Eva or Bebop: If You had To Choose

[brandneweyes]

Assuming you've watched both series, and were given a choice of re-watching only one, what do you pick. That's not to say you're limited to the two, but rather between the two. Though by choosing one, you'd lose the other, lowering your options, but that's unimportant. I've said this before: within Japanese animation, Eva's presentation is unmatched, though with regard to episode titles, Bebop is no less memorable. E.g. One More Final: I Need You, Both of You: Dance Like You Want to Win, A Human Work, ect. None read like ANIME (Bebop included), but instead expressions, which is a positive, considering the negative stereotypes associated with Japanese animation (and rightfully so). E.g. Body Pillow, anime girl figurines. I mean, I have an F-18 & F-86 die-cast model. Another stark contrast between the two (titles notwithstanding) is the fact that one's completely organic (Eva), while the other makes use of low-resolution graphics, which stick out like a sore thumb, unlike Macross Plus, whose can be enjoyed a couple decades later.

Music (Eva) goes without saying. Admittedly I'm biased, as I'm not a fan of the Jazz bits, or rather they've no appeal; love the individual instruments that make up a track, e.g. Saxophone. Said instrument in-particular adds wonderful feeling to music when used in song Never Tear Us Apart for example. But Bad Dog, No Biscuits, Rush... ehh, suppose if I were in an elevator.

Eva at its best matches anything in bebop, e.g. THE splitting of the breast, or for that matter other animations, both Japan & West. However, I think it's accurate in describing Bebop as having fewer low-points than that of Eva. Vehicles (Bebop) when compared to Evangelions, always look clean and polished, whereas an Eva's illustration can appear crude, and in-precise, and whose upper-body proportion (chest) can look off when compared to its lower body & arms. Bebop also scales nicely with pilot out-of cockpit, standing in-view of their ship.

In retrospect, I appreciate the original's ending (Eva), and hold its Renewal (Kiba 1008) with the same reverence as I do movie (Kiba 1009/10). Still, whereas Eva treats its finale like it were an earlier episode, Bebop gives you the full affect. Bummer too, because what could have been. That is to say: Cruel Angel Thesis and the non-lyrical renditions heard playing in-background whilst Shinji speaks- that should have continued onward like bebop's Blue.

Having the Japanese Renewal editions (DVD) of both Eva & Bebop, Kiba 1001-1010 & BCBA-3195 respectively, it's a sophie's choice kind of thing lol. Bebop is great, but it doesn't have the organic cityscapes of Tokyo-3 or Nerve's Geofront, or Misato's red jacket, the former of which whose precision & detail match Akia's Neo-Tokyo. A fun discussion within fandom.

[kuribo-04]

Unless my Asuka figurines comes alive one day and attack me like it's Me! Me! Me! I don't see what's wrong with them.

SPOILER: Show

NGE for me btw. Zero doubt. Bebop is great but it's not in the same ballpark for me.

[ErgoProxy]

Bebop's final fight from Knocking to the Heavens Door is absolute trump. But so is the sound of Lance of Longinus coming back from the Moon, through all those winds and clouds, and whatnot. Read: both series have their perks, and they complement each other surprisingly well. A collab of the studios would be an absolute skating Gojira.

That said, Bebop is too melancholic for me. I like melancholy, but this piece of art is... oversaturated? It reeks of sadness; it does the thing very well and almost too well. It's on the verge of being unwatchable at times, because it utterly destroys so many characters with no hope for them and knowing that in their last moments.

On the other hand, Eva feels like home. There's a difference between loneliness and solitude, and frankly, I didn't feel, not even once, the worse of those two during the whole series. Like, some people are born to embrace being lonely. Why is that even a thing for an average Joe/Takeshi? To quote Kaworu, I do not understand.

[brandneweyes]

Bebop's final fight from Knocking to the Heavens Door is absolute trump. But so is the sound of Lance of Longinus coming back from the Moon, through all those winds and clouds, and whatnot.

At the risk of looking like an idiot, can you elaborate? I'm aware of the movie, Cowboy Bebop: The Movie. I admittedly have a negative view of the film. Lol. Wikipedia gives me a title of Cowboy Bebop: Knockin' on Heaven's Door.

Eva's style of sound is comparatively more enduring at least. Though I should clarify: I'm only referring to the Overtly Jazz tracks (Lolol); Space Lion's finale & Vicious & Gren's confrontation (dub) are incredible; I LOOKED UPPED TO YOU. I BELIEVEEEDED IN YOU.

I can't say Bebop (or any animation for that matter) induces feelings of depression, or forces me to stop watching, plus, and this is an in favor of for Bebop. Like other titles, the cast isn't 3 14 year old kids, which ironically stands in contrast to my earlier statement praising their three personalities.

[brandneweyes]

Unless my Asuka figurines comes alive one day and attack me like it's Me! Me! Me! I don't see what's wrong with them.

SPOILER: Show

NGE for me btw. Zero doubt. Bebop is great but it's not in the same ballpark for me.

I want to say Eva too. Because of presentation, style (Misato's jacket), & landscape, Eva possesses a particular feeling Bebop simply doesn't have, despite the latter's animation.

[ErgoProxy]

At the risk of looking like an idiot, can you elaborate? I'm aware of the movie, Cowboy Bebop: The Movie. I admittedly have a negative view of the film. Lol. Wikipedia gives me a title of Cowboy Bebop: Knockin' on Heaven's Door.

Yeah, Cowboy Bebop: The Movie aka Knockin' on Heaven's Door. Sorry for garbled communications; I only watched Bebop some decade ago and I don't remember everything with details.

...except THAT fight. Fluid motions of two dancers plus camera work. Glorious.

But what's wrong with the film?

Eva's style of sound is comparatively more enduring at least. Though I should clarify: I'm only referring to the Overtly Jazz tracks (Lolol); Space Lion's finale & Vicious & Gren's confrontation (dub) are incredible; I LOOKED UPPED TO YOU. I BELIEVEEEDED IN YOU.

IT ALL GOES TUMBLING DOWN, TUMBLING DOWN... Few years ago I pointed some guy on a web forum to that piece. I told him: this is an optimistic song about suicide. He thanked me afterwards, saying it made the Xmas for him and his whole family.

But in my opinion it's the ambient sounds where Eva really shows its claws and fangs, to bite you hard. Animation is just what it is; I mean - an animated world will always look fictional. It's the sound which can make it feel real, and Eva (especially EoE) ambient is doing exactly that.

I can't say Bebop (or any animation for that matter) induces feelings of depression, or forces me to stop watching, plus, and this is an in favor of for Bebop. Like other titles, the cast isn't 3 14 year old kids, which ironically stands in contrast to my earlier statement praising their three personalities.

Depression is yet another beast. Bebop is just sad, like when you lose someone close to you once and for good (eg. Jupiter Jazz). In a way, it's Tolkien distilled.

I don't mind the kids, I was one years ago. But since kids love to imagine themselves as heroes from the mecha animes, let's show them how it would look like, if it was for real - hoping they'll grow up and stop chasing the horrors they cannot grasp. I'm right, right?

[brandneweyes]

I'd argue it took away from the original. I asked myself two questions, which were 1: Didn't Spike die? And 2. Didn't Ed leave? I can't name a source, because it's barely a memory, the explanation being the events portrayed in the film happened off-screen in the series, despite there being no mention, and of course no showing of them. He essentially turned his own work into a piece of fan fiction. The Swordfish animation is spectacular, and people look good, but due to the series's perfect finale, good looks aside, in the words of Bueller: "It's Over. Go home."

Yeah. The setting of Eva lends itself nicely to such sounds. I think a reason for Eva's FEEL, is the fact that setting takes place in the 2000s, inside a modern city. Now of course the detail & precision is nothing short of grand, and speaks to your point about the two series complimenting one another. Whereas Bebop gives you on-going action, Eva's Renewal will draw your attention to its hyper-realized city, whose precision & detail match Akira's Tokyo-3.

I can't take Japanese animation seriously (animation that's spoken in Japanese at least), the way a child would a movie that causes tears, due to caricatures, but I can understand what you mean. And speaking of Jupiter Jazz: Yeah. Bebop has Jupiter Jazz, which is as valuable as EoE.

The kid aspect is just wishful thinking watching as an adult.

[BernardoCairo]

As a big fan of both series, I would still go with Evangelion. The reason being that its characters are more fully realized and the story delves deeper into its own themes. I can pinpoint everything I love and hate about each of them. They look very real and I think this adds to the story and makes it more memorable.
Both series have great OSTs too, although I like EVA's a bit more. The animation of Bebop is better and its visual style is very memorable. The movie is great too, the ending is very beautiful. But I still prefer EOE. Actually, EOE may as well just be what breaks the tie.

[brandneweyes]

As a big fan of both series, I would still go with Evangelion. The reason being that its characters are more fully realized and the story delves deeper into its own themes. I can pinpoint everything I love and hate about each of them. They look very real and I think this adds to the story and makes it more memorable.
Both series have great OSTs too, although I like EVA's a bit more. The animation of Bebop is better and its visual style is very memorable. The movie is great too, the ending is very beautiful. But I still prefer EOE. Actually, EOE may as well just be what breaks the tie.

Bebop's cast is great, but it doesn't have the same strong dynamic, since there's little interaction between the group. Ed is absolutely Spongebob, in that she appears to be completely indifferent to the chaotic effects her actions have on the people around her. I really wanted her to die. Lol. Julia's death was dumb, but an unshocking one for a Japanese animation; SURVIVES A GUN BATTLE, ONLY TO DIE LIKE A DEER.

[BernardoCairo]

I agree. I'm no way saying that Bebop's cast is weak. They're all great. Spike and Faye are particularly fun and iconic. Their backstories are just way too great. But all the others are awesome as well. I love the fridge episode because of their dynamics. It's funny as all hell!

[Axx°N N.]

I'm not sure I get the comparison--is it just that they're both famous? They both have completely different artistic goals; Bebop is far more anchored in traditional story and character approaches. I think a better comparison from the same scriptwriter as Bebop would actually be Wolf's Rain, because it's also a mid- and post-apocalyptic story and it gets heavily bleak and surreal as it goes, particularly at the end. You could even say it shares the honor of having a troubled (but maybe, ultimately, why it's so good) production history. The studio was affected by an epidemic outbreak. There's a moment in the series where the quality, and the sense of purpose, shoot up in an instant owing to the wrecking ball effect this had and the hiatus it mandated. Notoriously, there are four recap episodes in a row at this time, but then the first episode after staff resume in earnest is almost like out of a different series, and everything strengthens dramatically.

I'd pick Eva over all three, but for anyone who hasn't seen Wolf's Rain, I think it's a no-brainer that it would be up an Eva fan's alley. It's one of very few anime to have touched me on a deep level.

[brandneweyes]

I'm not sure I get the comparison--is it just that they're both famous?

I'd say they're two of the most significant pieces of animation to come out of Japan is all. And is why I picked the two series. Though you could pick other animations of course, e.g. Valley or Mononoke, Perfect Blue or Millennium Actress. Not meant to be a comparison between the two in that sense, but more, IF YOU HAD TO CHOOSE. E.g. If you had to choose, between Rock & Classical, what genre of music do you prefer. Haven't seen Wolf's Rain, so I can't comment.

[FelipeFritschF]

I have something of a strange relationship with Bebop, I couldn't get into it and dropped the series midway, even though I could recognize its quality. As I recall I was in something of a bad mood and too busy at the time. Will give it a watch again... someday...

Meanwhile Eva resonated (way too much) with me when I watched it in high school, it was a bad year for me for several reasons but somehow Eva clicked with that moment in my life.

[brandneweyes]

I have something of a strange relationship with Bebop, I couldn't get into it and dropped the series midway, even though I could recognize its quality. As I recall I was in something of a bad mood and too busy at the time. Will give it a watch again... someday...

Meanwhile Eva resonated (way too much) with me when I watched it in high school, it was a bad year for me for several reasons but somehow Eva clicked with that moment in my life.

Shame we never were given a dub like Bebop (Eva), despite Misato & Gendo's speaking that can be enjoyed without sounding caricature (at least significantly less so when compared to other titles). Spike & Faye are fun too, despite there being a great English alternative. Fortunately as a fan, I've never needed an ESCAPE lets say (my word choice, not yours) due to the happenings in my life. So animation, t.v., movies, ect. are all things of appreciation for me. Sympathy for those that need an escape though (again, my word choice; do not want to put words into your mouth), however little weight that carries.

[Mr. Tines]

Back around the turn of the century, the local art-house cinema had a short season of anime films, which was my introduction to Ghibli, and, as it happens, Bebop. I found that movie unremarkable; my main memory being of the uncomfortable tittering in the audience when the track Touch the Sky started playing over some action scene. Scanning the manga, it didn't inspire, and the OP track Tank, so often lauded, sounded just like any 70s/80s actioner TV series theme music. So it rested.

A little while down the line, Eva came with the recommendation that if you only watch one giant robot series, make it that one. So I did, and it just clicked - Asuka, especially, hitting too close to teenage me. The results, you can see around you.

A while back, I did start Bebop, but the first episode came over so much as the wannabe American TV show that the OP track was promising that I just wasn't interested.

[brandneweyes]

Back around the turn of the century, the local art-house cinema had a short season of anime films, which was my introduction to Ghibli, and, as it happens, Bebop. I found that movie unremarkable;

Yeah. Bebop's movie is completely forgettable, and carrys nowhere near the weight of EoE. I view the movie the same way I do the Disney live-action: same names and characters, but shells of the original. Have to disagree with you on Tank though, as it does a great job presenting the series. I (probably) wouldn't listen to the song outside of watching Bebop mind you, simply because I don't find the style appealing, but intro is a hit, hyperbolic praise aside.

[Axx°N N.]

I found that movie unremarkable... Scanning the manga, it didn't inspire, and the OP track Tank, so often lauded, sounded just like any 70s/80s actioner TV series theme music. So it rested.

...

A while back, I did start Bebop, but the first episode came over so much as the wannabe American TV show that the OP track was promising that I just wasn't interested.

I've returned to the movie several times with the attitude of "maybe this time it will land for me" and it hasn't so far. I always find it bizarre when I'm reminded that it was produced after the series, because while it's OK if you take it in as a random expanded episode with higher budget, it feels completely wrong that it was deemed necessary to exist following the finale.

I've also never been very fond of the first episode; in fact, while I can see arguments for it being an effective first episode, I feel it doesn't sell the show well at all, and so fails completely in terms of what a pilot episode should provide. It's not a bad episode, but it's pretty much the only episode of its kind for the rest of the duration.

As for Tank, I think it should be taken in exactly as any 70s/80s intro, that's the intent. That it's been so lauded is more a reflection of many anime fans not having cultural context and not recognizing things as reference points, and instead assuming it as original. There's a lack of comparison. I like Tank, but I prefer the rest of the soundtrack in spades.

Overall, Bebop has some structural flaws for me. It's a generally good show, but it's worthwhile for a dozen or so stellar episodes, and its back half in particular is enough to make up for it all.

Also, I've never heard anyone ever mention the manga, I sometimes forget they exist. They're just one of those manga that exist because everything has to have one. The anime has notable crew on every front, the manga were both drawn by virtual nobodies.

Not trying to convince you and I'm not the hugest Bebop fan. Just saying that as someone who ended up finding Bebop to have merit, I don't disagree with anything you said.

EDIT: spelling

[brandneweyes]

"Overall, Bebop has some structural flaws for me. It's a generally good show, but it's worthwhile for a dozen or so stellar episodes, and its back half in particular is enough to make up for it all."

I wish Julia's incorporation was better. Instead of a silly death, would've been cool to see her at the end fighting with Spike towards his final confrontation with Vicious. Also, and this is me completely speaking out loud, EoE ends in the same fashion as the series, albeit a different mood, in that neither feature a specialized outro. Lol. It's actually rather humorous; like someone correcting a mistake, but overlooking others. As I said though, in retrospect, I've changed (t.v.). Bebop t.v. however gives you TWO fantastic finales, the other, FINALE, being Space Lion.

[Axx°N N.]

I wish Julia's incorporation was better. Instead of a completely silly death, would've been cool to see her at the end fighting with Spike towards his final confrontation with Vicious.

I totally agree. I think it's tricky to keep a character mute, off-screen, only in flashbacks, etc., and then figure out how to make them substantial enough once they're swept back into the narrative. Yui is another case, except I'm a fan of how EoE made her such a weird, almost esoteric character. I love her and Fuyutsuki's dialogue with each other. Rebuild, though, I get the same feeling as I do with Julia in Bebop. They're non-entities, and I feel not enough was done to make them more human as opposed to a plot device used to spark some other actual character's motivations & reactions.

[brandneweyes]

On the other hand, Eva feels like home.

Apologies for not acknowledging that point, but yeah, that; it's a combination of other factors that brings it about.