In the Case of Mikasa Hinako

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In the Case of Mikasa Hinako

Postby BobBQ » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:40 am

Reichu, in another topic, wrote:
BobBQ wrote:all I have to offer is the Mikasa Hinako theory, and it's pretty much a forgone conclusion that it won't get much support even after I get around to officially proposing it.

I think tbozfan beat you to it with "Sarai". (And just from personal experience: Using a fan-concocted name in a "serious" context is a surefire way to not be taken seriously. It's really not worth it; what are you "trying to prove"?)

The name itself comes from my intention of using this stuff in TToR404, but screw that. Owing to a lack of time on my part, most of this is copypasted from a PM interchange I had about a month back. (Ta very much to you for offering feedback, SSD.)

For the record, this is not an attempt to reverse-engineer what the Gainax writers had in mind so much as my way of patching a plot hole. I'd probably be a proponent of the part-of-Lilith-in-Eva-00 theory if I hadn't thought up MH before it was formulated. I don't think the evidence is terribly strong either way; indeed, what I hope this theory of mine shows is just how easily that evidence can be interpreted in multiple ways. And then, of course, there is the strong possibility that Gainax changed their plans halfway through or never even decided who was in Eva-00, in which case a lot of the evidence is probably worthless. I really don't think it's impossible that the donor was an unshown character, just as Kaji was killed by a random suit.

Mikasa Hinako, according to the eponymous theory, was a four year old girl who died sometime between 2003 and 2014 - most of the years in the middle are part of a very large plot hole - and whose soul was subsequently put into Eva-00. The most likely reasons are that Gendo et al were not entirely thrilled with the results of previous contact experiments, or that they wanted to see if a relatively young soul would allow for better pilot control. It could well have been both.

Unfortunately, Hinako had an autism spectrum disorder, which meant that her behavior once inside the Eva was hardly ideal. In addition to being totally isolated for what could have been a number of years - the period in which Eva-00 had no pilot - she had been transferred at an early age and had only a dim understanding of the world.

Since relevant incidents are fairly sparse in the series, I'll cover them one at a time.

Episode 05: Rei was disturbed by something during or just before the test - possibly an attempted contact by Hinako, as Rei was the only person she could reach - and her reaction triggered violent behavior on Hinako's part, whereupon Eva-00 lashed out at the observation area. She may have been trying to hit both Gendo and Ritsuko because she had learned to associate them with discomfort: they were the ones responsible for overseeing modifications, invasive maintenance and other likely sources of pain.

Episode 14: until this point, Hinako had never been in close contact with anyone except Rei. Because of this, she had never developed a proper image of herself and had, over time, adopted Rei's image as her own. When Shinji tried to synchronize, Hinako presented this borrowed image to him, either as a complaint about the absence of the Other she had adjusted to, or as an attempt at contact. Either way, Shinji's reaction - perhaps influenced by Asuka's taunting - was far more emotional than what she was used to experiencing when Rei was inside, and this led to another violent outburst. Hinako may have been trying to hit Ritsuko again, presumably for the reasons given above and possibly also for what Hinako might have perceived as taking Rei away from her. She might also have tried to hit Rei for leaving her alone with the more turbulent-minded Shinji.

Episode 23: when Rei says "The me inside Eva?", she is referring to Hinako's use of Rei's image as a representation of herself, as she would most likely be unaware of the identity of Eva-00's donor. Note that Armisael did exactly the same thing: in the absence of an appropriate image of self, it copied the appearance of the person it interacted with.

Episode 25: the bug-eyed Rei that appears briefly is a stock image recycled from E14. In the given setting, it has no obvious connection to Eva-00; the overlaying dialog accuses Rei of having a false body and soul, of being a construct. In that context, it was appropriate that Rei be shown confronting a distorted - and therefore visibly 'false' - image of herself, and the BER from E14 happened to fit the bill. This scene, then, has nothing to do with Hinako.

That covers pretty much all the basics. It's still rough in places and probably has a hole or two, but I think it's workable, not that I expect anyone to abandon current dogma.

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Postby AchtungAffen » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:43 am

Considering the other pilots have Evas whose souls are their mothers (there's a concrete pilot-resident soul relation), I find it hard to believe Eva-00's soul to be someone else than Rei or some sort of Yui.
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Postby BobBQ » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:45 am

AchtungAffen wrote:Considering the other pilots have Evas whose souls are their mothers (there's a concrete pilot-resident soul relation), I find it hard to believe Eva-00's soul to be someone else than Rei or some sort of Yui.

But what about Eva-04 and the MP Evas, then? The latter can't all host relatives of Kaworu.

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Re: In the Case of Mikasa Hinako

Postby ORAMI!? » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:02 am

BobBQ wrote:Episode 14: until this point, Hinako had never been in close contact with anyone except Rei. Because of this, she had never developed a proper image of herself and had, over time, adopted Rei's image as her own.


- The script labels the distorted image of Rei inside the Eva as "Rei 1".
- Rei 1 never piloted or "contacted" Eva-00. Only Rei 2 did.
- Ergo, Hinako could never have met Rei 1 and adopted her image.
- Ergo, the Rei that Shinji sees in Episide 14 and that Rei 2 refers to in episode 23 cannot be Hinako, and must be someone/something else.
- Ergo, if some other "presence" is already there, then there is no need for Hinako.

Conclusion: The Mikasa Hinako theory is demonstrably false.

what I hope this theory of mine shows is just how easily that evidence can be interpreted in multiple ways.


While I agree that this can and does happen, I also think that much of the time it is a case of overlooking a single, simple clue that will either make or break the theory.
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Re: In the Case of Mikasa Hinako

Postby Reichu » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:05 am

ORAMI!? wrote:The script labels the distorted image of Rei inside the Eva as "Rei 1".

The thing in episode 14 isn't designated any particular Rei.
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Re: In the Case of Mikasa Hinako

Postby ORAMI!? » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:25 am

Reichu wrote:
ORAMI!? wrote:The script labels the distorted image of Rei inside the Eva as "Rei 1".

The thing in episode 14 isn't designated any particular Rei.


No, but the exact same image is labeled as "Rei 1" by the Episode 25 script, and I thought that was part of the evidence used to reason that Rei 1's soul is the soul of Eva-00.
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Re: In the Case of Mikasa Hinako

Postby BobBQ » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:29 am

ORAMI!? wrote:- Rei 1 never piloted or "contacted" Eva-00. Only Rei 2 did.
- Ergo, Hinako could never have met Rei 1 and adopted her image.
- Ergo, the Rei that Shinji sees in Episide 14 and that Rei 2 refers to in episode 23 cannot be Hinako, and must be someone/something else.
- Ergo, if some other "presence" is already there, then there is no need for Hinako.

Rei I didn't have breasts. The image in E14 does. The image in E25 is a recycle used in a different context.

Therefore Rei I has nothing to do with this.

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Postby Ornette » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:31 am

There is also the problem of Shinji syncing with Eva-00. Why would they even attempt it (knowing it wouldn't work in Eva-02) if they knew it wasn't going to work?

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Postby BobBQ » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:37 am

The whole thing has always struck me as being awfully contrived, since we're never told anything about why Shinji can't pilot Eva-02. Saying that it simply can't be done also contradicts episode 8.

*EDIT* Typo, my bad.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:42 am

BobBQ wrote:Saying that it simply can't be done also contradicts episode 7.

You'll have to elaborate. Unless that's a typo for episode 8, in which case:

Being as Anno-tachi didn't think this out very well, we are forced to make do and fanwank an explanation behind the Eva-00/01 pilot swap experiment stuff that also accounts for Shinji's ability to synchronize with Kyoko while Asuka is present. Ready... Set...

@ORAMI: The recurrence of the "Bug-Eyed Rei" is indeed used as part of the argument. I was mostly being finicky; you made it sound as if "Rei 1" was noted in the episode 14 script, which it is not.
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Postby DatDude » Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:01 pm

Can someone tell me who this Mikasa Hinako is ? I've never heard the name before
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Postby Reichu » Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:04 pm

DatDude wrote:Can someone tell me who this Mikasa Hinako is ? I've never heard the name before

Please don't ask questions that indicate you did not read the first post of the thread.

If that was an expression of your trademark skepticism, productive comments are valued above sarcasm.
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Postby CitizenGeek » Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:11 pm

I suppose it's a well thought out idea, though the lack of any real proof whatsoever means I can't take it as anything other than intelligent fanfiction :/

The name Mikasa Hinako ... where did it come from?
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Postby DatDude » Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:25 pm

Reichu wrote:
DatDude wrote:Can someone tell me who this Mikasa Hinako is ? I've never heard the name before

Please don't ask questions that indicate you did not read the first post of the thread.

If that was an expression of your trademark skepticism, productive comments are valued above sarcasm.


You'd like it better if I asked you to move this to the board we reserve for fan fiction?
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Postby ORAMI!? » Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:28 pm

Reichu wrote:@ORAMI: The recurrence of the "Bug-Eyed Rei" is indeed used as part of the argument. I was mostly being finicky; you made it sound as if "Rei 1" was noted in the episode 14 script, which it is not.


I see. Not having the scripts or storyboards handy anymore, I was under the impression that it did. Thanks for the correction.

As for the image recycling, breasts or no breasts (or GTFO?), the image is labeled as Rei 1, so unless it is stated somewhere that the Episode 14 Rei is not Rei 1, IMO that should be the working assumption (even though I dislike the Rei 1 in Eva-00 theory for the same reason that I dislike Naoko's soul-splitting, regardless of the NGE2-CI).
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Postby AchtungAffen » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:07 pm

BobBQ wrote:But what about Eva-04 and the MP Evas, then? The latter can't all host relatives of Kaworu.


I don't know about 04 as we get no clues about pilot and stuff. As for the MP Evas, why can't they all have Kaworu? Or better, can a Dummy Plug synch with a totally "incompatible" soul? I mean, could a DP whose data was taken out of Shinji work in Eva-02?
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Postby DatDude » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:18 pm

Kaworu controlled Unit 2 so we know it could work. As for the Unit four pilot my money is on its pilot being " glasses girl " in rebuild.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:28 pm

DatDude wrote:You'd like it better if I asked you to move this to the board we reserve for fan fiction?

I think it would help to articulate your criticisms and express them directly, rather than allude to them through sarcasm. Even the suggestion that it be moved to the fandom subforum is indirect. I realize this is your "style" and all, but it doesn't help advance the sort of "forum relations" that we should strive towards.

That said, I don't think my criticisms would be entirely different from yours. One could present an argument for why the soul of Eva-00 might be a "Random Nobody". However, "speculating a character" is not kosher. I once committed the crime on a lesser scale and "speculated" a character about whom there is some actual information in the show, and I was ripped apart for it. Granted, there were reasons for that...

For anyone who cares: I referred to Misato's dad as "Akira Katsuragi" (yes, with the fabricated given name) during my "revelations period". (The reason is... not important.) At this time, I formulated and advocated a plethora of ideas directed at the in-show character. Some disregarded the "Akira" in their evaluations, but many others treated the concepts specifically as "fanfiction", rather than as "just" a precarious set of hypotheses. The criticisms towards the ideas would have been harsh no matter what, but I strongly suspect their overall "flavor" would have been markedly different had I just called the guy "Dr. Katsuragi".

ORAMI wrote:As for the image recycling, breasts or no breasts (or GTFO?), the image is labeled as Rei 1, so unless it is stated somewhere that the Episode 14 Rei is not Rei 1, IMO that should be the working assumption

I'll also suggest that the concept of Rei 1 had not been decided yet. This, from Eva tomo no kai...

Cut 71 数年前のレイだろうか。この映像は本編には登場していない。レイが実験施設のような場所で育てられた事を暗示しているのだろう。

Could this be Rei from several years back? This image doesn’t appear in the actual show. It may be hinting that Rei was brought up in a place along the lines of a laboratory.


Image

...suggests that it at least had not been solidified at that point. Which, granted, was about half a year before episode #14 aired (according to a tidbit from MDWigs I haven't sourced yet). But I thought it was worth mentioning.

(Though I'll admit, if she's supposed to be younger, it looks like she has 14-y.o. Rei's head attached.)

(Also, I'll try to zip the scripts up and post them at some point. What happened to your copies?)

@AA: Adam's soul is only in Kaworu, according to the old geezers.

@DatDude: Whatever pilot Eva-04 might have in Rebuild is irrelevant in this particular subforum.
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Postby BobBQ » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:15 pm

CitizenGeek wrote:I suppose it's a well thought out idea, though the lack of any real proof whatsoever means I can't take it as anything other than intelligent fanfiction

Which is exactly what it started as and would have remained if I hadn't started taking so much flak for supposedly trying to curtail discussion.

The name Mikasa Hinako ... where did it come from?

Mikasa = historically important Japanese battleship, now a floating museum in Yokosuka.

Hinako = "young bird" + "child". I thought it fit because my hypothetical soul donor was envisioned as being quite young.

ORAMI!? wrote:As for the image recycling, breasts or no breasts (or GTFO?), the image is labeled as Rei 1, so unless it is stated somewhere that the Episode 14 Rei is not Rei 1, IMO that should be the working assumption.

But the Bug-Eyed Rei in E14 is too old to be the Rei I seen later. In any case, the BER image in E25 was cropped down to just the head and, in the given context, it might be safe to assume that E25's recycled Rei I doesn't have the body attached in E14's version.

Reichu wrote:That said, I don't think my criticisms would be entirely different from yours. One could present an argument for why the soul of Eva-00 might be a "Random Nobody". However, "speculating a character" is not kosher.

So it's okay to say, "I think the soul in Eva-00 is that of an unshown character", but it's not okay to say, "I think the soul in Eva-00 is that of an unshown character and maybe it was this or that kind of person"? I only included the name because it already existed and because I'd have gotten fed up very quickly if I'd had to write "the Eva-00 donor" or "Subject X" or "that person" over and over.

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Postby DatDude » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:55 pm

If you don't do it that way it feels like your trying to sell us fanfic as cannon.
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