Instrumentality: Yay or Nay? Also: speculation/consequences.
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- Sailor Star Dust
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Instrumentality: Yay or Nay? Also: speculation/consequences.
Since some other thread mentions this topic http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=203491
and there isn't one on these boards (according to other members) I decided to make this.
So, what do you think?
Instrumentality: The greatest thing to EVER happen or the worst?
Imo, its the worst thing ever: I'd say "Nay", two thumbs WAAAY down, the TRUE Bad End; let's get the Great Will to do a Reset PRONTO, etc, etc.
Regardless of whether it would have been Gendou or SEELE's Scenario, both would have just plain sucked since you cease to be yourself, hell, you cease to exist at all. Its essentially the same as Death.
That's why the Divinity Trinity (Yui, Lilith and Adam) did what they did after Shinji's decision. Humanity WASN'T Instrumentalizied, but instead simply stayed as Tang (slang for "LCL" for any N00bs out there).
I'd say Shinji rejected Instrumentality because despite what the batshit crazy religion of SEELE said, thinking its a step forwards (for evolution's sake or some such BS), its in fact a step backwards.
Yes, there's pain and suffering in life, but there's also a chance a pleasure and happiness, too, which goes along with Yui's words in episode 20, revisited in EoE. (Which is what I personally see the Final Scene as meaning, but that's a topic for another time. ;))
"It's alright."
The fact that Shinji realizes this and makes his decision, in my mind, shows that he HAS matured and grown, DESPITE his earlier suicidally-depressed state throughout EoTV/EoE. He was able to get out of that by seeing how wrong Instrumentality is ("It's different. It's different from what I thought."~What he literally said with rejecting it.) and that right there takes courage and strength...despite the fact Shinji thought he was spineless, a coward, blah blah blah.
"Thankyou." (This moment makes me tear up, its so sweet!)
...Come on everybody, let's give him a hearty "Congratulations!"
"Omedetou! ^__^" (Me, a Shinji Fangirl? No, no, n--yes, yes, yes. ^^; )
....*ahem* Thoughts on any of this?
and there isn't one on these boards (according to other members) I decided to make this.
So, what do you think?
Instrumentality: The greatest thing to EVER happen or the worst?
Imo, its the worst thing ever: I'd say "Nay", two thumbs WAAAY down, the TRUE Bad End; let's get the Great Will to do a Reset PRONTO, etc, etc.
Regardless of whether it would have been Gendou or SEELE's Scenario, both would have just plain sucked since you cease to be yourself, hell, you cease to exist at all. Its essentially the same as Death.
That's why the Divinity Trinity (Yui, Lilith and Adam) did what they did after Shinji's decision. Humanity WASN'T Instrumentalizied, but instead simply stayed as Tang (slang for "LCL" for any N00bs out there).
I'd say Shinji rejected Instrumentality because despite what the batshit crazy religion of SEELE said, thinking its a step forwards (for evolution's sake or some such BS), its in fact a step backwards.
Yes, there's pain and suffering in life, but there's also a chance a pleasure and happiness, too, which goes along with Yui's words in episode 20, revisited in EoE. (Which is what I personally see the Final Scene as meaning, but that's a topic for another time. ;))
"It's alright."
The fact that Shinji realizes this and makes his decision, in my mind, shows that he HAS matured and grown, DESPITE his earlier suicidally-depressed state throughout EoTV/EoE. He was able to get out of that by seeing how wrong Instrumentality is ("It's different. It's different from what I thought."~What he literally said with rejecting it.) and that right there takes courage and strength...despite the fact Shinji thought he was spineless, a coward, blah blah blah.
"Thankyou." (This moment makes me tear up, its so sweet!)
...Come on everybody, let's give him a hearty "Congratulations!"
"Omedetou! ^__^" (Me, a Shinji Fangirl? No, no, n--yes, yes, yes. ^^; )
....*ahem* Thoughts on any of this?
Last edited by Sailor Star Dust on Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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There may be some substance here
http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1688
http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=737
But carry one as you were in the one.
http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1688
http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=737
But carry one as you were in the one.
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- King_Panther13
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I would say no to it, as I like having my own personal identity. Sure, no more pain, but no more pleasure either. Though I'm not sure I completely understand instrumentality at the moment. Wasn't it going to be a joining of all human souls to become one super being? Then Shinji rejected it, and the ocean of tang is the after-effect I'm guessing.
I find it ironic that the very technology SEELE exploited in order to bring about their loony schemes could in fact have been used to promote real evolution, real improvement of the species. Artificial intelligence, cybernetics on a massive scale, high-energy quantum mechanics... in the end, it all would have gone to waste had their so-called vision been realized. Likewise, Second Impact seems to have brought most of the world's surviving people closer together, driving home the fact that they needed to learn to coexist if any of them were to have a future. To the old men, that spirit of cooperation was also no more than a convenience to be used and discarded.
In any case, the Human Instrumentality Project was a dead end forced on the denizens of the planet by a small and narrow-minded cabal as the ultimate completion of their obsolete and useless faith. I would liken it to blowing oneself up for the sake of a fairy tale's promise of forty virgins, and so it gets a very strong Thumbs Down.
In any case, the Human Instrumentality Project was a dead end forced on the denizens of the planet by a small and narrow-minded cabal as the ultimate completion of their obsolete and useless faith. I would liken it to blowing oneself up for the sake of a fairy tale's promise of forty virgins, and so it gets a very strong Thumbs Down.
Instrumentality in my opinion would be the worst thing to happen. As stated before, it is the idea of a small `cult`and not the whole world (unless they took a world wide survey). The worst part of the whole thing is that everyone is forced into this, not just the people who want this to happen to them(That`s like dropping a nuclear bomb on a country because the current leader of the country doesn`t like them all that much.). People are weird.
On a side note, I always thought that Gendou`s version was that he wanted to get the power of Lilith and Adam to possibly try and bring Yui back(or rule the world).
On a side note, I always thought that Gendou`s version was that he wanted to get the power of Lilith and Adam to possibly try and bring Yui back(or rule the world).
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IMO, Instrumentality is like punching the reset after a boss battle and having to do it all over again. Its not totally bad, you get to go back and see the things you messed up on so you don't make the same mistakes again.
I think it would be fairly safe to say that Shinji learned something about others from Instrumentality, although its hard to tell exactly what he learned. Strangling girls is bad, Shinji. I think his worldview is probably a bit broader, and I think if he had to do it all over again, he would probably manage to do a bit better, unless he has a total breakdown everytime he sees an Eva now.
Of course, the planet is probably shot, crops will fail, wars will probably happen on a massive scale if people come back, and by the end the Earth will be a radioactive smoking cinder...but we learned a valuable lesson about ourselves and others, right?!?
I think it would be fairly safe to say that Shinji learned something about others from Instrumentality, although its hard to tell exactly what he learned. Strangling girls is bad, Shinji. I think his worldview is probably a bit broader, and I think if he had to do it all over again, he would probably manage to do a bit better, unless he has a total breakdown everytime he sees an Eva now.
Of course, the planet is probably shot, crops will fail, wars will probably happen on a massive scale if people come back, and by the end the Earth will be a radioactive smoking cinder...but we learned a valuable lesson about ourselves and others, right?!?
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Essel's Corollary: The simplest explanation is never the fanon one.
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Vane wrote:it is the idea of a small `cult`and not the whole world
These guys are planning something similar, and are dead serious about it. There is a lot of techno-millenialist feeling out there in the real world.
Vane wrote:Gendou`s version
I got the idea that there would be a temporary tangification, but using Shougouki rather than GNR as the focus (the Ark of Eva); and then Yui could re-embody along with everyone else.
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- Anonymous_Evafan
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Mr. Tines wrote:These guys are planning something similar, and are dead serious about it. There is a lot of techno-millenialist feeling out there in the real world.
Those guys can kiss my ass, and so can anyone who thinks like them. If they want to do it to themselves fine, just leave me the hell out of it!
- Sailor Star Dust
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If horrible things will happen after Shinji returned, then why did Yui contain the splash of GNR's head in her AT Field?
Why make sure things would be alright (e.g: towns in distance=food & water) if not so that people could live on once they choose to, considering how much Yui-sama loved her son (LOL STOPPING SEELE FOR Shinji'S SAKE)??
I agree with what Smith said about SEELE being utterly stupid with not promoting evolution properly and instead planned on forcing people into Instrumentality... <_<; Um, right. HAY GUYS, HOWZ ABOUT TRYING TO MAKE THE WORLD BETTER BEFORE KILLING YOURSEVLES OFF?
And in case I didn't mention it before (thought I did, but...) the scenario that happened was according to Yui, Rei, & Kaworu; they were simply trying to show their favorite [surrogate, context depending] son the correct path to take , since Instrumentality was unavoidable and all. (See my rambling here: http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=85002#85002)
Though to be frank, what I find sad is the people out there (RL) that think such things would be good. :shock: Like I said earlier, how about trying to work with what we have and make life better instead?
...Have I ever mentioned that I like the way you think? (QFTFT)
Why make sure things would be alright (e.g: towns in distance=food & water) if not so that people could live on once they choose to, considering how much Yui-sama loved her son (LOL STOPPING SEELE FOR Shinji'S SAKE)??
I agree with what Smith said about SEELE being utterly stupid with not promoting evolution properly and instead planned on forcing people into Instrumentality... <_<; Um, right. HAY GUYS, HOWZ ABOUT TRYING TO MAKE THE WORLD BETTER BEFORE KILLING YOURSEVLES OFF?
And in case I didn't mention it before (thought I did, but...) the scenario that happened was according to Yui, Rei, & Kaworu; they were simply trying to show their favorite [surrogate, context depending] son the correct path to take , since Instrumentality was unavoidable and all. (See my rambling here: http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=85002#85002)
Though to be frank, what I find sad is the people out there (RL) that think such things would be good. :shock: Like I said earlier, how about trying to work with what we have and make life better instead?
AEF wrote:If they want to do it to themselves fine, just leave me the hell out of it!
...Have I ever mentioned that I like the way you think? (QFTFT)
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- shinesman_cobalt
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I think it would be a good thing. With 3I, every human in the world gets turned turned into orange fanta and merged into one being. There would be no more struggles to understand other humans, or to be understood. We would all be one. One big happy Borg cube. XD it would be the end of suffering, loss, fear and all that bad stuff. I really see no downside. You know that hot chick you saw at the arcade yesterday? You would be merged with her in a way that surpasses sex. You know all your family and friends, merged with them too. You would understand their feelings and minds jsut as well as you understand yours. Lol this igetting pretty long, so I'll jsut say, it sounds like a good thing.
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- Sailor Star Dust
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Debate/ But how can Instrumentality be a good thing when you're not even aware of your own existence (case in pont: see the various rambling in episodes 25 & 26, EoTV, before Shinji rejects Instrumentality), thus ceasing to be yourself? /Debate
...And on a slightly silly note, just because you're with said hot chick doesn't mean anything good: you can't even score with her if you so desired! :cry:
...And on a slightly silly note, just because you're with said hot chick doesn't mean anything good: you can't even score with her if you so desired! :cry:
Last edited by Sailor Star Dust on Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sailor Star Dust wrote:not even aware of your own existence
Instrumentality as we were shown it was rather the opposite -- you were aware of everyone's existence (Sartre: "l'enfer, c'est les autres").
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- CorporalChaos
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Sailor Star Dust wrote:Debate/ But how can Instrumentality be a good thing when you're not even aware of your own existence, thus ceasing to be yourself? /Debate
Existentialism is hard to deal with, isn't it. My mind can usually wrap around abstract thoughts, but being merged with another 3 billion souls and not being self-aware, that is one thing I just can't wrap around....
Myself, I believe that the people in the bowl of soup are still very dimly self-aware, otherwise it would be impossible to come back. There has to be something left for you to wrap a conscience around if you want to reform your body, its impossible to come back as yourself if there is no sense of self to even start with, anywhere. Man, words are having a tough time trying to explain that.
Although if you did decide you were wanted to come back and were able, there are probably lots of lessons to be learned.
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Wait, so itsshinesman_cobalt wrote:I don't think you loose all sense of self. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to come back. Also, You wouldnt need to "score" with the hot chick, because your minds would already be merged in a way that surpasses any physical intamcy.
"Instrumentality: Better than sex!" ?
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shinesman_cobalt wrote:I don't think you loose all sense of self. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to come back. Also, You wouldnt need to "score" with the hot chick, because your minds would already be merged in a way that surpasses any physical intamcy.
They were able to come back because INSTRUMENTALITY HAS ENDED. Otherwise there'd be no sense of "self".
As for Yui and Gendo's plans, see Mr. Tines' explaination.
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Well, on a basic level, 3I sounds like a good deal. Ify ou think about it, most of the pain and suffering in the world comes from trying to understand and relate to other humans beings. With 3I, it would be an end to all of that, since we would all be esencially the same being.
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