Evangelion: Pretentiously deep?

[Trigger's Elysium]

The most common criticism for Evangelion that i've observed is that it tries to give off an image of depth with it's imagery and really has nothing underneath. It's "not deep", or "pretentious". What is depth, to you? Would you define Evangelion as a "deep" show, or does that mean something completely different to you? Discuss.

[Sailor Star Dust]

I personally see it as being "deep" in the main themes we get towards the end: learning to love yourself so you can learn others, having hope with life, life is what it is, and so on, but that's just me. *shrugs*

[Szmitten]

I personally think it's pseudo-intellectual. I'd say that a fair portion of the show is "take this idea and then loosely connect it to this, this and this", hence the seemingly impossible "mysteries"/plotholes.

[BrikHaus]

I'd say it certainly tries to be deep, and whether or not it succeeds is up to the viewer. I mean, really, how deep/serious can a show be when it's about giant robots, anyway? That kind of thing is necessary to make it appealing to a broad audience. The biggest problem is that it had a few mysteries to unravel, the fans picked up on that, and then went hog wild, assuming that everything had some sort of deeper significance.

[Reichu]

The most common criticism for Evangelion that i've observed is that it tries to give off an image of depth with it's imagery and really has nothing underneath.

I couldn't really tell you if a work was "deep" or not, since I am rather particular about what I actually find interesting. The central issues and themes of NGE pertain to various aspects of human existence. NGE uses the elements that comprise its identity as NGE -- as opposed to some other work of fiction -- to relate the various ideas on its "agenda".

The work operates on various interwoven levels. The overarching "drama" of the characters and their struggles. The "vehicle" of the plot as a train track that takes one through that drama. The labyrinth of the narrative as a whole and the many nooks and crannies it offers up for exploration. The fine details of the fictional universe. The generic themes and ideas that can be extracted. Etc.

Is the imagery and such NGE uses "shallow" and "pretentious"? Well, Anno himself has admitted that they were being pedantic, but that doesn't mean we can't, or shouldn't, analyze the various elements within the context of the show and how they are being used.

For example, is the religious nonsense pedantic? Yes. Does it give context to the narrative? Yes. Is it a part of what makes NGE what it is? Yes. (It is called "Neon Genesis Evangelion", after all.) How meaningless is it? Well, I would think "intensely meaningless" if you looking at the show from certain vantage points. Does a cult of old geezers with a hard-on for Judaeo-Christian naming schemes and crucifictions have any direct bearing on Shinji finding a sense of identity and purpose that is all his own? Not at all. Does it help establish a setting for the "journeys" that Shinji and the other characters take? You bet.

Once one has eaten the layers that are on the top, for all to see, some opt to keep on eating -- they're not satisfied, they haven't had their fill, they're not willing to up and move on. They're going to shag the show ROTTEN, baby. Here's where we run into the oft-criticized geeks/overanalysists/fanwankers/etc. Oh, what a sorry lot they are! Let us not speak of them ever again.

I wonder how NGE could have been pedantic as hell while skirting the stigmas of "pseudo-intellectualism" and "pretentiousness".

[The Eva Monkey]

I think it would be fair to say that Eva is a bit pretentious. And that some of its fans make it out to be deeper than it is. I don't think Anno was consciously being pretentious, I just think he was being experimental, and it comes out pretentious. But for those that think Eva has no substance beneath its "facade", they can piss off and watch Naruto for all I care.

[drinian]

Eva's definitely pretentious, somewhat intentionally so.

But, by comparison, look at a series like RahXephon. In one of its Japanese promotional trailers, they called it "the first high-density science fiction anime of the 21st century." Underneath the confusing surface, though, there was very little structure.

Eva, on the other hand, is constructed in a way that produces a number of genuine emotional responses in the viewer. Ultimately, it communicates its message through more than just the script, and that can make it deep.

[Mr. Tines]

NGE provides an unusually accessible and sympathetic rendering of the characters. It is also densely textured in its narrative style -- a lot of the story is told by implication (obvious things like the way in which we find out that all the named children have no mother).

Once someone has latched onto the characters, and has spotted the first layer of implicit narrative, digging deeper seems a sensible thing to do. And in the way of things, the way in which the finds come after more and more work becomes somewhat addictive.

I haven't seen anything else that has enough density of structure that it can sustain that sort of effort. And the admitted pedantry that went into the production clearly had some effect on that.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Firstly, I want to whole-heartedly "thumbs-up" Reichu's and Mr. Tines's post. I'm going to re-iterate much of what they said; but they very eloquently touched on much of what makes NGE have real depth opposed to false/pretentious depth. I'm going to elaborate on some of that.

I posted this in another thread and I really want people to think about this:

Pretentiousness is a word I hate when it comes to art, because it's SO subjective. I've often wondered if a work of art itself can even be pretentious. Perhaps an artist himself can, if he's wanting recognition for what he's done as being important, but can the work itself be pretentious?

IMO, I think the answer is 'no'. Art only becomes pretentious if the piece just screams that the artist was doing everything just to receive attention on the level of "hey! look how important and deep I am!". I certainly don't think Anno was going for that with NGE, as it has real depth and complexity which came out of his own personal troubles.

Also, I want to define pretentious:

1. full of pretense or pretension.
2. characterized by assumption of dignity or importance.
3. making an exaggerated outward show; ostentatious.

1. Claiming or demanding a position of distinction or merit, especially when unjustified.
2. Making or marked by an extravagant outward show; ostentatious. See Synonyms at showy.

Ok, is NGE REALLY any of these things? Ask yourself: Is NGE - and Anno by extention since he largely created it - really trying to make a work that unjustifiably is asking for a larger amount of distinction or merit than it deserves?

If you're looking for ocean deep philosophical meaning, then you're the baka one turning to almost any art-form. I can think of only a few that offer any real philosphical depth. But most shows/films that work on a philosophical level HAVE to take the rather shallow route as viewers become disinterested when you start getting into textbook level philosophical dissertations. And as a storyteller it's also important to get to the heart of any philosphical leanings in the show for two reasons: So the viewer can understand the most important aspects of what's being said and that the show itself isn't crushed under its own weight.

NGE and Anno did something extremely smart, and that was create an allegorical series. Almost everything in NGE is representative of something else. The Evas themselves represent motherhood, one's sense of responsibilty, and one's sense of finding self-worth through that responsibility. Instead of pounding these ideas into us throughout the series, Anno lets the story do the work for us. It's only through the story that these meanings become evident, and its up to the viewer to discover them.

Beyond the philosophical leanings told mostly through allegorical means, we have the human drama and psychology of the show. Does Anno hammer this into our head either? No. Its the relationship between the characters that lets this part unfold. Often, a look on a character's face, or a moment that's unseen or unspoken, or a seemingly simple line of dialogue is more important and relevent to what's happening than all the obvious stuff in between.

Once again, it's left up to the viewer to carefully watch the relationships and how these dynamic characters react to what's going on. Minus a few abstract, psychological parts during the series and 25/26, we really don't get to know the characters any other way other than how they act in regards to each other and the events that are unfolding. And even through this alone we get to know them extremely well.



To sum this up, as it's already getting quite long, NGE is NOT pretentiously deep: it's actually deep on most every level. It's NOT trying to teach a philosophy or psychology course, it's trying to make you think about questions the creater himself was pondering during his depression. THAT'S real artistic depth by any standard. And the means by which the series goes about this is beyond brilliant. The reason is simply because of the plethora of levels the show works on, and how deep those levels actually DO go.

I'll leave you with this to summarize: If NGE was 'pretentiously deep', then why are we all still hear, some 12 years after it ended, discussing it? Works of fallacious (a better term) depth don't warrant that.

[THE Hal E. Burton 9000]

Yeah, what Reichu, EM and Tines said...

[Eva Yojimbo]

I wonder how NGE could have been pedantic as hell while skirting the stigmas of "pseudo-intellectualism" and "pretentiousness".

Wanted to touch on this little bit:

There's no way. At all. Any work of art that tried to do anything other than tell a nice story, paint a pretty picture, make a nice bunch of harmonious sounds, etc. cannot skirt the stigmas and accusations of it being "pseudo-intellectual" and "pretentious."

"pseudo-intellectual" (PI I'll say) is actually a much better criticsims to level against NGE than pretentious. I find very little pretention in NGE, but I've already discussed my distaste for that term to describe art anyway. But PI is much more interesting. How intellectual is NGE trying to be, and how close does it come to getting there?

THAT is an impossible question to answer really. I've already talked about how you can't (intelligently) turn to art for true philosophical/psychological depth. So to accuse a TV show for being PI when it might not've ever been trying to be truly "intellectual" in the first place is pointless. How are we to determine how much of the intellectual aspects of the story are just there to get a simple point/thought across (NOT truly intellectual), and how many are there trying to express something deeper than what it does (pseudo intellectual)?

[Sailor Star Dust]

@ Tines, Reichu and Eva Yojimbo: "Omedetou!"

I really like everything you had to say. And its so true that the struggles of Shinji and the others are what makes the show. Pointless Religious Symbolism may help push the story forward, but in the end, the Reason of Why One Is Allowed To Be Here, showing how people are able to get through depression and the like with some psychological points sprinkled throughout, is what makes the show "deep", IMHO.

And I think I was going to add more, but I'm afraid anything else would just be restating what was already said. ^^;

[Opteron-O3]

Props to Eva Yojimbo and Reichu, Tines, and everyone else

The whole Eva being related with religious, psychoogical factors is what really got me into it, it affected me and learned a few things.

[Szmitten]

Oh, I don't get an "Omedetou" just because I'm not directly praising it. >_>

[slothen]

I thought EoTV was a bit pseudo intellectual because the last two episodes seemed completely disorganized. They should have followed some kind of rational process that ended in congratulations, instead, until 5 minutes before the end, it seemed that Shinji hadn't made any progress.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Since the last few posts brought up the religious symbolism throughout NGE, I want to highlight this point in Reichu's post that I think covers that topic to perfection:

Is the religious nonsense pedantic? Yes. Does it give context to the narrative? Yes. Is it a part of what makes NGE what it is? Yes. (It is called "Neon Genesis Evangelion", after all.) How meaningless is it? Well, I would think "intensely meaningless" if you looking at the show from certain vantage points. Does a cult of old geezers with a hard-on for Judaeo-Christian naming schemes and crucifictions have any direct bearing on Shinji finding a sense of identity and purpose that is all his own? Not at all. Does it help establish a setting for the "journeys" that Shinji and the other characters take? You bet.

Also, if you think about it from an agnostic standpoint, Religion is, in very many ways, philosophical beliefs that are turned into a way of life among a group of people. Most religions have beliefs that come from stories (whether true or fiction is up to you) that tell simple morality and philosophical tales that make up their "truth".

For example: "The fruit of life/knowledge" part in NGE can be linked to the morality tale in the Bible about man being unsatisfied with being man. About our desire to be more than what we are, and reach what our own idea of perfection is (God). The fruit story is a moral and philosphical story about how man couldn't be satisfied being man - even with everlasting life and a paradise to live in. And our desire to create is nothing more than our petty attempt to reach that level of perfection.

Does THAT relate to NGE? You bet too.

I thought EoTV was a bit pseudo intellectual because the last two episodes seemed completely disorganized. They should have followed some kind of rational process that ended in congratulations, instead, until 5 minutes before the end, it seemed that Shinji hadn't made any progress.

This I might could give you about NGE. I think EoTV was a bit too much too soon because, before then, all of the psychological aspects of NGE had been kept in the background in the narrative compared to the main story.

The illogical nature of it can come from the "lolInstrumentality" reasoning, but overall I did and still do feel EoTV was a bit rushed (in every sense). If EoE had come out first, and then EoTV came out second with the "This, Ladies and Gentlemen, is Instrumentality" disclaimer attached, I don't think it would've seemed nearly as screwy.

This is NOT to say I dislike EoTV. I still think there's a lot of great stuff to be found there, but I thought they tried to cover too much too quick and resolve everything too soon.

[Opteron-O3]

Since the last few posts brought up the religious symbolism throughout NGE, I want to highlight this point in Reichu's post that I think covers that topic to perfection:

Is the religious nonsense pedantic? Yes. Does it give context to the narrative? Yes. Is it a part of what makes NGE what it is? Yes. (It is called "Neon Genesis Evangelion", after all.) How meaningless is it? Well, I would think "intensely meaningless" if you looking at the show from certain vantage points. Does a cult of old geezers with a hard-on for Judaeo-Christian naming schemes and crucifictions have any direct bearing on Shinji finding a sense of identity and purpose that is all his own? Not at all. Does it help establish a setting for the "journeys" that Shinji and the other characters take? You bet.

Also, if you think about it from an agnostic standpoint, Religion is, in very many ways, philosophical beliefs that are turned into a way of life among a group of people. Most religions have beliefs that come from stories (whether true or fiction is up to you) that tell simple morality and philosophical tales that make up their "truth".

For example: "The fruit of life/knowledge" part in NGE can be linked to the morality tale in the Bible about man being unsatisfied with being man. About our desire to be more than what we are, and reach what our own idea of perfection is (God). The fruit story is a moral and philosphical story about how man couldn't be satisfied being man - even with everlasting life and a paradise to live in. And our desire to create is nothing more than our petty attempt to reach that level of perfection.

Does THAT relate to NGE? You bet too.

Bravo!

That's what actually got me hooked to watching NGE, the story line was unique compared to others I've seen.

Well for it to actually make me cry more than 5 times tells you something... but that's just me.

[Kaysow]

I liked Evangelion. It was entertaining, refreshing, involving, and made sense to me. Wether it's pretentious crap or not, it worked just fine anyway.

[Sailor Star Dust]

When I first first heard of the series years and yeas ago I steered clear from it, mostly because I didn't think I'd like a "shounen" title even though I liked "mecha" shows Voltron and Robotech as well as kinda liking DBZ, too.

When I finally DID get into the show (or at least hearing about it before I started really watching it), what drew me in was the character interactions (part of the reason I like Sailormoon) as well as the psychological aspects, THAT really made me want to get into because I always found stuff like that fascinating.

Hence, when I finally got around to EoTV and EoE, I fell in love with the ending(s) despite my first reaction to both being "That was cool, but WTF did I just watch?" And this is even despite the fact I already somewhat knew what to expect!!

(I watched some of the episodes out of order as well as watching EoE before finishing the series, though I knew what to expect somewhat with that and EoTV because of FAQs and such. One of the first clips I saw online when finding out more about the series just before acquiring Plat. Vols.1-2 was Asuka's 22' mindrape scene raw Japanese, not realizing it was such a major spoiler since I didn't know what was being said anyway. Perhaps subconsciously that's why I like A/S?? ^^; All I know is I like the psychological part of that scene!!)


Oh and what Kaysow said.

[Opteron-O3]

When I first first heard of the series years and yeas ago I steered clear from it, mostly because I didn't think I'd like a "shounen" title even though I liked "mecha" shows Voltron and Robotech as well as kinda liking DBZ, too.

When I finally DID get into the show (or at least hearing about it before I started really watching it), what drew me in was the character interactions (part of the reason I like Sailormoon) as well as the psychological aspects, THAT really made me want to get into because I always found stuff like that fascinating.

Hence, when I finally got around to EoTV and EoE, I fell in love with the ending(s) despite my first reaction to both being "That was cool, but WTF did I just watch?" [img]http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/asuka_blink.gif [/img] And this is even despite the fact I already somewhat knew what to expect!!

(I watched some of the episodes out of order as well as watching EoE before finishing the series, though I knew what to expect somewhat with that and EoTV because of FAQs and such. One of the first clips I saw online when finding out more about the series just before acquiring Plat. Vols.1-2 was Asuka's 22' mindrape scene raw Japanese, not realizing it was such a major spoiler since I didn't know what was being said anyway. Perhaps subconsciously that's why I like A/S?? ^^; All I know is I like the psychological part of that scene!!)


Oh and what Kaysow said.

I was first introduced to episode 21(directors cut) and was like wtf? confusing yet interesting... then when I saw the whole thing I was like wtf? I need to watch it again... haha