Wiki Policies and Guidelines

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Wiki Policies and Guidelines

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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:38 pm

Since OMF and Wayne have gone ahead and started adding stuff to the Wiki, I suppose -- rather than moaning and bitching about HOW DARE YOU DEFY ME -- I should instead not argue with enthusiasm. :tonguegrin: However, since I have not yet presented all of the ideas, policies, considerations, etc., that I have in mind, and the Official Rulebook & Scribe's Manual for the Wiki have yet to be compiled, I hope you guys are eager and willing to reformat, fix crap, and perhaps sacrifice some of your work to Sammael later. Fufufu.

However, since I was motivated to sit here on my arse and type for hours in a glossy-eyed trance, I will now present a partial list of the stuff I have in mind. MORE TO COME!

If you disagree with any of these policies, please bring it up so we can joust it out. If not, please say so, just for my records. For the policies that don't attract dispute, perhaps someone can start throwing together a Wiki page outlining them, whilst I get out the remainder of my immediate thoughts in Word.

I'll make multiple posts just to keep one from getting too XBOX HUEG.

GENERAL

  • The original TV series is treated as the default for the entire site. The manga (and eventually Webuild, when there is substantial information on it) are to be mentioned in the context of being separate canons.
  • The NPC episodes are to treated as "default" over the OAs, although the exact handling of this should be discussed.
  • Standardized formats for articles should be discussed. I mention some things below that are relevant to this matter, although I have yet to consider it in vigorous detail.
  • For citational purposes (more on citations below), the Platinum and bochan_bird scripts are to be used as our "base". For the episodes the commentary has covered in full (or the scenes that I made pages for), those scripts would be used (and any problems peeps might have with them addressed sooner rather than later).

    My thoughts on scripts and citation do not end there -- but later.
Last edited by Reichu on Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:43 pm

STANDARDS

Or, "Let's see how rigorously anal we can be".

I. CHARACTER NAMES

Spelling and name order should go like so:

Gendo Ikari
Hikari Horaki
Kaworu Nagisa
Keel Lorenz
Kensuke Aida
Kozo Fuyutsuki
Makoto Hyuga
Maya Ibuki
Misato Katsuragi
Naoko Akagi
Rei Ayanami
Ritsuko Akagi
Ryoji Kaji
Shigeru Aoba
Shinji Ikari
Shiro Tokita
Asuka Langley Soryu
Kyoko Soryu Zeppelin
Toji Suzuhara
Yui Ikari

(This means you boys already have some corrections to make.)

Our favorite sphenisciform's name is officially written Pen². As such, it would be my inclination to go with that -- although there seems to be a certain favoritism for the variation that doesn't involve superscript.

Also, on the subject of Asuka and Kyoko... Despite what I listed above, I did violate my own anal tendencies and throw the Soryu and Zeppelin on the end, whereas in the official Romanizations they are placed at the front. I started doing this to, optimally, emphasize the fact that "Langley Soryu" and "Soryu Zeppelin" are compound surnames, and to maintain continuity with the fact that everyone else on the list is Given First. But let's vote on this one.

Also on the subject of name order, the fact that, aside from Asuka and Kyoko, the official Romanizations invert the Japanese name order creates a small problem... Our script policy (which I'll get to presently) is to include the honorifics. This works out fine when a suffix is attached to just a given or surname, but, occasionally, we'll see the characters attach honorifics to the end of someone's full name -- e.g., "Akagi Ritsuko-kun". However, turning this into "Ritsuko Akagi-kun" sounds terribly artificial.

As a result, I make the tentative suggestion that Japanese name order is maintained in character dialogue (the script and citations thereof), but swapped in our own writing. This may create some confusion, but it's the best option, in my opinion.

II. ANGEL NAMES

Just for completeness' sake, the official spellings are as follows:

Adam
Lilith
Sachiel
Shamshel
Ramiel
Gaghiel
Israfel
Sandalphon
Matarael
Sahaquiel
Leliel
Bardiel
Zeruel
Arael
Armisael
Tabris

For the final, we'll use the spelling "Lilim" (rather than "Lilin"), since it's the most common. With the disclaimer that the official Romanization has yet to be confirmed.

III. EVA DESIGNATIONS

They go like so...

Eva(ngelion) #gouki --> Eva(ngelion) Unit ##
#gouki --> EVA-##

Note how the proper abbreviated form substitutes "-ngelion Unit" with a dash. The capitalization derives from the fact that I don't think I've ever seen "Eva-##" in my Japanese stuff.

IV. Rei

The three main Rei are Rei 1, 2, and 3. The episode #25 script uses Arabic numerals with no "0" in front, so we should as well.

V. SPEAR OF LONGINUS & HEAVY SPEAR

No "lances" when we're talking about the FAR doowackadoo (plzkthx).

I don't have an official English rendition for the harpy's weapons handy, although I mandate Heavy Spear for consistency's sake.

VI. ORGANIZATIONS

Seele, Gehirn, and Nerv, rather than SEELE, GEHIRN, and NERV.

VII. GENDER

Oh, I bet you saw this coming 3,000 light years away.

Evas and Seeds receive feminine pronouns – for "aesthetic" or "stylistic" reasons if nothing else, due to the "mother" stuff, or otherwise having souls from chickas (Rei 1).

I know at least one person among us who may object to this on various grounds, but, in all honestly, I don't think it is anything a nice, fat disclaimer and fanwankerific debate page(s) on the nitty gritty details (like, say, the debate on whether or not they are biologically female, or 'Just what is the deal with Adam?') can't handle. [More on the debate page(s) for this in another thread I'll be making.]

As for Adam's kiddles and pronouns, I'm a bit more ambivalent... although it would greatly please me to avoid calling people "its".

VIII. GOS

While "Girlfriend of Steel" is how the franchise is commonly referenced by English-speakers, the actual English-language title chosen by the makers is "Iron Maiden" (or "Iron Maiden 2nd", for the sequel). For purposes of conforming to Officialness, should we make "Iron Maiden" the default form?

IX. VIDEO & LD VERSION vs. DIRECTORS' CUT vs. NPC

I'm reconsidering the issue of exactly how #21' through #24' should be collectively designated, as I've come to feel that "NPC" is not appropriate for referencing the episodes as a whole since I discovered what the term actually means. That leaves the first two to choose between. Considering the first technically encompasses the entire series as it was originally released to video tape and laser disc, and not those four episodes specifically, I find myself leaning towards "Directors' Cuts" after all... Thoughts?

X. A.T. FIELD

"A.T. Field". Not AT Field, AT field, A.T. field, or whatever.

XI. LCL

LCL, or L.C.L.? I haven't done an extensive survey on which one shows up in official crap more often. Maybe I should.

XII. THE HUMAN/ANGEL PROBLEM

What do we do about the fact that these terms have two definitions each?

XIII. SEED OF LIFE vs. SOURCE OF LIFE

I give my favoritism to the former, myself. Especially because it readily shortens to "Seed", which would IMO work better in the articles than the acronym "SoL". It also rings of being a "title" or designation of sorts, whereas the latter is more like a description.


Let me know if I missed any, and I'll add them to the list. (Watch the number of edits grow!)
Last edited by Reichu on Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:45 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:44 pm

STUFF TO INCLUDE (or not)
  • YES: Statements or tidbits drawn from the show or sub-primary sources. That is to say, the sorts of things that are either (A) indisputable facts ("Shinji is the pilot of EVA-01"; "Asuka and Kaji were in Germany before they came to Japan"); (B) things that may not be directly stated in the show but are typically accepted as fact by the Community At Large and are, hopefully, buttressed in one or more external sources (for example, "Rei possesses the soul of Lilith" -- Knives or The Goose types aside); and (C) things that may or may not be true presented as quotations or accurate paraphrasings in a '____ says [that]...' or '____ describes ____ as ...' sort of way ("Ritsuko speculates that Leliel's Dirac Sea leads to another universe"; "In episode #07, Ritsuko ascribes Second Impact to the First Angel exploding 'for unknown reasons'").

    If something commonly accepted like Rei having Lilith's soul gets snubbed by naysayers often enough (lol Fuzzy Chickens lol Knives lol The Goose, etc.), however, sections should be made that debunk their objections.
  • YES: Direct observations. This just means saying things as they are, without injecting what may or may not be (i.e., individual interpretation). Examples of "qualitative data": "Sachiel's Lance of Light is formed by the extension of his ulna, or analogue thereof"; "Rei enters Lilith's body at the point corresponding to the Seed's solar plexus".
  • N.B.: Stuff that requires conditionals and suchlike -- that is, things other than the first two items in this list -- should be segregated to their own sections (sub-sections in a page, or pages devoted to covering larger issues). More on this below. [This policy is speaking more in general terms than anything else. There should be elbow room for Case-by-Case Basis.]
  • YES: Things that have a tendency of coming up, such as misconceptions and popular items for questions, discussion, & debate. (See the list following this one.)
  • YES: Citations/SAUCE. That is, books, websites, threads (specific posts if appropriate), and anything else. This entails both sourcing specific statements and ideas, and providing a general bibliography of sources when appropriate. If you can't provide a citation at the time but know or feel that one should be there, please leave a note that a citation is needed.

    If a piece of information has been published in a source more than once, the source that was published first takes precedence. (Ask if you're unsure about the publication info for a specific source.) Also, please keep track of which threads (especially ANF threads) you cite, and in which articles, in a Notepad file or whatever. (Or maybe I can make a thread just for the purpose?) We will need this information later on.

    One thing to ponder is when the actual names of the people whose posts are being cited should be mentioned in the articles. Optimally, we should be conservative about this, while still giving credit where credit is due. Thoughts, please.
  • YES: Footnotes to expound on details if appropriate.
  • DO NOT mention something if you're not entirely sure about it. (E.g., the "I think Anno said..." sorts of things.) Bring it up with The Board first.

ON QUESTIONS, DISCUSSIONS, & DEBATE
  • Use your judgment as to what constitutes "popular" or frequently recurring. If you are thinking of adding something, but are uncertain about the status, please ask.
  • Give these their own sections -- or even pages, if necessary. Again, use common sense and practicality in terms of organization, and ask if you're unsure.
  • In the case of the debates, please stick to mentioning sides of the argument that have been endorsed by, say, a minimum* of three, or perhaps four (to avoid the inclusion of fem-Kaworu, naturally :pwnd:), people. Mention supports and counter-supports, although, again, avoid ones that are unique to only a couple of people.
  • In terms of cited forum posts and the like, the earlier the mention of a specific idea you can find, the better. But don't go out of your way to see if other communities "beat us to the punch" on something, if you have absolutely no conception of whether they may have or not. Stick to what you distinctly know/remember exists and would theoretically be able to find again.
  • Similarly (and this reiterates some stuff I've already said), try to avoid statements like "It is thought by some...", "Traditional wisdom maintains that...", "A popular misconception held by the masses...", etc., unless you know you can provide some form of substantiation for such claims. Preferably, multiple sources that will show random people browsing the Wiki you are not pulling this generalization out of your arse.
  • Sub-primary sources that mention something potentially at odds with the show (for example, the card that talks about a "complemented Shinji", or whatever) or sound a little suspect or dubious (e.g., the card that describes why Shinji chokes Asuka in the final scene) should be restricted to these sorts of sections, rather than generalized & straightforward information.

IMAGES

I would like the Wiki articles to share a common screenshot archive with the Commentary. I have employed the approach of a "common archive" on my site, and it is perfectly functional – plus it eliminates redundancy.

I'm currently drawing up a plan for the handling and managing of images (including non-screenshots) on the site, which I hope to post this weekend. Meantime, images people think should be used in the articles (that haven't already been added) could be noted somewhere, rather than added to the database, as that would reduce some measure of hassle later.

[EDIT: On second thought, just go here.]


* BTW -- yes, Steve, this goes for things I have advocated, as well, so don't feel like I'm specifically picking on you.


That's all for now. I'll be creating another new Wiki thread for things that don't fit here.
Last edited by Reichu on Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:05 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:16 pm

Reichu wrote:* BTW -- yes, Steve, this goes for things I have advocated, as well, so don't feel like I'm specifically picking on you.


I forget -- do we have a quorum for Kaworu?

Also -- for simplicity's sake, I shall refrain from writing about Shinji, Asuka or the latter half of either episode 26.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:21 pm

I intend to create a separate thread -- today or tomorrow -- to specifically address articles in general, their penning, assignment (or denial, with reason) of certain articles or topics to/from individual WikiScribes, an initial mini-expansion of contributors... stuff like that. I'll respond to your inquiries there. DO NOT REPLY TO THE TEXT PRECEDING THIS SENTENCE.

What are your thoughts on the policies and the various issues/questions raised?
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:31 pm

Reichu wrote:What are your thoughts on the policies and the various issues/questions raised?


First and foremost, I would have to say that I'm very, very much against the proposed surname placement. I think it's going to be a rather unnatural angloisation, and in fact an unnessesary one. We hold the original Japanese dialogue over the dub, so I think that not using the Japanese name order is a bad idea.

Personally, I cringe whenever I see it written as "Shinji Ikari". "Ikari Shinji" is what we hear on screen, and what the name actually is to begin with. OK, it may be a little confusing for the casual observer, but the wiki isn't really for casual observers. I think we should distinguish ourselves from every other wiki and stick to the original Japanese as tightly as possible. This is one way of doing that.

The issue with honorifics has already been mentioned as a problem with trying to bolt european name ordering onto NGE character names. It's an avoidable problem, and the only real issue here is with people who should eventually learn the right order anyway. We can also avoid this issue almost entirely by putting two fields, First name and Surname into the character infoboxes.

Also on honorifics, when citing, I think that honorifics should always be included if they were present. If it's confusing, we can simply have a wiki page on honorific use, and on name order for that matter.

As to Asuka and Kyoko's names, I feel the compound name should be included. It's really unambiguous because Asuka gives her full name in episode #08, and it is mentioned again in this form by others, and Kyoko's full name is on her tombstone. Official character pages should have the characters full, offical name. Abbreviations will of course be neccessary in other places, but their offical names should be what is given in the show.(In Japanese)

Just on the Spear/Lance thing, what about when we quote from Bochan Bird's translation? It uses Lance.

Gender issues. Adam and Lilith are fine as "shes". So are the Evas I suppose(I'll try and avoid "its" in my edits). As to the angels, we're probably going to have to stick with "its", owing to the fact that there's a possibility that they are either sterile, or some of them might be male, in FARs can be either/or.

I think director's cut is a saner name for the NPC episodes. It's also a term people are more familiar with. Also, what is to be done with End of Evangelion? Specifically with regard to its canonicity in relation to the OA #25 and #26 episodes?

Reichu wrote:I would like the Wiki to share a common screenshot archive with the Wiki.

I suspect there's a typo here somewhere, but I don't know where. Do you mean that the wiki images should be usable from the rest of the site, because that may be a task that ranges from slightly difficult to nigh impossible.

As to the future image policy, I think it's best if that gets its own thread.
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Postby Ornette » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:06 pm

Reichu wrote:[*]For citational purposes (more on citations below), the Platinum and bochan_bird scripts are to be used as our "base". For the episodes the commentary has covered in full (or the scenes that I made pages for), those scripts would be used (and any problems peeps might have with them addressed sooner rather than later).

Will this be retroactive? i.e. when new episodes get added to the commentary, will previous citations made from the platinum translation get changed?

Our favorite sphenisciform's name is officially written Pen². As such, it would be my inclination to go with that -- although there seems to be a certain favoritism for the variation that doesn't involve superscript.

For people like me (I don't know if it's easy on Windows or MacOSX) I have to pull up a UTF-8 sheet in order to get non ASCII characters to appear in applications like firefox, either that or I'm incredibly stupid. Although it probably won't be something I need to type all that much anyways, I usually went with PenPen or Pen^2 for ease of typing.

How would this precedence apply to things like N^2 or S^2?

Also, on the subject of Asuka and Kyoko... Despite what I listed above, I did violate my own anal tendencies and throw the Soryu and Zeppelin on the end, whereas in the official Romanizations they are placed at the front. I started doing this to, optimally, emphasize the fact that "Langley Soryu" and "Soryu Zeppelin" are compound surnames, and to maintain continuity with the fact that everyone else on the list is Given First. But let's vote on this one.

Either way is fine with me, as long as we stick to one.

As a result, I make the tentative suggestion that Japanese name order is maintained in character dialogue (the script and citations thereof), but swapped in our own writing. This may create some confusion, but it's the best option, in my opinion.

I don't think it would be all that confusing. There's no instances of someone having a first name of someone else's last name, so anyone would still know who we're talking about. The worst case is someone wondering "hmm, they swapped the first and last name here" or maybe perhaps when they try to look up a character in the wiki by typing out the URL instead of using the normal means.

Eva(ngelion) #gouki --> Eva(ngelion) Unit ##
#gouki --> EVA-##

Note how the proper abbreviated form substitutes "-ngelion Unit" with a dash. The capitalization derives from the fact that I don't think I've ever seen "Eva-##" in my Japanese stuff.

I'm a little confused here. Which one is the preferred usage?

As for Adam's kiddles and pronouns, I'm a bit more ambivalent... although it would greatly please me to avoid calling people "its".

How about a "ve"? I can see possible confusion if an angel was referred to as "he" in one sentence and then a "she" in the following sentence. I think it would be better to settle on a precedence, and using gender neutral would probably get the fewest panties in knots. I, personally, don't mind the gender thing at all.

While "Girlfriend of Steel" is how the franchise is commonly referenced by English-speakers, the actual English-language title chosen by the makers is "Iron Maiden" (or "Iron Maiden 2nd", for the sequel). For purposes of conforming to Officialness, should we make "Iron Maiden" the default form?

Hmmm, when I first heard of the games it was "Girlfriend of Steel", something that someone who put up the torrent translated directly from the Japanese title, I'm assuming. Also, anywhere I read about the game or the manga, I see it as "Girlfriend of Steel" or just GOS. Do you think people would get confused if we exclusively used "Iron Maiden"? Perhaps if we stick to GOS and on the GOS wiki page simply state that the official English title is "Iron Maiden", and of course, have an "Iron Maiden" redirect to GoS.

I'm reconsidering the issue of exactly how #21' through #24' should be collectively designated, as I've come to feel that "NPC" is not appropriate for referencing the episodes as a whole since I discovered what the term actually means. That leaves the first two to choose between. Considering the first technically encompasses the entire series as it was originally released to video tape and laser disc, and not those four episodes specifically, I find myself leaning towards "Directors' Cuts" after all... Thoughts?

DC is fine with me. There have been a number of instances where I used NPC and someone didn't know wtf I was talking about. It may also be useful if we include a chart or something of the R1 releases vs. Japanese releases, since in the states ADV calls them DC and in Japan they're called NPCs (right?), so such a chart would eliminate any confusion on the matter.

As for the stuff to include etc. I had mentioned once to OMF that perhaps some of the "generally accepted" theories that often get cited in discussions should each have a wiki page of their own. Like MDWigs' stuff, Brendan's argument about non-concurrency, etc. So we can cite them within other wiki pages when needed.

I would like the Wiki to share a common screenshot archive with the Wiki.

I assume one of these "Wiki" should be replaced with "commentary" or something, but which one?

As for the images, should we advocate a specific schema for naming things? Perhaps something like:
<ep# or NFS or GOS or source>[-cut#]-<short_description>[-# to accommodate multiples].<extension>

where <> are required and [] are optional. Here are some examples:
ep02-Shinji_on_train.png
DerMond-Asuka_plugsuit-2.jpg
NFS-Rei_Fanart.gif (Not From Show can be replaced with something more appropriate, I made that up for the sake of this example)
OP-cut015-Shinji_looking_up.jpg (I made that up too)

Everything else I'm fine with

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Postby thewayneiac » Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:23 pm

I prefer the western name order myself; I had to use the Japanese order on the material I created in order to make the links work because the character pages were already set up that way.

OMF wrote:Do you mean that the wiki images should be usable from the rest of the site, because that may be a task that ranges from slightly difficult to nigh impossible.


I noticed there was no picture of Misato on her bio-page and so I tried to link to one in the commentary (as linked to in the Wiki, not the original version). It would not work. So this does seem to be a problem.

Ornette wrote:How about a "ve"? I can see possible confusion if an angel was referred to as "he" in one sentence and then a "she" in the following sentence. I think it would be better to settle on a precedence, and using gender neutral would probably get the fewest panties in knots. I, personally, don't mind the gender thing at all.


I will not use P.C. drivel terms like "ve" under any circumstances. Since Kaworu plainly calls Adam "mother" Adam should be refered to as "she".
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Postby Reichu » Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:00 am

Partial reply. In many cases, I want to wait until Mr. Tines, Dr. Nick, and Shin-seiki pitch in. (If the latter doesn't post soon-ish, could you give him a little poke, Wayne? HE MUST FULFILL HIS DUTIES.)

Note that I was also manically editing my posts while people were responding. Check out the edits; hopefully you'll be able to see what's new/different. (Yes, the typo is gone now.)

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:Just on the Spear/Lance thing, what about when we quote from Bochan Bird's translation? It uses Lance.

I'm going to write up some stuff that addresses problems like this.

Gender issues. Adam and Lilith are fine as "shes". So are the Evas I suppose(I'll try and avoid "its" in my edits).

:jawdrop:

Also, what is to be done with End of Evangelion? Specifically with regard to its canonicity in relation to the OA #25 and #26 episodes?

If the DCs take precedence over OAs, then, for consistency's sake, there should be a similar approach to EoE. However, the fact that EoE is not a mere "pampered-up version" of the original #25 and #26 complicates the matter.

Since I am having trouble articulating the applications of this policy in my mind, perhaps someone else can start things off. Unless making a new thread for that sort of crap is a Good Idea, in which case please say so.

As to the future image policy, I think it's best if that gets its own thread.

Here you go.

Ornette wrote:
Reichu wrote:Eva(ngelion) #gouki --> Eva(ngelion) Unit ##
#gouki --> EVA-##

Note how the proper abbreviated form substitutes "-ngelion Unit" with a dash. The capitalization derives from the fact that I don't think I've ever seen "Eva-##" in my Japanese stuff.

I'm a little confused here. Which one is the preferred usage?

Oh, I was showing how the Japanese designations are officially rendered in English. I basically means that you either use the expanded form of "Eva(n)gelion Unit ##", or the abbreviated form "EVA-##", but not "Unit-##" (or variations thereof) by itself, due to the fact that cannot recall ever seeing this usage in Japanese stuff.

It may also be useful if we include a chart or something of the R1 releases vs. Japanese releases, since in the states ADV calls them DC and in Japan they're called NPCs (right?), so such a chart would eliminate any confusion on the matter.

My word, yes, coverage will most certainly be provided to that most confusing, and popular, matter of NGE releases. But let's put that off for now; it will need its own thread :hahaha: once some other things are out of the way.

Regarding "NPCs", I actually found out that the term does not refer to the episodes at all, but to specific cuts produced anew for them: Each one is a "new production cut".

As for the stuff to include etc. <snip>

I will be making a thread (a-gain, with the new threads...) for this sort of discussion. Hold off for the moment.

thewayneiac wrote:
Ornette wrote:How about a "ve"? <snip>

I will not use P.C. drivel terms like "ve" under any circumstances. Since Kaworu plainly calls Adam "mother" Adam should be refered to as "she".

I believe Ornette was suggesting "ve" for #03 ~ #16 only. In terms of "P.C. drivel": GNPs like "ve" exist -- and are used in rather niche settings -- to satisfy a gap in the English language. The show gives us enough to reasonably treat the Seeds and Evas as feminine, so they aren't a problem. The god-children are rather more ... ambiguous. Again, the nitty-gritty details of biological sex and all that jive aside, NGE usually doesn't provide enough information to do a "gender assessment".

That ancient "gender assignment" list aside, the only ones I can say I have a 'firm committment' to at the current time:

Sachiel: M
Shamshel: F (Don't blame me. Blame Asari-san.)
Israfel: Merged is neutral. Splits into M (Kou) and F (Otsu).
Leliel: F.
Bardiel: M.
Zeruel: M.
Arael: F. (Probably.)
Armisael: F.

As for the rest, I'm like, :shrug:. So, I'm not entirely sure what I want to do about this. Although, again, it would be nice if we could distinguish ourselves and find a mutually agreeable way to avoid calling these individuals "its".

Yeah, I know, I get preoccupied with some unusual issues. Humor me. :P
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Postby Dr. Nick » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:42 pm

Reichu wrote:As a result, I make the tentative suggestion that Japanese name order is maintained in character dialogue (the script and citations thereof), but swapped in our own writing. This may create some confusion, but it's the best option, in my opinion.


Supported. Different text functions, different strategies, that's one of the first things they teach you in translator training.

For clarity's sake, besides explaining this policy (if adopted) in the manual/rulebook, the reasons could be briefly repeated somewhere in the commentary itself, too (and the same goes for whatever similar idiosyncrasies we may have/develop in the process).


Seele, Gehirn, and Nerv, rather than SEELE, GEHIRN, and NERV.


Remember to explain the rationale (not acronyms lol).

While "Girlfriend of Steel" is how the franchise is commonly referenced by English-speakers, the actual English-language title chosen by the makers is "Iron Maiden" (or "Iron Maiden 2nd", for the sequel). For purposes of conforming to Officialness, should we make "Iron Maiden" the default form?


I prefer GOS, since it's vastly more popular, and "Iron Maiden" just carries too much semantic baggage for us westerners.

LCL, or L.C.L.? I haven't done an extensive survey on which one shows up in official crap more often. Maybe I should.


Looks like the official crap they're selling is called LCL. AND IS THAT SOME WEBSTORE IRONY I SEE?!?

DO NOT mention something if you're not entirely sure about it. (E.g., the "I think Anno said..." sorts of things.) Bring it up with The Board first.


While I wholly endorse the strict policy of "source or it's fake", I believe it would do good for the flow of the commentary if sometimes we could present information in the form of this sort of short question-and-answer bits:

The Commentary of Future wrote:Commentator a: Speking of prostitutes, I've heard this rumor that Anno once killed a hooker, but I haven't been able to find anything to substantiate this story. So what's the truth?

Commentator b: This is another interesting piece of fan-lore. [...] In short, for all we know Anno has never killed a person, but he has been charged of assaulting midgets, as these police reports show [link].


Exchanges like this would make the commentary look spontaneous and discussion-like, which, I believe, is one of our editorial purposes.

Similarly (and this reiterates some stuff I've already said), try to avoid statements like "It is thought by some...", "Traditional wisdom maintains that...", "A popular misconception held by the masses...", etc., unless you know you can provide some form of substantiation for such claims.


So when we're debunking misconceptions, how solid research work do you require? Will linking to Evabest.com suffice?

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Postby Reichu » Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:31 pm

Quicky response:

Dr. Nick wrote:While I wholly endorse the strict policy of "source or it's fake", I believe it would do good for the flow of the commentary


Oh, I was just talking about guidelines for the Wiki articles, to start. The policies will overlap in places (like some of the 'standardizations'), but the specific rules applying to each one will need to be resolved separately. Commentary guidelines shouldn't require too much work; we just need to do some excavation, and revise where necessary. When we're ready to tackle this, I'll make a separate discussion thread; but I wanted to get this out of the way first so that people could be working on the Wiki while I work on getting the commentary ready.

Another matter for thought is style guidelines. This shouldn't be a big deal. I figure we stick to a "Hive Mind" tone for the Wiki (= not the Commentary). Wikipedia might serve as a model in this particular respect. Multiple people are going to be writing for the same thing, so we're going to need to approach the writing of this thing the same way. The Commentary will be an entirely different beast -- we get to exert our personalities there; it is a commentary, after all. But the two sections of the site will complement one another, if all goes According To Plan.

We still need to hear from Shin-seiki and Mr. Tines on the things mentioned so far. Once the guidelines are more solidified, we can start talking about adding scribes and a plan of attack for articles -- shit like that. First things first.
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Postby Dr. Nick » Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:07 pm

Sorry for the pointless comments: they simply result from the nature of the commentary-Wiki-interaction still being rather unclear to me.

For example, let's say the "barons of hell" misconception is brought up in the commentary main, accompanied with a "for further info, click here" link. Where does the link lead to? To an extended commentary/appedix page, written in a bubbly sparkly commentary style, or to a neutral Wiki page? Or will both of them exist parallel to each other (which would seem rather redundant)?

(Move this to the other Wiki thread if that's a more appropriate place for this.)

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:32 pm

Dr. Nick wrote:To an extended commentary/appedix page, written in a bubbly sparkly commentary style, or to a neutral Wiki page? Or will both of them exist parallel to each other (which would seem rather redundant)?

Eventually, the appendix pages, etc, etc, etc will all be hosted on the wiki. However, I don't see a reason why Wiki articles should conform to a NPOV, especially for FGC pages.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:02 pm

Dr. Nick wrote:Sorry for the pointless comments: they simply result from the nature of the commentary-Wiki-interaction still being rather unclear to me.

Hmm... :think: Now that you mention it, that does need to be resolved. I'm smelling another discussion thread. Bloody hell.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:46 pm

Reichu wrote:We still need to hear from Shin-seiki and Mr. Tines on the things mentioned so far.


There is nothing that causes me any pain in those guidelines.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:49 pm

So everyone is fully resolved to the westernised name order? This was something I'd hoped would get a little more debate.

Edit: Oh yes and before I forget. The wiki can link as normal to regular wiki pages. For example, you could link to the wiki page on LCL, or perhaps to the geektionary wiki page at any point. For "official" FGC pages, what we can simply do is place them in the FGC namespace, i.e. the page [[FGC:Sachiel-plugsuits]], which would be editable only by designated FGC editors.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:11 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:So everyone is fully resolved to the westernised name order?

Well, we still haven't heard from The Quiet One.
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Postby thewayneiac » Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:04 pm

Reichu wrote:
ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:So everyone is fully resolved to the westernised name order? I'd hoped would get a little more debate.

Well, we still haven't heard from The Quiet One.


When he gets motivated, Scott will tell you that he prefers westernized order.

The thing that decides it for me is that the Japanese prefer to flip their names when writing them in western languages. (or so I understand).
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Postby thewayneiac » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:45 pm

Reichu wrote:I. CHARACTER NAMES

Spelling and name order should go like so:

Gendo Ikari
Hikari Horaki
Kaworu Nagisa
Keel Lorenz
Kensuke Aida
Kozo Fuyutsuki
Makoto Hyuga
Maya Ibuki
Misato Katsuragi
Naoko Akagi
Rei Ayanami
Ritsuko Akagi
Ryoji Kaji
Shigeru Aoba
Shinji Ikari
Shiro Tokita
Asuka Langley Soryu
Kyoko Soryu Zeppelin
Toji Suzuhara
Yui Ikari

(This means you boys already have some corrections to make.)


Fixed. I also made the SEELE to Seele, and NERV to Nerv changes. I think I fixed most of the links, but we may have to pick up a few strays on the fly.
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Postby V » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:47 pm

General

• The original TV series is treated as the default for the entire site. The manga (and eventually Webuild, when there is substantial information on it) are to be mentioned in the context of being separate canons.

What I had thought was one of two possibilities: 1-make disambiguation pages, so “Shinji Ikari” leads to a disambiguation page that says “you mean mean “Shinji Ikari (NGE)” “Shinji Ikari (manga)” “Shinji Ikari (Rebuild” or “Shinji Ikari (ELAM)”….treating none of them as the definitive one. Or, option 2: do what we did for Lord of the Rings: make “Shinji Ikari” from the NGE/End of Eva continuity the “Default” one, and there are links to the other versions on that page, and there is no disambiguation page. So you’re officially saying you’d rather go with option 2? (just making things official) okay…..although if we get a TON of Rebuild and Live Action information we might re-arrange it later to option 1 (by which I mean, 2 or 3 years from now, depending on the situation at the time)

• The NPC episodes are to treated as "default" over the OAs, although the exact handling of this should be discussed.

Agreed. I don’t think the New Production Cut/Director’s Cut episodes are in “another universe” from the originally aired versions. The only significant difference is of course that the audio tracks were ENTIRELY redone even with recurring voice actors (i.e. “if Asuka fails she’ll never pilot again” versus “if that bitch fails I’ll never let her pilot again!”)…which can be expounded upon, but basically they’re the same “episode”….

I guess I should say at the start that I consider basically episodes 1 through 24 (including new production cut) basically “it”, “this is it, this is the show”. Then episodes 25 and 26….I think basically it’s a cross between “they happen in Shinji’s mind, during Third Impact” and “this is a nice little insight we get into what Asuka and Misato really think”. I personally consider End of Eva the “real” ending…though I respect that some people think it’s alternate. Still, as opposed to the Manga or Rebuild, ***I think we should consider both End of Eva and episodes 25 and 26 as part of “the NGE continuity”.


• For citational purposes (more on citations below), the Platinum and bochan_bird scripts are to be used as our "base". For the episodes the commentary has covered in full (or the scenes that I made pages for), those scripts would be used (and any problems peeps might have with them addressed sooner rather than later).

This ties into a bigger problem: I only saw the show when it ran on Adult Swim, and do not own any of the DVD’s. I HAVE rewatched it like 5 times on YouTube, and I usually watch another episode like every other day actually,…..***but sometimes it is hard for me to distinguish between alternate DVD release cuts (as far as I knew, it was “originally aired’ versus “new production cut for episodes 21-24” and no other different versions, right?) I tend to just use the English version as a starting point, and leave it to the experts to actually TRANSLATE the stuff.

***I do not speak a word of Japanese. Latin and Quenya are another matter….


Character names:

Should use the English name order: Shinji Ikari. Does hit a snag with multi-ethnic compound-named Asuka Langely Soryu. Just use the order the on air dialogue did, as you said (you SHOULD, Reichu, state what romanizations you want used, i.e. Soryu or Soryhu, whatever. I would point out that accent marks are difficult to use on a wiki, so rather than soryu with a little bar over the u, I’d rather you spelled it out longwise. Or, just use “Asuka Langley Soryu
Kyoko Soryu Zeppelin”----you’ve pretty much already decided that. Just saying, you have to say which one you want so we don’t end up redoing it a million times later on to fix it.

On the wiki, not the commentary, given names should always come first, family names last. If someone uses an honorific in a quote, we’ll just make a note of it in the “Quotes” section of a page (in italics, say that “in Japanese, this line is…etc etc.”) That is, if you’re citing the script, only mention the changing name-order if it is particularly relevant. Because the target audience of the English-language wiki is the English-speaking audience.

Angel names: no argument here.


“Eva(ngelion) #gouki --> Eva(ngelion) Unit ##
#gouki --> EVA-##

Note how the proper abbreviated form substitutes "-ngelion Unit" with a dash. The capitalization derives from the fact that I don't think I've ever seen "Eva-##" in my Japanese stuff.”

Alternate choices are here: Eva 01, Eva-01, EVA-01. I think using an all-caps “EVA” is garish (it’s not an acronym)….the big question is….do you want the “official” version to be with a dash or not? Eva 01 vs Eva-01? Should the “formal” name, for that matter, be Unit 01, or Eva 01, or do we always have to write-out “Eva Unit 01”? *or* is it okay if we just use a mix of each? As this is a matter of preference, essentially, it’s your choice Reichu, but you’ve got to make it before things get started.

Rei : do you want “Rei I, Rei II, Rei III” or “Rei 1, Rei 2, Rei 3”? Should there be separate character articles for each one? I would actually lean AGAINST that as they 1-have the same soul, 2-Rei I and Rei III did so little compared to the others, that they more warrant a subheading in the biography of “Rei Ayanami” rather than different pages. Your call, please explain.

I seriously think we should call them the “Lance of Longinus” and “Heavy Lance” because that’s what the English script uses.

Organizations: NERV, SEELE, and GEHIRN are always spelled with full caps, and even though they aren’t acronyms….yes, I think we should leave them like that because they’re *universally* spelled like that on screen.

Just call it “director’s cut”, with a note right on it that “these weren’t edited it, it’s just CALLED director’s cut but was produced later”

It’s spelled “A.T. Field” with two periods and a capital F. Okay, now that standard is set.

I don’t know what to call LCL. It DOES seem to be an acronym….your call.

Human/Angel problem; I don’t see a problem. Well, just say in the Angel description “in a sense, they’re an alternate version of humans” or “humans that rejected human form”…but in terms of categorization and such, this doesn’t affect anything.

I also prefer “Seed of Life”


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