Angel Pages

[Reichu]

ITT, we talk about Angel Pages in general.

Not much to say right now. I fooled around with Sandy's page, on a completely random basis. Maybe my faux-academic treatment will provide inspiration to others. (Yes, it needs pict4rs... I'm working on it...)

More to the point, the info box template needs that requisite slot for "namesake angel is angel of...". Even ''Chronicle'' has this on their Angel info sheets, but they use slightly less cumbersome designation "Symbol" (followed by "Rain", "Sky", "Tentacle Rape", etc.). "Symbol" sounds a little funny, but maybe whoever revises the template can come up with something better...

I also don't like "First Appearance"... "Appearance(s)" or whatever would be better.

[UrsusArctos]

I didn't know about Sandy's core being under the left eye. I thought that Asuka was merely picking a random spot for her right hand to stab.

I remember the designations of each one of them, and I've compared them to the designations of the Judeo-Christo-Islamic Angels. They don't always match. For instance, our beloved Sachiel is the namesake of the Angel of wealth, and according to one website, his element is supposed to be water; it appears to have been a slight stretch to name Evangelion's Angel of water after him. Ramiel, too, isn't the Angel of thunder, but that of divine visions, and his name means "Thunder of God". And we have misspellings, like Tabris for Tabrias. If we have to include their angelic designations, we need to expand a little in some cases to prevent confusion from casual readers checking up on the bibilical angels.

Whatever the case, I'm not capable of entering the names and designations in Katakana (Well, I know how it would be spelled, like Isurahueru for Israfel and Arumisaeru for Armisael, stuff like that, but how do I transliterate that into Katakana? Is there a template available on the Wiki?)

[Reichu]

I didn't know about Sandy's core being under the left eye. I thought that Asuka was merely picking a random spot for her right hand to stab.

Asuka goes after the left "eye" during the initial attempt ("Kon' chikushou!"). Then, once the whole "thermal expansion" thing is underway, she goes back to it. Seems like a pretty random thing to go after both times, don't it?

I remember the designations of each one of them, and I've compared them to the designations of the Judeo-Christo-Islamic Angels. They don't always match. For instance, our beloved Sachiel is the namesake of the Angel of wealth, and according to one website, his element is supposed to be water

NGE materials endorse the common match-ups. Looking at the Renewal DVD notes and Chronicle here:

Sachiel = 水　mizu (water)
Shamshel = 昼　hiru (daytime)
Ramiel = 雷　rai (thunder)
Gaghiel = 魚　sakana (fish)
Israfel = 音楽　ongaku (music)
Sandalphon = 胎児　taiji (embryo)
Matarael = 雨　ame (rain)
Sahaquiel = 空　sora (sky)
Ireul = 恐怖　kyoufu (fear)
Leliel = 夜　yoru (night)
Bardiel = 霰　arare (hail)
Zeruel = 力　chikara (strength)
Arael = 鳥　tori (birds)
Armisael = 子宮　shikyuu (womb)
Tabris = 自由意志　jiyuu ishi (free will)

And we have misspellings, like Tabris for Tabrias.

My angel book includes the variant "Tabris".

If we have to include their angelic designations, we need to expand a little in some cases to prevent confusion from casual readers checking up on the bibilical angels.

I don't think ANY of them are "Biblical", for the record. But providing a little info on where the names came from, etc., should be mandatory. Hopefully with nice, juicy SAUCE. I didn't use anything but A Dictionary of Angels for the sentence on Sandalphon.

I'm not capable of entering the names and designations in Katakana

Easy enough. If copypasta works, here are all of them (tho I provided Adam and Sandy already):

アダム (Adam)
リリス (Lilith)
サキエル (Sachiel)
シャムシェル (Shamshel)
ラミエル (Ramiel)
ガギエル (Gaghiel)
イスラフェル (Israfel)
サンダルフォン (Sandalphon)
マトリエル (Matarael)
サハクィエル (Sahaquiel)
イロウル (Ireul)
レリエル (Leliel)
バルディエル (Bardiel)
ゼルエル (Zeruel)
アラエル (Arael)
アルミサエル (Armisael)
タブリス (Tabris)
リリム (Lilim)

like Isurahueru for Israfel

Not HUE/FUE -- it's a katakana compound specialized for emulating the sound FE, and it includes a small "E" where normal FU+E does not.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

I'll work on changing the template as soon as I'm able, probably later today or tomorrow.

Are you sure about that core in the eye bit? You may need to open/link to a thread on that.

[V]

Yeah I thought the Platinum DVD booklets (stored on EvaMonkey) provided a source for the names.

Off the top of my head, "Israfel" is the Angel which in islamic theology will blow the trumpet heralding the end of the world (though they may have copied this from judaism)

[Reichu]

Are you sure about that core in the eye bit? You may need to open/link to a thread on that.

I never mentioned that particular observation anywhere, mostly because I didn't verify it was the same "eye" both times until just the other day. I modified the wording somewhat, but I can transfer the tidbit to the Talk page if people find it that dubious. (I thought the implications were straightforward, but...)

Another request: Could the info box have a slot for the katakana rendition of the name? That would be sweet.

[Dr. Nick]

I modified the wording somewhat, but I can transfer the tidbit to the Talk page if people find it that dubious.

The wording's okay, IMO. By the way, are we going to have any sort of style guide page, separate from Standards and Conventions? I think there should be something to remind people to use "softener words" when writing encyclopedic articles so as to clearly distinguish things we know from things we think we know. You know, words and phrases like "apparently", "potentially", "it appears that", "one possible implication is", "this seems to suggest that", etc. They protect us against our own screw-ups and possible official retcons.

You native English-speakers can formulate that part better. I'm speed-posting from work, lol.

[V]

You know, words and phrases like "apparently", "potentially", "it appears that", "one possible implication is", "this seems to suggest that", etc. They protect us against our own screw-ups and possible official retcons.

....you're not native english?


Wikipedia calls those "weasel words". I think Wikipedia is full of crap, but yeah I'll make it a point to please make it clear when something is a hard "fact" and when something is our best-fit assumption or highest probability.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

We could put softer information in some type of "Speculation" template, a la EvaPedia?

[Reichu]

....you're not native english?

He's from the great country of Finland.

Wikipedia calls those "weasel words". I think Wikipedia is full of crap

I'll say. "Weasel words" are a long-standing NGE tradition. (The people who write supplemental materials for the show have a total hard-on for them.)

[V]

....you're not native english?

He's from the great country of Finland.

That's the country for me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYWiOCNJ36M

[Reichu]

I messed around with the Angel template myself to include slots for the katakana rendition of the name and the "symbol", along with altering "First Appearance" to "Appearance(s)". Hopefully it looks alright, although it means that some poor sap has to go through the Angel pages all over again to fix everything.

[V]

What is (to use the vernacular expression) the "SAUCE" for these Angel symbols? I missed it

[Reichu]

Several posts up...

NGE materials endorse the common match-ups. Looking at the Renewal DVD notes and Chronicle here: <big list>

[Zuggy]

I remember the designations of each one of them, and I've compared them to the designations of the Judeo-Christo-Islamic Angels. They don't always match. For instance, our beloved Sachiel is the namesake of the Angel of wealth, and according to one website, his element is supposed to be water; it appears to have been a slight stretch to name Evangelion's Angel of water after him. Ramiel, too, isn't the Angel of thunder, but that of divine visions, and his name means "Thunder of God". And we have misspellings, like Tabris for Tabrias. If we have to include their angelic designations, we need to expand a little in some cases to prevent confusion from casual readers checking up on the bibilical angels.

The designations for angels changes depending on which Hebrew spelling you use. Sachiel has no commonly agreed spelling, so you might spell the first two letters of that name SCh or ZCh or ZK (the last rendering has been used in the Evapedia) each different spelling has different connotations, so that's why there is always conflicting information in books and online as to what each name means.

Sachiel = 水　mizu (water)
Shamshel = 昼　hiru (daytime)
Ramiel = 雷　rai (thunder)
Gaghiel = 魚　sakana (fish)
Israfel = 音楽　ongaku (music)
Sandalphon = 胎児　taiji (embryo)
Matarael = 雨　ame (rain)
Sahaquiel = 空　sora (sky)
Ireul = 恐怖　kyoufu (fear)
Leliel = 夜　yoru (night)
Bardiel = 霰　arare (hail)
Zeruel = 力　chikara (strength)
Arael = 鳥　tori (birds)
Armisael = 子宮　shikyuu (womb)
Tabris = 自由意志　jiyuu ishi (free will)

Ahh, so that's what the 'symbol' bit comes from in each Angel's infobox?

Lilith shares the same root as Leliel, so they both mean night. Adam means man or earth - should the N/As for both of those be replaced with this info. or should each symbol rely on what is said about them in official NGE sources?

The name that seems unresolvable to me is Tabris, simply because I've never come across a name of an angel like that.

[UrsusArctos]

"Tabris" is a corruption of "Tabrias", reportedly meaning "Good of God". (ias...that's a Yah theophony over there)

[Zuggy]

How's that actually spelt though? I imagine it's either TBRIS or ThBRIS???

It would make sense if TBRIS was TBRIfM as fM and S look similar, but I can't understand how IH would be corrupted into IS, that isn't an understandable mistake!

Need delicious sauce.

[UrsusArctos]

So the proper name should be something like "Tabriam" or maybe "Tabriah"?

I don't recall where I read that part about "Tabris" being a corruption "Tabrias". All the same, I take your word for it- I'll reword the Kaworu article if I have to.

[Zuggy]

טוב (tavb, my lexicon doesn't have vowel pointers, so the v in tavb may have less emphasis making tab an acceptable English translation) means "good," so "good of god" would be spelt טוביה or טובאל (tavbiah or tavbal).

טובים (tavbiam) is the plural masculine form of tavb, but no sign of tavbias - final mem (fM) and samek (S) are hard to tell apart when written down though:

fM: ם
S: ס

With this forum's font the difference is made clear between them, but it isn't obvious at all sometimes which is which when written down, sometimes you have to guess based on the position of the letter in the word as fM usually appears only at the end of a word.

I would say "tabris is a corruption of tabim, which is the plural masculine form of tab, meaning 'good'".

I will need to hear the word tabris/tabim said by someone before I know how hard the r in it actually is, so I can tell whether or not the ri is a dodgy ve or something else. It's possible the ri/ve comes from the ב in the word if it doesn't have a dagesh within it.

[UrsusArctos]

The Katakana spelling of the name-
タブリス

Ta-bu-ri-su , or in English, Tabris.

It should be noted that this spelling comes from the Manga and Chronicle, since we don't get to see Kaworu's name spelt out in the Anime. It's possible that this is a goof on their part. Terminal Dogma, for instance, is not a real biology term, and whether they made up the term or they put it in because they thought it was real is anybody's guess (

: This term is omitted in Rebuild 1.0, so it might be a goof.)