Rei I, II, and III The same person or different people?

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

Moderator: Board Staff

Forum rules
By visiting this forum, you agree to read the rules for discussion and abide by them.
Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 6697
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:52 pm

It's a matter of interpretation, but personally, I'd say they're different people.

Something obviously gets transfered over, at least the alien component that Gendo actually needs, but they have ostensibly different personalities.

I think it was explicitly stated in some staff interviews that they backup her memories during the tube sessions, but that's a bit like pasted on-data.
Rei III ostensibly knows who Shinji is when she first encounters him, but she doesn't remember what happened since the last backup session, and she barely reacts to him. She only knows it, but she can't quite feel it. There's an echo of sorts, but is that really her own? At first, it stops her from crushing the glasses. But a while latter, she does crush them.
He came to check on her - the previous one always reacted strongly to such occurences.

And there are these lines from ep 25:
ReiIII: How can all of you possibly be me?
ReII: It's simply that the other call us 'Ayanami Rei.'

ReiI: We're all things that are called that.

ReiI: "You're afraid that you will dissapear from the minds of others if another exists" - there were images of the clones shown, but also allusions to Lillith made.
Basically, no one will notice she's gone, or she as a person, Rei the schoolgirl will be forgotten, because "That's really Yui" or "That's really Lillith" and she was afraid of that, with the next clone going,
"Wut, no, actually, I dun feel any fear, let's march back to Lillith. Damn Gendo for creating me in the first place."

Or the way the famous line is worded: "If I die, I can be replaced" not, "This can't kill me anyway" or "This will only destroy my body, anyway."

In a way, that scene from ep 25 was an examination of the aspects that make a person a person. There's nature (Represented by Rei I - Yui, Lillith, etc, whatever she's crafted from, and in a meta context, genetics in general), nurture (represented by Rei II - connections with ppl, most notably the Ikaris.) and the favorite of any existentialist, a person's own decisions and interpretations, represented by Rei III.

The EoTv!One seems to ultimately stay conflicted and yield to Gendo's wish, the EoE!one seems to reach some middle ground - She goes merge with Lillith, but part of her motivation is also to check on Shinji since he's apparently screaming his lungs out for some reason, and let him decide stuff.

I think Hayashibara even subtly differentiates them in the conversation, with Rei II having the usual "quiet victorian heroine"-voice and Rei III a bit more womanly, bit like Glados without morality core, but to a less comical extent. Or maybe that's just me.

But there are differences in personality - Rei III was practically always glaring whenever her expression wasn't blank, she reacted to Kaworu with mostly suspicion and she was the type to have this silently simmering resentment, she didn't turn on Gendo until the very end even though she practically hated him from day one - whenever someone got ReiII pissed off, which didn't happen often, they found out immediately afterwards because she immediately made sure to communicate to Shinji (ep 5) and Asuka (ep 16) that she begs to differ, and she didn't seem to keep any grudges, not even against Asuka or freakin' Armisael.

ReiIII resented her existence, but ReiII just thought it weasn't that vbaluable, but she liked it whenever someone did treat her as valuable, and by ep 23, she clearly told Armisael not to absorb her. Ep 25 sorta implies that she was secretly afraid of dissapearing.

And there's the entire Gendo thing - That wasn't just blind obedience, that was genuine loyalty, she wouldn't have him insulted and silently smiled to herself when thinking about him.
Yeah, Gendo may not have earned that loyalty in an entirely fair way, given the circumstances, I don't think you should be willing to die for someone who wouldn't die for you, and Gendo certainly wouldn't die for real, but that doesn't change that Rei was genuinely loyal in the way of an emotional bond.
The plan ultimately comes first, yeah, but that's the same with Gendo's biological child, and that he cares for her less than he cares for the plan does not mean he doesn't care for her at all. They do have some sort of silent understanding between them, we see them smile at each other (ep 5 and like every tube scene) they have lunch together, they discuss school.
Sure, the reason he got attached to her to begin with is that she reminds him of his wife whom she misses, he may have projected some of the feelings for his real child whom he wouldn't face, but "Rei" is what he would have named his daughter. There is a certain distance between them that you wouldn't expect between a normal father and daughter, but he wouldn't let an actual biological daughter any closer, either, that's simply all the proximity he's capable of. Yeah, he's not exactly the world's best parent by far, but he has shown on several occassion that she's no less important to him than his actual son.
There was always a certain silent understanding between them.

The most prevalent theory is that of a gradual loyalty shift, but I don't think that's what we see here. Yeah, there were indications of the distance involved but by ep 22, she'd still die for him, and there's that last flash she saw of him...
It's more a matter of, "One clone liked him, the next didn't." hence that scene in 22 where she grabs herself the glasses.
He should have invested in her more, perhaps, but he probably thought he didn't need to because he likes to think he can raise the dead.

Rebuild, including Q  SPOILER: Show
Rebuild as a whole, including Q, seems to strongly push the "different people" interpretation, I think one of the staff interviews, I think it was Ogata's, had her say something like "he thought he saved her, but it was a completely different person" or stuff.
You could argue that the situation is not entirely the same since some component of Rei II is preserved in EVA 01 and didn't get transfered into ReiQ, but there's also the thematic focus there, both on Shinji saying "his" Rei is irreplaceable to him, and the scene where ReiQ converses with Asuka.
"What would Ayanami Rei do if she were here?"
"Who cares, do what YOU want!"

The interesting thing is that ReiQ is even distinct from classic!ReiIII. Yet another different way to react to the same situation.
It's also an interesting continuation from that line in ep 25 - For once, someone is NOT calling the next Ayanami Rei, cue mayor effect.


As for the room, it's not really that difficult - most people prefer surroundings similar to those they were familiar with when they grew up.
If you grow up in the mountains, you'll like mountains, if you grew up by the seal, you'll get all nostalgic at the sight of boats.
Rei grew up in a lab, so she prefers to live in places that look like labs.
I wanted to try harvesting the rice

I wanted to hold Tsubame more

I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like

Dream
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3284
Joined: Dec 08, 2011

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Dream » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:21 pm

Yeah, Gendo may not have earned that loyalty in an entirely fair way, given the circumstances, I don't think you should be willing to die for someone who wouldn't die for you, and Gendo certainly wouldn't die for real, but that doesn't change that Rei was genuinely loyal in the way of an emotional bond.
The plan ultimately comes first, yeah, but that's the same with Gendo's biological child, and that he cares for her less than he cares for the plan does not mean he doesn't care for her at all. They do have some sort of silent understanding between them, we see them smile at each other (ep 5 and like every tube scene) they have lunch together, they discuss school.


I imagine this was a very strong source of conflicting feelings and doubt within Rei (maybe visually represented by that ep. 5 frame of her talking to Gendo put in a red background we saw in ep. 25) Even when they talk or are together in a father-daughter esque way, she simply knows (and is made aware when things like the tube-backups come up) that at the moment of truth Gendo will have no problem discarding/using her, and while it's true he cared a lot about her, i'm pretty sure she must have constantly questioned the honesty of those feelings or just never believed them at all. I guess that's part of why i could never fully believed Rei really liked Gendo that much. How can you love someone whom you knows considers you a means to a grand plan or a substitute for his wife or child?
"Every line is a joy" -Kaworu Nagisa.

"Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm." - Ralph Waldo Emerson.

K40s
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Age: 40
Posts: 354
Joined: Jan 12, 2013
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby K40s » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:42 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:As I see it, Lilith becomes Rei 1, is split into Rei2 and Unit0, which are later recombined (possibly with Armisarael and all the other non-Adam angels as well?) into Rei3, who finally merges with Adam and her original body to become GNR.

They are different each time because they are broken up or merged with others, and have different experiences along the way, but it's still the same soul throughout.

Bagheera had another theory a while ago that seemed viable, but I'm not sure I can explain it clearly/correctly.
Never thought of it like that: the whole of Lilith's soul going into Rei 1, leaving Lilith's body completely soulless?
then Rei 1 (Lilith)'s soul gets split into eva-00 and Rei 2, Lilith's body remains soulless?
When eva-00 and Rei 2 die, both soul halfs are recombined into Rei 3, while Lilith's body remains soulless?

The problems I see with this:
eva-00 soul being identified in the script as Rei 1's, this could indicate that Rei 1's soul wasn't split at all.
Lilith remaining soulless, Lilith regrows her legs in the series and in EoE welcomes Rei 3 back, this could indicate that at least a piece of soul was there at least at those points when Lilith's body shows responses.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:The short version: there are no splits, because Nerv is incompetent. :lol:

The less-short version:
-- Nerv tries to get Yui back, gets Lilith instead (in the form of Rei I). Rei I dies, goes back to Lilith (because Lilith can do this, as seen in EoE and presumably offscreen with Kaji).
Wasn't the whole Rei ghosts collecting souls, the result of the Rei/Kaworu hybrid's living-god super-powers being able to trascend space and time? we see a Rei apparition when Shinji arrives, and in several instances before the hybrid is "born" and after she dies, we see the Rei on the sea of LCL at the very end.
-- Gendo goes "shit, lost my Reibot." He frets, then says "well, it worked once, so we'll do it again." He does whatever he did when trying to get Yui back the first time and gets Rei II.
-- Rei II sits in Unit 00, and of course nothing happens since it has no soul. She does a CE, and her soul gets split a la Kyoko (but Rei handles it better because LILITH). So the crazy we saw in Rei I and later on in Lilith becomes Unit 00's soul, which is why it's so unstable.
Rei 1 in the script as eva-00 soul, that makes me think that any split would have been before Rei 1.
-- Rei II goes BOOM! Lilith collects the pieces of her soul ("This deal gets worse all the time . . . ").
I've thought something similar, instead of Lilith collecting, maybe the souls simply go back on their own, the main problem I see here is Ritsuko salvaging Rei 2's body while discarding eva-00's remains, that and the quantum Reis collecting the souls from the dead bodies in EoE, makes me think that they need Rei 2's remains to salvage her soul...
-- Gendo rinses and repeats, hoping the memory backup deal we see in the later episodes is enough to do the trick. But Lilith is tired of this merry-go-round business and becomes cranky and petulant as a result, hence her telling Gendo to fuck off when he starts molesting her (not that she'd need a reason, but still).
-- Rei III rejoins Lilith and spends EoTV and part of EoE trying to sort all this shit out (hence three Reis and whatever the fuck that thing from Unit 00 was).
the main issue I see is Lilith's being soulless to restore her legs and welcome Rei 3.

Another thing to consider are the Rei clones in the aquarium, it seems that all 14 Rei bodies were created at the same time, so Rei 1 got a soul and the other 13 remained in the tank, then Rei 2, 12 remain, and finally Rei 3, 11 remain, the ones (Rei 4 to Rei 14) that Ritsuko destroys.
Last edited by K40s on Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bagheera
Asuka's Bulldog
Asuka's Bulldog
User avatar
Posts: 18679
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:09 pm

View Original PostK40s wrote:The problems I see with this:
eva-00 soul being identified in the scrip as Rei 1's, this could indicate that Rei 1's soul wasn't split at all.


The problem is that Rei I is also present in that scene. If Rei I is there and Rei I is talking it makes sense to assume that she's talking while Unit 00's soul is onscreen, not that Unit 00 is also somehow Rei I.

Wasn't the whole Rei ghosts collecting souls, the result of the Rei/Kaworu hybrid's living-god super-powers being able to trascend space and time?


Given the power Adam demonstrates during 2I there's no reason to think Lilith, being a Seed as well, isn't capable of similar displays of power. IMO the "forbidden union" simply allows the Seeds to reset life on a world, something they are normally not allowed to do (which is why Seele created this farce to begin with; Lilith wouldn't do what they wanted to do just because of religious boner, so they had to drag Adam into the mix to force the issue).

I've thought something similar, instead of Lilith collecting, maybe the souls simply go back on their own, the main problem I see here is Ritsuko salvaging Rei 2's body while discarding eva-00's remains, that and the quantum Reis collecting the souls from the dead bodies in EoE, makes me think that they need Rei 2's remains to salvage her soul...


That's a common thought, but as I noted Lilith can already do that. There's really no need to assume Nerv had anything to do with it, and Ritz might easily have been collecting Rei II's remains to download her most recent memories instead of anything else. She might also have been investigating the meaning of the angel tower, which would require Rei's remains.

the main issue I see is Lilith's being soulless to restore her legs and welcome Rei 3.


No reason to think she's completely soulless; we already know souls can get torn up in NGE (c.f. Kyoko), and the processes involved here are similar to those in Kyoko's CE.

But then, it could also just be a byproduct of Lilith's power source, with her "soul" amounting to no more than what we see in the Rei clones.

Another thing to consider are the Rei clones in the aquarium,


What about them?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

K40s
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Age: 40
Posts: 354
Joined: Jan 12, 2013
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby K40s » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:51 pm

I guess that in order to put the pieces (ha ha nice pun :lol: ) together in regards of Rei/Lilith soul we should collect all the facts we have about the following events:

The CE with Adam and how Kaworu and the Adam embryo came into being
The CE with eva-01 (was lilith still attached at this point?) and Yui and how the 14 Rei bodies came into being.
Lilith's body on the cross, her status, when she suffered changes (like regrowing legs and such) was her impaled or not, etc... and Rei status at the same time.
Rei personalities and memories.
The Rei backup scenes.
eva-00 behaviour.

As I said I've been theorizing a mechanism where the souls move on their own instead of being moved by Nerv...

Let's take Kyoko's CE, she apparently dove directly into eva-02's soulless core like Yui did and emerged with her soul split... so her body and eva-02's were joined during the experiment and her soul was able to transcend the boundaries of her own body and enter into contact with eva-02's body.

Now imagine souls being like something sticky or that is attracted like magnetism, so when her soul transcends the barrier of her body it's able to get back to it because is anchored or magnetized to it, because of the experiment it also gets "magnetized" to eva-02's body, when they removed Kyoko's body from eva-02's core, the soul splits because it was "magnetized" to both bodies and the bodies get physically separated.

When Kyoko suicides the soul piece simply flies to reunite with the piece in eva-02, since it's the only anchor that it has that point.

Now let's apply that same principle to Yui and Rei:

Yui does the CE with eva-01, the same happens, she wanted to remain in eva-01 so she willingly renounces to the "anchor" to her own body...

With Rei it gets tricky, it seems that Rei was born during Yui's CE, they tried to recover Yui from eva-01 but they either:
1) got only a soulless body and performed a CE with the empty Rei and Lilith and the same soul split procedure happened but in reverse this time.
2) they got the first Rei already with soul: eva-01 and Lilith were connected at the time of Yui's CE, so Lilith's soul was magnetized to both Lilith and eva-01, then Yui did a bait and switch, Yui's soul anchored to eva-01 instead and Lilith's soul got anchored to Yui(Rei)'s body, by finishing the experiment Yui's remained in eva-01 and Lilith's soul got split between Rei and Lilith's body, since eva-01 already had Yui's anchored to it there was no space for Lilith there...

Eva-00: assuming the soul remains within the body, they did their patented CE procedure with Rei 1's corpse and the soulless eva-00, since Rei 1 was dead the only thing her soul could anchor to was eva-00 and remained there.

Rei 2: maybe a CE between Lilith and the next Rei body from the tank?

Rei 3: gets tricky...
let's say that Rei 1's soul in eva-00 goes back to Lilith on her own,
now let's assume that the reason they needed Rei 2 remains was to recover her soul, so they do a CE with Rei 2's corpse and Lilith, all 3 pieces of Lilith's soul (Rei 1, Rei 2 and unnamed Lilith piece) reunite within Lilith's body,
and finally they perform another CE between Lilith's and the 3rd Rei from the tank.

Notice I'm using as ground rules that:
1) CEs are the mechanism to split/join souls
2) souls in eva/angels bodies are released and go back to a "magnetized" living body or failing that return to their respective chamber of guf
3) souls in lilin stay within the body
4) CEs can only be performed between evas/angels/SoLs and lilin bodies, not between 2 lilin nor 2 "giants"

What do you guys think?

Bagheera
Asuka's Bulldog
Asuka's Bulldog
User avatar
Posts: 18679
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:35 am

View Original PostK40s wrote:As I said I've been theorizing a mechanism where the souls move on their own instead of being moved by Nerv...


Evidence in the show seems to suggest that isn't happening. Souls appear to be bound to their bodies, and they don't seem to leave when a person dies. Also, note that Lilith's Chamber of Guf was empty when Seele/Gehirn/whoever found her -- the resident soul was all that was left.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

K40s
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Age: 40
Posts: 354
Joined: Jan 12, 2013
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby K40s » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:59 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Evidence in the show seems to suggest that isn't happening. Souls appear to be bound to their bodies, and they don't seem to leave when a person dies. Also, note that Lilith's Chamber of Guf was empty when Seele/Gehirn/whoever found her -- the resident soul was all that was left.
what I meant was that the souls are not specifically split or merged back by nerv/seele instead that it just happened as an unexpected consequence of the CEs and the magnetic anchoring mechanics I was theorizing. Nerv/seele just realized what happened and used the CEs to exploit this mechanics but they couldn't really influence things specifically.

I've beem wondering what did they mean about the chamber of guf being empty when creating Rei, and why was it important enough to be mentioned anyway? was it only to imply that Rei's soul was the one from Lilith and not a random one from the chamber? maybe it's mentioned because it implies that when a Lilin dies the soul doesn't return to the chamber, what happens then? does it reincarnates in another newborn lilin? where does the souls from all the newborn children come from? do souls simply reproduce the same as bodies?

I mean there's the implication that there was a limited number of souls inside the chamber, the SoL releases them and incarnates them in their children, then what? angels don't seem to be able to reproduce nor have the need to, having the seed of life and all, but the lilin do reproduce so either souls reproduce too or souls get recycled and lilin can only reproduce up to a certain number, maybe that's the whole thing about lilin having achieved the highest point in their evolution.

The other notion could be some mechanism of soul recycling, the lilin that die get their souls reused in the newborns and there's a maximum number of lilin that can be alive at the same time since there's a limited number of souls. The problem with this notion is that for example Rei 1 to 14 were born after 2nd Impact, and 2I killed half the population on earth, and Ritz said that Rei couldn't have a soul because the chamber was empty... so lilin souls are just left in limbo or get stuck to the bodies for eternity? that would explain the need to get Rei 2's remains, and the contact experiments to give souls to the evas.

thewayneiac
Committeeperson
Committeeperson
User avatar
Posts: 1633
Joined: Aug 26, 2004
Location: How Kaworu got to the Moon

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby thewayneiac » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:47 pm

View Original PostK40s wrote:
I've been wondering what did they mean about the chamber of Guf being empty when creating Rei, and why was it important enough to be mentioned anyway?


She seems to be saying that they originally had planned to use unborn souls from the Guf in the Evas, and would have used them in the Reis as well, but the cupboard was bare. Thus they were forced to use salvaged souls instead. Perhaps they thought a fresh soul that had never developed any familial relationships could synch with anyone.
Rejoice, glory is ours. Our young men have not died in vain. Their graves need no flowers. The tapes have recorded their names.
I am all there is.
Negative! Primative! Limited! I let you live.
But I gave you life.
What else could you do?
To do what was right.
I'm perfect, are you?

Squigsquasher
Banned
Age: 27
Posts: 3671
Joined: Feb 09, 2013
Location: The bonus 10th level of hell
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Squigsquasher » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:13 pm

Moreorless what Bagheera said. Here's my interpretation of it:

Rei 1, 2 and 3 all have the same soul and the same mind. However, it has been fractured into 3 different fragments.

Basically:

Rei 1 and Rei 2 are created around the same time. Rei 2 is given the portion of Lilith's soul that is complient and obedient, just what Gendo needs from a pilot. He keeps the remainder in Rei 1, as he thinks that as Unit 00's soul will be dominated by Rei 2 all the time anyway, Unit 00 is an ideal dumping ground for the unwanted soul fragment. However, the fragment of Lilith's soul in Rei 1, being the leftover from the idealized soul of Rei 2, is bitter, twisted, defiant and cruel. In addition to simply being the less desirable elements of Lilith's soul, it is incredibly angry that it has been separated from the rest of itself (Rei 2). As a result, Rei 1/Unit 00 is extremely unstable and sadistic.

Rei 1 tries to turn Naoko against Gendo with the "You old hag" scene, but this backfires and gets her killed. Gendo then has to quickly upload her soul to Unit 00 before it returns to Lilith, but as a result of the already resentful soul fragment being uploaded when her last experience was of being brutally murdered, combined with the hasty upload, Rei 1/Unit 00 has gone from merely being sadistic to being outright insane. When she detects Rei 2, and the remainder of itself in close proximity (Unit 00's entry plug) she goes completely berserk, roaring like an animal at her hellishly unnatural existence, trying to kill the ones who did this to her. She also tries to kill Rei 2 to release the remainder of her soul and be complete once more.

Eventually Unit 00 becomes comfortable with Rei 2 being inside her, and gets used to it. When the cross-compatibility test starts however, and she detects an unknown soul inside her, she once again becomes murderous, trying to kill everything around her.

Rei 2, as mentioned before, has all the aspects of Lilith's soul that Gendo desires. Eventually, she comes to love Shinji, and sacrifices herself to stop Amrisael and save Shinji. When Rei 3 wakes up, she is still technically the same Rei, and does still have her memories of Shinji. However, Unit 00's soul has been finally reunited with Rei 2's soul, and her memories are a little fuzzy due to being preoccupied with her new-found sense of completeness. She also remembers Rei 1/Unit 00's horrible memories and almost instantly realizes what is happening, and her love for Gendo evapourates in a moment. Rei 2's rationality, combined with Rei 1's trauma, cause the now complete Rei/Lilith to betray Gendo in EoE, and in 3rd impact, Yui Ikari, who has been watching over Gendo in Unit 01, and Lilith/Rei, who has the aforementioned bones to pick, both have a common goal, protecting Shinji and punishing Gendo "team up" if you like, allowing them both to enact revenge on Gendo (Lilith lends her power to let Yui appear as the demonic Unit 01 and utterly destroy Gendo permanently). However, the complete Rei/Lilith still has her memories of and love for Shinji, and as such lets him decide how 3rd Impact should go. When he decides that he wants it to stop, she allows it to, as Shinji is the one person she truly loves, and has decided at this point she would rather let him be happy than fulfill Instrumentality. Rei/Lilith then falls apart and her soul either joins humanity or dissipates, finally granting her the oblivion and peace that, after having her body mutilated and her soul fractured, she has desired for so long.

So, yeah, Shinji Ikari became the one true love of the creator goddess. That deserves some recognition.
Here lies Squigsquasher.
2013-2017.

Elect G-Max
Tunniel
Tunniel
User avatar
Age: 44
Posts: 198
Joined: Mar 01, 2013

Re: Rei I, II, and III The same person or different people?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Elect G-Max » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:53 pm

There is no "Rei I", "Rei II" or "Rei III". There is only Ayanami Rei and a bunch of soulless clones in the basement. She only dies once - in EoE.

View Original Posthoutaru wrote:I examined the scene where Gendo dies, and the 3 Rei's line up. They obviously are different people there. One is a child (Rei I), one picks up the glasses (Rei II), and one is naked (Rei III).


Do you want to know what's funny? People like to use this shot as "proof" that Rei has twice died and had her soul and memories transferred to a new body... however, even if that had happened, it wouldn't explain the shot at all.
"Whatever the story or the development of the characters, I made them without a plan... We only started working on the next script once the previous one was done." - Anno, 1996

"Sometimes, putting your toothbrush in its holder upside down can express your feelings towards life in general, your secret desire to commit suicide, the feelings for your long-lost mother that you never got to know, and your favorite color. But sometimes that toothbrush is simply a toothbrush." - Nuclear Lunchbox

Chuckman
Chuckman
Chuckman
User avatar
Age: 41
Posts: 8902
Joined: Nov 11, 2011
Location: Chuckman
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Chuckman » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:56 pm

The three Reis that appear over Gendo are the maid, matron, and crone. She is one who is three, the classical tripartite goddess.

AuraTwilight
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3334
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

Re: Rei I, II, and III The same person or different people?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:19 pm

View Original PostElect G-Max wrote:There is no "Rei I", "Rei II" or "Rei III". There is only Ayanami Rei and a bunch of soulless clones in the basement. She only dies once - in EoE.



Do you want to know what's funny? People like to use this shot as "proof" that Rei has twice died and had her soul and memories transferred to a new body... however, even if that had happened, it wouldn't explain the shot at all.


Uh...are you trolling? You have to be trolling, right? No one can be this dense.
J_Faulkner, be warned that some of your statements could be construed as ad hominem attacks. -- Priceless, eternal irony

Anno has perfected the side boob --Gendo'sPapa

Elect G-Max
Tunniel
Tunniel
User avatar
Age: 44
Posts: 198
Joined: Mar 01, 2013

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Elect G-Max » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:19 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:The three Reis that appear over Gendo are the maid, matron, and clone.


Fixed for lulz.
"Whatever the story or the development of the characters, I made them without a plan... We only started working on the next script once the previous one was done." - Anno, 1996

"Sometimes, putting your toothbrush in its holder upside down can express your feelings towards life in general, your secret desire to commit suicide, the feelings for your long-lost mother that you never got to know, and your favorite color. But sometimes that toothbrush is simply a toothbrush." - Nuclear Lunchbox

Dream
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3284
Joined: Dec 08, 2011

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Dream » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:08 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:The three Reis that appear over Gendo are the maid, matron, and crone. She is one who is three, the classical tripartite goddess.


Chuckman's way of viewing NGE is as interesting as it is unusual/strange. I say that with the best/non-offensive intentions, by the way.
"Every line is a joy" -Kaworu Nagisa.

"Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm." - Ralph Waldo Emerson.

K40s
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Age: 40
Posts: 354
Joined: Jan 12, 2013
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby K40s » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:03 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:The three Reis that appear over Gendo are the maid, matron, and crone. She is one who is three, the classical tripartite goddess.
I think you're on to something there:

Wikipedia wrote:The Triple Goddess is the subject of much of the writing of Robert Graves, and has been adopted by many neopagans (notably Wiccans) as one of their primary deities . The term triple goddess is infrequently used outside of Neopaganism to instead refer to historical goddess triads and single goddesses of three forms or aspects. In common Neopagan usage the three female figures are frequently described as the Maiden, the Mother, and the Crone, each of which symbolizes both a separate stage in the female life cycle and a phase of the moon, and often rules one of the realms of earth, underworld, and the heavens. These may or may not be perceived as aspects of a greater single divinity. The feminine part of Wicca's duotheistic theological system is sometimes portrayed as a Triple Goddess, her masculine counterpart being the Horned God.


Lilith the Triple Goddess and Adam the Horned God, also the Maiden (Virginity) Rei 1, the Mother (reminds the scene where Rei 2 is twisting the cleaning mop) Rei 2, and the Crone (Wise) Rei 3 (Rei 3 seems to be more aware of what is going on)

Baden
Embryo
Posts: 3
Joined: Jan 24, 2024
Gender: Male

Re: Rei I, II, and III The same person or different people?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Baden » Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:35 pm

I believe that Rei I, II, and III are not the same person, in this post I will mostly focus on Rei II and Rei III. So here are my reasons:
Rei II died saving Shinji and was then "reborn" as Rei III but can we really call her the same person, yes she has the same "soul", body and the implanted memories of Rei II but is she really the same person? I wouldn't say so, Rei II's consciousness or sentience did not transfer to a new body, if that happened then she would be the same person, but instead her life ended when she died with her Eva, she did not wake up in a new body, Rei III just got transferred her memories but did not experience them herself, let me try to explain this, if I had a clone and somehow my memories were transferred to his mind, and I died later that day, would my life transfer over to his body, I don't think so, I would have died and he would keep on living as a separate being, it doesn't matter that he has my memories transferred into his mind, my consciousness would die with my body.
Also when talking to Fuyutsuki in the same episode Rei II dies, Gendo calls Rei III by her name but then corrects himself and says the first child, to me this seems like he doesn't see Rei III as the same person as Rei II and so is uncomfortable calling her by the name of Rei II to whom he was somewhat attached.


Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests