Series ending, movie ending... same? different?

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:50 pm

This is a question of high relevance. Many say that the two endings (TV and movies) are substantially different. While on the series Shinji choses instrumentality, rejects it on the movie. This is based on the following evidence:
1.- The comment for that particular scene (TV) on the Newtype official filmbook.
2.- One of the last dialogues of ep.26 TV:
Shinji: I hate myself.
But, I might be able to love myself.
I might be allowed to stay here.
Yes. I am nothing but I.
I am I. I wish to be I.
[b]I want to stay here!
I can stay here!



"Stay here"... Shinji was in the instrumentalization world, to stay there would be to... stay there, on instrumentalization.

Still, the first evidence is not very reliable, as it comes from an external source, and its validity is yet to be confirmed. And the second one misses a small point "I wish to be I". If instrumentalization was to become a single being with humanity, and if Shinji chose instrumentalization, why would he say that?

So, are the 2 endings the same? Are they different? Its very important, just to point out one thing: affirming that the endings are the same, would be almost like saying Lilliths soul is not Rei's, and the RCB was wrong on that too.

Originally posted on: 01-Oct-2003, 01:23 GMT

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Postby saiyajin prince [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:50 pm

Well if he wishes to be himself, he knew that that wouldn't be possible in instrumentality and also, when he said he wished to "stay here" maybe he's talking about the real world. He wishes to stay "here" in the real world while everyone else was complemented.

Originally posted on: 01-Oct-2003, 01:32 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:50 pm

To me it would seem highly counter-intuitive, that Anno would make the ending of the series have a meaning completely contrary to that of the movie, especially when you consider that the movie ending was already in existence (Ep 25 as a more or less finished script, and Ep26 as a rough outline) before circumstances forced Anno to go back to the drawing board and come up with the 'new' TV ending. Why would he turn the whole story on it's head? I've always found MDWigs take on the subject very persuasive, but even before I read that argument, I always thought that the point of the TV ending was that Shinji decides not to run away anymore, and that his life in the real world could have meaning aside from his role as an EVA pilot...

Originally posted on: 01-Oct-2003, 02:58 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:50 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:would be almost like saying Lilliths soul is not Rei's, and the RCB was wrong on that too.



::raises finger to speak:: Ermmmm.... Forget it....

One thing I finally noticed that indicates, to me, that the two endings are incongruous (at least, ultimately): Gendou and Yui appear together at the end of 26, the very image of his wish to be reunited with his love (at least, in her more "accessible" form Image). In the movie, Gendou obviously does not get his wish granted -- whatever happens to him in the end, Yui's journey to infinity is one that she will make alone.

Originally posted on: 01-Oct-2003, 03:09 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:50 pm

Well, that seems like a good argument, but what about Shinjis quote?

What I meant about Lillith's soul and Rei, is that if both endings are the 'same', if you could say that, then the RCB would be wrong again, because on episode 25 you get to hear Rei saying:

Rei: No. you are a human whose false soul was made by a
man named Ikari Gendou.



If she has a man made soul, that doesn't seem to fit the Lillith theory at all.

Originally posted on: 01-Oct-2003, 16:01 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:51 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:Well, that seems like a good argument, but what about Shinjis quote?

What I meant about Lillith's soul and Rei, is that if both endings are the 'same', if you could say that, then the RCB would be wrong again, because on episode 25 you get to hear Rei saying:



If she has a man made soul, that doesn't seem to fit the Lillith theory at all.

I think that it's pretty radical to throw out Rei's soul = Lilith on the basis of that one quote, which is out of context anyway. Here it is in context:


Rei: Why are all of these me?

Rei: Because others call us Ayanami Rei.

Rei: Why do you have a false mind and a false body?

Rei: Not false, for I am I.

Rei: No. you are a human whose false soul was made by a
man named Ikari Gendou.
You are a false object which is pretending to be a human.
Look, you have a dark, invisible, and unintelligible mind
within you, where the true you exists.


and:

Rei: But, there's someone else who is the true you.

Rei: You don't know her.

Rei: Because you don't want to see that, you are trying to run away.

Because of fear.

Rei: Because she might not have a human shape.
Because the present me might disappear.

This seems to me confirm, not contradict, the idea that Rei's soul is Lilith...

Originally posted on: 01-Oct-2003, 16:12 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:51 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:Well, that seems like a good argument, but what about Shinjis quote?



:???: Eh? What about it? How does that change the fact that Yui and Gendou appear together in the world of instrumentality in the TV ending?

About the Rei business -- also worth keeping in mind that a lot of Japanese can be translated more than one way. In NGE's case, the way you translate something can sometimes make all the difference (f'rinstance, Keel Lorenz is just as easily saying that Shogouki is Lilith's offspring, rather than a full genetic clone as per bochan_bird's translation, which makes a hella lot more sense to me!!!). I can always check Rei's line in 26 to see if it's one of these "How The Hell Are We Supposed To Translate This?!?!" statements, as well...

Shin-seiki: See, the true Rei is Lilith. She never should have disowned her original body! Never!!! Image

Originally posted on: 01-Oct-2003, 16:23 GMT

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Postby saiyajin prince [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:51 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:Well, that seems like a good argument, but what about Shinjis quote?

What I meant about Lillith's soul and Rei, is that if both endings are the 'same', if you could say that, then the RCB would be wrong again, because on episode 25 you get to hear Rei saying:



If she has a man made soul, that doesn't seem to fit the Lillith theory at all.




Her soul is fake!! It's just Lillith. Prob it meant that it was Gendou who put Lillith's soul in her.

Originally posted on: 01-Oct-2003, 16:29 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:51 pm

saiyajin prince wrote:Her soul is fake!! It's just Lillith. Prob it meant that it was Gendou who put Lillith's soul in her.



Which still wouldn't make much sense, since Lilith's soul evidently got in there as a result of a mysterious quirk in Operation "Yui, Be a Good Girl and Get Out of the Eva and Into This Nice Clone of Your Lilim Body We've Prepared For You". Gendou obviously was interested in displacing Yui's soul back into a Lilim body; how Lilith got there instead is something completely beyond me.

Sharp-kun: This "moulding" that you speak of comes down to the complication mind/soul distinction, which I may have mentioned before... There was a nice thread about this at AnimeBoards which MDWigs and I were participating in. Ultimately the idea we came up with was that the soul is the basic unit that never changes and the mind is what is developed as a consequence of experiencing life (personality as a result of "environmental factors", memories, etc.). It's not a distinction made clearly in canon, but I think it's very useful regardless.

Originally posted on: 01-Oct-2003, 16:34 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:51 pm

This thread is getting a bit off topic with this whole Rei-Lilith thing. That Rei's soul is that of Lilith is, as far as I'm concerned, fact not theory. Aside from this:
---
(Rei ascends to Lilith)

Rei:
I'm home...

Lilith (Screen text): Welcome back.

(Rei is absorbed into Lilith... Lilith's heart starts beating... Her legs reform and she descends from the cross... The mask of SEELE falls off and Lillith takes Rei's form)
---
which is pretty cut and dry, if you ask me, there is also:
---
Shigeru:
The Anti-AT Field from Lilith... it's expanding further! It's materializing!

(The earth's surface under the Black Moon turns white spreading outwards and Lilith-Rei emerges, cupping the Black Moon in her hands)
---
The Anti-A.T.Field manifests itself as Rei appearing to everyone as they go sploosh.

Basically, the notion that the RCB could somehow be wrong about Lilith-Rei makes complete nonsense of the whole movie...

Originally posted on: 01-Oct-2003, 17:42 GMT

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Postby Goldarmy [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:51 pm

(Rei ascends to Lilith)

Rei:
I'm home...

Lilith (Screen text): Welcome back.

(Rei is absorbed into Lilith... Lilith's heart starts beating... Her legs reform and she descends from the cross... The mask of SEELE falls off and Lillith takes Rei's form)



There is one small factor forgotten here. Rei now carries with her the being called Adam. If you take this into account Rei=Lilith goes back to drawing board.
Shigeru:
The Anti-AT Field from Lilith... it's expanding further! It's materializing!

(The earth's surface under the Black Moon turns white spreading outwards and Lilith-Rei emerges, cupping the Black Moon in her hands)


Lilith regaining her powers could be explained with Adam rather than the hybrid.

The Anti-A.T.Field manifests itself as Rei appearing to everyone as they go sploosh.


We would have seen it as Gendo appeaering to everyone as they go sploosh.

Originally posted on: 01-Oct-2003, 18:56 GMT

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:51 pm

Reichu wrote:One thing I finally noticed that indicates, to me, that the two endings are incongruous (at least, ultimately): Gendou and Yui appear together at the end of 26, the very image of his wish to be reunited with his love (at least, in her more "accessible" form Image). In the movie, Gendou obviously does not get his wish granted -- whatever happens to him in the end, Yui's journey to infinity is one that she will make alone.



I believe that the final "congratulations" -scene was just a sort of image created by Yui, like a departing gift for her son to make him feel a little better after all that he's been through. ("Good for you, you found your self-value at last. I must be going now, try not to strangle girls anymore. Bye!") I'm now shamelessly repeating Wigs's arguments, but that scene is just too surreal to be "real":
1) Gendo's there, though (IMO) he got banned from instrumentality by Rei
2) Kaji's there (not that I'm completely against him coming back, but it is helluva unlikely)
3) PenPen's there too. I don't think instrumentality affects to animals -o-;

And like Shin-Seiki said, I see no reason why Anno would have wanted to change the meaning of the original ending.

Originally posted on: 02-Oct-2003, 08:09 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:51 pm

Goldarmy wrote:We would have seen it as Gendo appeaering to everyone as they go sploosh.



Mwa hah hah, that reminds me of one time Shin-seiki exhibited an almost Reichu-esque level of mischievousness:

Shin-seiki wrote:Hey, look at it this way, if everything had gone the way Gendo had planned, it could have been a whole lot worse:
That would give Shinji (and Maya) a real reason to freak out...



Dr. Nick: Well, I suppose that could be the case... Yui-sama giving her little boy hallucinations as gifts? She's always been a little on the weird side, so I suppose it's not completely beyond her. Image But would it mean that Yui hasn't disowned her husband after all, despite controlling a slobbering metaphysical projection of her Evangelion self (that's how I see it, anyway) and viciously biting his nut off?

Originally posted on: 02-Oct-2003, 08:21 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:51 pm

Reichu wrote:Mwa hah hah, that reminds me of one time Shin-seiki exhibited an almost Reichu-esque level of mischievousness:



Out of curiosity, how long did it take you to draw that Gendou face, Shin'?

Um, I only posted that, I didn't create it. It's just a bit of fan-art I found on an EVA-related site out of Thailand, of all places. There's a few cool pics there; I especially liked this one.

Originally posted on: 02-Oct-2003, 02:58 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:51 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:Um, I only posted that, I didn't create it.



Oh... Heh-heh, whoopsie. ::p

Thanks for the link! That comic was especially amusing, even though I didn't understand a word of it. That one kid was eerily Calvin-like with his reaction to episode 19 -- very funny. Though the Lilith (with the mask acting as her real face?!? o_O; ) and cycloptic Sachiel were a wee bit scary.

Originally posted on: 02-Oct-2003, 03:20 GMT

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Postby Incisivis [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:51 pm

Gonna edit my post now, whee...

http://www.evaotaku.com/html/evafaq2.html#question24

This is the best argument I've read from the other side of the fence: that the TV and movie ending are not alike.

I'm kind of leaning in favor of them being different, but that's just because I like that it demonstrates Shinji can make two very different choices, a potentially cowardly one (staying in Complementation), and a potentially defiant/foolhardy one (returning to reality).

Have to admit, I haven't given the idea much thought beyond that. It's hard to pinpoint how the TV ending could lead Shinji to decide to stay in Complementation, because the whole point of it seems to be to inform Shinji that escaping is painful, and that he has the capacity to change if he decides to. It's a message rather too individualistic to promote not returning to reality.....

:look:


Shin-seiki wrote:Hey, look at it this way, if everything had gone the way Gendo had planned, it could have been a whole lot worse:
That would give Shinji (and Maya) a real reason to freak out...




THAT is NOT right! Image

Just what I need at 8:00 am...

Originally posted on: 02-Oct-2003, 13:02 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:52 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:I think that it's pretty radical to throw out Rei's soul = Lilith on the basis of that one quote, which is out of context anyway. Here it is in context:


Rei: Why are all of these me?

Rei: Because others call us Ayanami Rei.

Rei: Why do you have a false mind and a false body?

Rei: Not false, for I am I.

Rei: No. you are a human whose false soul was made by a
man named Ikari Gendou.
You are a false object which is pretending to be a human.
Look, you have a dark, invisible, and unintelligible mind
within you, where the true you exists.


and:

Rei: But, there's someone else who is the true you.

Rei: You don't know her.

Rei: Because you don't want to see that, you are trying to run away.

Because of fear.

Rei: Because she might not have a human shape.
Because the present me might disappear.

This seems to me confirm, not contradict, the idea that Rei's soul is Lilith...



But that doesn't prove anything definitely. It could also mean Yui instead of Lillith, wich would make better sense with the 'manufactured' soul part.

Shin_seiki wrote:This thread is getting a bit off topic with this whole Rei-Lilith thing. That Rei's soul is that of Lilith is, as far as I'm concerned, fact not theory. Aside from this:
---
(Rei ascends to Lilith)

Rei:
I'm home...

Lilith (Screen text): Welcome back.

(Rei is absorbed into Lilith... Lilith's heart starts beating... Her legs reform and she descends from the cross... The mask of SEELE falls off and Lillith takes Rei's form)
---
which is pretty cut and dry, if you ask me, there is also:
---
Shigeru:
The Anti-AT Field from Lilith... it's expanding further! It's materializing!

(The earth's surface under the Black Moon turns white spreading outwards and Lilith-Rei emerges, cupping the Black Moon in her hands)
---
The Anti-A.T.Field manifests itself as Rei appearing to everyone as they go sploosh.

Basically, the notion that the RCB could somehow be wrong about Lilith-Rei makes complete nonsense of the whole movie...



I still don't see any clear evidence wich supports the RCB case. Perhaps the most solid one is the "tadaima" when Rei enters Lillith, but that, as I've seen before, can also be explained by saying Rei has part of Lillith's body, so that "I'm home" could mean flesh returning to the flesh, rather than soul to the soul.

About the moulding, I think you cannot say Rei's mind is the only moulded thing, because Rei remembered crying, even though she didn't remember the episode of the tears. I think that the distinction between mind and soul isn't that clear after all.

About Yui and Gendou reunited... I don't think I ever seen that 'clearly'.

But here's the situation:
If there's no distinction between the 2 endings, then Reis soul is not Lilliths anymore.
Why can I say there is a difference between endings? WEll, there seemed to be some kind of decision change from the series to the movies. Those changes would be Kaworus more 'starring' appearances (rather than in the series, where he's not more than another Angel), and also Rei's soul, wich in the beginning grew or was manufactured, until the RCB wich says (something not clearly defined by the movie) Lilliths soul is Reis soul.

Originally posted on: 02-Oct-2003, 16:14 GMT

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:52 pm

Incisivis wrote:http://www.evaotaku.com/html/evafaq2.html#question24

This is the best argument I've read from the other side of the fence: that the TV and movie ending are not alike.



Yeah, Brendan's famous main argument. But note this:

Further, the Newtype Filmbook description for the scene states (literally):
"Amidst the many words of congratulations, a faint smile starts at the corners of Shinji's mouth (and spreads across his face).
A happy face -- that is the figure of the Complemented Shinji. This conclusion is also one form, one possibility among many."



The weird part in this is the "complemented Shinji": If he's complemented, how can he be Shinji anymore, since complementation deletes individual souls? "Complemented Shinji" is an impossible concept.

Thus I'm inclined to believe that Shinji's complementation mentioned in that card isn't the same complementation of the whole humanity which SEELE was planning. In Shinji's case it means his "inner complementation": He was a total mess, human garbage as he said himself, but in the end he found his self-worth and was kind of renewed, innerly complemented, whatever. Wait, is innerly even a word?
Argh, MDWigs, get back here soon! Mimicing you is damn hard!

Originally posted on: 02-Oct-2003, 17:15 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:52 pm

Incisivis wrote:Gonna edit my post now, whee...

http://www.evaotaku.com/html/evafaq2.html#question24

This is the best argument I've read from the other side of the fence: that the TV and movie ending are not alike.

I'm kind of leaning in favor of them being different, but that's just because I like that it demonstrates Shinji can make two very different choices, a potentially cowardly one (staying in Complementation), and a potentially defiant/foolhardy one (returning to reality).

Have to admit, I haven't given the idea much thought beyond that. It's hard to pinpoint how the TV ending could lead Shinji to decide to stay in Complementation, because the whole point of it seems to be to inform Shinji that escaping is painful, and that he has the capacity to change if he decides to. It's a message rather too individualistic to promote not returning to reality.....

Brendan's argument is famously weak; dependent as it is on citing an, at best, ambiguous, 'external' source, of debatable canonicity. If you try to argue that the Shinji accepts Complementation from the evidence of Ep26 itself, you're going to lose that argument, because the evidence all points the other way. I'm afraid that MDWigs' argument on the concurrence of the TV and Movie endings pretty much blows Brendan's case out of the water...

edit: Note that I am not arguing that the TV Eps 25-26 and movie Eps 25'-26' are the same; they're not. There are huge and, in some cases, irreconcilable differences between them. Shinji's choice to reject Complementation just isn't one of them...

Originally posted on: 02-Oct-2003, 17:44 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:52 pm

But he rejected it or not?? That's the whole point.

Originally posted on: 02-Oct-2003, 19:59 GMT


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