Dragon Ball

[Reichu]

This isn't in the "anime recommendations" thread because I'm not recommending it or anything. I'm more curious about what people around here think of the anime (plural)/manga than anything else.

EXCESSIVELY LONG RANTING FOLLOWS.

I got around to breaking my anime fast* recently. Probably as a result of watching Kajetokun's absolutely random clip videos, I got to wondering about that mysterious "Dragonball Z" (or w/ever) show I've heard about on and off for, like, ten years. I'd seen a couple of episodes dubbed on Toonami; I was (very) peripherally acquainted with the mythos; I knew about the Archetypal DBZ Fanboy; I knew the laundry list of DBZ-Bashing Memes; and I knew of the existence of sensible people who, for some reason or another, liked the show anyway. (Some of whom said, "Watch the sub; it's a lot better.")

When I got the yen to actually watch a new anime for a change, I think I mentioned to my bro**, "You know, we should actually watch something together. Like old times." Surprisingly enough, the title that came to his mind was DBZ. (I guess he must have been looking at Interweb parodies, too.)

I'm suffering tremendously (GRRRR ROUTER GRRR BITT*****T GRRR 6 SEEDS TO 200+ LEECHERS GRR MISSING SSA FILES!!!!) in securing the show in its original Japanese glory. So far, we've watched up to episode #077 (OVER 200 TO GO LOL!), which is sort of strange, since I normally steer clear of this gratuitously long and drawn-out shit (for the very reason that it is gratuitously long and drawn-out). But, for some reason, I want to see more! ZOMG after suffering through all of these goddamned Namek episodes they're ZOMG finally fighting Freeza and he ZOMG just did his first transformation and they left it on a cliffhanger the cheap bastards and the next episode hasn't finished downloading yet!!!

Ahem. What I meant to say is...

Okay, having the show in Japanese is good. Very good. No infernally cheesy and shitty dub to deal with, just occasionally dodgy subtitles, which aren't ANYwhere near as bad. If it's in its original and unraped form, that means I can actually watch it.

One thing that we learned early on is that the common wisdom about ludicrous filler coming in many, many forms -- it's so true!!! This show seriously needs a visit to the editing room. We've learned to fill in the superfluous moments with the sort of lighthearted mockery the show rightfully deserves.

Despite the maddening nature of its filler ("GET ON WITH IT ALREADY!!!") and plot construction (have real, genuine plot happen in short bursts, normally at the very end of the episode to provide a convenient cliffhanger), I do find the show strangely likeable. It has a unique tone that I haven't really encountered anywhere else, and a ... colorful ensemble of characters. I guess one test of a show's effectiveness is when you're constantly shouting at the screen, especially during fights: "NO, DON'T DO THAT, YOU IDIOT!", "YEAH, KICK HIS ASS!", stuff of that ilk. Something that's a lot more fun when you're not watching alone.

In any event -- I hear this show will get increasingly ridiculous, but I suppose we'll see how much we can take. And then, hopefully, I can convince my bro to watch the original Dragonball with me afterwards.

A few words on the seiyuu-sama-tachi.

Despite having to play up to DBZ's numerous self-imposed cliches, the cast is quite excellent, in my opinion.

Goku being played by a woman (and rather obviously so) was a bit disconcerting at first, but eventually Masako Nozawa just faded into the part. (Except when Goku is getting the shit kicked out of him and sounds like a cat in heat.) I vaguely recall there being some specific reason behind Goku's unusual casting.

Piccolo surprised me. He*** seems to have these really dopey voices in the dubs, but in the original he, like, sounds sorta sexy. In a vaguely stereotypical "ORE WA ANGSTY BADASS DA ZE!" kind of way. (Though, being from 1989, he has an edge over the decade+ worth of angsty badasses who followed.)

I'm quite impressed with Ryo Horikawa as Vegeta(-chan), as well. Far from the snivelling satirical villainy I recall of Brian Drummond -- Horikawa instills Vegeta with plenty of menace (he positively creeped me out in some scenes), but, beyond things like laughing maniacally in the way that all bad guys are required from time to time, a lot of that is due to the ambiguity he brings to the character. Vegeta's an asshole of awesome proportions, of course, but Horikawa keeps him just "grey" enough... And I'm hooting whenever Vegeta lets his Asshole-o-meter go below 50%. (I loved the scenes with him, Kuririn, and Gohan in Freeza's spaceship.) Plus, Horikawa just has a nice voice. Kekeke.

Mayumi Tanaka is great as Kuririn (my brother keeps saying "Krillin", what a n00b LOL). Unlike Nozawa, adjusting to her didn't take much more than observing, "Hey, a chick does Kuririn's voice; they seem to have a hard-on for this, but who am I to complain." It's too bad Kuririn has been essentially relegated to "sidekick duty" so far, rather than getting more individual attention; he's a very likeable character.

And Ryusei Nakao gets lots of points as Freeza. He has this unique voice (though I don't know if that's what he normally sounds like) well-suited for Freeza's rather bizarre looks, and he skillfully conveys the raw, unadulterated, "I'm ludicrously powerful but you have to wait at least a dozen more episodes to see just a fraction of my power" creepiness. He makes good work of Freeza's personal speech patterns, as well; Freeza speaks very proper Japanese with some (by my n00by assessments, anyway) vaguely effeminate and demeaning flourishes. (A lot of "faux-gentleman" going on; and his heavy utilization of "deshou" and the ender "...ne" are things I recall more of women than men.) And don't forget the subdued "Ohoho" laugh (which I immediately associated with the stereotypical Japanese female laugh). But seriously, why do they have chicks voice this guy in the dubs? That kinda ruins the effect.

Okay, I think I'm through. Your turn.


* As in, not devouring any anime I have not seen previously.

** HE'S MY NEXT-DOOR NEIGHBOOR, PLEASE DON'T LAUGH. WE'RE BOTH LOSERS WHO STILL LIVE WITH MOM, LOLOLOLOLOL.

*** I use "he" very loosely here, of course. Whenever my pervert brother starts to spin scenarios about Piccolo being a pedophile or whatever, I'm like, "But Brian, Piccolo is technically asexual", and he's like... well, nevermind.

[EDITS: Nothing important.]

[slothen]

lol there's spaceships in that anime?

This is a very interesting and informative post. It confirms many of the parallels that I suspected between DBZ and Naruto.

And about it being more fun watching with other people? I know exactly what you mean.

[BobBQ]

Words about Drag-on Brawl Zzz

Nah; I'm not really into Pokemon.

(So your brother is named Brian. Just out of curiosity, is the fact that you and Monkey have the same surname a coincidence, or what?)

[The Bastard King]

If your interested so far, then your good to go until the end of the Cell saga. But stop after that, since anything else is purely milking the series out for the money.

Oh, and watch the movie "The World's Strongest", plzkthxbye.

[Kaysow]

Now you see what people like with Naruto. Short bursts of plot, and generally likable characters. Can't stand the bullshit narrative tho, so I'll save up and watch it again when there's 8-10 new episodes out. That way, we're bound to see at least some progress in one sitting.

EDIT: Oh yeah! There's ONE BIG DIFFERENCE between Naruto and Dragonball; The mangas. The Dragonball manga is equivalent to the Naruto anime, but those who get sick of all that can just pick up the Naruto manga, because compared to the anime, it moves ahead at lightspeed.

So:
Tedious - Dragonball manga, Dragonball anime (I guess, haven't seen it), Naruto anime
Fast - Naruto manga

[master0rolando]

Dragonball is a kid's show...the original was okay...but corny and too long...

i never had any respect for DBZ because of the incredible amount of reused animation...and it goes on forever...lots of wasted time too...it would take about an entire episode for one of the characters to power up...its also repetitive...take the Freeza fight for example...They fight...the heroes barely win...but wait Freeza wasnt using his true power...now hes too strong...then SUPER PICCOLO shows up...hes barely beats Freeza...but wait Freeza wasnt using his true power...now hes too strong...theyre getting their butts kicked...then GOHAN releases his true power...he barely beats Freeza...but wait...Freeza wasnt using his true power...now hes too strong again...Vegeta comes back with new power...but still loses...(FINALLY they all go at him at once like they should have in the first place)...theyre losing...then Goku shows up...theyre evenly matched...but Wait!!!...Freeza has only been using 1 MOTHAFUKIN % of his power...now hes too strong again...Goku barely wins with the SPIRIT BOMB...BUT WAIT!!!!!!!!...Freeza was only at 50%...he kills Krilin and Goku turns into a SUPER SAIYAN!!!...then he and Freeza fight at 100% and Goku wins...BUT WAIT!!!! the planet blows up...Goku is somewhere out in space for 50 episodes until he comes back and Freeza is barely alive, rebuilt, then killed by Trunks...

also...nearly all of the of the fights are the character's bodies with flashy lines going on and off around them...

[Kaysow]

Yeah, how long was that part again? Ten volumes?

[BrikHaus]

I kind of like DBZ, but once you finish the Freeza saga, you'll find that every "saga" afterwards is identical. They find a "more powerful than I ever imagined" villain who taunts them and kicks their asses. And then, at the end, Goku pulls some magical power-up bullshit out of his ass to just barely win. And how many time does he die and come back to life, anyway? The show is eternally repetitive, but does have some kind of charm. The worst part, for me, was when they stopped measuring each other's power levels. If they had condensed it all down to maybe 100 episodes (instead of what, 275?) it could have been a lot better. Funimation (the current U.S. distributor) has actually created a redub of the original Pioneer dub, which, from what I've seen (only a few episodes) is quite an improvement.

[Defectron]

you'll find that every "saga" afterwards is identical. They find a "more powerful than I ever imagined" villain who taunts them and kicks their asses

Awhile back I made a couple DBZ rules

1 No matter how rediculously overpowered you are, there's always someone else out there literally 1000 times more powerful then you are.

2. If your bad and get beaten in a fight you either turn good or you come back several times stronger only to get easily beaten.(this doesn't applie to the movies)

3. All DBZ characters look constipated no matter what emotion their experiencing, but especially when their angry

4. If everyone dies its ok because it'll all get fixed with MAGIC!

5. The more powerful everyone gets the more stupid everyone gets(you'll see what I mean in the cell and buu sagas)

The show would've been able to keep some dignity if they had ended it with the freeza saga like toryama originally planned, but it just kept on going and going! During the cell saga at the begining it seems they actually tried to put a decent plot in here but it just sort of degenerated once cell began to evolve into his other forms. And don't get me started on the buu saga! Don't get me wrong fat buu was funny at times, but that was the only thing it had going for it. Some of the dumbest things I've seen in anime happened in the buu saga like fighting candy for example.

[Reichu]

lol there's spaceships in that anime?

Yeah, cuz of all the aliens and stuff.

This is a very interesting and informative post. It confirms many of the parallels that I suspected between DBZ and Naruto.

I hear Masashi Kishimoto is an Akira Toriyama fanboy. Maybe that has something to do with it.

Nah; I'm not really into Pokemon.

Not into fluffy, drawn-out kid's shows comprised of fighting-filler-fighting-fighting-filler-filler-filler-fighting-etc. with a hefty helping of goofy hi-jinx, or what?

Incidentally, I have a soft spot for "Pokemon", as well. But I bet you already knew that.

If your interested so far, then your good to go until the end of the Cell saga.

w00t w00t

But stop after that, since anything else is purely milking the series out for the money.

No Boo 4U? At least Toriyama stopped the manga after him. I've heard to at least avoid GT at all costs, which I intend to do.

Oh, and watch the movie "The World's Strongest", plzkthxbye.

We're holding off on the movies for now to focus on the series' continuity (such as it is).... Do I really want to know?

Now you see what people like with Naruto. Short bursts of plot, and generally likable characters.

It must be a "shounen fighting anime" thing?

Can't stand the bullshit narrative tho,

"Bullshit narrative"?

so I'll save up and watch it again when there's 8-10 new episodes out. That way, we're bound to see at least some progress in one sitting.

Lollerskates. For reasons like this, I think I'll just refuse to watch Naruto -- at least, until it FINALLY FUCKING ENDS.

The Dragonball manga is equivalent to the Naruto anime

The Dragonball manga has dozens and dozens of issues of pointless filler?

Dragonball is a kid's show...

Quite so. But I'm just a big kid anyway.

the original was okay...but corny and too long...

By "original", what are you referring to?

i never had any respect for DBZ because of the incredible amount of reused animation...

Reused animation is an omnipresent tactic of the industry. It's everywhere. EVER-Y-WHERE.

And even if blatant utilization of recycled material is avoided, there are all sorts of other cheap-o tricks that can be used to reduce production costs (or, alternatively, work within the constraints of a crapola budget). I get the impression that a lot of anime these days hides inherently bad and/or limited animation behind sparkly, "high-tech" aesthetics and hope that nobody notices.

and it goes on forever... <snip>

Yeah, that kind of sums it up. LOL. But for whatever reason, it doesn't bother me enough to stop watching. (Yet.)

also...nearly all of the of the fights are the character's bodies with flashy lines going on and off around them...

I vaguely recall there being slightly more animation involved than that. Or are they just blinding me with the POWER OF IMPLIED ACTION?!?!

Looking forward to sitting through the thirty or however many fucking episodes it takes for Freeza to go down. Mindless fighting and posing and spitting out endless streams of cliched Japanese expletives are always fun. And I get to hoot at Piccolo and Vegeta until they get the shit kicked out of them or whatever.

So your brother is named Brian.

THAT IS CORRECT. Except I almost never call him that. He is more properly known as "Blah".

Just out of curiosity, is the fact that you and Monkey have the same surname a coincidence, or what?

Considering how many Clarks there are out there and how the surname is inherently polyphyletic, I would say "probability of common ancestor with surname 'Clark' low", unless we got our DNA compared for shits and giggles and it yielded something interesting. (Alternatively, if someone is named "Zachmann", I can be pretty certain that I am related to them.) But anyway.

[Opteron-O3]

You got me interested into DBZ again. I was watching it on CN when they were airing it, but the fact that they would start over after x amount of episodes... I just got tired of it.

I think I'll go buy the entire series this weekend.

[Reichu]

I think I'll go buy the entire series this weekend.

I don't think a single ideal release of the entire show exists, unfortunately. Which is kind of lame.

So is the situation with the manga, from what I understand.

The show is eternally repetitive, but does have some kind of charm.

Don't you just hate that? ;)

The worst part, for me, was when they stopped measuring each other's power levels.

Yeah, that is a shame. The amount of time it would have taken to recite the numbers would have been a boon to the anime production team.

If they had condensed it all down to maybe 100 episodes (instead of what, 275?) it could have been a lot better.

:checks torrent: 291.

Putting together an effective abridged version would be an awesome project for the aspiring editor (who also happened to be a DBZ fan all-too-aware of the show's many flaws). But doing something that like would probably require Toei's cooperation.

Funimation (the current U.S. distributor) has actually created a redub of the original Pioneer dub, which, from what I've seen (only a few episodes) is quite an improvement.

Considering how laughably bad the original was, I interpret "quite an improvement" as "standard dub mediocrity". The few clips I saw sounded awfully dopey; I might listen to a couple of episodes if I need noise in the background (got some dual-audio OGMs lying around), but there's a 99% chance I'll be shaking my head and rolling my eyes throughout.

The original cast has to put up with a lot of really bad dialogue and gawking, yelling, etc., but they all do it so well. (Well, mostly. <Insert Goku's cat screeches.>) And I wouldn't give up Toshio Furukawa and Ryo Horikawa for anything. Kekekeke.

No matter how rediculously overpowered you are, there's always someone else out there literally 1000 times more powerful then you are.

It's kind of like an allegory for Real Life.

If your bad and get beaten in a fight you either turn good or you come back several times stronger only to get easily beaten.(this doesn't applie to the movies)

The "bad guys turning good" trope is fairly common.

All DBZ characters look constipated no matter what emotion their experiencing, but especially when their angry

I only think they look constipated when they're doing their "power up" bullshit. (No pun intended.)

If everyone dies its ok because it'll all get fixed with MAGIC!

YAH BUT THE DRAGONBALLS CAN ONLY RESTORE SOMEBODY ONCE SO IF THEY DIE TWICE THEY STAY DEAD. RIGHT? RIGHT?!?!?

Yeah. Right.

The show would've been able to keep some dignity if they had ended it with the freeza saga like toryama originally planned

Is that how he envisioned it? Can I read about that anywhere?

[Defectron]

Quote:
All DBZ characters look constipated no matter what emotion their experiencing, but especially when their angry

I only think they look constipated when they're doing their "power up" bullshit. (No pun intended.)

Now that I think about it, that statement wasn't 100% accurate, they look constipated when angry, when scared its like they have diareah and are trying to hold it in (especially kuririn) and like they just succesfully went to the bathroom when they get really happy. for some reason I just associate the facial expressions of dbz characters with something that has to do with going to the bathroom.

Quote:
If everyone dies its ok because it'll all get fixed with MAGIC!

YAH BUT THE DRAGONBALLS CAN ONLY RESTORE SOMEBODY ONCE SO IF THEY DIE TWICE THEY STAY DEAD. RIGHT? RIGHT?!?!?

Yeah. Right.

Yeah you'd think so wouldn't you?

Is that how he envisioned it? Can I read about that anywhere?

I read this on some dbz site a couple years ago, it may have been dbz uncensored or planet namek, I'm not sure which. DBZ uncensored is gone, but planet namek might still be around (not sure if it is, its been awhile since I've gone there) Both were known to be pretty good sources of info for the dragonabll universe so that statement should be accurate.

[Mr. Tines]

The "bad guys turning good" trope is fairly common.

A testament to the power of friendship (through superior firepower). See also:


"What does the scanner say about her power level?"
"It's over one million."

[Zkh]

After you watch DBZ, go back and watch Dragon Ball, It's a lot better, and ignore GT completely, I was a dbz fanboy (like every other kid in elementary school) A while back.
I've been reading Toriyama's other manga, Dr. slump quite a bit as well.

[master0rolando]

By "original", what are you referring to?

The original Dragonball series...it was about Goku...a little ninja boy and his friends Karate expert Krilin, Bulma the teenage chick, and Master Roshi the wise karate fool

(there was pig too but i forget his name...also theres the episode where he agrees to marry ChiChi without actually knowing what marriage is...)

...the point of the show was that one day a girl with all sorts of cool gadgets named Bulma meets a wild powerful little boy who was strong to break boulders with his bare hands...(that was a big deal back then)...they team up and go in search for the mystical Dragonballs which are said by legend to grant one wish to whomever can gain all seven...a magical Kung-Fu quest...no aliens...no power levels...and one person dies ONCE and comes back to life ONCE (i think it Krilin)...and no 30 episode fights...no 3 episode constipated power ups...no planets exploding...no stupids...just Kung-Fu and a flying cloud...

Reused animation is an omnipresent tactic of the industry. It's everywhere. EVER-Y-WHERE.

Trust me...you dont even know what recycled means until youve sat through this show...

I vaguely recall there being slightly more animation involved than that. Or are they just blinding me with the POWER OF IMPLIED ACTION?!?!

Implied action = bad animators...

As both an anime geek and wannabe artist, I believe that implied action is one the stupidest concepts in existence and tears away any and all merit of any fights scene...


i think i remember reading somewhere that the creator didnt even want to make DragonBall Z or GT and wanted to start on other ideas... but they MADE him because of the commercial value...not sure if thats true...but its what all of my anime friends tell me...

[Defectron]

i think i remember reading somewhere that the creator didnt even want to make DragonBall Z or GT and wanted to start on other ideas... but they MADE him because of the commercial value...not sure if thats true...but its what all of my anime friends tell me...

More specifically he wanted to stop after the freeza saga

[Millions Livio]

It fits into the same boat as Pokemon, or Naruto; an annoying kids show that some people confuse for real anime. It's rather annoying when I try to get people to understand that I watch "mature" anime and they think I am speaking of Dragon-Ball-Fucking-Z. Normally showing them clips of Hellsing, Evangelion, Bebop or the like usually get the message across, but when those are not available it is rather hard.

[Reichu]

It fits into the same boat as Pokemon, or Naruto; an annoying kids show that some people confuse for real anime.

Do I smell an air of elitism there? All of these shows are "anime". (You want "anime" that isn't "real", look for imitative productions made by non-Japanese.) And, in Japan, they're all things that only (A) children and/or (B) otaku watch. ("Otaku" being "not the way gaijin use the term".)

It's rather annoying when I try to get people to understand that I watch "mature" anime and they think I am speaking of Dragon-Ball-Fucking-Z.

At least they don't think you're talking about hentai. You shouldn't let DBZ's reputation in the US affect you too much. If people give you flack, just tell them that Japanese animation encompasses all genres and has shows aimed at 'older audiences'. If they still give you flack, then you probably just need to waterproof your feathers and go into "duck mode".

Personally, I have no qualms with watching stuff below my "age level". It's all the same to me.

Normally showing them clips of Hellsing

That's not the first choice that comes to my mind...

[Szmitten]

Implied action = bad animators...

As both an anime geek and wannabe artist, I believe that implied action is one the stupidest concepts in existence and tears away any and all merit of any fights scene...

You're saying this...on and EVANGELION FORUM?!

It shows initiative and saves money. Get over it.