I finally understand Shin Evangelion 3+1 ending and why Asuka is (NOT) on the train platform

[Weird_ocean]

One thing about the ending of Shin Evangelion I could never understand: if what we see is happening in the Minus-space, why is character strongly resembling Asuka is sitting in the train station, near Kaworu and Rei, when Asuka was ejected from the minus space in her pod? And if it is in fact Asuka, why Mari and Shinji run away from the train station, not acknowledging her presence?

I think I finally found the answer.

When Asuka turned into angel, her original’s soul pulled her out of EVA 02, and transferred her soul into EVA 13, preventing her from dying from her chocker. It means that both Asuka’s soul and Asuka’s original soul were placed inside EVA 13 from that moment. When EVA 13 entered the Minus-space, both Asuka's soul, and her original's soul ended up in the Minus-space. I always wondered what happened to the soul of Asuka's original.

For those who don’t know, Asuka’s original is the DNA donor of the Shikinami series clones. Her soul was a part of EVA 13 or EVA 02 interface.

SPOILER: Show

So, when Asuka was ejected from the Minus-space, her original’s soul stayed in EVA 13. When EVA 13 was destroyed it freed the soul of Asuka’s original.

SPOILER: Show

That’s why we see a person strongly resembling Asuka, but never get a close up of her, and that’s why Mari and Shinji do not acknowledge her presence: because it’s not Asuka, it’s the soul of Asuka’s original, who is ready to move to some place else from the Minus-space, just like souls of Rei and Kaworu. And Mari and Shinji run in the opposite direction, because they will return to the real world.

SPOILER: Show

I never even once saw people talking about this theory, but to me that explains everything perfectly. Now I’m convinced that Mari and Shinji returning into the real world after the train station scene, that happens in the Minus-space. That was the last piece of the puzzle I needed to understand the ending. I feel a little better now.

[Konja7]

This is a pretty good theory. I think Asuka original being in the train station would be a reasonable explanation. Honestly, I've also had this theory.

That said, I should mention the script for the train platform scene mentions Rei and Kaworu, but not Asuka. That makes me think the redhead woman was just a random passenger (as other characters in the train station). It would explain why the scene never focus on her.

Maybe the redhead woman ressembling Asuka was just a reference from the animators.

[Weird_ocean]

That said, I should mention the script for the train platform scene mentions Rei and Kaworu, but not Asuka. That makes me think the redhead woman was just a random passenger (as other characters in the train station). It would explain why the scene never focus on her.

Maybe the redhead woman ressembling Asuka was just a reference from the animators.

Well, it's obvious why there is no mention of Asuka in the script, because it's not Asuka. Then again, not everything that is shown on the screen is mentioned in the script. If we look closely, that person VERY much looks like Asuka, same hair-color, hair-style and red phone and backpack. Red phone is another key that this is not Asuka, because Asuka had a game console that is white. So if she looks like Asuka, but not actually Asuka, that person could only be a perfect genetic copy of Asuka: her original's soul.

I think what's going on here is two layers of storytelling:

1st Layer is the actual story. Shinji is in the Minus-space, souls of Kaworu, Rei and Asuka's original are ready to go to the next journey, away from Shinji. To the place without Evangelions and all that noise.

2nd Layer, is a metaphor, an allegory. Hideaki Anno and the audience saying goodbye to these characters. That's why they needed to place someone that looks like Asuka on the platform. Rei and Kaworu's souls are actually there, but Asuka is just a symbol of Asuka, but not actually Asuka, but her original's soul. That's why we don't get the close up of her. Shinji is Anno, as we know, and in that scene he says goodbye to these characters. Old train cart goes in one direction, and Shinji and Mari run in the opposite direction. We never see Kaworu, Rei and Asuka's original going inside the train cart, but the metaphor is pretty obvious, because of how camera follows the old train cart, before ending on the panoramic view of the city. So it is clear to me why they needed to do such trickery. I got to say, I could not figure that one out for a long time. But it's so simple and on the surface that I feel like an idiot now. Damn you, Evangelion!

[Allansfirebird]

If we look closely, that person VERY much looks like Asuka, same hair-color, hair-style and red phone and backpack. Red phone is another key that this is not Asuka, because Asuka had a game console that is white. So if she looks like Asuka, but not actually Asuka, that person could only be a perfect genetic copy of Asuka: her original's soul.

Didn't Shikinami have a red flip phone in Eva 2.0?

[Weird_ocean]

Didn't Shikinami have a red flip phone in Eva 2.0?

Nope, she had a silver, or a white phone.

[kuribo-04]

I think if she looks like Asuka that's what that film wants us to register her as. She is another character that has grown up and can live a normal life.
The Groundworks back has the genga showing her call her Asuka too IIRC.

[Weird_ocean]

I think if she looks like Asuka that's what that film wants us to register her as. She is another character that has grown up and can live a normal life.
The Groundworks back has the genga showing her call her Asuka too IIRC.

If it was Asuka, they would at least come and say "Hi." Don't you think? That's really out of character for them. And we know Asuka ended up in Village 3 in her pod. What you're saying goes against movie's logic.

If she is Asuka's Original, she can symbolize Asuka, and not be Asuka at the same time, there is not contradiction.

[AuraTwilight]

I can't see Asuka saying Hi or Rei or Kaworu didn't. Especially since she and Shinji already had this huge cathartic denouement conversation.

[Weird_ocean]

I can't see Asuka saying Hi or Rei or Kaworu didn't. Especially since she and Shinji already had this huge cathartic denouement conversation.

You need to separate what's actually is happening on the screen and the symbolism of it. Yeah, it's the good bye for Anno and the audience to these characters, that's why they all standing on the platform waiting for the train. And because Rei, Kaworu and Asuka's Originals decided not to return to the real world, they don't interact on the train station. That's what they were talking about with Shinji where he said "You can find home someplace else." Shinji said goodbye to Asuka and the rest, because he was going to kill himself, but his mom saved him, that's why he can return back to the real world. And as he was sitting on the beach, disappearing into nothing, he was clearly not happy that he was left alone. His face was sad more than anything. Or emotionless, but clearly not happy. But Mari snapped him out this state. It's the repeating message of the movie that you can't save yourself and need other people.

It is confusing, but it makes sense in both the lore sense and the metaphor sense. It ties everything with this ending perfectly. As much as it is possible for the Rebuilds.

[Konja7]

I think if she looks like Asuka that's what that film wants us to register her as. She is another character that has grown up and can live a normal life.
The Groundworks back has the genga showing her call her Asuka too IIRC.

I don't think the Groundwork mentioned Asuka in that scene.

I've read the script for that Train Station scene but Asuka's name isn't mentioned (Rei and Kaworu are mentioned).

[Konja7]

This is the Groundwork for the Train Station scene:



As we can see, the design for the redhead woman doesn't even appear in the Groundwork.

Honestly, this just convince me more than the redhead woman was a last minute addition, since the designs for the two female students and the salaryman appear in this Groundwork.

[Weird_ocean]

As we can see, the design for the redhead woman doesn't even appear in the Groundwork.
I don't think the Groundwork mentioned Asuka in that scene.
Honestly, this just convince me more than the redhead woman was a last minute addition, since the designs for the two female students and the salaryman appear in this Groundwork.

That's what I've been saying from the beginning, it never mentions Asuka, because it's not Asuka. But it's the person that looks exactly like Asuka. I'm not going to repeat myself.

Yes, they added her at the last moment to confuse the audience and make ending misleading. Just like ending of EOE is misleading, and many other things in Evangelion. Anno loves to do shit like that.

TL;DR
Symbolism: goodbye from Anno to all the characters. "Asuka" is there for that reason.

Lore: Soul of Asuka's original is on the platform, to go to her next destination, just like Kaworu and Rei, and Shinji returns to Village 3 after credit's roll.

I can't see it in any other way.

[kuribo-04]

bros


And this is besides the point anyway imo.
It being Asuka is the obvious reading. And there's nothing contradicting it imo.

[Weird_ocean]

bros

And this is besides the point anyway imo.
It being Asuka is the obvious reading. And there's nothing contradicting it imo.

That was a direction for animators, if you want someone to be drawn that looks exactly like Asuka, but not reveal the mystery of the ending, that's what I would do too. Just like with Kensuke and Asuka in instrumentality, when the direction was that they are "parent and a child" does not mean they are literally a father and a daughter. You need to consider how animation is made, it makes it easier for everybody who works on this movie, to just say it's Asuka, because there will be no additional questions or complications.

But when you have two characters in the movie that look absolutely identical, and both look like Asuka, of course you will write "Asuka" as a direction. Especially if it doesn't matter for the context of the scene. But that doesn't mean that this is Shikinami.

[Axx°N N.]

That was a direction for animators, if you want someone to be drawn that looks exactly like Asuka, but not reveal the mystery of the ending, that's what I would do too. Just like with Kensuke and Asuka in instrumentality, when the direction was that they are "parent and a child" does not mean they are literally a father and a daughter. You need to consider how animation is made, it makes it easier for everybody who works on this movie, to just say it's Asuka, because there will be no additional questions or complications.

But when you have two characters in the movie that look absolutely identical, and both look like Asuka, of course you will write "Asuka" as a direction. Especially if it doesn't matter for the context of the scene. But that doesn't mean that this is Shikinami.

This is giving me "the date the pastor promised the world would end came and went but here's why he was still right" energy.

[Weird_ocean]

This is giving me "the date the pastor promised the world would end came and went but here's why he was still right" energy.

You know the End of Evangelion script? In the extended script there was a scene with Shinji in the sandbox and it said:

Code: Select all

A young Shinji and a girl making a sand castle (in the shape of a pyramid?). (Make her a young Asuka?)

Girl: Shall we try our best to finish it?
Girl: [It'll be] a splendid castle.

Young Shinji: Yeah!
Young Shinji is full of high spirits.

The mother of the girl stands at the park entrance. (Make her look like Yui, or Misato?)

When you make directions for animators, you make it so that they would understand you. For that, you need to use a reference that they are familiar with, for them to put an image that you want on paper. So is it, Misato or Yui? From the story perspective it doesn't make sense, because it can only look like one person. Is it really Asuka, or she just supposed to look like Asuka? It doesn't matter, because...

reference for animators in the script does not tell a story, it is there to create an image, and this image can mean different things. Depending on how you manipulate it. The real story is only in director's and writers heads. That's the main difference between movies and animation. In animation, Anno can not tell what the actual story is to anyone, and still tell it. And we never get the focus on Asuka. Is that a coincidence?

I look at the movie, and try to make sense of it. And my logic is, in my opinion, impenetrable.

Pease explain to me how is this possible any other way? If you can answer all these questions reasonably, I will be grateful.

1. Why Mari and Shinji just run past Asuka, Rei, and Kaworu despite being their friends? Especially Mari. They would never do that. Even if it was a timeskip, they would still come and say hi. You know, Mari who sniffs and hugs people every time she sees them? She would shove those big boobs right into Asuka's face.

2. How can this be a new world if all evangelions are gone and the last spear was exhausted? Shinji has no power to create a new universe that we know of. It was never mentioned in the movie. All spears were exhausted and all evangelions destroyed, no more magic tricks.

3. How could Shinji rewrite the world, when he said he will not do it? The last option is that the current world is reset and all people in it do not have any memories about what has happened. But that contradicts what Shinji has said about what he's about to do: delete evangelions from existence, and remove all the red shit. That's it. And we see, world restored, seas are blue, penguins are alive, Wille returned, and seeds are flying in space. This world was not rewritten or rewind, it's the same world, otherwise, why all these things were shown to us?

In my opinion, the only reasonable explanation is that it's the Minus-sapce, and Asuka's original is on the train station, and Shinji is about to come back. And Mari promised that She will get Shinji back. In Shin Evangelion, Mari did everything she said she would do in the beginning of the movie. Don't see any reason why she would fail at the end.

[Axx°N N.]

In animation, Anno can not tell what the actual story is to anyone, and still tell it.

First, I disagree with this to a huge degree. To me, the main difference is more technical: film is captured movement, animation is the suggestion of movement. What you said here is true of many, many films. David Lynch, for instance, clearly knows more than what he lets on to actors or collaborators, and it's not a unique trait to him in the art film world.

Anyway, as for the point by point questions:

1) The scene uses classic (and so familiar) iconography from the first moments of the original series; the birds flying from the power lines. To me that's a pretty overt indication that Shinji is seeing something that is both there and absent; figurants, a premonition, what have you. It's not that they run past them, as the scene is structured shot by shot to mirror Rei's episode 1 disappearance. When the train passes, no one is there.

The problem with this sequence is how narrow the POV window is and the way the structure obfuscates this read. For instance, because the shot of an empty platform is zoomed in from the previous close-up of Rei and Kaworu, we have no idea if Asuka (or not-Asuka, if you want) also disappears, or is static.

2) I don't see what this has to do with Asuka's identity if the above establishes that it's more like a vision which passes.

3) See above.

I don't disagree that it's minus-space, that seems to be the unanimous read to me. I just don't see what that has to do with Asuka's identity.

The main thing for me is this: it's Shinji's POV, and regardless of Asuka's identity, what he's seeing is someone who looks exactly like Asuka. Regardless of her identity, the noteworthy thing here is in Shinji not reacting to her and thus the shot moving to a close-up on her. For whatever reason, having to do with whatever identity, Shinji doesn't focus on her like on Rei and (maybe only by association?) Kaworu. Perhaps we can read into the fact that Rei's face is turned away, but not Kaworu's. Her identity seems to me the less relevant thing than whatever character related thing is going on with Shinji.

The thing is though that if Asuka's presence was improvised, maybe the intent was little more than an easter egg. It's such a pivotal scene that I highly doubt that, but maybe the thinking was literally "it would be shafting Asuka for her not to be included here," but that not including her in the close-up introduced another whole can of worms.

[Weird_ocean]

2) I don't see what this has to do with Asuka's identity if the above establishes that it's more like a vision which passes.

3) See above.

David Lynch is so abstract and symbolic, that it might as well be animation. Haha. Anyway.

To me it's important, because they are the key charters, and I don't think key characters are just visions, but souls of actual people in Instrumentality. I never thought of instrumentality\Minus-sapce as just a weird acid-trip going on in someone's head, but where actual souls of people play some sort of role and purpose. To me Rei, Kaworu and "Asuka" and the rest of the people on this platform, are souls that decided not to return to reality. And they sort of went on their next journey. And Rei said that she will not stay in the Minus-space. And if they in fact wanted to return, again, Asuka Shikinami's presence would not make sense there, because she already returned to reality. And the old train cart moving on, when camera follows it, is the symbol of that. And Shinji and Mari running away from the platform in the opposite direction, is what makes "Asuka's" identity meaningful for me. They are running away from the old train cart. You know, THAT train cart. That was the symbol of the shutting away, and hiding inside of one's heart. You get the metaphor.

Thanks for your take.

[Konja7]

bros


And this is besides the point anyway imo.
It being Asuka is the obvious reading. And there's nothing contradicting it imo.

Thanks for the clarification. I really couldn't see her in the previous image.

So, the character is really called Asuka. I guess I would need to agree with the Original Asuka theory, since "regular" Asuka returned to Earth.

For whatever reason, having to do with whatever identity, Shinji doesn't focus on her like on Rei and (maybe only by association?) Kaworu.

The script mentions Kaworu and Rei. So, I would say Shinji is focusing on both characters.

[Axx°N N.]

The script mentions Kaworu and Rei. So, I would say Shinji is focusing on both characters.

I see! Thanks for that tidbit.