Shinji and Asuka

[Magami No ER [ANF]]

^Shinji is a little repessed, certainly not prudish....."GIMME SEX!"
Sorry, had to.
Frigid...hmmm...

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 00:04 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Oh... you mean, this?



Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 00:22 GMT

[Magami No ER [ANF]]

^Pricisly.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 00:24 GMT

[Treize X [ANF]]

^ I think I know where you're going with that frigid comment...

I would still say it was the way Kaworu treated him from the very begining, mixed in with the fact that he was attractive..

...The boy is definitely attractive. After all, he's made me question my sexuality. *looks around and sees the board members stare*

What?

Anyway, I personally prefer to think Shinji is heterosexual, and one of the only reasons Kaworu got close to him was because he was a boy, not a woman or girl, whom he'd have trouble dealing with. If the conversation with Kaji about understanding the opposite sex has a relation to this, it's obvious to see...

Kensuke and Touji did the same thing in their own way, I guess. They apparently didn't get as close to Shinji as Kaworu (or did they? I wonder...) so the relationships didn't have the same effect on Shinji (although I wonder about Touji, since it seemed he got to the inner Shinji...).

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 00:32 GMT

[OMF [ANF]]

Ok, getting back on track.

Problem number one in your reasoning: you THINK that Asuka desires an unbeatable Shinji. There is very little evidence to support such a statement and what little evidence you do give is very abstract. Trying to prove a characters feelings simply through their gestures is hard enough, but trying to prove it when their speech indicates a contrary feeling is even more difficult. In the passage, Asuka clearly indicates that she does not like the undefeatable Shinji. Whatever gestures she does use is up for interperation. So what do you think would be more reasonable to believe: that Asuka did not want an unbeatable Shinji through the obvious use of sarcasm in her voice or that Asuka does want an unbeatable Shinji simply because she used some gestures, which could in fact could have meant nothing at all? I'll stick with the sarcasm.

I haven't been very clear in my argument for Asuka's desire for "Unbeatable Shinji-sama". By gestures, I meant that corny little jig she dances while she's "singing his praises". It's just so hammy!
I will elaborate on how I view Asuka's desiring for Shinji soon, but for now I will say this. if Asuka desired Shinji in any way, then it unlikely she desired the meek and timid Shinji present 99% of the time. That said she always wanted someone to dominate, but I think domination of such a wretch would have been unsatisfiying for Asuka.

I think this must have been my third time stating this, but Shinji DOES NOT DISAPPROVE OF SEXUAL MATTERS. You try to use the attempted kiss in episode 9 to support this when there is NO indication whatsoever that Shinji does not approve of it. He calls Asuka a child and that was it. I REPEAT, NO FEELING OF REMORSE OR DISGUST. Also, Shinji knew exactly what he was doing in that scene, so blaming the attempted kiss on his "repressed libido" is just ridiculous.

When Shinji becomes disgusted with himself after masturbating over Asuka, I would sincerely hope that he does have some feeling of disgust. I would feel disgusted with myself if I were to do that to someone I knew. But does that mean I "supress my libido" and disapprove of sexual matters? Umm, no.

My thinking on Shinji's disapproval of sex is contained in the Shinji the Prude post. However the incidents you mention are important. I take these as moments when Shinji's pent up libido finally came crashing through, where his hormones finally overwhealmed him and he sought release. Perhaps the first is less obvious, but the second incident cannot be viewed in any other way! Why on earth would Shinji do that to Asuka in EoE? I'd argue it was because he had denied his sexual urges for so long that when finally he was presented with the bared, comatose Asuka, so willful had his bottled up urges become that he completely lost control, only to regain it in the instant after the deed was done, leading to his all consuming guilt and remourse.

What exactly is your point here? The entire purpose of the Superego is to try to repress the Id. It's the same for everyone (if you even believe in Freud's theory). Assuming we take Freud's arguement to be true, then I also contain a Superego and an Id. My Superego also denys and refuses inappropriate actions that the Id might have. EVERYONE'S Superego trys to override the the desires of Id. So trying to prove that Shinji disapproves of sexual desires simply because his Superego is trying to supress Id just doesn't work. Unless of course you firmly believe that everyone else on the planet disapproves of sexual matters the way you claim Shinji does.

I'm using this argument to basically say that there are two halves to Shinji. His body and his mind if you will. His mind denies his sexual urges, but his body demands them. he's drawn to Asuka as a senpai, yet repelled by his own lusts for her. You might say he is in a state of cognitative dissonance over Asuka, which he is unable to resolve.

I partially agree with you. These shots indicate thier rejection of Shinji. They are "looking down" at him in a literal and mental sense. But that is all it is, rejection. Shinji provides no indication that he sees Asuka as a father figure in these scenes.

What of his "Don't Abandon me!" pleas to her? The only person to ever abandon him was Gendou. There is a link here too I think. It all links Asuka's rejection of him at least, to Gendou's. Why would this link be there?

Shinji's hand reflex is used numerous times throughout the show. You would need to come up with a way to link all of the hand reflex scenes before I accept this as being a link between Asuka and Gendo.

The hand reflex is usually used to denote Shinji, gathering his confidence, to face up to something. Indeed, directly after his grasping in EoE, he faces up to Asuka, declaring how it is impossible for him to understand her, as she will not engage with him. Of course, as Asuka berates him for after, it was not her lack of engagement that was the problem, it was the manner of her engagement with him, i.e. on sexual terms.

She brought herself back right where Shinji is for a reason.

Yet she had utterly rejected him, both before and during complementation. Has she had such a sudden change of heart already?

As I said before, you are completely misjudging Shinji's attitude in these scenes. He is afraid of any sort of interaction with others. He sometimes even looks uncomfortable hanging out with Toji and Kensuke. He's not recoiling from Asuka out of prudishness, or because he finds her behavior offensive, but because he is frightened of starting a relationship with her.

This is also a part of it. However his prudishness is also a factor here. Once which Asuka becomes aware of.

The "Well done, Shinji" scene in ep. 12, and the cemetary scene in ep. 15 demonstrate that the father figure that Shinji is searching for is actually his father, not Asuka.

Absolutely. Any father figure will pale in comparision to Gendou. Yet Shinji can never get Gendou to accept him as a son, and eventually simply stops seeking Gendou's acceptance altogether, after the dummy plug incident. I'd argue then that he will seek out other father figures, and I think he may have stumbled, subconsciously onto Asuka.

His extreme timidity has triggered a disdainful reaction in both of them, shown by a similar look on their faces. In no way does this mean that because one is his father, the other is also his father.

The reasons for each rejection are quite different. Asuka rejected Shinji-kun the boy, for his timidity partially, and also for his lack of conscious desire for her sexually. Gendou however, rejected Shinji out of fear. He was afraid of Shinji, thinking he did not deserve or posess the capacity for human kindness. Shinji of course, knows nothing of eithers reasons. To him, both are the same rejection, equally inexplicable.

It's interesting that you make an incorrect point about Asuka, but then fail to make the same point about Misato in this scene when it would be correct. Shinji actually does see Misato as a surrogate parent, and this is why seeing her in this fashion upsets him.

There is more to his disgust at Misato's sexuality than this I think. I mentioned this in the "Prude" post.

Actually, by Shinji's standards this is an amazingly explicit confession of love

Precisely! By his standards! This is gold to Shinji, but little more than jaded brass to Asuka.
This is it. This is the farthest he will come out of his shell. It is poignant and sincere, no doubt about it. But clearly it is not enough for Asuka. He still will not hold her. And that is why she rejects him.

Oh... you mean, this?

Your argument is compelling, however, I will state my reluctance to move outside the original text as the reason for dismissing your insightful post.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 00:40 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Well, boys, judging by Shinji's spl00ge, how long was it since the last time he performed auto-sex?

(Okay, a stupid question, but girls get curious about these things.)

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 00:47 GMT

[OMF [ANF]]

Well, boys, judging by Shinji's spl00ge, how long was it since the last time he performed auto-sex?

Impossible to say. However now that you've brought it up..

Asuka:
Idiot! I 'know' about your jerk-off fantasies of me.
Do it again like usual... I'll even stand here and watch.

Fantasies.
Plural. Is this just a translation glitch, or is Asuka really just very shrewd?(or quiet!)

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 00:51 GMT

[Treize X [ANF]]

Well, boys, judging by Shinji's spl00ge, how long was it since the last time he performed auto-sex?

(Okay, a stupid question, but girls get curious about these things.)

...Hmm...I need to examine this. *thinks*

Not sure. Depends on the person, usually, so, IMO, could be anywhere from a week to a month or two.

...Don't ask how I know that.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 00:57 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Fantasies.
Plural. Is this just a translation glitch, or is Asuka really just very shrewd?(or quiet!)

[whisper]Japanese almost never pluralizes.[/whisper]

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 01:28 GMT

[Magami No ER [ANF]]

Yeah, I would say that that may have been his first time, as he looked so depressingly shocked...

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 02:08 GMT

[Soluzar [ANF]]

Well, boys, judging by Shinji's spl00ge, how long was it since the last time he performed auto-sex?

(Okay, a stupid question, but girls get curious about these things.)

I'd say... he'd definitely not had another one that day, and possibly not the day before. At that age, though, the 'batteries' recharge ever-so quickly, and that's not quite the sort of an effect you'd expect to see resulting from an extended abstinance. Unless he deposited some of it... elsewhere. But I think we might have see this. Bukkake, why didn't he think of bukkake?

I can't believe I'm posting this.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 02:19 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

For some reason, this reminds me of an occasion when vasectomies where being discussed in class, and one girl piped up, wanting to know "So, um, if guys get that done, what do they shoot?!"

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 03:01 GMT

[MagicianCamille [ANF]]

It's times like this when I wish I had paid attention to the teacher during Sex-ed instead of the guy next to me's gameboy.

>.>
<.<
>.>


Girls...yeck. I'm joking.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 03:29 GMT

[Soluzar [ANF]]

For some reason, this reminds me of an occasion when vasectomies where being discussed in class, and one girl piped up, wanting to know "So, um, if guys get that done, what do they shoot?!"

That Misconception is incredibly common, isn't it? I mean, that semen, as well as sperm, is manufactured in the testicles. d00d. I mean, I've known plenty of guys, who, to judge from their sexual allusions during conversation were under the impression that semen was manufactured and stored in the testicles. It worries me, it really does.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 03:52 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

That Misconception is incredibly common, isn't it?

Wah! Leave me alone!

I mean, that semen, as well as sperm, is manufactured in the testicles. d00d. I mean, I've known plenty of guys, who, to judge from their sexual allusions during conversation were under the impression that semen was manufactured and stored in the testicles. It worries me, it really does.

In my case, anyway, I never thought that anything other than spermatozoa were produced by the testes; rather, I didn't know exactly what the vas deferans did. Come to think of it, I still don't, really. I'd better brush up on my anatomy!

And Magami, as far as #25' being Shinji's first time -- nawwwww.



Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 04:01 GMT

[Soluzar [ANF]]

Wah! Leave me alone!

I wasn't thinking of you in particular, I promise.

In my case, anyway, I never thought that anything other than spermatozoa were produced by the testes; rather, I didn't know exactly what the vas deferans did. Come to think of it, I still don't, really. I'd better brush up on my anatomy!

Jeez, the things I do for this forum and it's residents. Okey doke, you got the testes, then you got the epididymis, which is a long tube, which sits on top of each testicle and is folded many times, so many in fact, that it would be meters long if unfurled. This tube is where the sperm 'queue up' on their way out of the testicles. Then you got the vas deferens. This is the part they ligate and snip when you get a vasectomy, hence the name.

The vas deferens is a kind of Y shape, on end for each testicle, and the other end at the root of the urethra. Somewhere located along the route of the vas deferens are the seminal vesicles. These, as the name implies, produce semen, which is transported to the vas, through the ejaculatory ducts. The vasectomy is carried out at a point which precedes the seminal vesicles, so that a man remains able to ejaculate semen, but without it containing sperm. A man who has had a vasectomy, however, must continue to use protection for several weeks, because of the possibility of sperm remaining in the vas deferens.

The final element of the mix is the cowper's gland, which produces a clear fluid usually secreted before ejaculation, in order to neutralise any acidity of the urethra, due to urination. The fluid produced by the cowper's gland may also contain leakages of sperm, and as such, ensures the unreliability of coitus interruptus as a birth-control method.

We now all know far more about male anatomy than we wanted, or needed to, curtesy of your friendly neighborhood biscuit.

"The rising star, and undefeated champion of the art of posting strange and often disturbing things; Richard Taylor, twenty-nine years old; The Crumbling Biscuit of the AnimeNation Evangelion forums, and Kindred Spirit of Tatewake Kuno, thanks you, and bids you good day."

And Magami, as far as #25' being Shinji's first time -- nawwwww.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 04:26 GMT

[MagicianCamille [ANF]]

Well...I'm speechless...O_O

Wait a second, what does any of this have to do with birds and bees?

-End lame joke here.

-Nya

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 04:33 GMT

[OMF [ANF]]

[whisper]Japanese almost never pluralizes.[/whisper]

Danm.
Nonetheless, I feel Asuka is alluding to his supressed libido in general, and not just his actions in Air. It's reasonable to assume that the much less conservative Asuka has already put two and two together, and realised that he is human, he's just trying to hide it. She doesn't understand why he's hiding it though.

Hell's Bell's! This went off topic fast! However Magami''s suggestion...

Yeah, I would say that that may have been his first time, as he looked so depressingly shocked...

Is in fact intruiging enough to merit serious discussion. Only please, to be discussing in another thread.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 09:23 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Hell's Bell's! This went off topic fast! However Magami''s suggestion...
Is in fact intruiging enough to merit serious discussion. Only please, to be discussing in another thread.

Nah. One can act like a prude outwardly, and still deal with his/her sexual urges in the shadows, unknown! How do I know this? I knew a person, very very well, who was not at all unlike Shinji in this regard for the duration of her teenage years. Who was she? I'm not at liberty to say.

You know, a lot of human behavior is paradoxical and doesn't make sense. Someone can be a horny bastard and know it, but not acknowledge it for the benefit of the outside world because they are afraid, and freely criticize others who do express their sexuality. Your interpretation of Shinji's behavior is far too B&W, in my opinion. Real people (which the NGE characters emulate with an unusual degree of success) are not so simple.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 12:57 GMT

[OMF [ANF]]

Nah. One can act like a prude outwardly, and still deal with his/her sexual urges in the shadows, unknown! How do I know this? I knew a person, very very well, who was not at all unlike Shinji in this regard for the duration of her teenage years. Who was she? I'm not at liberty to say.

You know, a lot of human behavior is paradoxical and doesn't make sense. Someone can be a horny bastard and know it, but not acknowledge it for the benefit of the outside world because they are afraid, and freely criticize others who do express their sexuality. Your interpretation of Shinji's behavior is far too B&W, in my opinion. Real people (which the NGE characters emulate with an unusual degree of success) are not so simple.

Your point here is the very one I've been alluding to when I mention Asuka's fantasies quote. It's obvious that Shinji is a human being like everyone else. he won't come out of his shell, but that doesn't say anything about what he might be up to inside it!

Shinji hides from human contact, behind walls of social decorum. He uses formalities to maintain distance between himself and others. He's not just being polite, he's deliberately using politeness as a way of avoiding contact. But he is still desperately lonely and in need of human contact. His hedgehogs dilemma. His "thorns" of decorum are of his own creation.

A part of all this is his extreme avoidance of sex. To open himself up to Asuka in the way she desires he would have to tear down all the firmly establish barriers he has erected around himself. He can't do this. It goes against every fibre of his reclusive being. He can't flirt with Asuka, he can't make a move, he won't hold her! Yet he is frustrated and ashamed by his own pent up desires, especially when they burst out. His sexual conservatism is another barrier that he has constructed. Shinji is apprehensive of human contact and sex, as the most intimate form of contact, is the contact he will try to avoid the most.

I'm not taking a Black and White angle on Shinji's behaviour here. This is his essential conflict with regard to Asuka. Shinji does have sexual desires, this is irrefutably proven by his dream sequences in episode #20 and the image of Asuka's breasts before complementation. My key point is he will NOT consciously act on these desires! He will not bring himself to engage with anyone, especially Asuka, in this way.

He has constructed a negative attitude towards sex inside his head to buttress his walls of social isolation.
He only acts on his restrained lusts when they overwhealm him. What else explains his actions in Air?

Yet he still desires a relationship with Asuka. This is unquestionable. He needs her. Subconsciously he seeks her sexually, but this never manifests itself as he will not allow it. Instead he seeks out a chaste relationship with Asuka the teacher, Asuka the warrior, Asuka the parent( leaning on f word). Asuka-senpai is what he resolves in his mind to gain from a relationship with Asuka, as he cannot bring himself to hold her,(i.e. have sexual relations with her) dispite his clear need to do so!

This is precisely why Asuka rejects him. Not because of a percieved rejection of her. But becasue of his actual rejection of her sexually. She does not desire a chaste or platonic relationship, and cannot comprehend why he does. She grows to hate him because of this, because he stays a child and won't be a man I suppose. She utterly rejects his desire for an arms length relationship, before complementation, and this rejection even extends to a sexual relationship during complementation "I rather die than do it with you"

This is a key part of Shinji's "Hedgehog's Dilemma", as ZeroRyoko1974 brought up. It is the primary obstacle in the Shinji-Asuka relationship, which is the relationship in Evangelion. It is one of the key reasons the relationship breaks down to such a woeful extent.

I'm really not getting a lot of agreement on this. I'm not dismissing a Shinji/Asuka relationship you know. I'm giving my thoughts on why it's such a poor one. It's unquestionable that each desperately needs the other. They have simply been unable to translate their needs into a relationship.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 15:05 GMT