Rei in Rebuild Reflects Anno’s Hated Of Her And Anti-Escapism Mesaage

[dzzthink]

Again, this is just your way of interpreting the series. I don't see it that way at all. It was Shinji's extreme desire to save Rei that awakened Eva-01 and allowed it to go berserk and combat the Angel. Yes, billions died, but the alternative was that the Eva-01 did not awaken, and the Angels would destroy the world completely. It was Shinji's primal instincts that gave him the drive to push forward, and even if his intentions were catastrophic, Rei was his motivation, and that was enough for him to get off his ass and do something relevant. In thrice, Shinji learns discipline on the farm and comes to terms with the fact that, yes, he did a big mistake in both 2.22 and 3.33, but hey, let's give it another go and save the world again, but in a less moronic manner.

[LightDragonman]

But again, it still seems to imply that what Shinji should’ve done after reactivating Unit 01 is to just kill Zeruel and leave Rei to die inside the Angel. Sacrifice one to save the rest of the world, regardless of the personal connection he has with her.

And that interpretation still leaves out the meta-commentary on escapism that saving Rei seemed to imply by Anno. Basically, in choosing to save her rather than letting her die, he’s picking escapism over reality. Where he can be coddled by someone who Anno sees as a maternal symbol, and effectively refuse growing up by just killing Rei.

Any thoughts and/or rebuttals on the meta-aspect that the third film implies?

[BernardoCairo]

Maybe Q was intentionally trying to explore morality itself. You know, really dive into that grey area between right and wrong, and question whether someone should be held accountable for what they genuinely believed was a good deed. Have you ever considered that?

[LightDragonman]

Still, that doesn’t leave much room for exploration when the consequences are as severe as they are. Again, BILLIONS dead. Regardless of if you had good intentions, that really doesn’t matter when you’ve caused the death of nearly the entire world’s population. Any shades of grey don’t really work as a defense for when a person causes that.

Heck, I’m guessing that why Anno decided to focus so much on Shinji saying “I don’t care what happens to the world” come the third film. Meaning that as long as he could save Rei, the rest of the world could burn.

It’s the same sort of thing as the White Phosphorus scene in Spec Ops The Line, where the hero’s attempt to stop the opposition resulted in him killing 47 innocent people. Even if he didn’t mean to do so, the story still portrays him as being completely in the wrong, as it all stemmed from him trying to be a hero, and excuses have no meaning when lives are lost.

So saying that “b-but he thought he was doing good” is a weak excuse. Heck, the last film didn’t really give Shinji many consequences for being arguably the worst mass-murderer in history, which really feels like a cop-out.

And once more, that still doesn’t cover the decision to make it so that it was him trying to save Rei that caused it, who again, is a character that Anno sees as symbolizing the stereotypical passive waifu and escapism that he hates. When taking into the whole anti-escapism themes of the series as a whole, why else should I see it as anything other than him saying that Rei should’ve been killed with Zeruel, lest Shinji succumb to his childish desire for a coddling escapist fantasy over reality?

Just seems like another weak attempt to try to say that Anno doesn’t hate Rei and her fans, when all this clearly shows he does.

Any rebuttals?

I know I sound bitter. But with all I’ve said, and given how I related to Rei, can you blame me for Anno showcasing his complete hatred of Rei and anyone who dare relate to her plight rather than see her as a creepy symbol for escapism that must be rejected? Which he made abundantly clear with how much he crapped all over her in 3.0, yet all I see here is jus excuses trying to exonerate Anno of all this, saying that he does t hate her at all?

[nerv bae]

Any rebuttals?

Let’s take it for granted that Shinji shouldn’t have tried to save Rei, a first message intrinsic to the films, and that Anno hates Rei, an attitude extrinsic to the films. From these you conclude that a second message of the films is that Rei deserved to die. But, I reject this because it’s based in part on extrinsic information. Can you argue the second message based only on intrinsic information?

[LightDragonman]

Intrinsic evidence needed? How about the simple fact that the films showed that, should Shinji have just killed Rei along with Zeruel, billions of lives would've been spared and Shinji wouldn't be retreating into a coddling escapist fantasy. How can you argue against the lives of billions being spared?

And heck, the fact that Shinji shouldn't have tried to save Rei is, as you put it, a message intrinsic to the films, only furthers my feelings on this. And regardless if Anno hating Rei is extrinsic to the films, it still plays a part in the meta-narrative the third film carried.

Again, it really seems like you guys are having to twist yourselves into knots to try to deny that Anno hates Rei and communicated that she shouldn't ever be a character you want to see live or for Shinji to save.

[nerv bae]

Intrinsic evidence needed? How about the simple fact that the films showed that, should Shinji have just killed Rei along with Zeruel, billions of lives would've been spared and Shinji wouldn't be retreating into a coddling escapist fantasy. How can you argue against the lives of billions being spared?

This is not an argument that Rei deserved to die based only on intrinsic information, because:

1) “billions of lives would've been spared” does not imply she deserved to die, and
2) “ Shinji wouldn't be retreating into a coddling escapist fantasy” is not clearly relevant to the issue.

Again, it really seems like you guys are having to twist yourselves into knots

I’m not doing that. I’m just trying to get you to fully structure your position.

[LightDragonman]

“billions of lives would've been spared” does not imply she deserved to die

It’s just simple calculation. One person vs nearly the entire world’s population. If it meant keeping billions of people alive, then yeah, she did deserve to be killed along with Zeruel.

“ Shinji wouldn't be retreating into a coddling escapist fantasy” is not clearly relevant to the issue

I mean, the fact that he said that “I don’t care what happens to the world” does imply that. And how is it not relevant when that is part of the meta-commentary on escapism that the series is known for.

For that matter, why is intrinsic information really needed here?

---

Seems like no one has bothered to make a response to the last post.

Guess I was right to believe that Anno hates Rei due to him only seeing her as a symbol for his hated type of waifu and escapism, and that Shinji saving her was a mistake tans that he should’ve let her die, as he was just regressing to an escapist and immature fantasy by doing so, killing billions in the process.

I just can’t understand why some think Anno believes differently, regardless of him saying that Rei represents the “deepest part of himself”. He says that sure, but what he shows and implies in the films proper proves otherwise.

Double post merged - BernardoCairo

[The18°angel]

With how the events in 2.0 that lead the near third impact to happen and the context to Asuka and Rei origins, it's extrange. Shinji confronts the same situation and he reacts in different ways.

With Asuka, the 9° angel took over unit 03 and absorved her, the entry plug became the core of the angel. Shinji refused to fight the angel because to kill the angel he has to destroy the core, and the entry plug was the core. So he chooses to do nothing, the dummy system is activated and Asuka is crushed. Shinji decides to quit NERV.

With Rei, the 10° angel eats Unit 00 and absorved Rei. Shinji decides to try to save her at all cost because he already choose to do nothing with Asuka and that was a wrong choice. So he tries everything in his power to save her without destroying the angels core in the proccess without having ensure Rei would be safe first.Wich realistically was also the only way to save Asuka without crushing Unit 03 entry plug to finally kill the angel, the problem is that at the time Shinji could have not possibly know that Asuka would survive that.

The context that gets added by 3.0 and 3.0+1.0, means that the right "adult" choice for Shinji in those events was to engage, destroy and make sure that Asuka dies on that incident, because no Asuka, means no angel that can be revived in the future for a final impact. After that he should have stayed in Tokyo 03 and help in the battle against the 10° angel, between him and Mari piloting Unit 02 they might be able to kill the angel and nothing happens to Rei. But in the case Rei still gets eated now Shinji just has to do exactly what he did with Asuka and kill the angel, because Rei just like Asuka was a "lost cause".

But this would go against the very nature of Shinji ikari as a character.

And for 3.0 to work as a movie Shinji had to loose. Shinji in 2.0 found his resolve and determination. If Rei had come out with him in 3.0, then he literally has no reason to leave the WUNDER. He might feel guilty, but he would at least find confort on the fact that Rei is alive in the physical world. He might even be fully willing to carry the weight of his actions and take responsability for what he did because he saved Rei. But then 3.0 would have to be completly re-writed.

3.0 requires Shinji to be desperate enough to pull the spears at any cost, that means that his resolve and determination must be broken and he must be isolated in the hand in NERV.

Sadly this means that Rei must be "dead" for a while until the reveal that Shinji did infact save her and that saving her was not a wrong choice. With his new found "maturity" he is now capable of saving Asuka(who got eated and absorved by Unit 13) without the threat of breaking the world in the proccess. The executions of this ideas however makes it look like they are being vicious to the idea of saving Rei in any form in 2.0.

[LightDragonman]

Honestly, that just reveals a problem I’ve always had with Anno’s writing. He is so obsessed with making sure that the themes and messages that he wants to communicate are visible to the audience, that he is willing to twist and contort the story and characters to do so, regardless of whether or not it makes sense, or if it compromises character development and relationship building.

The relationship between Shinji and Rei being ruined and shown as a mistake in 3.33 is a microcosm of that.

---

I did find this analysis that pretty much sums up why exactly Anno hates Rei and anyone who likes her.

Rei is a monster. People forget this and act like she's human. She's half alien, half Shinji's mother. She is no different to Kaworu. If you think she deserves a good ending then you missed the entire point of Rei. She is not human, she is not a child. She is a meat suit for an Angel to walk around in. Shinji clinging to his mother's clone, with none of the personality or soul of his mother is not a good choice. Putting aside any of Anno's personal issues. Would you think it's a good idea to be your teenage mother with the soul of an alien in her? There's no good in any of that. Shinji picking Rei is either incest or xenophilia. Neither is picking a real human woman. And one of Eva's original core messages was "Human relationships are hard, they hurt and you have to open yourself up to that hurt or you never get any of the good parts". Rei is not human, Rei can never be human. She is picking your 2D incest waifu over a 3d woman. When Shinji picks Rei over the rest of humanity he is making a bad decision. And then when we see the effects later, Rei is just mass produced any way. She's still an alien, she's still a clone. His attachment to the fake doomed the real. And Eva has always said picking a bad reality is better than picking a comfortable falsehood. The fanbase at this point needs Asuka to scream it at you from a fan festival movie.

She’s not a person. If you consider Rei to be a person then the Evangelions are people. She is a pocket sized Eva and no matter what she thinks or feels, she can never be human. She can never be a child who is born, lives and dies the way a human does. She has no mother, she has no father, she has no experiences of becoming a 14 year old girl. She just steps out of a vat and there she is. An alien in a human suit. You can't wish your soul to be something it isn't.

She's a monster, she can learn to mimic humans but she's still a monster.

My example is why Rei will always be a monster. She cannot change what she is. She is a skin suit for an alien to wear. And that's it. Whatever she thinks, whatever she feels, she is just a skin suit monster

I don’t see how anyone here could deny it at this point, as 3.33 only doubled down on everything here, and the last film even went so far as to say her feelings for Shinji were implanted.

Anyone want to try?

Double post merged - BernardoCairo

[BernardoCairo]

Who even is this person you quoted? Does their opinion matter that much? I think they didn't understand anything. Rei is never portrayed as a monster, none of the angels are. You could argue that Kaworu played the role of "monster of the week" in episode 24, but his character is more complex than just being a "monster" too. Is Asuka a monster in NTE as well then?
Besides, The End of Evangelion made a big point out of humanity being the 18th angel. Therefore, the distinction between angel and human is not so clear-cut.

[LightDragonman]

I guess it all ties back to the whole anti-escapism theme that the series is focused on. Rei being an artificial creation that is made partly from Lilith and partly from Yui is a part of that.

Given how one of the messages is that you have be willing to open yourself up to real relationships, even if they hurt, Shinji deciding to save Rei, who is meant as a symbol for escapism and who isn’t even human, killed billions because Shinji is choosing a comfortable falsehood, picking a 2D waifu over a 3D woman.

As for her being portrayed as a monster, it all comes back to her origins. Regardless of how much she shows in terms of emotions, she’ll always be an artificial creation, a skin suit for Lilith, never able to truly live like a human does.

The poster even clarified further.

It doesn't matter how she feels. She is still a monster.

That is what Rei fans don't understand. Rei is always the bad choice because she's a rejection of humanity. The same way Kaworu is a bad choice. They are monsters wearing human skin. They can charm you, they can seduce you, they can fall in love with you but they're still monsters. Kaworu kills himself realizing what he is and what he could do. You're supposed to look at Kaworu and see his reflection in Rei. No matter what he does for Shinji or what connections they have. He's still an angel. Rei is still Lilith wearing Yui's skin. A hive mind creature with multiple bodies. She is no more human than the Evas or the dummy plugs.

---

Having been looking through the thread about the recent Asuka shirt, and learning about how Anno sees it as sort of being the “fourth ending”, only adds to my suspicions that he hates Rei. He’d never make something like this to give her character some sort of closure like he did for Asuka.

When you add that with the fact that he was never satisfied with how the first two Rebuild films turned out, which were more focused on Rei, it really affirms my belief that Anno hates Rei, those who like her, and only sees her as a symbol for his hated form of escapism.

I don’t know how you guys can really say otherwise.

So no more replies? I guess Rei really is just a monster that deserved to die at the end of the second film in order to enforce the whole anti-escapism theme, as saving her meant choosing escapism all along.

When combined with how the recent Asuka short was seen by Anno as the “fourth ending”, I think it’s obvious who Anno loves and sees as choosing reality, and who he hates and sees as choosing escapism.

Guess you can’t really refute all that.

Triple post merged. Use the edit buttom to add next time - JoelcrNeto

[BernardoCairo]

Let's avoid double and triple posts from now on.

I don't think there's much more to say. You're inflexible in your position, and most people here disagree with you. So, what's the point of debating?

Your argument is all over the place. You said that Anno loves Asuka and Kaworu, but at the same time you said that Kaworu is a monster, just like Rei. That doesn't add up. Kaworu was indeed created as a kind of escapist symbol in the original series. But even so, there's much more to his character.
Having a favorite character is perfectly normal. All writers and creators have them. That doesn't mean he hates the other character and, especially, their fans. Do you really think he would go so far as to hate real people who consume his products? Honestly, I don't think he cares that much.

[LightDragonman]

I was quoting someone else who said that Kaworu and Rei were monsters.

And I thought that one of the reasons for the story of Evangelion turning out the way it did was in part due to Anno’s disappointment and disillusionment with the otaku lifestyle. Hence why he dislikes Rei and those that don’t consider her creepy.

I’d love to believe otherwise. But it’s just that, having been slapped in the face with how 3.33 portrayed Shinji as having made a mistake in saving Rei, and now the new short, I simply find it hard to think otherwise. Hence why I want to hear other peoples reasons for not thinking that.

[BernardoCairo]

I took the time to merge all your double posts. Therefore, I will reiterate: from now on, double posts will not be allowed. We have received complaints from other users saying that this thread was turning into a space for venting. We don't want that to happen, otherwise the thread will have to be locked for a while

I’d love to believe otherwise. But it’s just that, having been slapped in the face with how 3.33 portrayed Shinji as having made a mistake in saving Rei, and now the new short, I simply find it hard to think otherwise. Hence why I want to hear other peoples reasons for not thinking that.

You heard what other people had to say. You simply don't agree with them. They shared their points of view here.
Have you considered that the fact that Shinji destroyed the world with his actions might be absurd on purpose? It's art, not real people. Maybe Anno just wanted to explore the concept to the fullest. He's done that many times before, usually pushing his characters to the limit (EOE).

[LightDragonman]

Understood. I’ll stop double posting from now on here.

With that said:

Have you considered that the fact that Shinji destroyed the world with his actions might be absurd on purpose? It's art, not real people. Maybe Anno just wanted to explore the concept to the fullest. He's done that many times before, usually pushing his characters to the limit (EOE)

If that’s the case, then why make it so that saving Rei led to the deaths of billions of people, thus framing the decision he made at the end of the second film as a mistake, and that he should’ve just killed her along with Zeruel?

When combined with the meta-commentary on escapism that the series is most well-known for, how Anno has expressed his lack of interest in Rei, and now, the fact that he was at least willing to give the fans of Asuka something they’ve been craving, showing her relationship with Shinji as entirely positive compared to the one he has with Rei, what other conclusion can I come to other than that Anno has nothing but contempt for Rei and her fanbase?

[Kendrix]

You keep asserting these things as if they're "settled science" & then coming back to them as circular logic whenever people bring up counter-evidence or different arguments/viewponts like a broken record.

It's like you're baiting people to try changing your mind but then pulling out the football before them Lucy & Charlie brown style.

Plus you are upset & angry at the "facts" that you keep defending despite feeling personally wronged by them.

Do you realize how this makes you exhausting & unrewarding to have discussions with?

Take a moment to step back & ask yourself why you're doing this. Like what is the psychological need underneath?

Why are you so invested in the idea that Anno "hates Rei" & is basically ruining his life's work in a deeply unprofessional manner solely to invalidate & hurt some rando he's never met?

[LightDragonman]

All the counter arguments I’ve seen here fail to take into account the meta-commentary and anti-escapism themes that the series is well known for. That, and the decision to make Shinji saving Rei cause billions of people dead, which again, is not something that can really be seen as anything other than the worst kind of atrocity, unexpected outcome or not.

I want to hear someone try to refute the meta-commentary and themes, which I haven’t heard of. When combined with the recent Asuka short, which he did for the 30th anniversary and not for any other character, along with showing said relationship she has with Shinji in a positive light, compared to how he showed the one he has with Rei, that really doesn’t do much to change my mind.

Given his indifference towards Rei based on interviews where he said he doesn’t care as much about her as the other characters, meta-commentary is the only way I can describe how he treated her and her relationship with Shinji as being a horrific thing leading to the deaths of billions.

[BernardoCairo]

I personally think the anti-escapism theme is more prevalent in Q than it is in HA. Shinji causing the N3I wasn’t really a consequence of him trying to escape reality. The real problem begins when he wakes up and refuses to take responsibility for what happened. It all culminates in him pulling out the spears, even though Asuka and Kaworu (two of his closest friends) explicitly tell him not to. That’s him trying to evade reality and hoping everything will magically go back to normal.
I’d also add that Evangelion isn’t just about escapism. That’s definitely one of its core themes, but there’s a lot more going on than just that.

[LightDragonman]

But then why reframe Shinji’s decision to save Rei as being the worst thing he could’ve done, leading to the death of billions, while framing it as him just retreating into escapism while the rest of the world burns?

And while escapism is one of the themes, it is the one that 3.33 seems to have gone out of its way to frame the actions of the previous film as, alongside it strongly condemning them.

So remember, if you are like Rei and are in situation where someone can save you from your lowest moment, you don’t deserve that. You should just die, as being saved means just dragging that person into an escapist fantasy at the cost of everyone else. Basically, you are giving your savior the blue pill as opposed to the red pill.