The Train (Episode 19)

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The Train (Episode 19)

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Postby ShoKenju » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:50 pm

okay, the train car scenes. we all know what im talking about. but my question is what they mean. normally i would say its just Shinji's mind. but then i was rewatching episode 18 and 19 today and Toji was there listening to Shinji whine to Rei about his dad and everything. how could this be if its only Shinji's mind, is this the commonality between them all. that once you pilot an Eva you and brought into the secret "self loathe cafe"
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Postby wildarmsheero » Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:06 pm

but then i was rewatching episode 18 and 19 today and Toji was there listening to Shinji whine to Rei about his dad and everything. how could this be if its only Shinji's mind,

EM had a good explanation for this at the Otakon panel. I would try to say what he said but I'd fuck it up, so I'll leave it to him.
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Postby Timesplitter 01 » Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:22 pm

Good question ShoKenju, I would also like to know that
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Postby RubberSoul » Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:42 pm

Here's my contribution...

Well, when you're on a train like that you're surrounded by people, yet no one notices you or others on the train. You're surrounded by people, yet you feel alone. The train is kind of like the big busy world where everyone is busy worrying about their own problems. Shinji probably equates the train as a lonely place and he feels lonely himself.
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Postby Dave » Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:43 pm

It's basically just a place used for introspection. I believe most Japanese commute by train, and this leads to a lot of thinking time. And a lot of manga reading.
Last edited by Dave on Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ShoKenju » Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:44 pm

RS- i got that much, but its more the fact of all Eva pilots on the train and seeing one another. Toji would have no idea about the depths of Shinji and his father, so its impossible to have him be in the exact same place as Shinji goes when he's "gone"
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Postby houtaru » Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:12 am

I found that many animes and Japanese movies have dream sequences where two of the characters experience the same dream together. Touji saw Shinji and Rei on the train and said something like "This is weird." So he is within Shinji's dream.

The same thing happend in the Love Hina anime (Motoko dreamed and saw Keitaro's dream-girl, and later finds out Naru seemed to dream the same thing) and in that Japanese movie Battle Royale (Noriko and Kitano seem to talk within their dream). When two or more people are dreaming, it seems that they can actually meet in their dreams. This may be a Japanese literary technique. Anyone else have other examples?

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:57 pm

If you pay attention to Touji's speech, it is a bit slurred and confused. At that point, Touji is observing Shinji and Rei. It is safe to assume that Touji is drugged up to the point where he is in a somewhat half-dreaming or hallucinagenic state, observing the two within the hospital, but in another environment.

Prior to the scene, Touji looks over at Shinji, and asks himself why he is there, and then loses consciousness. Then he observes Rei and Shinji, and then wakes up to Hikari by his bed side.

Obviously this is just an ordinary scene, there is no greater meaning to the plot added by the environment, though Anno may have intended to suggest something through it. He may have wanted to be creative and change the environment to make the scene more interesting. Animators do this sometimes, such is the case with the manga scene in FLCL. That scene was just a bunch of people around a table, made interesting by doing it as a manga.

The greater question is what might the choice in environment suggest or convey?
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Postby Hexon.Arq » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:11 pm

The greater question is what might the choice in environment suggest or convey?


Maybe it was just a surreal environment, and they didn't want to spend any resources on creating another one.

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Postby ShoKenju » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:16 pm

The greater question is what might the choice in environment suggest or convey?



thats been the question from the beginning, pardon me if i didnt get it accross
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Postby Dave » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:35 pm

Dave wrote:It's basically just a place used for introspection. I believe most Japanese commute by train, and this leads to a lot of thinking time. And a lot of manga reading.


Do you not like my answer or something...?
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Postby ShoKenju » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:58 pm

Dave wrote:
Dave wrote:It's basically just a place used for introspection. I believe most Japanese commute by train, and this leads to a lot of thinking time. And a lot of manga reading.


Do you not like my answer or something...?


no, its that things like this in evangelion have a meaning. i want to know why both Toji and Shinji were on that train. then i want to know why Toji could listen to what Shinji was saying to Rei.



possibility- they were in the geofront. so maybe it was the prematerialized black egg? or something of the sort
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Postby thewayneiac » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:13 pm

What seems to be happening here is a genuine flash-forward to Instrumentallity. Perhaps the idea is that Instrumentallity is a timeless state of existance, and that once you've synched with an EVA, it's possible, under extreme circumstances, to experience it without warning.
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Postby sadsadshinji » Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:27 am

i dont think he heard anything... he was just hallucinating...or something... unless they were all in the same entry plug i doubt that there would be any group dreaming...
and as for the train...i guess it represents part of Shinji, as he always ends up taking the train to run away but never does.... so a state of limbo?

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:06 pm

sadsadshinji wrote:and as for the train...i guess it represents part of Shinji, as he always ends up taking the train to run away but never does....

That's an interesting way to look at it. If Anno was intending to convey an idea through the choice of environment, this would be the most logical. He used it at more than one instance, such as in the End of Evangelion.
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Postby sadsadshinji » Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:01 pm

er...what part of EoE?

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Postby thewayneiac » Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:31 pm

sadsadshinji wrote:i dont think he heard anything... he was just hallucinating...or something... unless they were all in the same entry plug i doubt that there would be any group dreaming...
and as for the train...i guess it represents part of Shinji, as he always ends up taking the train to run away but never does.... so a state of limbo?


But is it likely that something that is, "just an hallucination", would look exactly like the moments leading up to instrumentallity? Those scenes look alike for a reason: Touji is seeing something that hasn't happened yet.
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:58 pm

thewayneiac wrote:But is it likely that something that is, "just an hallucination", would look exactly like the moments leading up to instrumentallity? Those scenes look alike for a reason: Touji is seeing something that hasn't happened yet.

Eva, unlike previous Gainax shows, was not written out in advance. The ending changed dramatically from what it was originally sketched out to be. You're assuming that the entirety of the show was thought out in detail prior to its production. This is not the case. It changed more and more as the production drew nearer to the end. The train scene in this episode would in effect be referring to an end which had not been fully conceptualized.

As an afterthought to the series, they included another train scene in another context, though only somewhat different. This is a way of establishing continuity and similarity, as well as familiarity.
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Postby Unit.Zed » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:47 pm

Perhaps it was (environmentally) used as a simple metaphor for the characters' individual consciousnesses traveling - going on a journey, evolving - toward their destiny. Both as a consequence of their everyday experiences and their inevitable, ultimate complementation.

While it is a dream/hallucination; it is still actually happening in the context of the hospital.

On the other hand, I have regularly thought this to be a jump forward/universe warp much like the appearance of Rei in Ep1. Just depends on how I'm feeling at the time!

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Postby Guy Nacks » Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:06 pm

HOLY THREAD BUMP, BATMAN! :resurrect:

The explanation of Shinji and Rei conversing in teh hospital while Toji was dreaming is a logical real world explanation, but the implication that Toji is flashforwarding to Instrumentality makes sense also.

Instrumentality seems more and more like the Nexxus from Star Trek Generations. It's a place where time has no meaning.
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