Asuka and Hikari

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Asuka and Hikari

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:32 pm

I felt it was time to seriously discuss something that hasn't really gotten the discussion it needs yet. This has mostly all been brought up before, but I can't find a discussion thread devoted to the topic. So, here's an old favourite of Mr. Tines;
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It's easy to miss, but is there something deeper behind Hikari's words here? "...Whatever you want...", "...I won't say anything...". I'm concerned over nuances in the translation, but as it stands you'd have to admit that the words are fairly suspect. But is Hikari really giving Asuka "carte blanche" to have her way with her? It seems more than a little incredulous upon first inspection.

But, Yuri shipping aside, I think this is something that does need to be seriously looked at. For one reason in particular; the scene was redone in the new production (Director's) cuts. For comparison.

OA shots
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NPC Shots
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And here's a wide shot, which I believe is the same in both versions.
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As has been noted before, if a scene was added or touched up in the NPC episodes, then it's usually a string hint that there is a link to something in End of Evangelion. But if so where's the link here? I see candidates in;

The hospital scene.
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Asuka's posture is similar, as is her disheveled hair. There is no analogue for Hikari, but there is a definite sexual message in this scene. But are they connected?

Another, weak, candidate is the beach scene, but really I'm just looking for an analogue to Hikari's stare.
Image

Aside from EoE scenes, there is another potential partner for the sleepover scene in episode #23'. Namely during Misato's faux pax. Here we certainly have a character offering themselves sexually (Misato), and there is some similarity in the shots of Shinji and Asuka when compared side by side.

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But are these potential matches in and of themselves conclusive? I think there needs to be a good argument, or further evidence before a solid connection could be made here. Not least of which is Hikari's implied homosexuality, which it is safe to say does not get any Maya/Ritsuko treatment.

Personally, I am still dubious of any sexual allusions or offerings in Hikari's speech. But yet her words in just about any other mouth would imply just that. And most importantly of all, the scene was retouched in the NPC episodes, a fact which cannot be easily dismissed. I think this needs to be looked at in depth, so I hope we can have a good long debate as to what is going on here and what Hikari's choice of words really means.
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Postby The Goose » Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:37 pm

I don't think Hikari is offering Asuka sex, I think she is offering help with what Asuka is going through. Also, Hikari has the hots for Touji. The postures of the characters might be showing how all the characters have problems and that they are lonely.

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Postby NAveryW » Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:38 pm

It is quite an interesting find. My thoughts in comparing Hikari and Misato are that they are both "the one[s] who [are] lonely". Hikari, I'm guessing, because she's lost Touj-... wait, that didn't happen in the anime. :?
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Postby DatDude » Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:46 pm

I think it was more hikari saying it is alright for Asuka to cry if she needs to.

Something Asuka wouldn't do normaly.

Also I think if they did do anything sexual or if Hikari really did try at least it would have been shown in EoE.

But then again I'm willing to play devils advocate for a bit here.

OMF laid things out pretty well, but my dvds are stowed a away and I can't rewatch the scene myself.

Is their any physical contact between the two? Anything like the Misato touching Shinji's hand bit that forshadowed the kissing scene in EoE?
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Postby the_seventh_child » Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:56 pm

DatDude wrote:I think it was more hikari saying it is alright for Asuka to cry if she needs to.

Something Asuka wouldn't do normaly.


I'm with you on this one.

In the NPC shot, it is redone that way, so it seems more like Asuka does cry,--also Hikari's face is a bit sadder--, while on the OA shot, they are not that clear.
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Postby Ornette » Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:01 pm

The rest of Hikari's line was "Because I think you did your best"

DatDude wrote:I think it was more hikari saying it is alright for Asuka to cry if she needs to.

Something Asuka wouldn't do normaly.

And Asuka cried right afterwords.

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Postby DatDude » Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:16 pm

the_seventh_child wrote:
DatDude wrote:I think it was more hikari saying it is alright for Asuka to cry if she needs to.

Something Asuka wouldn't do normaly.


I'm with you on this one.

In the NPC shot, it is redone that way, so it seems more like Asuka does cry,--also Hikari's face is a bit sadder--, while on the OA shot, they are not that clear.


OK I realy dont see anything sexual in that scene then.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:22 pm

While I appreciate the nice analysis, I think this is just reaching for straws when we don't need any. I'm content to think Hikari was just trying to comfort Asuka (in a non-sexual way), and giving her the OK to cry or let out her frustrations or whatever.
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Postby THE Hal E. Burton 9000 » Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:54 pm

What The Goose and Eva Yojimbo said...
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Postby Opteron-O3 » Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:05 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:While I appreciate the nice analysis, I think this is just reaching for straws when we don't need any. I'm content to think Hikari was just trying to comfort Asuka (in a non-sexual way), and giving her the OK to cry or let out her frustrations or whatever.


That's how I saw it. Was a nice analysis, got me thinking for a while. :wink:
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Re: Asuka and Hikari

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Postby Shin-seiki » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:31 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:As has been noted before, if a scene was added or touched up in the NPC episodes, then it's usually a string hint that there is a link to something in End of Evangelion.
While it is true that many cuts and/or whole scenes in the DC eps were added or modified in order to establish a material link with some corresponding scene in EoE, it is also true that some of the modifications were simply to improve the animation, or to make the character designs consistent with their new EoE look (a different outfit animated the NPC/EoE)

For instance, I don't think that the change in this cut ("I see... I'm the one that's lonely")
ImageImage

...has any material correspondence to anything particular in EoE.

As for Hikari's words, I never took the idea that that was some sort of double entendre seriously; I thought that was just Tines living up to his role as our resident "Dirty Old Man"...
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Postby Executor » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:35 pm

All that Hikari was trying to do was comfort Asuka. What's next, an abridged analisis of Pen-Pen being the true ruler of the Eva-verse? Or that Misato is a lesbian? Or that Gendo is a mysaginist prick?

God, this is getting tiring.

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Postby DatDude » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:40 pm

Executor wrote:All that Hikari was trying to do was comfort Asuka. What's next, an abridged analisis of Pen-Pen being the true ruler of the Eva-verse? Or that Misato is a lesbian? Or that Gendo is a mysaginist prick?

God, this is getting tiring.


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Postby NAveryW » Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:20 pm

Executor wrote:What's next, an abridged analisis of Pen-Pen being the true ruler of the Eva-verse? Or that Maya is a lesbian? Or that Gendo is a mysaginist prick?

Fixed.
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Postby Shin-seiki » Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:26 pm

Hey, wait a minute! Didn't Anno tell Yuko Miyamura something like "picture yourself lying unconscious, with a guy there who could do whatever he wanted to you (and you "wouldn't say a thing" cuz you're unconscious, natch), he could rape you, but instead he just jerks off over you: how would you feel?", and Miyamura responded with "kimochi warui"

Is the correspondence of the #23' cut with #25' (Asuka in the hospital bed) Anno's way of subtlely connecting Hikari's words (which are perfectly innocent in their original context) with Shinji's "disgusting" behavior in #25'?

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Postby NAveryW » Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:46 pm

The positions are indeed quite similar; I'll give you that.

Though, even if Hikari did have some sort of seck-shoo-ul thoughts about Asuka, would it really affect the plot that much? Even if it were true, it'd be something that's just sort of there.
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Postby Executor » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:09 am

NAveryW wrote:The positions are indeed quite similar; I'll give you that.

Though, even if Hikari did have some sort of seck-shoo-ul thoughts about Asuka, would it really affect the plot that much? Even if it were true, it'd be something that's just sort of there.

No, it really wouldnt at this point in the story.

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Re: Asuka and Hikari

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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:39 am

Shin-seiki wrote:As for Hikari's words, I never took the idea that that was some sort of double entendre seriously; I thought that was just Tines living up to his role as our resident "Dirty Old Man"...


Yes, it's true. I do follow the operating procedure as laid down in Tom Lehrer's song "Smut" ("When correctly viewed/Everything is lewd"); but that line did bring me up short with a "wait, wut?" when it came on, the way it was phrased in the context.

The boring interpretation is a very passive form of support for Asuka in her current woes -- it could equally be read as "If you want to cut your wrists, then I'll not try and stop you."
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:58 am

DatDude wrote:I think it was more hikari saying it is alright for Asuka to cry if she needs to.

Something Asuka wouldn't do normaly.

Ornette wrote:And Asuka cried right afterwords.


This is the kind of insight I was hoping would be achieved. Kudos to DatDude for a sharp appraisal of the scene. This interpretation firmly makes sense.

An understanding Hikari giving a bottled up Asuka room to breathe. Awkward certainly, as revealed in the wide shot, but certainly a kindness. Let all lewd allusions now be put to rest.

Seeing the scene in this context, as Asuka being given room to cry, brings to mind the events of the episode. There's a number of references to crying in this here. Asuka, Rei II's tears in the entry plug, Rei III again crying in her apartment, Shinji's declaration that he has run out of tears, Ritsuko finally breaking down in Terminal Dogma, and of course, not least of all, the very name of the episode itself is "Tears".

Shin-seiki wrote:Is the correspondence of the #23' cut with #25' (Asuka in the hospital bed) Anno's way of subtlely connecting Hikari's words (which are perfectly innocent in their original context) with Shinji's "disgusting" behavior in #25'?

I think this is not entirely impossible, but nonetheless unlikely. There are only so many ways of lying in bed after all. Rather we should look within the episode itself for connections to this scene. The "tears" connection is I think the primary thrust of the scene. (Although, Shinji does begin crying in the hospital scene.... oh dear.)
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Postby slothen » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:42 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:Let all lewd allusions now be put to rest.


it was about time... I thought you guys were all crazy with your "Zomg Hikari is teh lezbo!" theories.
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