Imitatation is the sincerest form of rip-off

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Dr. Nick [ANF]
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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:49 am

Hexon.Arq wrote:I'm no Kaballah expert (despite what I vowed to myself last summer), but if that is a conscious take on the Sephirotic Tree, then it seems to encompass all that is not part of this mundane world; Divine and lesser conscious thought and awareness without any connection to concrete reality.

Before I shall post anything purely theoretic concerning this matter, I need to check I've got the sephiroth right. To me it seems that the ones on that book cover are Kether, Hochmah, Binah, Hesed, Geburah and Tipheret, with Da'ath (the eleventeenth, non-existent sephira of knowledge) in the center. The paths aren't correctly connected though, for example the direct path between Binah and Tipheret has been removed and new paths leading to Da'ath have been added. My assumption is that this is due to stylistic reasons, as Da'ath is not normally placed into the system (also, a symmetrical cover logo might be considered more pleasing to the eye).

Now, this site says the following about the sephiroth:

The first nine sephirot were grouped in threes, each triad including a masculine element, a feminine element, and a combining element. The first three sephirot represented the world of thought; the second, the world of emotions and morals; the third, the world of nature. The tenth sephirah, Malkut, existed alone as the harmony of the other nine.

"This triune was paralleled by the Kaballists' version of the three-part soul - an idea expressed earlier by Plato, Aristotle, the Bible, and the Talmud. The soul called Neshamah represented the intellect and corresponded to the first three sephirot. The soul called Ruah represented the emotion and corresponded to the Hesed-Geburah-Tipheret triad. The soul called Nefesh represented man's animal nature and corresponded to the lowest triad of sephirot.

Indeed, it appears to be just as Hexon said. So, if that symbol on the book cover really is the upper, divine part of Sephirothic system, that would make quite a lot sense in the context of R.O.D.

Originally posted on: 05.10.2005, 04:34 PM

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Postby Stelok [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:49 am

Shin-seiki wrote:I recently downloaded, and have been watching, the imfamous shoujo anime masterpiece Oniisama E "Brother, Dear Brother" (1991), based on the classic manga by Riyoko Ikeda, who also wrote 'Rose of Versailles'. It's a dark, over-heated, melodramatic story of an innocent young girl's experiences in an all-girls' academy: it has tragedy and betrayals, suicide, drug addiction, and implied lesbianism; in other words, all the stuff that makes life juicy and interesting Image

It is intesting to note, in regard to where Anno may have come up with the names of his characters, that two of the main characters in Oniisama E are Rei Asaka, aka "Hana no Saint Just" (Saint Just of the Flowers), and Kaoru Orihara, aka "Kaoru no Kimi" (Prince Kaoru).

It is plenty obvious to me that Anno was familiar with Oniisama E; in fact, he included an hommage (a polite word for rip-off) to it in #18 of NGE. As I was watching episode 04 of Oniisama, I suddenly was like "Woah! That sure looks familiar!" Both scenes take place at sunset, in a playground situated on a steep hillside overlooking the city, and in both, two teenage girls who are best friends have a heart to heart talk. Here, for your edification, are the two scenes in question, in their entirety:

The resemblance between the two scenes is particularly notable in these cuts:
)

Those scenes are pretty similar but I doubt it means they copied those scenes from another anime.

After all, anyone could have imagined anything especially which is pretty common.

Originally posted on: 05.20.2005, 10:53 AM

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:49 am

Ichirou Ohgami wrote:Those scenes are pretty similar but I doubt it means they copied those scenes from another anime.

After all, anyone could have imagined anything especially which is pretty common.

As I pointed out above, the resemblance is more striking when you actually watch the two scenes side by side. It doesn't seem like a random coincidence that in both cases there are (apropos of nothing in particular) cut-away shots of a sandbox, followed by shots of the character's feet... I just think it was intended as a nod to Oniisama E that GAINAX threw in just for any fans of both series who might be paying really close attention.

Originally posted on: 05.20.2005, 11:50 AM

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Postby Levon [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:50 am

Incidentally, Sepirothic System has made brief "cameo appearances" in two newer anime shows, Macross Zero and R.O.D the TV. In both cases the possibility of a homage isn't really far-fetched: After all, the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross from the year 1979, with its ideas about mysterious alien force as the progenitor of humanity, has definately influenced Anno and other loonies of Gainax, so it's quite safe to assume the makers of Zero now in turn put in an Eva-reference.

SDF Macross is from 1982, not 1979. Maybe your thinking of Mobile Suit Gundam.

Anime such as Ideon from 1980 I hear has a much more influence on Evangelion. http://www.escaflowneonline.com/eva/ideon.html


[url=http://web.archive.org/web/20030701171737/http://masterwork.animemedia.com/Evangelion/anno.html[/url]]Anno Interview[/url]
On anime creators who inspired him...

ANNO: Outside of my staff, Mr. Yoshiyuki Tomino. Tomino's Mobile Suit Gundam and Space Runaway Ideon are my favorite anime besides Yamato. Hayao Miyazaki, with whom I worked on Nausicaa, animating the scene where the God-Soldier fires, was also a mentor to me.



I don't see how Macross influenced Anno really. Has he even seen the show?

Originally posted on: 05.20.2005, 06:32 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:50 am

From BJ's page:

In the early 80's Anno provided mechanical designs and principle animation work for the opening animation short, directed by Yamaga, for the sci-fi convention Daicon 3. During these years, Anno went to Tokyo with Yamaga to help out with key animation and retouch work for the pilot episode of the animated TV series "Macross: Super Dimension Fortress".

This was before "Nausicaa", BTW.

Originally posted on: 05.21.2005, 01:30 AM

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Postby Levon [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:51 am

I see.

I don't really see the influence of Macross in Evangelion though.


PS- In 1988 he also did [I believe] battle ship mecha designs in Char's Counterattack. He did a good job there.

Originally posted on: 05.21.2005, 02:18 AM

Dr. Nick [ANF]
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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:51 am

Levon wrote:SDF Macross is from 1982, not 1979. Maybe your thinking of Mobile Suit Gundam.

Duh, my bad. I have this impression that the Studio Nue guys created the "Megaroad"-concept already in 79, but that doesn't really matter since it's the original airing year that counts. Thanks for correcting me! (I really need to see the original MS Gundam. But is it even available subbed?)

As Reichu pointed out, Anno worked on the animation crew of the show (even if for a short time), and definite Macross-references can be found in NGE: There are similar plot elements such as "the first ancestral civilization" (Protoculture, anyone?), and the almost non-existent genetical difference between humans and angels / Zentradi.

There are also several visual references (or "recycled items", so to speak), the most notable one probably being the battleship-attack used in ep. 08 to destroy Gaghiel - it's basically the Macross' Daedalus attack moved underwater.

Originally posted on: 05.21.2005, 04:54 AM

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Postby Levon [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:51 am

Yeah there are some similar stuff. While Evangelion is very diffrent from most anime it still has a lot of similar elements from many diffrent anime.

Dr. Nick wrote:(I really need to see the original MS Gundam. But is it even available subbed?)

Yes you can get the "original MS Gundam" subbed, but not the TV series version. Just the movie trilogy version.

The TV series isn't since Japan said the tracks can't be used, excuses such as the tracks are to messed up. They havn't even released it in Japan on DVD even though its one of the most popular anime there.

But there is always the Movie trilogy. Which is the 43 episode TV series compressed & edited into 3 movies with new scenes & improved animation on many scenes. As well as other changes. It works out well, most anime where this kind of happens it doesn't turn out good but in this case it worked out great.

http://www.animeondvd.com/reviews2/d...views/1330.php


The movie boxset is subbed only. With two Japanese tracks, one is the old one & theres also a new one in 5.1

Originally posted on: 05.21.2005, 05:49 AM

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:51 am

Levon wrote:Yeah there are some similar stuff. While Evangelion is very diffrent from most anime it still has a lot of similar elements from many diffrent anime.

That's what storytelling is all about, baby - taking existing themes and elements and distorting and mangling them in new, creative ways. Like playing with Legos, essentially.

And hell, that movie trilogy boxset isn't even expensive. I think I'm going to have to buy it after I finish collecting a couple of other series.

Originally posted on: 05.21.2005, 06:44 AM

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:51 am

Levon wrote:Yeah there are some similar stuff. While Evangelion is very diffrent from most anime it still has a lot of similar elements from many diffrent anime.



Yes you can get the "original MS Gundam" subbed, but not the TV series version. Just the movie trilogy version.

Dude! I didn't know that. I've been watching the TV series DVDs dubbed. I'm definitely going to go out and get the movies.

With regard to your first point: I view anime as like cooking. There aren't any original ingredients, so creativity is in how you mix them, and how well you combine various elements. You can create new anime by bringing together two well-worn elements which have never been tried together before.

Originally posted on: 05.21.2005, 07:06 AM

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Postby Levon [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:51 am

Dr. Nick wrote:And hell, that movie trilogy boxset isn't even expensive. I think I'm going to have to buy it after I finish collecting a couple of other series.

You can get the movie box as cheap at $27! Thats like $9 per movie, plus the box & coverart is wonderful & very shinny. It also comes with a booklet with info like the changes made in the movies from the TV series.

Soluzar wrote:Dude! I didn't know that. I've been watching the TV series DVDs dubbed. I'm definitely going to go out and get the movies.

Image


I prefer the TV series myself, even if there are some lame filler eps(around episode 10) & some badly animated scenes I prefer the TV series since its got more character devolopment & just more overall. They cut one of my favorite battles out in the movies! When they are on the Texas colony they edited it so Char & Amuro were just fighting instead of the great saber battle with the Gyan.
The movies remove the flaws of the TV series but they also remove more than just the flaws. But the movies are still pretty good.

Originally posted on: 05.21.2005, 07:51 AM

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Postby MagicianCamille [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:51 am

Soluzar wrote:Dude! I didn't know that. I've been watching the TV series DVDs dubbed. I'm definitely going to go out and get the movies.


Even though I:

1. TOLD YOU THEY EXIST.
2. POINTED YOU TO THE VERY DETAILED FAQ.

Biscuit, do you hate me?

Originally posted on: 05.21.2005, 08:58 AM

Soluzar [ANF]
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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:51 am

MagicianCamille wrote:Even though I:

1. TOLD YOU THEY EXIST.
2. POINTED YOU TO THE VERY DETAILED FAQ.

Biscuit, do you hate me?

Image No.... I just have a very bad memory sometimes. I knew perfectly well the movies existed, just not that they had subs and Japanese audio. That's what I only just realised.

Originally posted on: 05.21.2005, 02:30 PM

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:51 am

These findings are quite probably the same ones Dave posted here, but since that link of his ain't working anymore, here they are again. From Gainax's new hyperactive fan-service show He Is My Master: Yoshitaka's computer mainframe room (ep. 02). A familiar beer brand returns in a slightly mutated form (ep. 03 - and that green turd's supposed to be a crocodile, BTW).

Undoubtedly more similar in-jokes will be encountered, as so far only four episodes have been fansubbed, and the show is absolutely filled with all kinds of anime and Hollywood-movie references. A fair warning though - if you now got interested in HIMM, be aware that the show is rather stupid. So stupid, in fact, that it makes Mahoromatic look like Schindler's List. (Well, it's still far better than that Harry Potter in Space, I mean Diebuster.)

Another possible oddball NGE-reference from a show called G-On Riders (episode 12):
1. "Crap, again with the aliens!"
2. "Dear Lord, it's coming closer!"
3. Trapped! Hmm, where have I seen this before?

And so, the stage is set for a legendary all-out battle between the G-on Riders (= magical schoolgirls with big-arsed swords) and the mass-produced Fancy Beasts (find our for yourself)!

Like HIMM, this show too bombards the viewer with atrocious amounts of more or less bizarre pop-cultural gags. Although I'm no anime expert and I'm sure I missed a lot of stuff, but I was able to notice the obvious Pokemon and Naruto-references. Definately the funniest one though was this rather gay re-enactment of a certain famous scene from Independence Day: ph34r the pink ufo of d00m!

Originally posted on: 06.08.2005, 12:43 PM

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:51 am

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...g-on_part1.jpg
Looks like Staryu and Starmi's latest evolution. Image

Originally posted on: 06.08.2005, 12:50 PM

Dr. Nick [ANF]
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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:51 am

Magami No ER wrote:Looks like Staryu and Starmi's latest evolution. Image

What the hell are they?

Originally posted on: 06.08.2005, 01:19 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:51 am

Tsk, tsk, Niko-kun, you clearly need to become acquainted with your Pocket Monsters. (Erm... yeah.)

Image Image

Regarding the "Starmie" scene, what about it is supposed to be evocative of NGE?

Originally posted on: 06.08.2005, 02:26 PM

Dr. Nick [ANF]
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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:51 am

Damnation, I only noticed the Pokeball.

Reichu wrote:Regarding the "Starmie" scene, what about it is supposed to be evocative of NGE?

Look at the third image - doesn't it look A LOT like Geofront? There's the ceiling city and everything. The two first ones are there just to illustrate how it was formed.

Originally posted on: 06.08.2005, 02:33 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:52 am

Oh, is that supposed to be the inside of the "bowl" attached to the bottom of the starfish?

Originally posted on: 06.08.2005, 02:38 PM

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:52 am

Reichu wrote:Oh, is that supposed to be the inside of the "bowl" attached to the bottom of the starfish?

Exactly. Illustrating the transition with still-images is a real bitch.

The bowl-thingamabob looks a bit like a rocket thruster, but in reality it's more like a huge-scale siege dome. Enemy ground targets are trapped inside of it and blasted to bits with missiles and cute pink rays of d00m.

Originally posted on: 06.08.2005, 03:10 PM


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