Shinji and his fans...or lack thereof

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Shinji and his fans...or lack thereof

Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:30 pm

I feel this belongs in chit-chat is it's not "cool" enough for the Discussion thread.

Um, yeah. So WHY exactly do people think Shinji's such a wuss, and/or don't like him? (That includes Spike -_- Hell, Ogata-san herself stated she likes him as she likes all the characters she plays!)

Before I watched the series, I heard how much of a crybaby and loser he was, but espeically while and after watching it, I really didn't think he's that bad. Yeah, he has "daddy issues" as well as running away because he thinks he's worthless, but the fact that he continued to pilot EVA despite all the reasons and times he didn't want to I think is saying something.

Also considering the fact he saved the world in the end, something like that clearly takes courage and strength. He KNEW Instrumentality didn't feel right...

So what if he cries a lot and doesn't always act strong? Real heroes AREN'T going to be amazing macho men or women who never have any problems; instead their real people with faults like everybody else. Shinji's personality and his intereactions with others is part of what drew me into the series to begin with...(Hearing it was a psychological show didn't hurt, either. ;))

Shinji, ala episode 25 and 26: "See?! I TOLD you people hate me!Image"

Thoughts?
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Re: Shinji and his fans...or lack thereof

Postby TriLink » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:23 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:Also considering the fact he saved the world in the end, something like that clearly takes courage and strength. He KNEW Instrumentality didn't feel right...

Thoughts?


I've never felt like Shinji was a bad guy or anything, but calling him a hero is a bit of a stretch. Sure, he stopped instrumentality but the only reason it happened to begin with is because that's what HE wanted. It can be argued that SEELE could have found someone else to initiate it, but who?

I've always thought of Shinji as a guy who lights a building on fire, grabs the fire extinguisher, puts the fire out and then expects everyone to praise him for it.

Yes, I know he has mental issues from years of abuse, but so do millions of other people and they manage to overcome them just fine. Hero's are different from other people because they find the courage to do the right thing, which Shinji clearly was unable to do.

Again, not a bad guy, just not a hero That's my take on the matter.
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Postby zephyr72 » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:24 pm

I think he was pretty spineless in the way he went through life; doing whatever he was told and letting others dictate his life (usually). Other than that, I'd agree that many of his actions took courage and strength.

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Re: Shinji and his fans...or lack thereof

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:20 pm

TriLink12 wrote:I've never felt like Shinji was a bad guy or anything, but calling him a hero is a bit of a stretch. Sure, he stopped instrumentality but the only reason it happened to begin with is because that's what HE wanted. It can be argued that SEELE could have found someone else to initiate it, but who?

Rei deserves most of the blame for that. She could have told him no but still tanged everyone anyways, probably at Yui's sugestion. Pinning all of the blame on Shinji is, well, a bit much.
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Re: Shinji and his fans...or lack thereof

Postby Trigger's Elysium » Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:58 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Rei deserves most of the blame for that. She could have told him no but still tanged everyone anyways, probably at Yui's sugestion. Pinning all of the blame on Shinji is, well, a bit much.


I know I haven't posted in a while, but huuuh? What kind of reasoning is this? Please tell me where you heard Rei encouraging him to start 3I, or how it's not actually Shinji's will for humanity to go away. I mean, it's implied pretty clear that he wanted it to happen in that moment before he realizes that 3I bites dicks. I really can't see how you got the possibility of Rei possibly coaxing him out of it.
He was warrior and mystic, ogre and saint, the fox and the innocent, chivalrous, ruthless, less than a god, more than a man. There is no measuring Muad'Dib's motives by ordinary standards. In the moment of his triumph, he saw the death prepared for him, yet he accepted the treachery. Can you say he did this out of a sense of justice? Whose justice, then? Remember, we speak now of the Muad'Dib who ordered battle drums made from his enemies' skins, the Muad'Dib who denied the conventions of his ducal past with a wave of the hand, saying merely: "I am the Kwisatz Haderach. That is reason enough."

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Re: Shinji and his fans...or lack thereof

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:13 pm

Trigger's Elysium wrote:
Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Rei deserves most of the blame for that. She could have told him no but still tanged everyone anyways, probably at Yui's sugestion. Pinning all of the blame on Shinji is, well, a bit much.


I know I haven't posted in a while, but huuuh? What kind of reasoning is this? Please tell me where you heard Rei encouraging him to start 3I, or how it's not actually Shinji's will for humanity to go away. I mean, it's implied pretty clear that he wanted it to happen in that moment before he realizes that 3I bites dicks. I really can't see how you got the possibility of Rei possibly coaxing him out of it.


I think you misread that. I was saying Yui probably sugested to Rei that she should go through with it. Clearly Yui had a screwy plan that day. Ultimately Lilith was the one in control weather she was granting Shinji's wish or not.
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Postby Trigger's Elysium » Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:20 am

...eh? Rei/Lillith made her choice when she fused with Lillith in the first place. Besides...how would Lillith Rei possibly communicate with Yui until after Unit 01 was inducted into Lillith Rei, which was during the entire Instrumentality process. After this, 3I was orchestrated by the discretion of Shinji, and Yui would be with him as she is the soul of Unit 01, but she doesn't have a say in the ultimate outcome, I don't think. Rei has the power, but she does not have the will, so to speak. Even if I misread the ultimate reason for your question, I still don't see how it was Rei or Yui's "fault".

As for on topic, I like Shinji a lot. He's probably my favorite protoganist in an anime. He's very human.
He was warrior and mystic, ogre and saint, the fox and the innocent, chivalrous, ruthless, less than a god, more than a man. There is no measuring Muad'Dib's motives by ordinary standards. In the moment of his triumph, he saw the death prepared for him, yet he accepted the treachery. Can you say he did this out of a sense of justice? Whose justice, then? Remember, we speak now of the Muad'Dib who ordered battle drums made from his enemies' skins, the Muad'Dib who denied the conventions of his ducal past with a wave of the hand, saying merely: "I am the Kwisatz Haderach. That is reason enough."

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:30 am

Trigger's Elysium wrote:Even if I misread the ultimate reason for your question, I still don't see how it was Rei or Yui's "fault".


Well Yui clearly wanted 3I to happen for some reason. As for Rei, you answered that one for me.
Rei has the power, but she does not have the will, so to speak.

As I said in my first post in this thread she could have not done what he said, but she didn't make the decision for herself. Shinji surely couldn't have known saying "Everyone just die" would result in 3I, Rei and Yui on the other hand knew exactly what was happening. They all have some blame in it, the question is to what degree is everyone responsible.

Besides...how would Lillith Rei possibly communicate with Yui until after Unit 01 was inducted into Lillith Rei

Think Areal, ATF communication.
ep #22 wrote:Misato:
Analysis of the ray of light?!

HYUGA:
It's an energy wave within the visible spectrum!
It's similar to the AT Field, but details are unknown!


EoE wrote:Rei:
No. Ikari is calling me.


Also, by that logic she couldn't have been talking to Shinji during P3II.

EDIT: Yui fused with Lilith after they all had their chat with Gendo.
Image
EoE wrote:SCENE: Gendo lying on floor in Terminal Dogma

Gendo:
I've been waiting for this moment for so long... To finally be with you again, Yui.
When I'm with Shinji, I only hurt him. So, it's better that I do nothing.

Yui:
So, you were afraid of Shinji.

Gendo:
I don't believe that I can be loved by others... I'm not worthy of love.

Kaworu:
You're just running away. You simply reject the world before you get hurt.

Yui:
Afraid of the shapeless, invisible things between people...

Rei:
You just closed your heart to others.

Gendo:
So, this is my retribution. Forgive me... Shinji.

(Demon-like EVA-01 bites Gendo in half... Rei II picks up Gendo's fallen glasses. The three clones of Rei stand together.)

(Eva series impale their cores on the Lance replicas with gasps of ecstasy... Countless crosses spring up as a red wave speeds across the earth's surface... Souls flow from the Earth to the Black Moon and then into Lilith-Rei's hands... An eye appears in Lilith-Rei's forehead into which the EVA-01/Lance cross plunges itself and disappears...)

[url]http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C375_anim.gif[/url]
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Postby MaggotMaster » Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:18 am

Saying it's Rei's fault is like saying that a gun is guilty in a murder.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:24 am

MaggotMaster wrote:Saying it's Rei's fault is like saying that a gun is guilty in a murder.

Guns don't have free will, Rei being a human does as she displayed in rejecting Gendo. Yui is the one the most at fault though.

EoE wrote:Yui (voice):
This Rei is your heart... Your very hopes and dreams...

Rei (voice):
What do you wish for?

How would Yui know that unless she talked Rei into doing what Shinji said? Well I guess Rei and Yui are equally at fault. Yui's plan with Rei carrying it out.
Last edited by Anonymous_Evafan on Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:28 am

MaggotMaster wrote:Saying it's Rei's fault is like saying that a gun is guilty in a murder.

Except a gun won't actively put itself into your hands out of nowhere, have a convoluted conversation with you about whether or not killing a bunch of people (and yourself, too) is something you're REAL-LY interested in, and then go and do all the killing for you while you sit back and have absolutely no clue what the fuck is going on.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby MaggotMaster » Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:31 am

Reichu wrote:
MaggotMaster wrote:Saying it's Rei's fault is like saying that a gun is guilty in a murder.

Except a gun won't actively put itself into your hands out of nowhere, have a convoluted conversation with you about whether or not killing a bunch of people (and yourself, too) is something you're REAL-LY interested in, and then go and do all the killing for you while you sit back and have absolutely no clue what the fuck is going on.


Wait wait wait.

They don't?

No reason to buy a gun now then.
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Re: Shinji and his fans...or lack thereof

Postby master0rolando » Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:10 am

Sailor Star Dust wrote:Also considering the fact he saved the world in the end, something like that clearly takes courage and strength. He KNEW Instrumentality didn't feel right...

He sorta came a little late...but its not like any real person wouldn't do the same thing...
Sailor Star Dust wrote:So what if he cries a lot and doesn't always act strong? Real heroes AREN'T going to be amazing macho men or women who never have any problems; instead their real people with faults like everybody else.

Exactly...thats why Evangelion is so good...like i said...thats a real person would act...
Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Yui is the one the most at fault though.

Honestly...i have no respect for Yui...i really don't like her...shes just like Keel...i mean seriously...who does she think she is?...does she think she should be God?...what makes her think that she has the right to end the world...shes quite insane actually...

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:11 pm

Anime Shinji is an understandably flawed character, who almost all of the time tries to do the right thing, even if at times he's not quite sure what that is.

Movie Shinji is an utter oik, a wet a weed a cad and a quitter and i diskard him uterly (sa n molesworth).

Manga Shinji we don't talk about.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:44 pm

でも、アニメ版のシンジと劇場版のシンジは同一人物じゃないか。Er, I mean, are anime Shinji and movie Shinji not one and the same?

If one were to impose a policy of separation here, it would only be fair to make the policy consistent across all characters. Kyufufufu.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:52 pm

Reichu wrote:でも、アニメ版のシンジと劇場版のシンジは同一人物じゃないか


I offer the following: Exhibit A.
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Postby TriLink » Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:59 pm

This is the conversation between Shinji and Rei/Lillith right after the dream sequence where Shinji strangles Asuka. Pay special attention to the stuff in bold.

EOE wrote:S: No one understands me

R: You don't know anything

S: I thought it was a wonderful world where no one would betray me.

R: Your imagination goes too far. You thought others would be like you.

S: She betrayed me! She betrayed my feelings!

R: It was all in your mind from the beggining, it was a selfish thought.

S: Nobody needs me, EVERYONE SHOULD DIE!

R: Then what are your hands for?

S: Whether I'm here or not makes no difference to anyone. So EVERYONE SHOULD DIE!

R: Then what is your heart for?

S: Everyone probably dosen't want to see me anyway, so I should die too.

R: Then why are you here?

S: Is it okay if I stay? *Pause followed by Shinji screaming*


I found both Shinji and Rei to be at fault for 3I after watching this scene again. Shinji for being Shinji and Rei for taking advantage of his emotions to manipulate him into starting instrumentality. Shinji was depressed and in a vulnerable state pretty much willing to do anything to make his pain and unhappiness go away. While Rei was egging him on the whole time. Can anyone honestly say these people are heroes?

master0rolando wrote:Honestly...i have no respect for Yui...i really don't like her...shes just like Keel...i mean seriously...who does she think she is?...does she think she should be God?...what makes her think that she has the right to end the world...shes quite insane actually...


I agree 100%. I always thought Yui was one of the good guys.

You know, trying to stop her insane husband from destroying the world. But the more I learn about her charecter the more I think she's just as fucked up as the rest of them if not more so.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:02 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:I offer the following: Exhibit A.

They brutalized the Evas' designs in the movie, with it showing the most on EVA-02. How is that particular discrepancy relevant to the discussion?

Trilink wrote:But the more I learn about [Yui's] charecter the more I think she's just as fucked up as the rest of them if not more so.

You might be falling prey to simplifications either way.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby TriLink » Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:11 pm

Reichu wrote:
Trilink wrote:But the more I learn about [Yui's] charecter the more I think she's just as fucked up as the rest of them if not more so.

You might be falling prey to simplifications either way.

Perhaps I should rephrase that.

I don't think Yui is evil. Nor Gendo, or even Keel for that matter. I think there all apeshit insane people who think there doing the right thing for humanity when all there really doing is damning them.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:27 pm

Wasn't Rei doing what Shinji wanted, regardless of wheather Yui had anything to do with it, because she wanted to acutally give Shinji a choice as well as make him see that Instrumentality is NOT such a happy thing after all?

Saying that Yui is insane is foolish; what else could she have done, as Yui or shogoki, to get Shinji to stand on his own two feet (as demonstarted by the 2nd to last scene, "You'll be okay now?")? Again, he needs to have an acutal choice with things.

Anime Shinji--regardless of movie or series--I like. Granted, most people don't have sympthay for Shinji ending up suicidally-depressed in EoE because of what he went through (one of the main reasons being killing Kaworu-kun), but again, him acting that way makes him all the more real. It does NOT make his behavior of giving up (eg: not getting to shogoki sooner (instead of just sitting around under some stairs, waiting to die) so he could acutally help Asuka and so Misato wouldn't have to die) okay, but it just makes it understandable...at least for some of us who have suffered through depression, as well. Again; he's all the more REAL that way.

Manga Shinji I really could care less about, he's a smart-ass little prick as far as I'm concerned, but that won't stop me from reading that last 3 volumes of the Manga when they'd finally come out. :twisted:
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