Reichu's Revelations: The First Humans, Angels, and the DSS
- Seele08 [ANF]
- Matarael
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
So than what's the difference between lilims humans and the FAR humans? What anatomicly makes us different from them. Why are we angelic and they aren't, if we are technicly the same critters. Is just coming from Lilith make you an angel even though you are the same thing as an FAR human? *head explodes from confuzzlement*
Originally posted on: 06-Feb-2006, 23:48 GMT
Originally posted on: 06-Feb-2006, 23:48 GMT
Seele08 wrote:So than what's the difference between lilims humans and the FAR humans? What anatomicly makes us different from them. Why are we angelic and they aren't, if we are technicly the same critters. Is just coming from Lilith make you an angel even though you are the same thing as an FAR human? *head explodes from confuzzlement*
We are apostles/angels because were are carrying on their genetic lineage as are the adam humans.
Originally posted on: 07-Feb-2006, 00:34 GMT
- AsukaxSohryux [ANF]
- Lilith
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
- Reichu [ANF]
- Angel
- Posts: 3651
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
Oh, dear, how did I miss this?
Well, yeah, I guess you just have to accept the premise. They're still dead. Armisael is still the last one (well, aside from the Albino Black Sheep). I dunno, imagine heading to the Black Moon (= sole point of reference on a planet that was supposed to be yours, mind) and finding no signs of your siblings but their disembodied souls floating around.
Armisael "OMG! WTF happened while I was incubating?!?"
Sahaquiel "Well... We all kind of died. But thanks for asking."
Gaghiel "Yeah, what Sahaq said."
Zeruel "And you're next, sister. Pray you don't get eaten like me."
Armisael "... Mommy? Where's Mommy?!?"
Sachiel "I think Mom's dead, too."
Sandalphon "Mommy killed me! "
Shamshel "Sandy, that wasn't Mommy... That was a 'bad person' called an 'Eva'."
Arael "They're not bad people. They're just misunderstood."
Zeruel "Can it, bird brain."
Arael "Your aggression issues were your undoing, brother."
Zeruel "And your peace-loving hippie freak tendencies were yours. You make me sick!"
Arael "I'm just inquisitive!"
Sachiel "And I was in Reaction Formation against my raging Oedipal desires! "
Gaghiel "I was just hungry."
Matarael "I think I was screwed over by the script..."
Armisael "Sshhh... Do you feel that? I think I feel something I can't quite put a helix on... Like a giant, gaping hole in my heart."
Sachiel "That would be Zeruel's lousy attitude."
Armisael "No! Don't you see? It wasn't supposed to be this way! You're just little red dots winking at me!"
Leliel "Well, sorry for being reduced to a giant pool of blood and gore back in episode #16."
Ireul "I forget what happened to me."
Sahaquiel "Norton Anti-Virus."
Bardiel "What about Bardiel? Nobody cares about poor Bardiel and his own bloody, horrible death!"
Armisael "This... this planet should be ours! And you -- all of you -- should be here by my side! With Mother!"
Matarael "Well, life just isn't fair, kid. You know?"
:EVA-00 spotted!:
Armisael "Look! Is that Mother?"
Israfel (together) "No, that is one of the aforementioned 'Bad People'."
Armisael "I don't care! I can make things right! Everybody get in, and hang on."
:fuse:
:detach:
:whoosh!!!:
What the heck were we talking about again?
Anyway, yeah. So they're still around in some form; it's not much better than being alone with a bunch of ghosts. Or Shinji on the shore of a sea FILLED with disembodied souls. I guess he lacks any means to speak with them whatsoever, lacking ATF Magic and all, so Armisael has a slight advantage there. But whatever. It still sucks, for both of them.
So, hence, to summarize:
Armisael "Little person inside this one-eyed version of Mother, what is this pain I feel? Can you tell me?"
Rei "Loneliness, duh, n00b."
Armisael "Oh, cool. So you know all about it! If you help me on this end, I'll help you on the other!"
:floods EVA-00 with souls:
:bubble-bubble:
Fans "OMG WTF?!?"
Bridge Crew "OMF WTF?!?"
Gendo "That does it. Bring Yui out of Time Out. Go kick some @$$, Son. And should you fail... Well, you know."
:sortie, whoosh!:
Armisael "Another Mother! They're all over the place! Let me give you a big hug! There's somebody important to Rei inside you, isn't there?"
Shinji "AHHHH GET THE HELL AWAY!"
:knife, poke, aerosol:
Armisael "WAHHHHHHHHH!!! Pain, more pain! Why do you reject my love? Hmm... Is this any better?"
:morph, giggle giggle:
Shinji "Aw, crap, you win."
Rei "My heart wants to be with Ikari-kun, but this is too fscked-up! I'm sorry, Armisael, everybody, but priorities are priorities, and mine are with Commander Ikari and Thanatos!"
:Tower of Terror Suckage and subsequent disturbing imagery:
Armisael "Nooooo! How can this happen? Was Zeruel right? Am I knockin' on Heaven's Door, too? Rei, how can you betray me? I thought we were friends!"
Rei "I said I was sorry."
:boom!:
Shinji "While I'm REALLY glad that frightening scene is over, I feel a huge, gaping hole in my heart...."
:dust settles, crater fills up:
Zeruel "Talk about getting worked up over nothing. Armisael, you suck."
Armisael "I'm sorry..."
Sachiel "At least now we get to be the honorary Ghosts of the Lake. If we try really hard, I bet we can make this a Psycho Hazard Zone, too!"
Bardiel "(sardonically) Sounds like fun."
Arael "That's right up my alley."
Armisael "...... Is there another?"
Zeruel "Another what? Opportunity to get screwed over?"
Leliel "I think she means another one of us."
Shamshel "Or another two-in-one package deal?"
Israfel (together) "Fourteen mandorlas, one containing Israfel two. And here we fifteen shall dwell, without physical form, at the mercies of Fate."
Zeruel "In other words, we're screwed."
Arael "Well, you never know. Maybe we'll get lucky."
Leliel "The way this show has been going, I think it's safe to say that everyone is going to get screwed."
Zeruel "AND I'LL BE LAUGHING MY METAPHYSICAL ARSE OFF WHEN IT HAPPENS!!!!"
Oh, dear. Why do I always get carried away?
To understand NGE, you must play by NGE's rules. "I don't think this should be happening." "Too bad! It is. Accept it, then figure out why, and how." This is a pretty basic guideline, and if you restrict your interpretation of the show to what you want it to be, or the way you think things should work, unless something is spelled out for you*, you're in trouble. As Master Yoda said, "Let go."
The only ones who would know the Derived Images (Reichu-ben for "imagined selves") of the Apostles are the individual Apostles themselves. Armisael was off incubating in her mandorla somewhere while her siblings were "buying the farm" (as Shin-seiki once put it) from various Mother Reincarnates. Ergo, that Armisael is effectively "pumping" their souls into EVA-00 -- and they effectively begin to remanifest upon the Throne of Souls, the entry plug -- is the only logical explanation for what can be happening. And the only plausible one I have ever come across.
You say that this ability is "never otherwise alluded to", but, in fact, what happens in #23' is but the first step required to shed light on the Apostles' further involvement in the story. (And, no -- they still aren't very interested in staying dead.) Anno, of course, has been impish enough about this plot detail that, unless you figure out what Armi was doing, you will be completely oblivious to everything that follows up on it. And, as far as I am aware, everyone has been. Suffice to say, the events of #24 and EoE will only make sense in full by looking at the big picture -- deep into it -- and that includes taking the ultimate fate of Adam and her offspring into account, however obfuscated the trail of clues may be.
But where do you go from here, after EVA-00 has blown sky-high, taking out Armisael, destroying her efforts, and turning Tokyo-3 into an extension of Ashinoko?
Enter one of the most IMO needlessly controversial scenes in the entire series: #24', Kaworu and the "Seele" Monoliths. We are at the lake. (That's significant. See Sachiel's comment earlier, fufufu.) Kaworu is standing on the neck of a headless statue combining imagery from Adam, Lilith, and the Eva Series. There are fifteen monoliths with the word "Seele" ("soul") on them, which only Kaworu can see and hear. They appear out of thin air and vanish just as mysteriously. There is no way to account for them in terms of "face value".
I somewhat recklessly threw the solution at people without explaining how I had reached it in the infamous "Imaginary Monoliths" thread. (I could have handled myself and my manic excitement a bit more prudently, of course, but there was absolutely no excuse for the flame war that it "inspired". That goes without saying.) I'm not sure if the environment around here has cooled to the point where that scene can be revisited again, PROPERLY, but if, people are willing to listen, it's something I'd need to do some preparatory work for anyway... Damn, never any shortage of that, is there?
* And even then, people don't always play along.
Originally posted on: 07-Feb-2006, 01:58 GMT
Dr.Nick wrote:I like this explanation as well, but a question tho: if Armi indeed has collected the souls of the previous Apostles, why would she be feeling lonely anymore?
K2Grey wrote:Edit: As for why Armisael was still lonely, well, I don't think Seele/Nerv was capable of communicating with the souls of everyone's moms that they were keeping in storage, so Armisael may not be capable of such communication either.
Well, yeah, I guess you just have to accept the premise. They're still dead. Armisael is still the last one (well, aside from the Albino Black Sheep). I dunno, imagine heading to the Black Moon (= sole point of reference on a planet that was supposed to be yours, mind) and finding no signs of your siblings but their disembodied souls floating around.
Armisael "OMG! WTF happened while I was incubating?!?"
Sahaquiel "Well... We all kind of died. But thanks for asking."
Gaghiel "Yeah, what Sahaq said."
Zeruel "And you're next, sister. Pray you don't get eaten like me."
Armisael "... Mommy? Where's Mommy?!?"
Sachiel "I think Mom's dead, too."
Sandalphon "Mommy killed me! "
Shamshel "Sandy, that wasn't Mommy... That was a 'bad person' called an 'Eva'."
Arael "They're not bad people. They're just misunderstood."
Zeruel "Can it, bird brain."
Arael "Your aggression issues were your undoing, brother."
Zeruel "And your peace-loving hippie freak tendencies were yours. You make me sick!"
Arael "I'm just inquisitive!"
Sachiel "And I was in Reaction Formation against my raging Oedipal desires! "
Gaghiel "I was just hungry."
Matarael "I think I was screwed over by the script..."
Armisael "Sshhh... Do you feel that? I think I feel something I can't quite put a helix on... Like a giant, gaping hole in my heart."
Sachiel "That would be Zeruel's lousy attitude."
Armisael "No! Don't you see? It wasn't supposed to be this way! You're just little red dots winking at me!"
Leliel "Well, sorry for being reduced to a giant pool of blood and gore back in episode #16."
Ireul "I forget what happened to me."
Sahaquiel "Norton Anti-Virus."
Bardiel "What about Bardiel? Nobody cares about poor Bardiel and his own bloody, horrible death!"
Armisael "This... this planet should be ours! And you -- all of you -- should be here by my side! With Mother!"
Matarael "Well, life just isn't fair, kid. You know?"
:EVA-00 spotted!:
Armisael "Look! Is that Mother?"
Israfel (together) "No, that is one of the aforementioned 'Bad People'."
Armisael "I don't care! I can make things right! Everybody get in, and hang on."
:fuse:
:detach:
:whoosh!!!:
What the heck were we talking about again?
Anyway, yeah. So they're still around in some form; it's not much better than being alone with a bunch of ghosts. Or Shinji on the shore of a sea FILLED with disembodied souls. I guess he lacks any means to speak with them whatsoever, lacking ATF Magic and all, so Armisael has a slight advantage there. But whatever. It still sucks, for both of them.
So, hence, to summarize:
Armisael "Little person inside this one-eyed version of Mother, what is this pain I feel? Can you tell me?"
Rei "Loneliness, duh, n00b."
Armisael "Oh, cool. So you know all about it! If you help me on this end, I'll help you on the other!"
:floods EVA-00 with souls:
:bubble-bubble:
Fans "OMG WTF?!?"
Bridge Crew "OMF WTF?!?"
Gendo "That does it. Bring Yui out of Time Out. Go kick some @$$, Son. And should you fail... Well, you know."
:sortie, whoosh!:
Armisael "Another Mother! They're all over the place! Let me give you a big hug! There's somebody important to Rei inside you, isn't there?"
Shinji "AHHHH GET THE HELL AWAY!"
:knife, poke, aerosol:
Armisael "WAHHHHHHHHH!!! Pain, more pain! Why do you reject my love? Hmm... Is this any better?"
:morph, giggle giggle:
Shinji "Aw, crap, you win."
Rei "My heart wants to be with Ikari-kun, but this is too fscked-up! I'm sorry, Armisael, everybody, but priorities are priorities, and mine are with Commander Ikari and Thanatos!"
:Tower of Terror Suckage and subsequent disturbing imagery:
Armisael "Nooooo! How can this happen? Was Zeruel right? Am I knockin' on Heaven's Door, too? Rei, how can you betray me? I thought we were friends!"
Rei "I said I was sorry."
:boom!:
Shinji "While I'm REALLY glad that frightening scene is over, I feel a huge, gaping hole in my heart...."
:dust settles, crater fills up:
Zeruel "Talk about getting worked up over nothing. Armisael, you suck."
Armisael "I'm sorry..."
Sachiel "At least now we get to be the honorary Ghosts of the Lake. If we try really hard, I bet we can make this a Psycho Hazard Zone, too!"
Bardiel "(sardonically) Sounds like fun."
Arael "That's right up my alley."
Armisael "...... Is there another?"
Zeruel "Another what? Opportunity to get screwed over?"
Leliel "I think she means another one of us."
Shamshel "Or another two-in-one package deal?"
Israfel (together) "Fourteen mandorlas, one containing Israfel two. And here we fifteen shall dwell, without physical form, at the mercies of Fate."
Zeruel "In other words, we're screwed."
Arael "Well, you never know. Maybe we'll get lucky."
Leliel "The way this show has been going, I think it's safe to say that everyone is going to get screwed."
Zeruel "AND I'LL BE LAUGHING MY METAPHYSICAL ARSE OFF WHEN IT HAPPENS!!!!"
Oh, dear. Why do I always get carried away?
K2Grey wrote:I'm really not so sure that Armisael necessarily is capable of collecting the souls of dead Angels, given that this ability is never otherwise alluded to, and none of the other Angels seem to engage in such behavior.
To understand NGE, you must play by NGE's rules. "I don't think this should be happening." "Too bad! It is. Accept it, then figure out why, and how." This is a pretty basic guideline, and if you restrict your interpretation of the show to what you want it to be, or the way you think things should work, unless something is spelled out for you*, you're in trouble. As Master Yoda said, "Let go."
The only ones who would know the Derived Images (Reichu-ben for "imagined selves") of the Apostles are the individual Apostles themselves. Armisael was off incubating in her mandorla somewhere while her siblings were "buying the farm" (as Shin-seiki once put it) from various Mother Reincarnates. Ergo, that Armisael is effectively "pumping" their souls into EVA-00 -- and they effectively begin to remanifest upon the Throne of Souls, the entry plug -- is the only logical explanation for what can be happening. And the only plausible one I have ever come across.
You say that this ability is "never otherwise alluded to", but, in fact, what happens in #23' is but the first step required to shed light on the Apostles' further involvement in the story. (And, no -- they still aren't very interested in staying dead.) Anno, of course, has been impish enough about this plot detail that, unless you figure out what Armi was doing, you will be completely oblivious to everything that follows up on it. And, as far as I am aware, everyone has been. Suffice to say, the events of #24 and EoE will only make sense in full by looking at the big picture -- deep into it -- and that includes taking the ultimate fate of Adam and her offspring into account, however obfuscated the trail of clues may be.
But where do you go from here, after EVA-00 has blown sky-high, taking out Armisael, destroying her efforts, and turning Tokyo-3 into an extension of Ashinoko?
Enter one of the most IMO needlessly controversial scenes in the entire series: #24', Kaworu and the "Seele" Monoliths. We are at the lake. (That's significant. See Sachiel's comment earlier, fufufu.) Kaworu is standing on the neck of a headless statue combining imagery from Adam, Lilith, and the Eva Series. There are fifteen monoliths with the word "Seele" ("soul") on them, which only Kaworu can see and hear. They appear out of thin air and vanish just as mysteriously. There is no way to account for them in terms of "face value".
I somewhat recklessly threw the solution at people without explaining how I had reached it in the infamous "Imaginary Monoliths" thread. (I could have handled myself and my manic excitement a bit more prudently, of course, but there was absolutely no excuse for the flame war that it "inspired". That goes without saying.) I'm not sure if the environment around here has cooled to the point where that scene can be revisited again, PROPERLY, but if, people are willing to listen, it's something I'd need to do some preparatory work for anyway... Damn, never any shortage of that, is there?
* And even then, people don't always play along.
Originally posted on: 07-Feb-2006, 01:58 GMT
- Seele08 [ANF]
- Matarael
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
ROFLcopter!
The chairman approves!
Giggles...
Originally posted on: 07-Feb-2006, 02:03 GMT
The chairman approves!
Leliel "Well, sorry for being reduced to a giant pool of blood and gore back in episode #16."Ireul "I forget what happened to me."
Armisael "This... this planet should be ours! And you should be here by my side! With Mother!"
Bardiel "Well, life just isn't fair. You know?"
Armisael "Look! Is that Mother?"
Israfel (together) "No, that is one of the aforementioned 'Bad People'."
Armisael "I don't care! I can make things right! Everybody get in, and hang on."
:fuse:
:detach:
:whoosh!!!:
Giggles...
Originally posted on: 07-Feb-2006, 02:03 GMT
- Reichu [ANF]
- Angel
- Posts: 3651
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
Seele08 wrote:ROFLcopter!
The chairman approves!
Glad you like. Although, my silly dialogues are usually meant to relay information or points relevant to the discussion, however obfuscated they possibly become when I get "carried away". If you are "very clever", you can probably follow my convoluted thought processes. If not, Zeruel is laughing his metaphysical arse* off at you -- without my permission, of course. Poor Zeruel.
Asukax wrote:Lilim are the offspring of Lilith, us humans. Angels are humans in a different form, which can't coexsist with mankind.
Ano... Did you even read that post Reichu went to so much trouble to type up for everybody? "I write 'em so you can read 'em." I spelled out everything right there.
Ark, Seele08, you seem to be confused by the way this stuff works, as well. Granted, it is damned confusing. (That's NGE for you.) I thought I wrote it all out in plain words, so I'm not exactly sure how I would proceed from here without biking in perpetual circles. Family tree diagram, maybe? ::p Let Reichu know...
Seele08 wrote:So than what's the difference between lilims humans and the FAR humans? What anatomicly makes us different from them.
All intimations are that the First Ancestral Race were the same sort of deal as Adam and the Evas, just bite-sized. (Adam's SDSS, depicted in #23', are the giveaway that comes to mind.) And they made gods (= Seeds) in their image to ensure that humanity would never die, and so on and so forth... Well, honestly, who else would the Seeds be "in the image" of? But remember that Lilith is ... weird, and probably for a reason, so Adam and the various ADOs (not counting the Apostles' wacky imagined selves) are a more reliable source of info on how the Seeds' mortal antecedents looked and operated. (Not that Lilith doesn't give us any juicy tidbits about those who sent her...)
As for how the FAR would differ from us, just look here (towards the bottom of #281, specifically), remember what Adam and those derived from her ultimately represent, and there you have it...
There's further weird stuff you can extrapolate about them from the show (they have a much bigger presence than you might think), but that's not ready for the public yet. (Conspiring occurs in the shadows, though. At least, it might be. )
* Due to the fact that he doesn't have a physical one anymore.
Originally posted on: 07-Feb-2006, 15:01 GMT
- Scutilla [ANF]
- Embryo
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
Well, I finally decided to plow through one of these threads, so I may as well put my recent AN forum registration to good use. Excuse any n00bish comments I may make. Also keep in mind this is the first of the "Reichu Revelation" threads I've tackled (know how dense this stuff is as reading material? ), so some or all of my questions may already be answered elsewhere. Can't wait for all of this stuff to someday make it to the FGC site so it's all in one easy-to-read location.
So were the FAR the same size as Terran humans... In one of your other posts you mention the SoLs are "merely giant, augmented versions of themselves"... but why make them so much bigger? Would it be impossible for whatever reason to send a 2-meter-tall SoL?
So the Spear is Lilith's... you mentioned that each moon had a copy of the DSS (which makes me wonder what happened to Lilith's copy, but that's another question), would Adam have a Spear too? Or is the Spear an optional part of the SoL project (you don't need one, in the same way that it's needed for Seele's version of 3I but not Gendo's) and Lilith was the only one of the two who decided to bring one? You mention that the spear doubles as an S2 organ- Adam already has one of those, and we don't know about Lilith.
I love the concept of Lilith and Adam doing battle with the Spear of Longinus, by the way... what a fight that must've been.
If the Scrolls explicitly mention the Apostles (and goes so far as to mention their names and order of birth), then why is Ireul (#11) missing? According to Seele Iruel wasn't part of their plan from the DSS... I wish Amazon would hurry up with my thinpacks so I can give exact quotes and pretend I know what I'm talking about.
I suppose it depends on when the forms are decided on. If the Apostles didn't come up with a form to take until the Quickening right before their hatching (which is the impression I got from reading some of your stuff), then who knows. If the forms had already been determined before Adam spewed everyone out during 2I, though, then there's no reason why Armi couldn't have found out her siblings' forms then. Snooping on your siblings when you're still in the womb...?
The alternative, of Armi collecting her siblings souls and literrally trying to resurrect all fourteen of them through Eva-00, does sound a bit silly- although it would certainly produce an "Oh fsck we're screwed" reaction from Nerv if it had worked
But as you said, "To understand NGE, you must play by NGE's rules." I can't think of anything else that's at all plausible... if the theory fits, wear it, I guess.
I haven't read this Imaginary Monoliths thread (I mostly just contained my reading to the Go Hikari thread for a while, I didn't even know there was a flame war til after the fact), but if you're implying what I think you are...
By the way, would this idea be at all responsible for your Akira theory, or vice versa? Ironfoot's the guy who got me started on NGE, and a while back he was telling me about his "Misato was the test subject with Adam that caused 2I" idea. It came to mind as soon as I read your stuff about Akira.
(Wow, I picked a heck of a thread to make a first post in...)
Originally posted on: 10-Feb-2006, 08:16 GMT
Reichu wrote:The FAR probably looked like miniature versions of the Evas (or followed the form of EVA-01, anyway, who I believe is the closest to Adam physically of all of them -- ironically enough).
So were the FAR the same size as Terran humans... In one of your other posts you mention the SoLs are "merely giant, augmented versions of themselves"... but why make them so much bigger? Would it be impossible for whatever reason to send a 2-meter-tall SoL?
Reichu wrote:The Spear seems to be Lilith's, and she used it as a weapon on Adam to put her into stasis (but not kill her, interestingly), so that the Earth could be home to Lilith's future offspring alone. (Lilith created life by bleeding it: Her blood, LCL, is essentially primordial soup.) Without a source of energy (the Spear), Lilith subsequently went into slumber and left life on Earth to do its thing.
So the Spear is Lilith's... you mentioned that each moon had a copy of the DSS (which makes me wonder what happened to Lilith's copy, but that's another question), would Adam have a Spear too? Or is the Spear an optional part of the SoL project (you don't need one, in the same way that it's needed for Seele's version of 3I but not Gendo's) and Lilith was the only one of the two who decided to bring one? You mention that the spear doubles as an S2 organ- Adam already has one of those, and we don't know about Lilith.
I love the concept of Lilith and Adam doing battle with the Spear of Longinus, by the way... what a fight that must've been.
Reichu wrote:Now that the Apostles have souls, and have "hatched" from their collective Egg (in a sense), they can truly begin their development. Some fourteen years later, they hatch in the order of their births (i.e., the order that they came out of Adam; they were all planned and were thus recorded in Adam's scrolls) and head to Tokyo-3.
If the Scrolls explicitly mention the Apostles (and goes so far as to mention their names and order of birth), then why is Ireul (#11) missing? According to Seele Iruel wasn't part of their plan from the DSS... I wish Amazon would hurry up with my thinpacks so I can give exact quotes and pretend I know what I'm talking about.
Reichu wrote:Eh, oh dear... I'm still boggling over just how Armisael could have KNOWN the Imagined Selves (since that's what the show seems to imply they are) of her dead siblings.
I suppose it depends on when the forms are decided on. If the Apostles didn't come up with a form to take until the Quickening right before their hatching (which is the impression I got from reading some of your stuff), then who knows. If the forms had already been determined before Adam spewed everyone out during 2I, though, then there's no reason why Armi couldn't have found out her siblings' forms then. Snooping on your siblings when you're still in the womb...?
The alternative, of Armi collecting her siblings souls and literrally trying to resurrect all fourteen of them through Eva-00, does sound a bit silly- although it would certainly produce an "Oh fsck we're screwed" reaction from Nerv if it had worked
But as you said, "To understand NGE, you must play by NGE's rules." I can't think of anything else that's at all plausible... if the theory fits, wear it, I guess.
Reichu wrote:Enter one of the most IMO needlessly controversial scenes in the entire series: #24', Kaworu and the "Seele" Monoliths. We are at the lake. (That's significant. See Sachiel's comment earlier, fufufu.) Kaworu is standing on the neck of a headless statue combining imagery from Adam, Lilith, and the Eva Series. There are fifteen monoliths with the word "Seele" ("soul") on them, which only Kaworu can see and hear. They appear out of thin air and vanish just as mysteriously. There is no way to account for them in terms of "face value".
I somewhat recklessly threw the solution at people without explaining how I had reached it in the infamous "Imaginary Monoliths" thread. (I could have handled myself and my manic excitement a bit more prudently, of course, but there was absolutely no excuse for the flame war that it "inspired". That goes without saying.) I'm not sure if the environment around here has cooled to the point where that scene can be revisited again, PROPERLY, but if, people are willing to listen, it's something I'd need to do some preparatory work for anyway... Damn, never any shortage of that, is there?
I haven't read this Imaginary Monoliths thread (I mostly just contained my reading to the Go Hikari thread for a while, I didn't even know there was a flame war til after the fact), but if you're implying what I think you are...
By the way, would this idea be at all responsible for your Akira theory, or vice versa? Ironfoot's the guy who got me started on NGE, and a while back he was telling me about his "Misato was the test subject with Adam that caused 2I" idea. It came to mind as soon as I read your stuff about Akira.
(Wow, I picked a heck of a thread to make a first post in...)
Originally posted on: 10-Feb-2006, 08:16 GMT
- Seele08 [ANF]
- Matarael
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
- Reichu [ANF]
- Angel
- Posts: 3651
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
Scutilla wrote:Well, I finally decided to plow through one of these threads, so I may as well put my recent AN forum registration to good use.
"Welcome to Hell."
Excuse any n00bish comments I may make.
No problem -- we were all n00bs once. (Hey, speaking of which, I'll have to make a grand slideshow of my greatest n00b moments at some point; I'd be a great way to bitchslap people who accuse me of being completely rigid in my mindset!)
Also keep in mind this is the first of the "Reichu Revelation" threads I've tackled (know how dense this stuff is as reading material? ), so some or all of my questions may already be answered elsewhere.
Yar, they are. As for the density, sorry about that. I was a little crazy when I started writing these. (Well, crazier than usual.)
Can't wait for all of this stuff to someday make it to the FGC site so it's all in one easy-to-read location.
I'm working on it, fear nay! (Making CPs for Second Impact stuff right now, actually.) Although "convenient" may be the better word; I'm expecting a lot of flame-boyant e-mails when those sections start going up. (Especially from yaoi fangirls.
So were the FAR the same size as Terran humans...
It's implied by the size of Adam's Scrolls, yes.
In one of your other posts you mention the SoLs are "merely giant, augmented versions of themselves"... but why make them so much bigger? Would it be impossible for whatever reason to send a 2-meter-tall SoL?
Well, think about it. Even if they were a little strange-looking by our standards, and had UBER-technology, they were still humans, interested in keeping humanity alive forever. There clearly has to be some kind of underlying human element that they want to preserve -- since they aren't necessarily preserving the human form itself, as we can see with the Apostles. Hence, the "collective consciousness" shared by H. sapiens is probably something that we -- in NGE -- "inherited" from the FAR themselves. (However exactly that worked.)
What's one of the things that people across cultures have done in their mythologies? They create gods in their own image. (Of course, in the mythologies, it often goes the other way around, since said gods were created to explain natural phenomena before non-supernatural explanations existed.) These supernatural, superhuman beings are fashioned as humans. And, very often, these humans are giants, or capable of becoming so.
People create gods initially to explain the unexplainable, but what's another recurring theme we encounter in more modern tales? With the advent of increasing sophisticated technology, people finally have the power to create these gods in the flesh, whatever the impetus actually is.
In the case of the FAR, their motivations aren't spelled out, but the concepts of the Seeds and the Human Lifecycle* clearly entail a form of immortality for the human essence. The Seeds are also described as "gods" in the show, on the basis of their immortality (among other things?), which might be taken as a hint along similar lines. What "god" means is somewhat ambiguous in the show, but at least one possible definition is clarified in the NGE2 Classified Information. (But later.)
So, yeah, if nothing else, the "Seeds as FAR Giants" bit is just an extension of the "creating gods in one's own image" thing, with the "gods as giant humans" archetype thrown in. I don't think it's very farfetched at all.
And when you have all of that technology, you make EVERYthing REAL-LY big. Why? Because you can.
Plus, you know those Japanese (e.g., Anno-tachi)... They love their giants: giant robots/mecha, daikaijuu, etc. I've never dealved into the psychology behind this rather characteristic quirk, although I suspect that the unifying theme of Big Size + Big Power ties into what I mentioned above somehow.
So the Spear is Lilith's... you mentioned that each moon had a copy of the DSS (which makes me wonder what happened to Lilith's copy, but that's another question)
We don't know if the SDSS were both the same. I personally don't think they were duplicates of one another, although my thoughts aren't very organized right this moment, sooo... I'll just drag out something kinda relevant I typed for some random thread:
Cesternino53 wrote:3. Seele based their plan on what was written on the DSS right?
Reichu wrote:The [First Ancestral Race] outline the different uses of the Spears (each Seed of Life was sent with one -- yes, that includes Adam) in the documents that Seele termed the Secret (lit. Hidden) Dead Sea Scrolls. They came from both Moons, and Lilith's were more fragmented owing to the fact that her Moon was the one that caused the Giant Impact, whereas Adam's simply "fell" to Earth. The "scrolls" shown in #23' depicting the embryonic Apostles are in a rather intact-looking tome, but the one other glimpse we get of the "SDSS" doesn't look quite as happy.
Oh, right. NGE2 basically spells out all of these deeply hidden plot elements in plain words (even though you can more or less find them for yourself in the show if you're very, very, VERY tenacious and have WAY too much free time). And one interesting thing it drops is that the FAR themselves PLANNED for the possibility that their Messengers (Angels) would want to engage in some form of Instrumentality (the definition of which seems a bit broader than I'd been advocating earlier) for themselves. And their little "guides" were designed to accomodate any religion that might have been developed by one of their successors.
Like the Lilim.
Very fascinating stuff... Holds enormous implications for at least two different parties, but I'm not going to go off ranting about that, because you know what happens then.
would Adam have a Spear too?
The Spears and the battle between Adam and Lilith is covered extensively in the Rei/Kaworu/Everything thread, so I'll let you slog through that marvel.
If the Scrolls explicitly mention the Apostles (and goes so far as to mention their names and order of birth), then why is Ireul (#11) missing?
Oh, just about the names, I was probably high (on Christmas cookies) when I wrote that, so let me correct myself: Seele are the ones who were doing the naming. Adam and Lilith would obviously have names of their own that are NOT "Adam" and "Lilith", but there would be no way for Seele to determine the pronunciation of the FAR's language (short of asking Adam and Lilith, which they apparently didn't bother to do). Since they actually managed to decipher the Scrolls, the Seeds' names (and those of other things, like the Spears) would be recognizable on a visual basis, but Seele had to just make stuff up for any proper nouns. And, since they're religious nuts...
* This is established with Yui evolving into Eva, a second-generation SoL, apparently to satisfy "family obligation" even if Seele were ready to blow it off. Note Kozo's lines about how the ultimate purpose of humankind was to create Eva. Reminds me of how the ultimate purpose of an organism is to propagate its genes...
Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 22:35 GMT
- Reichu [ANF]
- Angel
- Posts: 3651
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
According to Seele Iruel wasn't part of their plan from the DSS...
I'll look at the relevant lines more closely sometime, but I don't think the implications are that Ireul wasn't supposed to show up at all. They're all just like, "Grumble grumble grumble outside of the schedule grumble grumble." Not sure what the full implications are, but I haven't put Ireul under the magnifying glass yet, so I'm not going to jump to any conclusions.
I suppose it depends on when the forms are decided on. If the Apostles didn't come up with a form to take until the Quickening right before their hatching (which is the impression I got from reading some of your stuff), then who knows. If the forms had already been determined before Adam spewed everyone out during 2I...
"Spewed"? ::p "Where do little eggs come from, come from...?" "Squirted" might be a little more appropro, although it depends on how big they are when they come out. Well, take measurements of Adam's hips, estimate how much space she has down there, and... And you say "during 2I", but all implications are that Adam laid her eggs before Lilith showed up and challenged her counterpart to a duel.
Oh, the Quickening is just supposed to refer to the Magical Moment. However they decide on their forms is an entirely mysterious matter, but they probably muse over it for a while. That their forms are self-determined is indirectly implied in the show itself. Listen to all of the weird stuff in #26 and #26' about "imagining yourself", remember that Adam's kids are people, too, and think about their intrinsic nature and the whole "alternate possibilties" thing. I'm going to explore all of that metabiology stuff and how it applies to the Apostles at some point, but not now. Meantime, at least give it some thought.
though, then there's no reason why Armi couldn't have found out her siblings' forms then. Snooping on your siblings when you're still in the womb...?
They didn't get their souls until the day of Second Impact, and they were separated immediately afterwards, so that doesn't really work.
The alternative, of Armi collecting her siblings souls and literrally trying to resurrect all fourteen of them through Eva-00, does sound a bit silly- although it would certainly produce an "Oh fsck we're screwed" reaction from Nerv if it had worked
How is it "silly"? It accounts for every last thing going on there, as far as I can tell.
I haven't read this Imaginary Monoliths thread (I mostly just contained my reading to the Go Hikari thread for a while, I didn't even know there was a flame war til after the fact), but if you're implying what I think you are...
I'm not sure; what do you think I'm implying?
By the way, would this idea be at all responsible for your Akira theory, or vice versa? Ironfoot's the guy who got me started on NGE, and a while back he was telling me about his "Misato was the test subject with Adam that caused 2I" idea. It came to mind as soon as I read your stuff about Akira.
Have you read the Adam's Embryo thread? (Starting in Xmas 2005, namely.) There are a lot of IMO completely unfounded assumptions regarding Misato's presence in Antarctica, and they all completely fail to take Dr. Katsuragi's character – not to mention the full scope of the hints we're given about Second Impact! – into account. Just to summarize: Daddy was the one doing the deed, and Misato was just a spectator. The scar, despite being big and nasty, is actually rather light damage considering what happened to everybody else, including Akira, when things started going to Hell. You can clearly see in #12 that her father has gotten it much, much worse, which offers up some implications about that "sacrifice" that occurred behind the scenes.
A lot of folks busted me up over in that thread, but offhand I can't think of anything that hasn't panned out. I'll be sharing subsequent findings that have sealed the deal -- as if there was any question in my mind in the first place -- when things are ready. Actually, I'll probably just tackle the KKKK completely from scratch, with its own thread, since the Good Doctor (flawed as he is) deserves a lot more attention than he's gotten. And Kaworu's importance to Misato's story apparently hasn't gotten any!! (Prior to Reichu and her "bravado", anyway.) Goodness gracious me.
But, yeah. Read, and remember that more is on the way. And ignore any apologetic behavior on my part over there, because by the time this is over I'm going to be the one doing the spanking!
(Wow, I picked a heck of a thread to make a first post in...)
Gotta start somewhere!
Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 22:38 GMT
- Scutilla [ANF]
- Embryo
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
Reichu wrote:And when you have all of that technology, you make EVERYthing REAL-LY big. Why? Because you can.
I can buy that
Reichu wrote:We don't know if the SDSS were both the same. I personally don't think they were duplicates of one another, although my thoughts aren't very organized right this moment, sooo...
Well then, I may as well ask the question I stopped myself from asking- what DID happen to Lilith's version of the Scrolls?
Reichu wrote:The Spears and the battle between Adam and Lilith is covered extensively in the Rei/Kaworu/Everything thread, so I'll let you slog through that marvel.
I did, although my post in that thread is in regards to the more controversial topic of that thread But yeah, after reading the thread I get the jist.
Reichu wrote:Oh, just about the names, I was probably high (on Christmas cookies) when I wrote that, so let me correct myself: Seele are the ones who were doing the naming. Adam and Lilith would obviously have names of their own that are NOT "Adam" and "Lilith", but there would be no way for Seele to determine the pronunciation of the FAR's language (short of asking Adam and Lilith, which they apparently didn't bother to do). Since they actually managed to decipher the Scrolls, the Seeds' names (and those of other things, like the Spears) would be recognizable on a visual basis, but Seele had to just make stuff up for any proper nouns. And, since they're religious nuts...
No, that's not you being high on cookies, that's me being stupid and assuming that the names were from the Scrolls. (And you know what they say about (censored word)-u-me-ing...)
Reichu wrote:I'll look at the relevant lines more closely sometime, but I don't think the implications are that Ireul wasn't supposed to show up at all. They're all just like, "Grumble grumble grumble outside of the schedule grumble grumble." Not sure what the full implications are, but I haven't put Ireul under the magnifying glass yet, so I'm not going to jump to any conclusions.
Again, I don't have my copy of the series yet, so I have no way of looking up stuff to confirm that I'm not just pulling stuff outta my arse. If/when I get to rewatch that episode and find that something is amiss, I'll bring it up again.
Reichu wrote:
Yeah, I figured that you had already eliminated that possibility. There's a lot of stuff here to absorb, and the Quickening was one of the things that didn't fully make it in yet.
I suppose "spew" was a poor choice of words, too... but you get my drift.
Reichu wrote:I'm not sure; what do you think I'm implying?
Never mind, I'll just go read the thread for myself.
[quote="Reichu"]
I don't recall a whole lot about Ironfoot's theory, and I haven't read your Akira stuff either, so I don't know how well either of them jive. Ironfoot knows I posted here, maybe he'll actually come out and re-explain his idea.
Alright, I'm done for now- I'll try to plow through some of these threads I've missed once my brain sorts out some of the existing stuff
Originally posted on: 10-Feb-2006, 00:29 GMT
- Reichu [ANF]
- Angel
- Posts: 3651
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
Scutilla wrote:I can buy that
You no like Carl Jung? I'm pretty sure Anno did. Well, he sure dug his psychology, anyhow.
Well then, I may as well ask the question I stopped myself from asking- what DID happen to Lilith's version of the Scrolls?
You missed the self-quote in the first half of my reply?
Alright, I'm done for now- I'll try to plow through some of these threads I've missed once my brain sorts out some of the existing stuff
Unless you're one of those photographic memory people, I wouldn't imagine that full osmosis could possibly occur on a first "plow-through". A lot of the ideas from earlier have since corrected themselves, as well, so fear nay. If something is really important and later conversation indicates that a point was missed, I just go and dig up whatever is still relevant. "READ THIS BITCHES. If you already read it, read it again." Or, if I am feeling lazy, "Do a search for yadda yadda yadda; we already talked about this..."
Originally posted on: 10-Feb-2006, 02:07 GMT
- Reichu [ANF]
- Angel
- Posts: 3651
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
Reply to off-topic conversation here. You know, just in case people actually follow my lead. You never know.
With the latter, are you talking about EVA-02?
You could apply this principle to justify a lot of wacked-out theories. "Is there any proof that Pen^2 doesn't have phenomenal cosmic powers?" "Is there any proof that Maya and Hikari aren't lesbian lovers?" Negative proof (or whatever it's called) is not proof in and of itself.
Oh yes. And NGE doesn't give you much in the way of even positive "proof". You haven't realized this by now?
There's no reason to think that Rei has a core. She was made from Yui juice, i.e., genetically based on Yui. The core is not a body part that Yui 1.0 possessed.
If the above comment inspires you to bring up the pigmentation differences, that's metaphysical biology territory.
Lilith could have one; she's innately a FAR giant, like Adam, albeit a rather weird one. (I've posited a possible reason for this, though.) It depends on whether or not the FAR themselves had cores, or if they were engineered into the Adam line to contain the S^2K, or something. My own thought is that the cores did originate with the first humans. Although we obviously have no way whatsoever of knowing, the core's status as an erogenous zone -- among other things -- does raise my suspicions.
But then why, if Lilith is a FAR giant, wouldn't she have a visible one? Everyone else of even vaguely humanoid form, unless Lilim DNA is involved, has a visible core in the solar plexus region: Adam, the Evas, Sachiel, Zeruel, Israfel.
In any case, this matter is not extremely important, as far as I can tell, but the odds are at least against Rei, unless you feel inclined to grasp at straws.
Originally posted on: 12-Feb-2006, 08:21 GMT
Monkey Boy wrote:Some of the Angels' and Evas' cores aren't visible
With the latter, are you talking about EVA-02?
The question is "Is there any proof they don't?".
You could apply this principle to justify a lot of wacked-out theories. "Is there any proof that Pen^2 doesn't have phenomenal cosmic powers?" "Is there any proof that Maya and Hikari aren't lesbian lovers?" Negative proof (or whatever it's called) is not proof in and of itself.
Oh yes. And NGE doesn't give you much in the way of even positive "proof". You haven't realized this by now?
There's no reason to think that Rei has a core. She was made from Yui juice, i.e., genetically based on Yui. The core is not a body part that Yui 1.0 possessed.
If the above comment inspires you to bring up the pigmentation differences, that's metaphysical biology territory.
Lilith could have one; she's innately a FAR giant, like Adam, albeit a rather weird one. (I've posited a possible reason for this, though.) It depends on whether or not the FAR themselves had cores, or if they were engineered into the Adam line to contain the S^2K, or something. My own thought is that the cores did originate with the first humans. Although we obviously have no way whatsoever of knowing, the core's status as an erogenous zone -- among other things -- does raise my suspicions.
But then why, if Lilith is a FAR giant, wouldn't she have a visible one? Everyone else of even vaguely humanoid form, unless Lilim DNA is involved, has a visible core in the solar plexus region: Adam, the Evas, Sachiel, Zeruel, Israfel.
In any case, this matter is not extremely important, as far as I can tell, but the odds are at least against Rei, unless you feel inclined to grasp at straws.
Originally posted on: 12-Feb-2006, 08:21 GMT
- Ornette [ANF]
- Gaghiel
- Posts: 370
- Joined: Oct 23, 2007
Question about Lilith, didn't know where else to put this...
I still don't have my copies of NGE, and my reference copies are still on a laptop harddrive that chose to eat its own heads, so I can't check this out myself. Happened to be at a local bar and got the owner to let me change the channel on the TV to Adult Swim and watched the NGE episode that was on.
Right after Kaji opens the door revealing Lilith, there were a few panning shots of Lilith on the cross. There was one shot from above that showed her head, kinda bowed down, and I *think* I saw (it could just be the alcohol) a bunch of wires or tubes coming out of the back of Lilith's head and either going into the cross or going down her back. Again, I can't verify this, but if they were there, could this have something to do with why Lilith is made to bleed LCL? It didn't look like there were any tubes or whatever when Lilith removed herself from the cross in EoE.
Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2006, 08:18 GMT
I still don't have my copies of NGE, and my reference copies are still on a laptop harddrive that chose to eat its own heads, so I can't check this out myself. Happened to be at a local bar and got the owner to let me change the channel on the TV to Adult Swim and watched the NGE episode that was on.
Right after Kaji opens the door revealing Lilith, there were a few panning shots of Lilith on the cross. There was one shot from above that showed her head, kinda bowed down, and I *think* I saw (it could just be the alcohol) a bunch of wires or tubes coming out of the back of Lilith's head and either going into the cross or going down her back. Again, I can't verify this, but if they were there, could this have something to do with why Lilith is made to bleed LCL? It didn't look like there were any tubes or whatever when Lilith removed herself from the cross in EoE.
Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2006, 08:18 GMT
- Mr. Tines [ANF]
- Bardiel
- Posts: 787
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
- Reichu [ANF]
- Angel
- Posts: 3651
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
Tis on Ye Olde FGC: http://www.evageeks.org/images...ork_15_C278.gif
I put up random groundwork (= drawings from which the cels were produced) over here a few weeks ago. So that's where you'll find them.
I don't know where the tubing went later on. Probably the same Dirac Sea that swallowed the Evas' brachial doodads in the movie. Or the same place as Lilith's faux-nipples from another close-up in the same scene (#15), except IMO tubing with ports labeled "LCL" actually make sense when all is said and done.
Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2006, 00:18 GMT
I put up random groundwork (= drawings from which the cels were produced) over here a few weeks ago. So that's where you'll find them.
I don't know where the tubing went later on. Probably the same Dirac Sea that swallowed the Evas' brachial doodads in the movie. Or the same place as Lilith's faux-nipples from another close-up in the same scene (#15), except IMO tubing with ports labeled "LCL" actually make sense when all is said and done.
Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2006, 00:18 GMT
- Seele08 [ANF]
- Matarael
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
Some of the ports say LCL with a number and others say some indecipherple stuff. Maybe some were just some form of nutrients to sustain her somewhat....or chocolate for when they started to roast the giant marshmelllow lady! Now to find the graham crackers that size....
Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2006, 00:31 GMT
Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2006, 00:31 GMT
- AsukaxSohryux [ANF]
- Lilith
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
Seele08 wrote:Some of the ports say LCL with a number and others say some indecipherple stuff. Maybe some were just some form of nutrients to sustain her somewhat....or chocolate for when they started to roast the giant marshmelllow lady! Now to find the graham crackers that size....
I beleive the cords attached to Liliths neck is a way to sedate her. Seele08 always makes people laugh , giant smores mmmmmmm.
Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2006, 00:35 GMT
- shadowwriterx [ANF]
- Embryo
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
- Reichu [ANF]
- Angel
- Posts: 3651
- Joined: Oct 19, 2007
Return to “AnimeNation Archive”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests