote:Did anyone ever hear me say that Asuka is not a distressingly accurate portrayal of a certain type of teenage girl? I have to think back quite a long way to my own schooldays, but there were definitely girls like that out there. The ones that any lad with half an ounce of sense avoided like the plague.


The ones who are worth it were never like that to begin with...


Ah, well... I guess I didn't always have an ounce of sense back then. But there were also those girls who just wanted you without reservation, but you just weren't attracted to.

But, even the girls who are "worth it" often have this "you should have known what I wanted (meant)" mentality once in a while. Not realizing that men are usually a little more straightforward and don't catch on unless it is staring them in the face.

Originally posted on: 12-Nov-2004, 20:04 GMT

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Postby Goldarmy [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:34 am

First to honor main subject of the thread.

The only reason we didn't see any yaoi scenes on episode 24 was because Kaoru not pushing it any further. I agree that what he presented to Shinji was unconditional love which surpasses flesh. From beginning of series to the EoE Shinji attraction to girls continiued, but Shinji's main ambition is to be loved and be safe; if he shall find it in the arms of a boy then so be it.

For Great Naked Rei Shinji was running away from facing with Ayanami, after all he saw her death, then he learned she was and is an angel-human hybrid(Goldarmy regards the notion that all Rei's souls are of Lillith as absolute crap) and that human part was of her mother, then he witnessed the death of a hundred Rei's, then later he saw the mostly digested Unit-02, then he saw Giant Rei and naturally freaked. Seeing Kaoru after this reminded me those cheap horror flicks where you wake up from nightmare into yet another dream or nightmare then see a familiar yet deceased person.

I doubt Shinji ever saw Misato as a mother. She was an cheery yet irresponsible babysitter. I also don't think the fact that Misato is a woman -and a beatiful one at that- ever escaped from Shinji's mind. Event at the hospital room suggests that his morality isn't that strong to fend off the advance of a mature woman. He retreated from Misato because he was angry, some of that anger was pointed to Misato and he thought she was actually trying to make herself feel better, and she was.

thewayneiac wrote:Mr. Tines & Soluzar: you are both missing the whole point of the Shinji/Asuka relationship. The reason she treats him so harshly is because he's wont respond to the obvious signals she's been sending him. She feels that he's rejected her. The reason he doesn't respond is because he's so socially inept he doesn't recognize them for what they are. He doesn't realize that she returns his affections.


First I want to quote Captain Kennit:
"If you penned them together long enough they will breed. That I learned from my goats and pigeons."

I read at somewhere Shinji's age was described as "...no longer a child yet not an adult either; lost somewhere in between". In my opinion this fits Asuka better than it does Shinji. Shinji had an unenviable childhood but Asuka's childhood had ended at that asylum long ago. She transformed into the Asuka we know in the series. Strong, beatiful, independent, genius with a college degree, skilled pilot of Eva. Not a doll, certainly not a doll.

All her actions was to ensure or portray her independence and superiority. Part of her flirts with Kaji was to prove herself that she was a woman. The other pilots were rivals first in her eyes. Her toying with Shinji was just trying to exert her sexuality on him, and her harsh treatment came due to his non-responsiveness to such a wonderful beauty.

Charred Knight wrote:I have termed this the Rumiko Takahashi Romance, due to the fact that she has used it in all 4 of her main manga series. Ken Akamatsu also uses it since he based his writing style off hers. The principle is that you put two people who love each other but can't express their feelings very well, they will then show their love in a variety of ways. Insulting a person to show love is not only found in EVA, but Ranma, and Love Hina as well, though Akane, and Naru are a lot nicer than Asuka.


I guess Charred didn't bother to look at my 'Naming the She-devil' thread let alone vote Image. What was Takahasi-san's fourth work beside Ranma, InuYasha and Urusei Yatsura? I say Asuka can express her feelings very well and very loudly. The way she behaved in front of Kaji is the way she will behave to the man she wants. Asuka's bossy and obnoxius nature is better and more honest than Akane's selfish selflessness and self-righteousness. I have to read Love Hina manga and anime to re-evaluate the uselessness level of Naru.

Aoshi_Shinomori wrote:Asuka on the other hand has depended on this facade of brash confidence to hide her insecurities.


I disagree, while beneath her colorful and brash appearance lies hollowness insecurity isn't found to be there. Actually not having a single doubt gave a great strength to her shell. When she was forced to confront her hollowness and begin her journey to self-destruction, there wasn't much time for insecurity.

Aoshi_Shinomori wrote:Despite the mean treatment, Shinjii is consistently decent to her and cares for her. Eventually, i think she will appreciate this.


Even she could appreciate the value of a devoted slave that worships and adores her.

Aoshi_Shinomori wrote:She has to get over the fact that Shinjii is not the hunk Kajii was and that Shinjii is a better Evangelion pilot than her.


Sure and Gendo has to stop acting like a jerk and act like a father. And Misato has to stop drinking. And Rei has to interact with more people. And Ranma has to think before he opens his big mouth. And Genma has to use his brains. And...

Aoshi_Shinomori wrote:Ultimately, only a person that can best her yet be nice to her will end up earning her respect.


No. At best he will just gain a rival that hates him, or push her into suicidal path at worst.

Ark wrote:I think the best illustration of Shinji's infatuation with Asuka is his watching her while she was on the phone to her "mother". It's not obvious at first but eventually you realise that it's not normal to just stand there listening to a conversation you can't understand.


As Mr Tines said this is more of envy, result of Shinji's longing for love and connection.

Soluzar wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Shin-seiki Mister Tines, since you fairly new here, I wonder if you're familiar with the rumor (which MDWigs seems find quite credible) that, over the course of doing NGE, Mr. Anno fell hard for Yuko Miramura, Asuka's VA, and that she essentially told him to get lost, and that supposedly we see his residual hard feelings played out in EoE (note that the Shinji/Asuka relationship scarcely even comes up in EoTV). It's hard to not read something into the fact that Shinji, who is Anno's stand-in for the psychological 'issues' in NGE, gets to strangle Asuka, not once, but twice, before it's all over.
Just thought I'd throw that out, since we're on the subject...


OK. That's me defeated. Any of the things that can be pointed to in EoE as evidence for the Asuka-Shinji relationship can be essentially attributed to this rumor, and that's just taken some of the best bits of my theory away. Sure, it might be based upon the forbidden fruit of Authorial Intent, but I'm inclined to believe it anyway.


I fail to see how you are defeated, I haven't seen any new hard evidence in this thread to make Asuka Shinji romance any solider. If the rumour about Anno is true then there won't any progress in this matter.

Mr Tines wrote:I did say a chance of a fresh start. But actually, on reflection, I think I can go back to the stronger assertion I'd made before - circumstances had changed enough for her to definitely have been on an upward path, had events permitted.


Mr Tines I think the real moment Asuka finally hit the bottom was the very end of EoE.

Reichu wrote:Yeah, every time I hear the Cardass bit regurgitated, I do the eye-rolling bit, too. I don't care if the cards are official; I'm sure there is an explanation that doesn't sound like it was pulled out of somebody's rectum at great haste. Granted, if you have one, I'd be happy to hear it.


What are these cards and when they were published?

To further taint this topic here is the link to the first and in my opinion best shoujo-ai story in EVA genre. Hope you all like it Image.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/314940/1/

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 08:04 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:34 am

Goldarmy wrote:I fail to see how you are defeated, I haven't seen any new hard evidence in this thread to make Asuka Shinji romance any solider. If the rumour about Anno is true then there won't any progress in this matter.


The reason that I admit defeat is that my case for Shinji and Asuka not being a couple is partially based upon certain well-known occurrences in EoE. To a certain degree, some of these occurrences can be explained by the rumour about Anno, and other than that, I think that the other posters in this thread have thoroughly demolished my other points.

My revised beliefs are as follows: While I am prepared to concede that there is some degree of attraction between Shinji and Asuka, I still find it very hard to believe that they could ever make a functional couple. As to the matter of Shinji's sexuality, I hold to the opinion that he would have been willing to form a relationship with Kaworu, but I am forced to concede that he exhibits sufficient signs of hetrosexuality to make that attraction more about Kaworu's soul, than the body in which it were contained.

No doubt, if Shinji had his fondest wish, it would be Kaworu's soul, in Asuka's body!
Image

EDIT: 16/11/04 - Since Goldarmy has taken me seriously, as belated as this might be, I would just like to add to this post that the smiley was intended to indicate that I was joking! Certainly I don't see that as a serious possibility. Just wanted to clear that up, should anyone read this post again.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 08:27 GMT

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Postby Goldarmy [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:34 am

Soluzar wrote:No doubt, if Shinji had his fondest wish, it would be Kaworu's soul, in Asuka's body!
Image


And how do we know it didn't happen that way?

All we know is that when Shinji woke he found someone that has the appearance and the voice of Asuka.

Come to think of it, it isn't a bad idea Image.

Good work Soluzar.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 08:40 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:35 am

I'm in broad agreement with Goldarmy's evaluation of Shinji/Misato and Shinji/Kaoru.

Goldarmy wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Mr. Tines I did say a chance of a fresh start. But actually, on reflection, I think I can go back to the stronger assertion I'd made before - circumstances had changed enough for her to definitely have been on an upward path, had events permitted.


Mr Tines I think the real moment Asuka finally hit the bottom was the very end of EoE.

That is her tragedy, that when it seemed that she might have turned the corner, she was kicked back down - or, more accurately, maimed, devoured, complemented and then spat out onto the shore, comprehensively defeated. About the only bit of doubt I have is whether she then was simply resigned to death, or actively welcoming it.

As bad or worse than in ep#24? As time goes by, I become increasingly convinced that the reason she was lying in that bathtub was that she was in the process of killing herself by slitting her wrists.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 08:51 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:35 am

Goldarmy wrote:And how do we know it didn't happen that way?

All we know is that when Shinji woke he found someone that has the appearance and the voice of Asuka.

Come to think of it, it isn't a bad idea Image.

Good work Soluzar.


That would be so neat!

I just don't think that Kaoru would utter the line "Kimochi warui" at that point.

Originally posted on: 12-Nov-2004, 21:00 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:35 am

Goldarmy wrote:then he learned she was and is an angel-human hybrid(Goldarmy regards the notion that all Rei's souls are of Lillith as absolute crap)


Oh no, not another one. Image_

I don't recall Shinji learning anything about Rei except that she was a bunch of clones, and, later, becoming increasingly convinced of her connection to his mother. (If none of us NGE-geeks have been able to decipher what the "kami-sama" crap Ritsuko was talking about had to do with the Reis in the tank, I doubt it made any more sense to Shinji.) Shinji doesn't have a damn clue what Lilith is or that Rei has anything to do with her.

then he witnessed the death of a hundred Rei's


"Hundred" seems like a bit much...

then later he saw the mostly digested Unit-02


I think "digested" is the wrong word.

Event at the hospital room suggests that his morality isn't that strong to fend off the advance of a mature woman.


Event in the hospital room? Shinji wasn't fending off any woman's advances. He was masturbating to a comatose one.

but Asuka's childhood had ended at that asylum long ago. She transformed into the Asuka we know in the series. Strong, beatiful, independent, genius with a college degree, skilled pilot of Eva. Not a doll, certainly not a doll.

All her actions was to ensure or portray her independence and superiority. Part of her flirts with Kaji was to prove herself that she was a woman.


Asuka's "outstanding" qualities are definitely overrated. As mature as she'd like to think that she is, she is just an immature, insecure little brat. Does she have her reasons for being so? Yeah, but that doesn't make it any less true.

What was Takahasi-san's fourth work beside Ranma, InuYasha and Urusei Yatsura?


Maison Ikkoku.

I say Asuka can express her feelings very well and very loudly.


Express her feelings very well, huh? I don't believe that for a second. In episode #22, we learn that there is a huge dichotomy between how she behaves externally and how she is really feeling. The Asuka we see most of the time is not the "true" Asuka, it is just a Band-aid persona she has created to protect the frail little girl inside.

Even she could appreciate the value of a devoted slave that worships and adores her.


Asuka has far too many negative qualities to make her something worthy of worship. Image

Soluzar wrote:No doubt, if Shinji had his fondest wish, it would be Kaworu's soul, in Asuka's body!


Well, like I said, Shinji could easily have gotten Kaworu involved if Kaworu actually represented his fondest wish. He wasn't; Asuka was.

Oh, Shinji-kun... If only you had slightly different priorities. Image

Image

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 00:58 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:35 am

Mr. Tines wrote:I'm in broad agreement with Goldarmy's evaluation of Shinji/Misato and Shinji/Kaoru.
That Shinji fundamentally relates to Misato as a surrogate mother-figure is a point that is driven home rather insistently in the (pre-3I) Instumentality Sequence in #26' (Sandbox Scene, Shinji's reaction to witnessing the Misato/Kaji boink-fest, etc...)
(snip)
About the only bit of doubt I have is whether she then was simply resigned to death, or actively welcoming it.
This would seem to be an opportune occasion to bring up the other juicy rumor concerning Anno and Yuko Miramura; when the time came to do the voice dub for 'I need you', Miramura-san threw a snit, because she supposedly didn't like Asuka's final line, and refused to perform it as written: "I won't let you kill me, no way!" Anno then suggested that if she didn't like it, she should come up with something herself, and so Miss Miramura responded to that challenge with "Kimochi warui". Supposedly Anno was shocked and taken aback, but let it stand. Thus, Anno didn't write the imfamous final line; she did. MDWigs has suggested that line was perhaps directed more at Anno than it was in character for Asuka. In any case, if Anno had planned on ending with Asuka saying "I won't let you kill me", where does that leave your interpretation that she was defeated and resigned to death? (Also note that in one of the alternate endings, he had Asuka turn up and kick down her grave marker, which doesn't betoken an attitude of resignation either...)
As bad or worse than in ep#24? As time goes by, I become increasingly convinced that the reason she was lying in that bathtub was that she was in the process of killing herself by slitting her wrists.
I think that idea is fairly well established around here. As UberDirector aptly puts it in that thread:
What?!?!?! Did you guys think she had to stay in the hospital for pruned skin from being in the bath too long?


Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 03:00 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:35 am

Shin-seiki wrote:(Also note that in one of the alternate endings, he had Asuka turn up and kick down her grave marker, which doesn't betoken an attitude of resignation either...)


And even though the ending doesn't actually show Asuka do this, we know that it happened anyway, as you pointed out here.

About the Asuka thing... If she was really intent on killing herself, and wasn't just doing the "cry for help" thing that tv33 mentions in the other thread, there are a gazillion easy ways to do so. Image

I guess Shinji was pretty noncommittal about suicide, as well.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 03:07 GMT

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Postby CapsuleCorpJX [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:35 am

Soluzar wrote:EoE could be said to provide some insight into Shinji's preferences. He's not too thrilled to see Giant Naked Rei, but he's ecstatic to see Giant Naked Kaworu. Image


I don't think Shinji is gay.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 03:09 GMT


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