[Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:15 pm

View Original PostRommel wrote:Anyway, if anyone want to discuss the finer points I'm open to it. Like I said, I'll probably get around to doing a revision some time soon. And yes, I know I've been talking about a Genocide-based lemon so I may get to that. I had hoped for contributions (especially from a certain Sage) but with the lack of reviews I don't think that will happen.


Genocide lemon? Fuck yeah, sign me up. If Power Plays is any indication that would be some damn fine work (all the moreso if it's also an epilogue, but it would hold even if it's set during the later chapters).
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Chuckman » Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:00 pm

View Original PostRommel wrote:Shinji was tricky in that the ending had to show rather than tell how far he had come. The last scene is an opposite of the first, when he tries to wake her up out of desperation. He doesn't need to do that anymore. He is a grown up now.


This, this, this,a thousand times this. This is the essence of show-not-tell. I love it when a fanfic author includes callbacks to events in canon in a way that comments on them through thematic variation. There were a few other things like this that I enjoyed. I really should re-read the whole thing and post a more detailed review.
the prophecy is true

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Postby xanderkh » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:40 am

I'm really sorry I took so long Rommel, but I just posted my review of your story. I wanted to read the story from start to finish before I submitted my review. :toothy:

Anyway, an epilogue would certainly be welcomed! I'd love to see all the characters lives after chapter 15. Like Bahgeera said, I'd love to see how Shinji and Asuka's relationship goes from there, as well as Rei's with both Keiko and Asuka. It would greatly be appreciated. :)
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Rommel » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:05 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Genocide lemon? Fuck yeah, sign me up. If Power Plays is any indication that would be some damn fine work (all the moreso if it's also an epilogue, but it would hold even if it's set during the later chapters).


It would be in the later chapters, when sex becomes Asuka's way of showing she's grown-up/doing grown-up things.

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Re: [Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:35 pm

Forgive me but I don't think it's actually a problem to bump a thread for a fanfic of such quality. Fantastic work, btw.

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Re: [Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby Rommel » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:15 pm

Thanks, mate.

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Re: [Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby Ikarus Onesun » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:11 pm

It's not bad. ;-)

Cheers,
IO

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Re: [Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby Rommel » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:11 pm

Might as well update this. I finished an Epilogue that will be posted as soon as it's proofread. There's also an edited version that's slowly being updated on Ao3 that adds a bit more character stuff on some scenes (up to chapter 6 so far).

https://archiveofourown.org/works/68100 ... s/15549823

I don't know if I've mentioned this before but someone did a TV Tropes pages for Genocide and it's mostly spot on. Thanks to whoever it was.

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Re: [Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby JimmyWolk » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:01 am

Huh, gotta admit, didn't expect the epilogue to still be a thing. Might have to see if I can check by a bit earlier then. ;)

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Re: [Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby Rommel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:05 am

I shared it just in case you want it.

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Re: [Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby JimmyWolk » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:56 am

Not sure if I'll manage today, but I may check tomorrow.

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Re: [Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby Rommel » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:12 pm

Well, I dun went and did it. The Epilogue has been posted.

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Re: [Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby Derantor » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:53 am

Just finished reading the epilogue. You've found a really good, uncontrived reason for them to be able to live on, and I liked the way you handled their relations without having to explain all the in-between. I wasn't expecting such an ending, but it worked very well, and brought some kind of closure without saying too much.

Now I just have to find a reason for my children not being chipped at the end of my story ...

And yeah, go on writing that lemon, it's not a jarring contrast to the rest of the series. I've read your "Diary", so I look forward to great things to come!
Last edited by Derantor on Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby Rommel » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:02 pm

View Original PostDerantor wrote:Just finished reading the epilogue. You found've a really good, uncontrived reason for them to be able to live on, and I liked the way you handled their relations without having to explain all the in-between. I wasn't expecting such an ending, but it worked very well, and brought some kind of closure without saying too much.

Now I just have to find a reason for my children not being chipped at the end of my story ...

And yeah, go on writing that lemon, it's not a jarring contrast to the rest of the series. I've read your "Diary", so I look forward to great things to come!


Glad you liked it. Can't make promises on the lemon bit. It would probably be kinda boring given where they are in the story.

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Re: [Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby Derantor » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:04 pm

You are probably right. The next step would logically be the slow death of sex, lending itself to a dark story how everything turns boring eventually. I imagine ever more extravagant but futile attempts to get some of the old feeling back. Huh, I can't help it, somehow I can never imagine a bright future for those two, it eventually feels fake.

Edit: I recently reread Genocide, and I have a question that I somehow missed on the first reading. I will put it in a spoiler since it pertains to the last chapter.

SPOILER: Show
Your second "Instrumentality" scene confuses me. You let Yui say "Sometimes not even the love of others can comfort us. Sometimes we hurt too much. And we break". Yet, she answers his question ("Should I give up on Asuka?") with "I'm saying you shouldn't let that happen to her". Is it just supposed to be a cautionary tale? Don't let things get so bad that they can't be fixed anymore? Somehow I got the feeling that I am missing some deeper meaning here.

Edit: Or is the message "Try regardless, don't give up"? Seems like I have hit a mental block here, it makes less sense the more I read it. So, bluntly: What was the message here? Besides the messages of: Do not neglect your own happiness entirely for somebody elses, accept death and loss, don't give up?

Edit 2: I think I get it now: If she doesn't want help, there's nothing he can do?

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Re: [Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby Rommel » Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:56 pm

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One of the messages there is that he can't simply afford to do nothing until HE thinks he's ready because by then it might be too late, and if Asuka gets to that stage then there is nothing he can do, no matter how much he wants to help. It's also a reference to Gendo being 'broken' to the point of ignoring the thing that is real important and that should bring him happiness (his son, who is the fruit of his wive's love) while clinging to something he can never truly have again.

This conversation also deals with the fact that he can't heal Asuka. He can't make her be better or become healed. Only she can make that choice (that's why when she returns from the LCL, her body is complete again). He can help her understand, but he can't make her not hurt.



View Original PostDerantor wrote:You are probably right. The next step would logically be the slow death of sex, lending itself to a dark story how everything turns boring eventually. I imagine ever more extravagant but futile attempts to get some of the old feeling back. Huh, I can't help it, somehow I can never imagine a bright future for those two, it eventually feels fake.

Edit: I recently reread Genocide, and I have a question that I somehow missed on the first reading. I will put it in a spoiler since it pertains to the last chapter.

SPOILER: Show
Your second "Instrumentality" scene confuses me. You let Yui say "Sometimes not even the love of others can comfort us. Sometimes we hurt too much. And we break". Yet, she answers his question ("Should I give up on Asuka?") with "I'm saying you shouldn't let that happen to her". Is it just supposed to be a cautionary tale? Don't let things get so bad that they can't be fixed anymore? Somehow I got the feeling that I am missing some deeper meaning here.

Edit: Or is the message "Try regardless, don't give up"? Seems like I have hit a mental block here, it makes less sense the more I read it. So, bluntly: What was the message here? Besides the messages of: Do not neglect your own happiness entirely for somebody elses, accept death and loss, don't give up?

Edit 2: I think I get it now: If she doesn't want help, there's nothing he can do?

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Re: [Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby Derantor » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:28 am

Thanks for the explanation, that clears up some things.

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I guess what confuses me is the way the scene is constructed. At every point, it looks like Shinji chose wrong. That he could have done something different, while it isn't his fault at all that Asuka doesn't listen or explain herself, and doesn't take his feelings into account. I guess this was the point, so, you achieved exactly what you wanted. I guess failed communication just hurts.

Edit: It might just be semantics. Maybe I am just taking everything too literal, or am thinking in too absolute terms, but "He can not make her not hurt" and "He can help her understand" are mutually exclusive statements. If she understands she will not hurt anymore (or less) which in turn means that he CAN make her not hurt. Otherwise it would be pointless for people to get together and help each other - which is exactly what Shinji and Asuka do in your final Instrumentality scene.

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Postby Rommel » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:35 am

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No really. Understanding doesn't necessarily make the hurt go away. Asuka's mother is the perfect example of this. She can understand why she's gone, but it still hurts. In her case, understanding that life hurts is the key. The only way she will ever not hurt is being dead.

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Re: [Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby Derantor » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:25 am

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See, here is where I beg to differ. Asuka already understands that life hurts. She understands it and has accepted the fact that life can only hurt her. That's why she's suicidal. You are correct, if Shinji can only make her understand "Your mom's dead, you will always hurt, I can not make your pain go away, you are all on your own, only you can make yourself better", then she's worse off than before. Because that's precisely what she can't do. If she could be happy on her own, she wouldn't be in the situation she's in in the first place.

What Shinji CAN make her understand though is that life is not only pain. True, he can not shield her from all hurt that comes her way. He can not magically wave a wand and make her forget all the horrible things that she had to endure. But he can alleviate her pain. He can make her feel better, he can help her. Again, that's what they decide to do in the end: help each other. If the only way to not hurt is death, that would be futile and pointless. But death isn't the only way to not hurt. It's the only surefire way to shield oneself from further harm, thats quite a difference. Pumping yourself full of opium is one way to not hurt. I'm not saying it's healthy, but it's still true. In that moment, all the pain goes away. If it hurts more afterwards, that isn't a problem either if we truly accept that life always hurts.

It really just is a matter of perspective. From my point of view, if Shinji can make Asuka shift her perspective in a way that makes her not hurt anymore, or at least not as much, that means he did something to her and not that she did something to herself. Your point of view is based on the fact that Shinji can not force a certain outcome, but I do not agree that that's the case. After all, you can force people to be miserable, so the opposite has to be true as well. It is of course much more difficult and requires much more effort and time, but it isn't impossible, otherwise the concept of "help" would make no sense at all. So, rather than Asukas only option being to make herself better, the more precise statement would be that she has the option to accept having others make her feel better, if she can't manage on her own. Even if she doesn't want to accept that, her subconciousness can be influenced by others against her will to the point where it overpowers her rational thinking.

Take people with anxiety disorders for example. One way to help them is to force them to slowly face their fears, step by step. You can do that with their active participation or without, but it actually requires a certain forcing by the person helping. Another example is military training. You can mould people to do things that they wouldn't normally do. Again, willingness helps, but isn't required. Of course, success is never guaranteed, but saying that you can only help yourself and can only make yourself better divorces the inside world from outside influences and puts all the burden on the rational mind, ignoring the subconcious. Happiness and misery aren't a choice made by the rational mind. Change isn't a purely rational process. Even if you make the active and rational choice to change yourself in some way, for example becoming more orderly, what you are in effect doing is rewiring your subconciousness to the point where orderliness becomes a natural part of your psyche and not an active decision anymore, through the process of repitition. If somebody else forces you in the same way, the outcome is still the same. Of course, there is no guarantee of lasting success and depression is the best way to ruin progress, but depression is as much a decision as happiness is: Meaning, not a decision at all.

This all boils down to the concept of free will. You, and Evangelion for that matter, assume that we do in fact have it, but that's an unproven assumption. Your subconciousness makes decisions before your rational mind gets a chance to act - it only retroactively informs you of your decision. There is nothing in nature that would allow free will to emerge. Your brain is a physical object, it acts according to physical law. Even taking into account random quantum fluctuations in the brain, all you add is randomness, not the ability to actively shape the outcome. This means that your decisions aren't your decisions. They seem like they are, but they aren't. In fact, there are no decisions, only actions and reactions. Why it feels different is the crux of the debate. In essence, free will would require a non-physical soul or entity, able to act independently from the body it inhabits, unconstrained by any law of nature. Such an entity has not been found, and I suspect it never will be. Still, I like to delude myself with the notion that free will exists, in the same way that I just feel like I exist and the world around me is not only a figment of my imagination. A completely irrational point of view, based on unfalsifiable assumptions. Which just goes to show that we do not decide what we believe, which in turn makes our argument pointless: Shinji can not help Asuka, he either does or he doesn't, and Asuka can not help herself, she either gets better or she doesn't, something will happen but neither of them has any say in the matter.

It's still fun to assume that they, and we in turn, do, and I am happy to operate under that assumption. So thanks again for writing Genocide, it forced me to think, which is always a welcome occurence. ^_^


Just out of curiosity, do you have any more stories planned or are you working on anything? I'd be happy to give feedback, I've got the time.

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Re: [Fic] Genocide Extended: Finale December 8th!

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Postby Rommel » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:32 am

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From my perspective If you need to 'force' someone to be happy, that isn't real happiness. I mean, you can make someone happy by giving them lobotomy, too. And sure, you can 'help' someone with anxiety disorders by making them face their fears. That could help. It can also make things worse. The other solution is pumping people full of drugs. That isn't a cure either.

Shinji can try to help her, but he cannot do so if she can't see beyond her hurt. You cannot truly help the unwilling, so the first thing is accepting that pain, which Asuka has never done. Asuka knows life hurts, but she does not accept it or understand it, otherwise she wouldn't be so desperate to escape it. In the end, it needs to be Asuka's choice because otherwise, no matter what Shinji does, she will end up right where she started.


The only other non-smut story I was working on is a sort of Rebuild 2.5 redo but isn't really going anywhere at the moment.


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