Character Heights

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Postby Bagheera » Thu May 30, 2013 8:50 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:That was before I corrected for the high heels.


High heels? Yui? Damn. Well, if they're there they're there, but she really doesn't seem the type.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Dream » Thu May 30, 2013 8:51 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:High heels? Yui? Damn. Well, if they're there they're there, but she really doesn't seem the type.


My thoughts exactly! :lol:
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Postby Reichu » Thu May 30, 2013 9:23 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:High heels? Yui?

A-yup. (More obvious on her character line art, but damned if I know where I put that.)

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Postby Bagheera » Fri May 31, 2013 2:32 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:A-yup. (More obvious on her character line art, but damned if I know where I put that.)


Those don't look much like heels, certainly not of the three inch variety. I mean yes, they're dress shoes and they have a bit of a heel, but I'd imagine anything Gendo would be wearing would have much the same. I was thinking you meant, well, heels. Maybe the angle in that pic is throwing me off.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri May 31, 2013 7:18 am

For Rei's short height contradicting Yui's tallness, maybe it comes from the fact she's a clone, and thus an imperfect copy, and/or from her diet : most of her meals seems to be composed of alimentary pills.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Fri May 31, 2013 7:25 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:For Rei's short height contradicting Yui's tallness, maybe it comes from the fact she's a clone, and thus an imperfect copy, and/or from her diet : most of her meals seems to be composed of alimentary pills.


Yeah, Rei does seem to subsist solely on pills, whereas Yui probably had a fairly normal diet. So possibly if Rei had been brought up on something other than pills she would have eventually reached Yui's height. In ANIMA she seems taller at seventeen going by official art (although ANIMA is as far as you can wander from canon without actually being considered fanfiction).
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Postby Bagheera » Fri May 31, 2013 7:32 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:For Rei's short height contradicting Yui's tallness, maybe it comes from the fact she's a clone, and thus an imperfect copy, and/or from her diet : most of her meals seems to be composed of alimentary pills.


Fun fact: we never actually see her take pills in the show. It's heavily suggested, of course, but that's as far as it goes. Assuming she's taking them (fair for Rei II, maybe not for Rei III) we have no idea why, or even if they're beneficial.

But in any event this is not a good explanation for Rei's size since Shinji, Asuka, and all the other kids are approximately the same height. They aren't clones, and we know they eat real food (and pretty good food by the looks of it).
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby pwhodges » Fri May 31, 2013 8:15 am

We know that Rei eats real (vegetarian) food, for that matter.
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Postby ElMariachi » Fri May 31, 2013 8:17 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:But in any event this is not a good explanation for Rei's size since Shinji, Asuka, and all the other kids are approximately the same height. They aren't clones, and we know they eat real food (and pretty good food by the looks of it).

Well, maybe she was supposed to be much taller, but because of her diet/fact she's a clone she's shorter that her original(Yui) and ends up at a similar height than the other pilots?(this is pure fanwankery)

pwhodges wrote:We know that Rei eats real (vegetarian) food, for that matter.

Not exactly : she said that she don't eat meat.
And in NME looking at her reaction when Shinji gives her food and the alimentary pills when she had lunch with Gendo, it's pretty clearly that she almost never eat real food.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Bagheera » Fri May 31, 2013 8:46 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Well, maybe she was supposed to be much taller, but because of her diet/fact she's a clone she's shorter that her original(Yui) and ends up at a similar height than the other pilots?(this is pure fanwankery)


And bad fanwankery at that. How do you even begin to make the notion that her status as a clone is reason why she doesn't appear to be a proper clone in your head?

But anyway, we see her eating actual food on several occasions, so barking up this tree isn't going to get you anywhere.

And in NME


Wrong forum chief.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Fri May 31, 2013 9:12 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:And bad fanwankery at that. How do you even begin to make the notion that her status as a clone is reason why she doesn't appear to be a proper clone in your head?

But anyway, we see her eating actual food on several occasions, so barking up this tree isn't going to get you anywhere.


True. We see her eating garlic ramen which she chose herself (after the Sahaquiel battle), so she clearly has an idea of what she likes to eat.

In regards to Asuka's height, we do see Kyoko once but she was in bed and sort of hunched so i wouldn't make any guesses based on that.

As for Shinji, I suppose it is possible for a short person to be born of two tall people, due to recessive genes, different diet, and being generally more wimpy than either of his parents.
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Postby user-02 » Fri May 31, 2013 9:14 am

For the record, I don't think we have enough information within the canon to make too many hard-and-fast assumptions about the way cloning works in the NGE universe.

We know that today's cloning technology (real world) is promising, but has its limitations. Cloning of animals -- especially complex ones, like mammals -- is pretty hit or miss, with roughly a 1/10 chance of having a surrogate mother bring a cloned embryo to term. Once born, the clone is likely to suffer from genetic defects and telomere shortening. Etc. (Dolly the sheep, perhaps our most famous clone to date, was put out of her misery after suffering from lung disease resulting from genetic defects).

It's probably safe to assume that cloning in the NGE universe is a fair bit more sophisticated than today's cloning. After all, these are people who can extract and repurpose souls, not to mention construct massive clones of alien lifeforms. That being said, we might reasonably expect Rei to be a genetically flawless (or close to flawless) clone of Yui.

Even still, genes are not 100% destiny. A clone of Yui, even a perfect one, will not necessarily grow into the exact dimensions (height, weight, body type, etc.) as Yui unless raised under the exact same conditions and lifestyle as the original. Rei will have all of Yui's tendencies, and so her body's "natural inclination" (for lack of a better term) is to fill out into roughly what Yui looked like. But changes in diet and lifestyle will have an impact. Yui probably wasn't as athletically rigorous as Rei is, for example, and certainly wasn't subjected to as much LCL as Rei -- the long-term effects of which are not completely known.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri May 31, 2013 9:27 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:As for Shinji, I suppose it is possible for a short person to be born of two tall people, due to recessive genes, different diet, and being generally more wimpy than either of his parents.


That's vanishingly unlikely, given that height is a polygenic trait more strongly influenced by genetics than environment. Shinji would have to suffer serious malnutrition to have his growth affected, and even then it likely wouldn't be affected to this extent.

View Original Postuser-02 wrote:Even still, genes are not 100% destiny. A clone of Yui, even a perfect one, will not necessarily grow into the exact dimensions (height, weight, body type, etc.) as Yui unless raised under the exact same conditions and lifestyle as the original. Rei will have all of Yui's tendencies, and so her body's "natural inclination" (for lack of a better term) is to fill out into roughly what Yui looked like. But changes in diet and lifestyle will have an impact. Yui probably wasn't as athletically rigorous as Rei is, for example, and certainly wasn't subjected to as much LCL as Rei -- the long-term effects of which are not completely known.


All true, but twins studies indicate that environmental differences, even large ones, should not result in changes of this magnitude. 5-10 cm is one thing, but 26 cm? No way. It's more likely by far that Anno either fucked up the research here or employed liberal use of artistic to make the adults as imposing as possible to the kids.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby pwhodges » Fri May 31, 2013 9:40 am

Unlikely, sure, but not vanishingly so. There are enough instances of siblings with very marked differences in height to show that it is possible (and we're not talking remarkable extremes of height or shortness here, either)
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Postby user-02 » Fri May 31, 2013 9:55 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:All true, but twins studies indicate that environmental differences, even large ones, should not result in changes of this magnitude. 5-10 cm is one thing, but 26 cm? No way. It's more likely by far that Anno either fucked up the research here or employed liberal use of artistic to make the adults as imposing as possible to the kids.


I don't disagree. I think the most likely explanation is that Anno -- or at least his story editor -- messed up on continuity. But scientifically speaking, it's not completely outside the realm of possibility (albeit far more likely if we do some pseudo-scientific handwaving of the "LCL did it!" variety).

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Fri May 31, 2013 10:04 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:That's vanishingly unlikely, given that height is a polygenic trait more strongly influenced by genetics than environment. Shinji would have to suffer serious malnutrition to have his growth affected, and even then it likely wouldn't be affected to this extent.


Well, as I said, there is a chance it was a recessive gene; we do not see any of Shinji's grandparents but if Yui and Gendo were both heterozygous in terms of height genes and possessed both the alleles for being of above average height and the alleles for being short, then there is a 25% chance of them producing a child who is short, in accordance with a basic Puncett Square diagram. Shinji may just have been unlucky enough to fall within that 25%.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri May 31, 2013 10:25 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Unlikely, sure, but not vanishingly so. There are enough instances of siblings with very marked differences in height to show that it is possible (and we're not talking remarkable extremes of height or shortness here, either)


I've never heard of those sorts of differences in identical twins, and I've looked. Do you have specific studies in mind? This is certainly possible in ordinary siblings, but we've been lead to believe Rei is a clone of Yui, not a de facto sibling.

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:Well, as I said, there is a chance it was a recessive gene;


As I noted earlier that's not how height works. It's a polygenic trait.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Fri May 31, 2013 10:36 am

Well, perhaps it's because it's an anime and they didn't think the heights through beyond that the children must be shorter than the adults.

Either that or they're all just amongst those people who seem short but go through massive growth spurts later on.
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Postby Stikuru » Fri May 31, 2013 10:36 am

View Original Postuser-02 wrote:...it's not completely outside the realm of possibility...

I can't help reading that phrase in Kaji's voice whenever I see it. :lol:

Also, I think the point of the pilots being that short was to help push it into the viewers mind that they were children.
Although this fact was stated multiple times, even in their titles as pilots, the visuals in my opinion helped get the sense that they were young.
If they were taller I don't know if I would see them the same way.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Fri May 31, 2013 10:41 am

View Original PostStikuru wrote:I can't help reading that phrase in Kaji's voice whenever I see it. :lol:.


^Seconded.

For some reason the children always seem taller than they actually are (as I said, I was shocked when I saw the Eva Store mural). I guess it's a combination of the camera angles and the fact that everything they use must be appropiately sized for people of their stature.
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