So does Shinji like Asuka?

[Sailor Star Dust]

Well, except maybe Kaworu. :P

I really wish you wouldn't make statements that you lack evidence for.

Re: Shinji's Faptastic Adventures in Boobieland: I think people are missing the point of why the Shinji masturbation scene is there. It's to show the state of mind he's in; that he REALLY hit rock bottom. Besides, Asuka doesn't care that he fapped at the sight of her breasts ("Baaka! I know you used me as a Side dish! Why don't you do it again like always? I'll be watching you. If all of you can't become mine, I want nothing.") so it's not that he "took in advantage of her" either way.

@ Tines: You make a few good points in terms of Shinji, HOWEVER, it's not so much that things are "too good to be true", but he doesn't know how else to express his feelings for her being the little Hedgehog that he is. The only time he could express his feelings is when she's asleep. Moving on...

I seriously feel you have it all wrong with thinking that Asuka "just wants out" in the final scene, but that's a topic for another thread. Also, Shinji and Asuka ARE alike, more so then either would want to admit; they both have the SAME REASON FOR PILOTING shown in 26: "Piloting Eva lets me be me."

Is is that you don't WANT to see them as possibly becoming happy together or that Shinji really isn't good enough for "Asuka-chan"? Either way, despite her cold words, Asuka not bothering to push him off or anything once he starts sobbing seems to disagree with that point. If she didn't think he was good enough for him, why lay down at his side upon returning after kicking down her gravemarker? (The Last A scene being scrapped does NOT mean that visual clue changed.)

...This place just wouldn't be the same without you, though. ;)

[Mr. Tines]

I had been thinking of the bathtub scene in my previous post, saying that Asuka wanted to call it quits.

"Shinji really isn't good enough" -- the fact that in EoE he shows himself to be a despicable little shit aside, women go for : money, power, height, intelligence. Shinji comes off badly on all counts.

"don't WANT to see them as possibly becoming happy together" -- more seeing that when brought together their discrepant personalities lead to EPIC FAIL.

"Piloting Eva lets me be me." is a superficial likeness, compared with their divergent temperaments. And even there, EVA has been Asuka's life about as far back as she remembers; Shinji has been promoted from zero to sorta-hero in the recent past.

[Sandoz]

Re: Shinji's Faptastic Adventures in Boobieland: I think people are missing the point of why the Shinji masturbation scene is there. It's to show the state of mind he's in; that he REALLY hit rock bottom. Besides, Asuka doesn't care that he fapped at the sight of her breasts ("Baaka! I know you used me as a Side dish! Why don't you do it again like always? I'll be watching you. If all of you can't become mine, I want nothing.") so it's not that he "took in advantage of her" either way.

He hit rock bottom, but his actions don't count as taking advantage of her? That seems contradictory.

Yes, Asuka mentions Shinji's "jerk off" fantasies in Instrumentality and says that she wants all of him or nothing, but that doesn't automatically indicate approval. If all Shinji wants to do is use her body for a plaything, she doesn't want him at all.

Then there's Yuko Miyamura, who has said in an interview that "Kimochi warui" was ad-libbed (replacing the scripted "I'd never want to be killed by you of all men, absolutely not!" line that also appeared in the scrapped "Asuka kicks down her own gravemarker" ending) in direct response to the masturbation scene.

At last Anno asked me "Miyamura, just imagine you are sleeping in your bed and a stranger sneaks into your room. He can rape you anytime as you are asleep but he doesn't. Instead, he masturbates looking at you, when you wake up and know what he did to you. What do you think you would say?"

I had been thinking he was a strange man, but at that moment I felt disgusting. So I told him that I thought "Disgusting". And then he sighed and said "... thought as much." He said. " I thought as much. "

[chee]

Here's how I see it.

He mayo'd himself over her, tried to strangle her, and yet she still caresses him. This says something.

[Sailor Star Dust]

@ Sandoz: That Miyamura interview is made of Fail. The reason Asuka says "I feel sick" is because Asuka finds Shinji pathetic (he was sobbing and all). Note her very similar expression in Pre-Instrumentality when he falls after she pushes him.

@ chee: USORITE.

[Incisivis]

Most boys, knowing that the world was coming to an end, would have done a lot more. I think the scene says a lot about Shinji's feelings toward Asuka. He could have done anything he wanted with Asuka.

So expressing at least a modicum of basic decency is a sign of a great love? Good to know :P

Shines, you've got a pretty low opinion of the male gender if you think like that. I'm not even going to *touch* the other implications of your statement.

Re: Shinji's Faptastic Adventures in Boobieland: I think people are missing the point of why the Shinji masturbation scene is there. It's to show the state of mind he's in; that he REALLY hit rock bottom. Besides, Asuka doesn't care that he fapped at the sight of her breasts ("Baaka! I know you used me as a Side dish! Why don't you do it again like always? I'll be watching you. If all of you can't become mine, I want nothing.") so it's not that he "took in advantage of her" either way.

Shinji used Asuka's body for his own gratification. Less directly than actually violating her, but he used the sight of Asuká's bare breasts as a masturbatory aid. Even if he hated himself for it, he still did it.

And I always read her statements about "doing it again like always" as angry/sarcastic. "If all of you can't become mine", etc. also meant possessiveness to me.

He hit rock bottom, but his actions don't count as taking advantage of her? That seems contradictory.

Well, maybe things didn't need to go too far to make that point, and lose what small island of audience sympathy was left.

I doubt that Asuka found Shinji that physically attractive, but he's a bishie anyway.

Hm? I never thought of Shinji like that...

There's no doubt that they like each other, I'm just not sure how much they accept it within themselves. I mean, Asuka had no trouble showing off her boobs to Shinji at the start of the series, but she began to get a whole lot more hateful and neurotic towards the end. Shinji, too...he was embarassed at first but that hospital scene, well...

Both just can't consistently accept that they really do like each other because they're so messed up.

Agreed.

[Sailor Star Dust]

And I always read her statements about "doing it again like always" as angry/sarcastic. "If all of you can't become mine", etc. also meant possessiveness to me.

Asuka was angry upon finding out that Shinji had "always" did that sort of thing and never confessed his feelings to her: instead of doing that, he could have had the chance to do HER (hence the possessiveness) if only he spoke up. And in terms of how Asuka said those words, there was no sarcasm; she was SERIOUS.


....Where's ANF's old posts when I need them. For that matter, where's ANF? :?

[shinesman_cobalt]

Most boys, knowing that the world was coming to an end, would have done a lot more. I think the scene says a lot about Shinji's feelings toward Asuka. He could have done anything he wanted with Asuka.

So expressing at least a modicum of basic decency is a sign of a great love? Good to know :P

Shines, you've got a pretty low opinion of the male gender if you think like that. I'm not even going to *touch* the other implications of your statement.

Well, seeing as how I am a male, you may be right. But then again, maybe I just have a low opinion of myself. Personally, I wouldn't have been able to do anything, as I'm pretty shy. I didnt mean to say that all men are secretly rapists. Far from that. But the world was coming to an END. There wasn't gonna be a tommorrow at that point. These are different circumstances. And now I've painted myself into a corner because I don't know how to say what I meant, as what I mean has been twisted into "You think all men are rapists!" So I'm just gonna sit over here now.

[Mr. Tines]

@ Sandoz: That Miyamura interview is made of Fail.

I think she might have a better idea of what was going on at the time than we do. Yes, it may not align with the way you would like things to be; and is admittedly extra-textual; but I don't think we can say it is that worthless.

[CorporalChaos]

@ Sandoz: That Miyamura interview is made of Fail.

I think she might have a better idea of what was going on at the time than we do. Yes, it may not align with the way you would like things to be; and is admittedly extra-textual; but I don't think we can say it is that worthless.

I'll agree with Tines here for once.

[Incisivis]

I didnt mean to say that all men are secretly rapists. Far from that. But the world was coming to an END. There wasn't gonna be a tommorrow at that point.

Well, I don't see any reason why morality wouldn't hold up under the circumstances. Some people do break their codes under stress, they're only human, but what you're talking about wouldn't ever be justifiable or inevitable.

These are different circumstances. And now I've painted myself into a corner because I don't know how to say what I meant, as what I mean has been twisted into "You think all men are rapists!" So I'm just gonna sit over here now.

That's just how I took your words. I didn't mean to twist anything.

[Coded to the Core]

Well , He did like Asuka but i dont think Asuka Liked him in return (at first , too much ego to admit ), The only reason why he came to her was as Countless number of people said ; "Because there were nobody else" , He was cold towards Ayanami and she was towards him , Misato was nowhere around and the only person he could think of was Asuka , But i still think Asuka actually felt the affection in the last chapter "One more Final" where Shinji is strangling Asuka to regain the sense of reality .

Another way of understanding it :

Shinji harbors semi-romantic feelings for the three women closest to him, but his distrusting nature prevents him from developing any kind of meaningful relationship with them, and inside he angrily believes them of intentionally building barriers to prevent him from getting close. Again it is Asuka that it is most interesting to consider in this light. Sensing a kindred soul beneath her aggressive exterior (or perhaps admiring the determination he lacks), Shinji comes to love her, but does not know how to express it. Likewise, it is hinted that Asuka has similarly romantic feelings for Shinji, but her ego prevents her from admitting it even to herself. This is illustrated in an hilarious sequence in which Asuka, feigning boredom, asks, "Hey Shinji, you wanna kiss me?"; Shinji stammers and blushes until an exasperated Asuka walks up and kisses him until he literally turns blue. Afterwards she runs off screaming "Eww, gross!". Set against this lighthearted sequence is a similarly staged scene in "The End of Evangelion" that is one of the most disturbing moments in the entire Evangelion canon. In another of his head-trips, Shinji imagines the time he and Asuka shared their first kiss, although instead of said kiss Shinji confesses his love to Asuka. Asuka accuses him of loving her purely for selfish reasons; that he is only running to someone...anyone...for comfort. Unsure of his own self, Shinji has feared this to be true all along. At the end of his rope, feeling absolutely rejected and angry at her for denying him, Shinji strangles Asuka. Driven mad by his internal struggles, Shinji almost strangles Asuka for real later in the movie. She is saved by finally admitting her feelings to him, and as she gently caresses his cheek he snaps out of his delusion and collapses in tears. By opening their hearts to one another Shinji and Asuka at last have a chance at happiness. Unfortunately the brutality of this scene obscures its tender meaning, and the Evangelion saga ends on a dour note despite reprising the positive message from its television conclusion.

[Shin-seiki]

In another of his head-trips, Shinji imagines the time...

An indispensible pre-requisite of comprehending the meaning of that scene is to grasp that Asuka is every bit as much "there", as an active participant in what goes down, as Shinji is. If you want to characteize it as a "head-trip", then it should be stipulated that it's "trip" that Shinji and Asuka are participating in together.

[CorporalChaos]

lol where did you get that from?

Anyway, I think it does touch the point, at least on Shinji's side of affairs, but I think it misses a lot on Asuka's side. She does like him deep down, but she can't express it without making herself look weak. By looking weak, she's afraid that it will open her heart to others, so if she gets abandoned, it will hurt her even more.

Both Shinji and Asuka, by their nature, are very distrusting people, even distrusting the one they love (or think they love) and push each other away.

[Sailor Star Dust]

CC, the information Coded posted is either from Leaky or from this Youtube description that somebody posted for their upload of the Final Scene I Need You. Either way, that's probably from Leaky (Wiki) too.

Do NOT trust what Wikipedia says; it's VERY incorrect and downright wrong information!

@ CC: Here, have an Internet.

@ Shin-seiki: How do you interpret Asuka's feelings about Shinji's Faptastic Adventures in Boobieland? Do you think that she didn't care as Pre-Instrumentality reveals, or that that WAS part of the reason she said "I feel sick" in the Final Scene?

Personally, I take her "I feel sick" as meaning being disgusted about Shinji's pathetic nature (the fact he was sobbing and how Asuka sees crying as weakness).

Afterall, the cold glare she gives him is VERY similar to her expressions in the Coffeepot Strangulation scene.



...I really just wish I knew where that post by Anonymous Eva Fan was (How Do I Remember Thread?), it made some really good points, and even used images in context (a Shin-Seiki Rule. ;))

[NAveryW]

She didn't really care, but felt sick that she actually revealed that to Shinji?

Think of it this way: if S hadn't had his FA in her BL, and instead had just quickly put her shirt back together (or left her) and walked out, would she have felt offended that he felt nothing for her physically?

[Sailor Star Dust]

Ah. I see.

The way I interpreted the first scene and final scene wasn't so much because he masturbated, but the fact in BOTH scenes, he cries on her cheek.

Either way, that makes a hell of a lot more sense to me now, thanks to what you said. btw, are you do one who came up with "SFAiBL"??

And to answer your question: YES. I think she'd be more pissed off if he didn't do that. At least things like his kiss attempt in episode 9 and SFAiBL in 26' are proof that he is physically attracted to her, albeit how disturbing either of them (Only expressing his feelings for her when she's asleep? Oh dear..) can be seen. After all, him not holding her (lol 15, 22') was bad enough...


Some more possible "proof" that she doesn't care (Basically, take this as you will): Note just WHERE Shinji's head ends up, and how Asuka doesn't do anything (e.g: Pushing him out of the way, calling him a pervert; whatever would be typical Asuka behavior) DESPITE her cold glare and words in "the coldest voice possible"?
I guess Gainax felt Asuka's glare and response was good enough proof that despite the caress, yes, this IS Asuka. ;)

I also think with the final scene, her word's "I feel sick" is perfect with its ambiguity (NO! Anything but THAT!) because there do seem to be several things that are bothering her, not just Shinji.

But I won't go into that right now.

[NAveryW]

btw, are you do one who came up with "SFAiBL"??

Reichu came up with the phrase; I just came up with the acronym and continued using the phrase enough that it stuck. XD

I don't believe that Asuka's reaction in "I Need You" was purely about the FAi her BL, though it was probably part of it. Come, now, Instrumentality showed everything about everyone to everyone. There's simply nothing left to hide. I doubt one (or more) masturbation incident was the whole reason for Asuka's actions.

[CorporalChaos]

(Only expressing his feelings for her when she's asleep? Oh dear..)

Well, I think that's the only time he can express his feelings without fear of reprisal from Asuka, no?

DESPITE her cold glare and words in "the coldest voice possible"

I think the barriers went back up, after all, Shinji just did try and kill her...

[Sailor Star Dust]

There's simply nothing left to hide.

Which is possibly another take on just WHY Shinji snapped in Pre-Instrumentality. He KNOWS Asuka is flat-out being a bitch (I seriously hate to call her that, but...) and possibly projecting during the kitchen scene.

I think the barriers went back up, after all, Shinji just did try and kill her...

Agreed. In some ways, I'd hope her barriers would go back up after just what happened. Jeez.