Series ending, movie ending... same? different?

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:52 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:But he rejected it or not?? That's the whole point.

My short answer: Shinji rejects Complementation in both endings. And Rei's soul is that of Lilith. You seem to be linking these two issues, that is, that the concurrence of the two endings somehow indicates that Rei's soul is not that of Lilith, and I'm afraid I don't follow you there at all. Perhaps you could elaborate on what those two issues have to do with each other...

Originally posted on: 03-Oct-2003, 08:25 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:52 pm

By saying both endings are the same, then the series has a higher relevance in order of information against the RCB, in case of contradiction the series is right, the book wrong. If this is so, then because of what is said on episode 25 about the manufactured soul, Rei having Lilliths own is impossible. And nevermind the rest of the dialogue (the one you posted to counter-argument) because that could also apply for Yui.

Originally posted on: 03-Oct-2003, 08:36 GMT

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:52 pm

Reichu wrote:I suppose that could be the case... Yui-sama giving her little boy hallucinations as gifts? She's always been a little on the weird side, so I suppose it's not completely beyond her. Image



Hey, it's the quality time together that counts, not the money or toys.Image
And remember the last text-screens: "Good-bye to my mother" indicates that the happy-happy-joy-joy-scene isn't going to last forever. And it correlates rather nicely with EoE...

But would it mean that Yui hasn't disowned her husband after all, despite controlling a slobbering metaphysical projection of her Evangelion self (that's how I see it, anyway) and viciously biting his nut off?



I don't think it was Yui who took the bite. Why would she? I see no reason why she would've been that pissed to Gendo. Sure, he treated Shinji like crap and was a mean bastard all around, but Yui knew why he was like that: His intentions were fundamentally good; it was all about love, baby.
If there was someone who wanted to kick Gendo's ***, that would have been Rei: And though she probably banned Gendo from instrumentality, I think that the monster-Shogouki was just a materialization of Gendo's worst fear (Yui actually hating him) and not really controlled by anyone. Same as with everyone else, you see either your greatest love or your worst fear before popping.

And yes, Yui appears to Gendo before the biting-part (along with Kaworu and different versions of Rei). If that was the real Yui showing up (can't be really sure about this "quantum-world" -stuff -o-Image she seemed more pitiful than hateful towards Gendo.
(Once again, I've been formulating a little theory about relating subject "why are there bunch of people inside my head acting like a group of crazy psychologists while at the same time the world is ending outside." More about that later...)

Originally posted on: 03-Oct-2003, 08:43 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:52 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:If this is so, then because of what is said on episode 25 about the manufactured soul, Rei having Lilliths own is impossible.



Ermmm... That would sort of fux0r the entire series up if it were not so. Doubting the word of the Theatrical Programs is virtually akin to heathenism in the NGE fan world!! It's like a Fundamentalist Christian saying that the Bible is full of $#it. Image But, that aside, I do think the series makes it rather clear what Rei really is; do not forget about the Kaworu/Rei, Adam/Lilith parallelism, either.

And remember that this whole "manufactured" bit is just how someone opted to translate that particular segment of dialogue -- you can't take it completely to heart unless you've negated the possibility of alternate intepretations of the original Japanese. If only I had the Japanese scripts for the TV episodes available...

Dr. Nick wrote:Hey, it's the quality time together that counts, not the money or toys.



So spending time in an artificial void in the spinal column of your mom's Evangelion body and having spiritual hallucinations of her is a quality substitute for having good one-on-one parental interaction, eh? Not saying that it isn't, of course. Image

I sort of like the idea that Yui herself took Gendou's nut off. She was sort of akin to a god(dess) at that point -- she was fused with the Lance and inside Lilith, why shouldn't she have at least a little bit of say in how Instrumentality plays itself out?

Yui: Ne, Lilith-sama... Mind if I have a word with my Gen-chan, too?

Lilith
: Yeah, sure, whatever. Have a blast.

[b]Adam
: Don't mind if I join you... I [/b]was in the guy's hand, after all.


So all three of them use Quantum Magic to have a little chat with Gendou... and, for whatever reason, Yui decides to bite his head off. "Assisted suicide by a lover", as Faust once put it? Did she do it because that's what Gendou wanted? Or is there more to Yui than we know (which I'm sure there is)?

Ooo, I like your "little theories"... I can't wait! ^o^

Originally posted on: 02-Oct-2003, 21:03 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:52 pm

The quote reads as follows in Japanese:
"Iie. Anata wa itsuwari no tamashii (wo) Ikari Gendou do yu ningen ni (wo) tsukurareta hito nano yo"

I'm not sure if the second wo is the verb wo, or just an o vowel.

But, as far as I understand, the translation was correct.

Why can I mistrust the RCB? I would be a fanatical to support it if it hadn't show at least one flaw before. So, now I try to double check everything. That's where the Lillith's soul as Rei's case enters.

The series doesn't make clear what Rei soul is. The movie seems to show something not quite clearly (perhaps the decision change I've been talking about before). But according to that ep25 quote, then the soul of Rei cannot be that of Lillith.

So, or the movie ending and the series ending differ to a point where you can call them separate stuff, or you have one single object screaming in your face the truth about Rei's soul, and another error in the RCB.

If you want to mantain the status on Rei's soul, you betta find:
1.- A contradiction between both endings
2.- A counter-evidence that the ep25 quote still is valid for the Lillith case.

Originally posted on: 03-Oct-2003, 15:06 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:53 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:The quote reads as follows in Japanese:
"Iie. Anata wa itsuwari no tamashii (wo) Ikari Gendou do yu ningen ni (wo) tsukurareta hito nano yo"

I'm not sure if the second wo is the verb wo, or just an o vowel.

But, as far as I understand, the translation was correct.

Why can I mistrust the RCB? I would be a fanatical to support it if it hadn't show at least one flaw before. So, now I try to double check everything. That's where the Lillith's soul as Rei's case enters.

The series doesn't make clear what Rei soul is. The movie seems to show something not quite clearly (perhaps the decision change I've been talking about before). But according to that ep25 quote, then the soul of Rei cannot be that of Lillith.

So, or the movie ending and the series ending differ to a point where you can call them separate stuff, or you have one single object screaming in your face the truth about Rei's soul, and another error in the RCB.

If you want to mantain the status on Rei's soul, you betta find:
1.- A contradiction between both endings
2.- A counter-evidence that the ep25 quote still is valid for the Lillith case.

First off, you are hanging your whole argument on a single line, elavating that single line over the mountain of evidence that Rei's soul is that of Lilith. I'm quite perplexed by what you hope to accomplish by attempting to dis-establish the identification of Rei with Lilith, since, as I stated before, the whole series ceases to make any sense if Rei isn't Lilith.
But according to that ep25 quote, then the soul of Rei cannot be that of Lillith.

Sheesh! You are so reading too much into that one line! You need to look at that in its proper context: almost all of eps 25 and 26 is presented in the form of dramatic monologues/dialogues that reflect the internal psychological environment of the characters (principally Shinji, but also Asuka, Rei, and Misato) in the lead up to, and aftermath of, Third Impact. The first half of Ep25, 'The World Ending', focuses in turn on 'The First Character' Shinji, 'The Second Character' Asuka, and 'The Third Character' Rei. In the first section Rei, and later Asuka, appear with Shinji in the roles of devil's advocate, posing harsh questions and questioning his motives. (Of course, they're not literaly there with Shinji; they represent his self-doubt.) Similarly, Rei appears with Asuka in her section. In Rei's section, her various incarnations appear to question her; she is playing devil's advocate to herself. When she tells herself that she has a "false soul made by a man named Gendou Ikari", that line represents her self doubt and self accusation, it in no sense deserves to be elevated to the significance that you are attaching to it, that that one line should take precedence over all the other unambiguous indications that Rei's soul is that of Lilith. Rei herself answers that line with "Not false, for I am I"; she then tells herself that "there's someone else who is the true you", and that 'true' self is, of course, Lilith...

Originally posted on: 03-Oct-2003, 16:28 GMT

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Postby thekillingmantra [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:53 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:The series doesn't make clear what Rei soul is. The movie seems to show something not quite clearly (perhaps the decision change I've been talking about before). But according to that ep25 quote, then the soul of Rei cannot be that of Lillith.


The “soul manufacturing” comment in ep.25 could be in reference to the method of which her soul is artificially re-incarnated from one clone to another following her death, and as such, this may be interpreted as a form of creation. It makes sense given the context of the quote, and it seems just as valid as any other theory or interpretation. Consider this in light of all the other ambiguous clues regarding Rei's soul and I think it makes for a good case.

Originally posted on: 03-Oct-2003, 16:36 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:53 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:First off, you are hanging your whole argument on a single line, elavating that single line over the mountain of evidence that Rei's soul is that of Lilith. I'm quite perplexed by what you hope to accomplish by attempting to dis-establish the identification of Rei with Lilith, since, as I stated before, the whole series ceases to make any sense if Rei isn't Lilith.



Oh, I don't even like the idea of Rei's soul not being Lillith's own, and I'd hope there was a mountain of evidence (wich I have seen not, and I mean absolutely clear evidence) and I'd love it if the series had no meaning if Rei's soul was different, but I don't understand why... after all, to me, t'seems that the series works just fine without Rei having Lillith's soul.
That line is a piece of evidence or controversy that cannot be discarded so easily, as it is the first piece of clear evidence about Rei's soul in the series.

Shin-seiki wrote:When she tells herself that she has a "false soul made by a man named Gendou Ikari", that line represents her self doubt and self accusation, it in no sense deserves to be elevated to the significance that you are attaching to it, that that one line should take precedence over all the other unambiguous indications that Rei's soul is that of Lilith.



And the unambiguous indications are? I don't think I've seen any until, perhaps the movie, and even that piece can be debated into something else.

Shin-seiki wrote:Rei herself answers that line with "Not false, for I am I"; she then tells herself that "there's someone else who is the true you", and that 'true' self is, of course, Lilith...



And that 'true self' could not be Yui?

Originally posted on: 03-Oct-2003, 23:57 GMT

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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:53 pm

I agree with Shin-seiki on this one (as I do on most things -o-Image

If Rei's soul was not that of Liliths the show would not make much sense latter on. Not to mention (as was stated already) the Adam/Lilith-Kaoru/Rei connection.


And as I think was stated before as well, remember when Rei was absorbed into Lilith in EoE? Rei said "I'm home" to witch they showed a shot of Lilith, and a text box that says "Welcome home.". what do you think all of that meant?

I think that one line taken out of context is misleading. Don't forget in the instemantality world, when the characters are spoken to they are told their fears. A good example of this being when Shinji is holding the phone and everyone he knows say they hate him, but in the end Asuka tells him it was all in his head.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2003, 00:43 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:53 pm

I'd appreciate if someone could tell me why the show wouldn't make sense.

On the quote on EOE, it could mean various things. You could say it was because of her soul, but also you could say it was because of her body.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2003, 02:00 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:53 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:I'd appreciate if someone could tell me why the show wouldn't make sense.

On the quote on EOE, it could mean various things. You could say it was because of her soul, but also you could say it was because of her body.



Che, now we're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Image

If you doubt the Theatrical Programs, the forum will devour you alive!! Save yourself while there's still time!!!

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2003, 03:00 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:53 pm

Eh che vo', the glossaries give suspicion since they messed up with the angels subject. Now, better to doublecheck everything... or tell me, would you prefer a comfortable lie rather than a harsh truth?

I'm not arguing just for sophism, I just wanted to see if the Rei has Lillith's soul thing can be saved or not, but please do it with evidence on the arguments, not just "the series would have no meaning", explain bitte.

The quote of EOE is not evidence enough, it doesnt definitely specify Rei having Lillith's soul, can be explained by other ways. As you can see, there's (as far as I'm aware of) no clear mention of Rei having Lillith's soul throughout the series, the DC's and the movie included. The problem is if there's evidence against it. So, can the argument be saved?

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2003, 03:52 GMT

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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:53 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:The problem is if there's evidence against it. So, can the argument be saved?



What evidence is there against it? Besides the one quote you have given?

Then compare that to the mountain of evidence we have given you. This is starting to seem like the OJ Simpson case.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2003, 03:59 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:53 pm

I've given one positive piece of evidence wich positively claims the "Rei having Lillith's soul" statement false.

I've seen nothing like a pile of evidence, and I've seen no 'positive' evidence that the statement is correct, and the quote meaning something else.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2003, 04:08 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:53 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:I've given one positive piece of evidence wich positively claims the "Rei having Lillith's soul" statement false.

I've seen nothing like a pile of evidence, and I've seen no 'positive' evidence that the statement is correct, and the quote meaning something else.



Well, it looks like you've already made up your mind on the matter! There's no real point to continue this argument, is there?

I periodically reanalyze bits of NGE -- and change my mind about them -- but in this case I find no reason to knock down the building and start from the ground up. Shin-seiki and others have already given you plenty of perfectly sound reasons not to doubt a well-established -- and integral -- piece of the NGE mythos. If it's "positive evidence" you want, you're not going to get it. With NGE, you have to make do with what's provided, and what's provided on the whole Rei/Lilith matter leaves no doubt in my mind.

Far too big a deal made out of one line of dialogue, in my opinion.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2003, 04:24 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:54 pm

I haven't made up my mind closing the possibility for further arguments. I came here hoping for someone to have a piece of positive evidence that still saves the Rei has Lilliths soul statement.

But everyone says they have reasons to believe so, but so far, I've seen no positive evidence wich would save the statement.

What's provided? Here's what is provided, the quote on episode 25. That's positive, that's evidence, that's unambiguous.

Now, is there a positive unambiguous piece of evidence wich would save the statement?

Many big deals are made from one single piece of dialogue, like the ATF stuff. It's what is provided by Evangelion.

I'm begging for only one unambiguous piece of positive evidence wich could save the statement. Anyone has it?

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2003, 21:22 GMT

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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:54 pm

We gave you the evidence from the RCB but you choose to belive it is false.

And all of the other evidence you chose explain it away with little evidence to do so.

We have explained away that one qoute (rather well I think) but yet you hold fast to that and no other evidence. Thus it seems to me that you have made up your mind on the subject.

If you are looking for a quote in the series where they say "Rei has Liliths soul" you are not going to find it.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2003, 21:38 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:54 pm

The evidence from the RCB is not valid enough if there's evidence inside the series denying what the RCB says. After all it has one undeniable error. After knowing that, everything has to be double-checked for consistency.

And all of the other evidence you chose explain it away with little evidence to do so.



Its not like that, you all seem to take that because she said the 'inner truth' part, it had to be Lillith, but it could also be Yui.

The only positive thing I got from that is the following:
"Because she might not have a human shape"

But I'm waiting to see if something more positive comes up. That last quote can be argued against easily.

We have explained away that one qoute (rather well I think) but yet you hold fast to that and no other evidence. Thus it seems to me that you have made up your mind on the subject.



No, you all seem to think that because it was instrumentality, then whatever she says is not accountable as truth, or that everything said is distorted some way. Context you say, but I don't get 'what' context your referring to. Context defined by what? where are the limits?

If you are looking for a quote in the series where they say "Rei has Liliths soul" you are not going to find it.



I know, but I found a quote saying she hasn't got that soul. Is there anything 'solid' (not mere speculations) against that quote? Something wich could save the statement?

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2003, 22:19 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:54 pm

What are you doing in these forums, Achtung? You ought to be in a court. You'd be good at that sort of thing. ::p

Anyway, I'm really clueless as to where all this is supposed to be going... But, just because nobody's directly cited this yet, here's a certain little interchange from 24':

Kaworu: So you're the First Children? Ayanami Rei. You're the same as me. We've both taken the Lilim's form as our body to live on this planet.
Rei: Who are you?

Have a blast negating the connotations of that one, since I'm sure you'll find another way to interpret it.

Still, why would Kaworu say "We've both taken the Lilim's form" unless they both were not Lilim originally? If Kaworu's words are to be taken at face value (uh-oh, I'm turning into Shin-seiki! :scaredImage, Rei's "inner self" CANNOT be Yui, as you seem to be contending, since Yui is a Lilim. (Well... The original incarnation of Yui, anyway. ::p)

Which leaves only one alternative.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2003, 22:55 GMT

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Postby NakedEYE666 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:54 pm

I beleive they are the same, accept that EOE is depressing and the TV ending is uplifting.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2003, 23:08 GMT


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