What Gendou said to Ritsuko: Solved? (seriously)

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

As I've spent a lot of time watching, and re-watching, Evangelion, one thing that I've started to really notice is the way that the director Anno goes out of his way to link scenes that have some thematic or plot-related connection by including subtle (and not-so-subtle) visual cues, as hints to the audience to make the intended connection in their mind. That is, you notice in scene A some paticular detail that makes you pause, and go 'hmm, where have I seen this before'; you then go back and look at scene B, and say 'aha!', as as you see the same detail, which usualy indicates that scene B involves some plot point which turns out to be relevant to scene A. Anno resorts to this technique over and over, throughout the series; indeed the entire series is, in a sense, woven together this way. It is especially noticeable in the way that scenes in EoE often reference the new or modified scenes in the Director's Cut episodes.
It has been my experience that most, if not all, of the most cryptic scenes in EVA can be be 'solved' by availing myself of the hints and clues that Anno provides in this manner. The most imfamous 'unsolvable' mystery in EVA is, of course, 'What does Gendou say to Ritsuko?': It is my contention that there is, in fact, one of these visual references in the scene, which ties it to a relevant scene in Ep23', in a way that may at least give us a hint at what Gendou actually said, and what Ritsuko was thinking when she said "Liar..."
First, tho, in order to establish in your minds the necessary context of Anno's directoral technique that I'm talking about, allow me to offer a couple examples:

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...hen_Montage.jpg
This little montage illustrates the rather obvious (and, in terms of its significance to the story, hugely important) connection between the scene in Ep24' where Shinji tells Asuka that Kaji is dead, the shot in D&R where we see Asuka's devastated reaction to that news, and the 'Kitchen Scene' during the Instrumentality Sequence in Ep26'. (Examining the meaning of the connection of these scenes deserves its own topic, which I will get around to one of these days...)

My second example is a case of where they went and modified a scene in the Director's Cut to set up a thematically related scene in EoE. Here is the scene as it originally appears in Ep23:
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Rei_Ep23.jpg

and here is the modified version in Ep23':
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...i_Ep23.jpg

People's faces look different in the DC and EoE, it's seems like the characters were subtly re-designed between for the new material...
In the first shot we see Rei looking at herself in the mirror, probably wondering what a person has to do to die and stay dead around here... The important shot is the next one, where Rei gives a very cold, sidelong look at Gendou's glasses. This sets up the scene in Ep25' where Gendou come for Rei down in Terminal Dogma:
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit..._Ep25b.jpg

Here we see a similar shot of Rei looking at what's left of her 'other selves' in the Reiquarium. She hears Gendou approaching, and turns to regard him with that same cold, unsympathetic, sidelong look. Gendou is in for a rude surprise, he just doesn't know it yet... The resemblance between these two scenes ,in Ep23' and Ep25', is even more apparent than suggested by these screencaps; if you watch them one after the other the similarities in the way they're edited really stand out.

Originally posted on: 24-Sep-2003, 15:22 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Hopefully those examples were sufficient to give you an idea how Anno uses visual concurrences to link scene together. So, let us procede to look at how this applies to Ritsuko and Gendou.
First, let's look at the scene in which Ritsuko is interrogated by SEELE. Here is how it appears in the original Ep23:
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...p23_SEELE01.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...p23_SEELE02.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...p23_SEELE03.jpg

and in Ep23':
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...39;_SEELE01.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...39;_SEELE02.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...39;_SEELE03.jpg

The first thing that stands out in the modified version is the way that the fact that Ritsuko is being forced to stand naked before these leering old farts is emphasized; in the first shot, her distress at this indignity is a bit more apparent. There is simply NO reason (aside from intimidation) for Ritsuko to have to be naked to be interrogated (do I need to point out that they didn't force Fuyutsuki to strip?); this is simply a case of these filthy old geezers availing themselves of the opportunity to scope out the 'action' their erstwhile pal Ikari-kun has been getting.
Here is a comparison of the scene that follows shortly of Ritsuko on the escalator:
(Ep23)
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...alator_Ep23.jpg

(Ep23')
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...r_Ep23.jpg

In the Ep23 version, Ritsuko's face isn't animated at all; she has the same blank look on her face thru the whole shot. In Ep23', her face is subtly, but very effectively animated. There is a hint of all sorts of dark emotions playing on her face as she contemplates how she has been betrayed and humiliated by Gendou; it looks like she is supressing the urge to scream. (It's hard to capture with screencaps the way her eyebrows are twitching etc; you have to watch the scene to really appreciate how much more effective it is. It anticipates very nicely the way she is going to flip out later in Ep23'...)

Originally posted on: 24-Sep-2003, 15:23 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Having thus set the stage, let's take a look now at the scene in Ep25' between Ritsuko and Gendou:

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...#39;_Liar01.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...#39;_Liar02.jpg
My intent, in composing these two images together, is to suggest that what Gendou may have said at this point was to deny that he had anything to do with her being interrogated by SEELE (which would be, of course, a flat lie).
(on a side note, what is translated as "I truly..." is, in Japanese, "honto ni...", which means 'in reality' or simply 'really'; it is an assumption to suppose that the subject of the 'unspoken' sentence is necessarily the pronoun I...)

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...#39;_Liar03.jpg
The look on Ritsuko's face in this reaction shot indicates that she (for a second, at least) is totally taken aback by what Gendou said. Everything that Ritsuko has done, both in Ep23':

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...#39;_Liar04.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...#39;_Liar05.jpg

not to mention what she has just been up to in Ep25':

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...#39;_Liar06.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...#39;_Liar07.jpg

has been in reaction to her being f*** over by Gendou, moreover, f*** over in favor of Rei; if that wasn't true, then she has just made, to put it mildly, an enormous *** of herself.
Or, as she herself put it a bit earlier in Ep25':

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...#39;_Liar08.jpg

Originally posted on: 24-Sep-2003, 15:24 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Ritsuko thinks about it for a sec...
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...#39;_Liar09.jpg

(Needless to say, I don't think the apparent concurrence of these two images is a coincidence; it is the point of this whole post that the obvious resemblence, not merely in the expression on her face, but the fact that her face is framed and lit in exactly the same way, is deliberate, and is designed to indicate that she is going back in her mind to what SEELE told her in ep23'.)

and announces whom she believes...
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...39;_Liar10a.jpg

Originally posted on: 24-Sep-2003, 15:25 GMT

[Asuka 96018 [ANF]]

I like your reasoning. And I want to see that Asuka & Shinji scene analyzed too.

(Examining the meaning of the connection of these scenes deserves its own topic, which I will get around to one of these days...)

Originally posted on: 24-Sep-2003, 18:05 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

I very much like your presentation. It is damn convincing.

However I have only one problem with it. That being, why would Gendo lie? The end has come, he does not need her anymore, he has no reason to lie to her. Whats more, I don't think it is in Gendo's character to lie to spare some ones feelings. Laying to SEELE is no problem, but why lie to Ritsuko? It seems to serve no purpose.

[wacked out theory] That is unless, he really had nothing to do with it. That it is possible SEELE lied to her and fabricated the story that Gendo sent her to fracture the unity of Nerv (It obviously worked). [/wacked out theory]

I am not saying Gnedo would not do such a thing (In fact I don't even think I belive my own little theory), I just find it hard to believe he would lie to Ritsuko to spare her feelings. (That is unless he really cared about her, but I find that even harder to believe)


(Like I said though damn convincing presentation.)

Originally posted on: 25-Sep-2003, 08:30 GMT

['D' [ANF]]

......Wow.

Very nice, very nice indeed. In fact, you have opened up a whole world to us by letting us in on this scene comparison thing. I't seems that a lot of the bigger misterys might be able to be solved using this... Ill have to try it and find out .

Originally posted on: 24-Sep-2003, 23:04 GMT

[Siendra [ANF]]

Well, you've done it again. This is an excellent, well composed and thought out theory. Very convincing aswell.

Keep it up.

Originally posted on: 24-Sep-2003, 23:18 GMT

[GandalfsWhisper [ANF]]

Wow, that's definatly the best guess at what Gendo said I've ever heard.

Originally posted on: 25-Sep-2003, 00:35 GMT

[Gundampilotspaz [ANF]]

What I have drawn from this is Gendo must of said something like "In reality your not Rei's replacement." That is what I think Shin-seiki wanted us to think. Now we know Gendo has compassion from the scean before his death in Ep.26'. So he could be sparing her feelings. But why Rei, what does Rei really matter in the relationship between Ritsuko and Gendo? How could Ritsokui replace Rei? She can't. Looking into facts from Evangelion that are common knowlege I have come to the ultimate decision that Gendo's lasts words to Ritsuko are

"In reality, you were not just Yui's replacement."

Then Ritsuko's last words:

"Lair"

Originally posted on: 25-Sep-2003, 00:53 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

but gendo himself told "i'll present something else to the old man of seele. there's no problem". (in the DC scenes... posted above)

Damn, one of these days I am going to have to learn how to read....

Originally posted on: 26-Sep-2003, 08:08 GMT

[saiyajin prince [ANF]]

but gendo himself told "i'll present something else to the old man of seele. there's no problem". (in the DC scenes... posted above)

unless he meant Rei 3 that he wants to present.

i don't think that SEELE knew about Rei being a clone....


Nice job Shin Seiki!!

Originally posted on: 25-Sep-2003, 22:41 GMT

[Ter'al [ANF]]

Does renewal include DC scenes?

Originally posted on: 28-Sep-2003, 08:54 GMT

[Crazy Penguin [ANF]]

It has both versions.

Originally posted on: 27-Sep-2003, 21:54 GMT

[Ter'al [ANF]]

Well theres my reason to import it.

Originally posted on: 27-Sep-2003, 22:01 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

First off, I would like to thank all of you for your positive feedback on my my humble efforts. I think that the level of discussion is higher and more sophisticated here than on any other EVA-related forum or newsgroup that I've seen, and I like to do my part to keep it that way.

I like your reasoning. And I want to see that Asuka & Shinji scene analyzed too.

Patience, grasshopper... It's in the pipeline, but I have a lot of other presentations like this one lined up (in my mind, that is), so it may take a while before that topic sees the light of day.

I very much like your presentation. It is damn convincing.

However I have only one problem with it. That being, why would Gendo lie? The end has come, he does not need her anymore, he has no reason to lie to her. Whats more, I don't think it is in Gendo's character to lie to spare some ones feelings. Laying to SEELE is no problem, but why lie to Ritsuko? It seems to serve no purpose.

[wacked out theory] That is unless, he really had nothing to do with it. That it is possible SEELE lied to her and fabricated the story that Gendo sent her to fracture the unity of Nerv (It obviously worked). [/wacked out theory]

I am not saying Gnedo would not do such a thing (In fact I don't even think I belive my own little theory), I just find it hard to believe he would lie to Ritsuko to spare her feelings. (That is unless he really cared about her, but I find that even harder to believe)


(Like I said though damn convincing presentation.)

tv33 makes a couple good points here. Actually, I'm surprised there wasn't more vigorous attempts from the rest of you to knock holes in this theory; it is far from airtight, and tv33 has zeroed in on two weakness of the argument that have also troubled me since I posted this a few days ago.
For one thing, I'm not really satisfied by the idea that what Gendou said would be such a bald-faced, obvious lie. I can't shake the feeling that there has got to be more to it than that.
Secondly, I think that tv33 is really onto something big with his notion that SEELE was trying to set Ritsuko against Gendou for their own nefarious purposes; that aspect of his theory isn't wacked out at all, but is actually a crucial insight into what is really going on here. (More on that later.)

Any serious attempt at figuring out what Gendou actually says must take into account the following factors:

1) It must be short, and to the point; Gendous 'mouth flaps' last only a couple seconds.

2) It must be something that would credibly produce a reaction like this:

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...#39;_Liar03.jpg
In other words, something that would hit her like a ton of bricks, and leave her (momentarily) stunned and speechless...

3) If my theory is correct ( i.e., that there is a subtle visual hint that she is going back in her mind to when SEELE told her "It was none other than Ikari-kun who presented you to us..."), then what Gendou says should be something that would logically predicate her thinking about that, and then saying "Liar".

If we can come up with something to say that meets all these criteria, then I think we may come as close as anyone can hope to definitively solving this 'unsolvable' mystery. But remember what Yuriko Yamaguchi (Ritsuko's seiyuu) said about Gendou's 'unspoken' line: "When it came time to do the voice-over, he (Anno) showed me a single, hidden hint at the last moment._ With that one incredible hint, I, and Ritsuko Akagi, were utterly defeated." That story (if true) kind of sets the bar pretty high for any possible guess at what Gendou says, in other words, it can't be something lame or inane; it has to pack a real punch...

One very important point about the line "Liar" that must be taken into account is that it doesn't necessarily imply that what Gendou said is actually untrue. In connection with that idea, I think it is usefull to go back and take a look at the other big "Liar" moment in the series, which when Shinji tells Asuka that Kaji is dead:

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/DnR-Liar.jpg
This is Asuka's reaction to the line "How many times do I have to say it?! Kaji-san's not here anymore!" by Shinji. Now, what Shinji just said is certainly true; Asuka says "Liar" because it is something too terrible for her mind to accept.
(There is another big "Liar" moment, of course; the one in Ep26' in the Instumentality 'Kitchen Scene', but that may be considered as a reflection of the one in 'real life' in Ep24')

It is instructive, I think, to look at Asuka's "Liar", and Ritsuko's reaction shot side-by- side:
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...uka-Ritsuko.jpg

I think we should consider that the fact that Asuka and Ritsuko both have the same look on their face may be an indication that something similar is going on on both scenes, namely that they've both just heard something that their minds find impossible to accept.

There is a scene that is incredibly relevant to all of this, that I failed to properly take into account when I formulated my theory as it appears in the initial post; namely the scene in Ep24 where Gendou talks to Ritsuko in her holding cell. This scene is the only time we see any interaction between the two from the time Ritsuko flips out in Ep23 to their final confrontation in Ep25', so it stands to reason that we should scrutinize this scene for any clues as to what is really going on between the two of them.
Let's go thru this scene line by line. I think it usefull to try to look at this scene from Gendou's POV as it plays out:
--
Somewhat disconcertingly, Ritsuko starts off babbling inanely about her cat
Ritsuko: Commander Ikari,
My cat died,
which my grandma had been taking care of.
I hadn't been taking care of it for a long time.
Suddenly now, I cannot see it again.

Gendou brushes that off, and gets to the point:
Gendou: Why did you destroy the Dummy System?

Ritsuko makes no bones about the homicidal intent of her actions
Ritsuko: It's not the Dummy System, but Rei who I destroyed.

Gendou tries again to bring the conversation back 'on-topic'
Gendou: I ask you once more.
Why?!

Ritsuko: Now, I'm not happy even if you hold me.
You can do anything you like to my body,
as you did before.
WTF! Is she on crack?! Does she think that he has dropped by her cell for a little 'Afternoon Delight' or something?!

Gendou: I'm disappointed by you.
His standard line he uses on those (like Shinji in Ep19) who show evidence of having a mind of their own, and an unwillingness to behave like puppets in carrying out his schemes. (I'm surprised he doesn't use it on Rei, when she takes off for Lilith without him in Ep26'...)

Ritsuko: Disappointed?
You have neither expectations nor hopes for me.
I have, nothing, nothing ...
what shall I do, mom.?
Whatever... Gendou must come away from that interview thinking the poor woman has completely lost her mind.
--
Interestingly, there is an absolutely crucial clue contained in this scene that has been staring us all in the face. The part of this scene that is especially revealing to what is going on between the two of them in Ep25' is not Ritsuko's answers, but Gendou's question:

Gendou: Why did you destroy the Dummy System?

Gendou: I ask you once more.
Why?!

Now Gendou isn't stupid; even such a non people-person as he should be able to figure out that the outrageous and humiliating experience she suffered at the hands of SEELE is what set her off...
So... the reason he asks her (twice) why she flipped out is because [drum roll...]
He genuinely doesn't know!

Originally posted on: 28-Sep-2003, 15:17 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

So, what does that mean?
We know for a fact that Gendou did send Ritsuko to SEELE:

(Ep23)
Gendou: I'll send something else to the old men of SEELE. It's not a problem.

His reason for doing so, while hardly commendable, was certainly understandable; under no circumstances would he allow those wily, wicked old farts a crack at his precious Rei (who was, after all, a bit confused and rattled, having just been reborn yet again as Rei III. Similarly, Misato refused to let SEELE interrogate Shinji).

Therefore, logically we can conclude that it wasn't the fact that Ritsuko was interrogated that escaped his comprehension, but the circumstances under which the interrogation took place that he didn't know about.

In my original post I dimissed the whole business of Ritsuko's humiliation by being stripped as a matter of SEELE being a bunch of dirty old men; I realize now that that is silly, that I, like Gendou, failed to take into account just how clever and fiendish those old creeps were. They're the most powerfull men in the world; they didn't get that way thru any over-abundance of scrupples.
So, Ritsuko suddenly finds herself wisked off, without notice, for an little chat with the big bosses, and, as I indicated above, she looks none too happy with this turn of events, (particularly the naked part):

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...39;_SEELE01.jpg

Then the old men spring their trap:

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Rit...39;_SEELE03.jpg

Ritsuko is being cleverly, but ruthlessly manipulated here, not by being told a lie, but by being told the truth, because in this situation the truth ("However, it was none other than Ikari-kun that presented you to us...") is much more effective for SEELE's purpose than any lie they could come up with.
She is naturally going to blame Gendou for this outrage (there isn't much point in her blaming SEELE, because they are quite beyond the reach of anything she could do to get back at them; Gendou, on the other hand...)

So, why is SEELE trying to 'flip' Ritsuko, and turn her against Gendou? I suspect that it's because there is something they want to know, and they suspect she might be able to help them out. That some thing was the answer to the question: What became of the "Adam sample' that Kaji delivered to Gendou?
(SEELE, of course, knows perfectly well that the being on the cross in Terminal Dogma is Lilith)
By Ep24' they know the answer:

SEELE 01:
(Speaking to Kaworu)
But 'our' hopes are materializing...

SEELE:
In Lilith, progenitor of humanity - the false successors from the Black Moon...

SEELE:
And in Adam, progenitor of Angels - the true successors from the lost White Moon.

SEELE:
And whose salvaged soul resides only within you...

SEELE 01:
But whose revived body is already inside Ikari.

How did they come by this info? Because they succeeded in 'turning' Ritsuko, and she sang like a bird...

Well, I would like to hear some more feedback from you all on all of this. I think if we put our heads to gether we can solve the mystery of what Gendou actually said. I think, if you take my theory as stated in the previous post, and include the additional factors that I've outlined here, that we're getting pretty close to the truth...

Originally posted on: 28-Sep-2003, 15:18 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

Well, this is all my tiny brain can think of.

1.) As was stated and sheds light on things, Gendo genuinely might not know.

So this could lead to him say "Truly, I did not know." (Referring to the whole SEELE incident)

And we all say well we know that is a possibility. But the liar part is important. Perhaps it hits her like a ton of bricks because she knows it is true. And she has been undermining him the whole time (and was going to blow the place to smithereens).

And as the cold truth sets in, she is awe struck, and unable or unwilling to belive it she says "Liar."

Originally posted on: 28-Sep-2003, 15:55 GMT

[Gundampilotspaz [ANF]]

So no one thought my theroy was good

Originally posted on: 28-Sep-2003, 16:39 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I'm still wondering, though... What in Helad was the whole point of Ritsuko getting nekkid in front of those dirty old men? If SEELE had gotten to interrogate Shinji or Rei-III, would they have gotten to stand there bare-bottomed, as well?

It's even more suspicious due to my belief that Keel Lorenz is a homosexual, but nevermind that.

Originally posted on: 28-Sep-2003, 18:30 GMT