A new perspective on Shinji and Asuka's relation in NTE

[BernardoCairo]

I will start this by addressing the obvious: Shinji and Asuka's relationship is not as well developed and relevant as the original series'. This is not me trying to compare the two. It isn't about shipping either. I just want to point out some elements people usually overlook and maybe suggest an interpretation.
I want to start by pointing out how their relationship subverts the one from the original series. In NGE, Asuka starts the series not really liking Shinji, but the feeling gradually increases as they spend time together. I guess you could say it's similar to how these feelings play out in real life. But the irony is that the more she likes him, the more they grow apart and the more she pushes him away. In the movies, however, she starts to like him very quickly and even tries to compete with Rei for his attention at some point. It's a lot more artificial at a first glance, but it makes sense when you consider the environment she grew up in (competitive place, no one really cared about her as a person, etc). That being said, as the movies go on, she starts to lose interest (the complete opposite of the OG story). Of course, there wasn't proper time to develop their friendship, but this more "automatized" relationship fits well with the themes of Asuka's character. She herself is an artificial creation, learning to be her (just like Rei VI in the last film). Because of it, their first contact is sillier in nature and only gains more nuance as she develops as a person and he grows.
Even though, in HA, Asuka's feelings were presented in a way that made them look like a typical teen romance, I think it meant so much more to her. Shinji is the first in the movie to treat Asuka as a human first and a pilot second. In flashbacks we see that she was disposable in the eyes of others for most of her life. But Shinji treated her with kindness and friendship. I think it's why his bentōs meant so much to her. It was a gesture of care Shinji had for her. He conects with people via cooking (something Rei was also inspired by).
In the original series I think Asuka liked Shinji because they were very similar. But in films it's the opposite. Asuka liked Shinji because he is different from her and the others. There is a role reversal to the point where Shinji is the one who makes the final confession, something most of the audience expected Asuka to do. From his point of view, these feelings are still much more tangible (14 years ago, not that long ago from his point of view). It's a genuine gesture, unlike EOE (when Shinji did the same because he was literally going crazy, for lack of a better term). As for her part, there is always a deep desire for connection and sharing of pain. At first she sees him as a romantic partner, then as someone who needs protection, a mother. Even after he was gone, she kept thinking about him. Not in the same way, but he marked her. When she finally talks to him and tells him how she felt in the past, it's a huge step for her character, something she wouldn't have done before. And when Shinji does the same, I believe she was surprised at the idea of ​​someone else reciprocating those same feelings for her in the past. To be more precise, I think her reaction comes from the shock of knowing, not that she necessarily still likes him that way. For me, she sees him as a good memory and perhaps a what if. That old friend we all have, I guess.
There's more to it than that, especially when it comes to their origins, but I think this is the bigger picture. I don't see it as "bad" anymore.

[C.T.1290]

Well, I don’t really consider Shikinami as the real Asuka, seeing as she’s not the original one. So at that point, I think that Mari is more or less her replacement, one with a more healthier relationship.

I still see Soryu as the only real Asuka in the entire series, or this case, the whole franchise. So probably at some point in the post Third Impact world, I think that Shinji and Asuka may have time to work out their issues and maybe fix themselves in the process before maybe making amends for hurting each other. That of course is up to interpretation.

[BernardoCairo]

I don't really get why Shikinami would be a "fake Asuka". Soryu is the original character, but Shikinami is Asuka in the new movies. She is just as much Asuka as any other Asuka in any other media. Not to say she's as well written as her original counterpart, but she's an official character.

[C.T.1290]

I don't really get why Shikinami would be a "fake Asuka". Soryu is the original character, but Shikinami is Asuka in the new movies. She is just as much Asuka as any other Asuka in any other media. Not to say she's as well written as her original counterpart, but she's an official character.

Well, I guess I couldn’t really get behind that change, like Asuka being a result of a man made lab experiment instead of being a normal human being like everyone else, and how she was in the original series. But that’s just me.

[Kendrix]

I wish I could find that one article where Asuka's VA talks about how she would consider Rebuild Asuka a tsundere since she does like Shinji, while OG Asuka didn't/ the person she likes was Kaji.

Rebuild Asuka basicaly likes Shinji for the same reason that OG Asuka likes Kaji:

"The bento was good so I thought I liked you"

First person to ever be nice to her /show her care, when she had grown up starved for love (not for exactly the same reasons, but... the pilots artificiality in Rebuild basically represents a "tightening" of the predestination. The more Kaworu tried to change things, the more they were engineered to be exactly the same. ) The change serves to ensure that she is the same (hyper-competitive, feeling she has to be 'tough' & not depend on anyone etc. )

Og Asuka is, quintessentially, the person who tells Shinji "No" so he has to learn to deal with rejection (instead of snapping & strangling her & "forcing" a "fusion" via instrumentality like he does in Eoe... and even then she resists hm to the last - "I'd rather die than do it with you")

This is the moment where I once again because while the kitchen scene deconstructs & dissects Shinji's half of the problem ("anyone will do", "you just come to me cause youre scared of everyone else, your using me as a side dish"), the alt live action scene deconstruct Asuka's half of it by showing a reality where Shinji doesn't exist but Asuka's love life still sucks. Toji is interchangeable, he could be replaced by any more assertive male. They don't spend 10 mins talking about a relationship that never happened in the show proper, it's showing the same problems Asuka has in all her relationships: "You are cold hearted get attached easily, but that's just like keeping a dog. You are just ravenous toward each other & there's no warm fuzzy feelings. You are the type that deliberately causes men to misunderstan/ you're USING guys"

Though that's still in EoE proper because in the end... she plops down beside him (as in ep 9), even though she'd "rather die than do it with him" because she's lonely & scared of the dark. She's right that he's her last choice after everyone else fell away, but in ep 15 he was also her (as per "everything you've ever dreamed", "kissed you with a kiss that wasnt true/ it wasnt you at all")

ppl correctly catch that in EoE Shinji has to learn to coexist with Asuka, but that coexisting is coexisting even though she WONT give him what he wants. It's learning to accept rejection and "no". That's when the movie ends when it does, when she calls him disgustingwith a "look of contempt" in the "coldest possible voice" (per the script) because rejection is back in the world.

Rebuild then is an ironic switcheroo/ what if. What if Asuka was the one pining after him through some twist of fate, like meeting him before Kaji.


I think that in the beach scene Shinji is speaking for all versions of them (at this point he knew about the other timelines, they came up in dialogue with both Gendo & Kaworu) - sort of getting an universal closure / acknowledgement there. That's why the beach is directly made to evoke EoE. It's sort of Shinji saying what he should have said last time around.

It was established that Asuka hates others because of what she rejects in herself. Superficiality & facade in Misato, awareness of being a pawn in Rei, and most notably, emotional neediness in Shinji (EoE: "If I just look at you I wanna puke" - "because im just like you?" *footage of both crying for their mothers *, Tv ending: "you are trying to find yourself in others")
He openly shows the needs she represses in herself & sees as "not allowed" because she "cant be weak" so she loathes him for being weak.

Her arc in the last two rebuilds is kind of about recontextualizing that from the POV of an adult woman.

At first she's even more repulsed & angry that he hasn't changed while she had to live in a post apocalyptic hell. ("He's not even an idiot, but a brat")
In the final fight in Q she's even ready to kill him ("just shut up and die stupid brat!") - she wonders what she ever saw in the guy.

But in the end when he's curled into a ball and not resisting, she can't bring herself to kill him or leave him for dead. In part because she thinks dying is too good for him (as she tells Kensuke) but probably also because of some genuine lingering attachment (which Mari repeatedly teases her about)

In the early part of the final movie she starts out being gratuitously cruel to him... or perhaps rather a mix of cruelty & attachment/ "love/hate" perhaps best exemplified by the force feeding scene. She is both legitimately torturing him (force feeding is considered torture - plus its rendered very violently, she basically tells him she wishes he was never a pilot... for someone for whom piloting is their life that's like saying she wishes he was never born), but at the same time kind of saving him/keeping him alive there there. (naive ol Kensuke acknowledges the positive & thanks her. at this point he knows her well enough to see that beneath her bristly exterior)

But she gradually softens a bit, checking on him by the lake. In the end she realizes that her hated rival was just a kid ("he doesn't need a lover but a mother") - and therefore, so did Asuka herself. if its ok & forgiveable for Shinji to just be young & dumb, the same is true of Asuka's own younger self.
Softening her stance on Shinji is directly related to her plot about coming to accept her own nner child (since again she hates him because he reminds her of the needy side the suppresses) - an important step in this process is to admit to her confused, juvenile feelings, even though she knows they were confused & juvenile (she thought she liked him) - but theyre still worth acknowledging & speaking out loud. the closure makes her feel better.


In the Og both were always too guarded to show interest in the other, kind of expecting them to read their mind (EoTV: "youre just expecting others to make you happy - arent you doing the same?"), so the other always felt rejected. no one wanted to blink first, they always looked to keep themselves first.

In the beach scene, Shinji gives her validation... & it's all the more meaningful because at that point there's no chance anymore of it working out & him "gaining" anything from it. The ship's sailed. She grew up first. They're just giving validation simply to give it, to let the other know. It was a silly toxic juvenile thing but it was human, it's worth speaking & getting closure on (& judging from Asuka's visible reaction it did still mean something to her - we can recognize the sillyness of our feelings, but we still feel them.) the sillierthey are, the more bravery it takes to admit.


in the past Asuka always tried so hard to be all grownup & shit in a way that was in itself juvenile but here it's through accepting both her child self & her juvenile self that she finally becomes "unstuck" from the past & comes to truly feel like the grownup she really is (which i have to acknowledge is really kinda beautiful, even if not rly an Asuka person)

Though in the end, he's still not the one to tell her "Asuka is Asuka & that's ok" - he couldn't be. Their incompatibilities remain, and it would destroy some of the message if he got with the person of whom accepting their "no" was once a big plot point. - not even gonna open the can of whether that is to be taken as romantic or platonic because its irrelevant; Either way acceptance is acceptance. And just like Touji in the alt live action scene, Kensuke is basically interchangeable - the point is Asuka herself realizing that some ppl will stay with her & accept her. Even at her ugliest when she who once wanted to be looked at just wanted to hide away from everyone. It's about realizing that some ppl will care for her & fil her emotional needs.
That also includes Mari, who is shows caring & encouraging Asuka throughout the movie, loses her usually unflappable compuse when Asuka gets eaten, and then keeps talking at Shinji about wanting him to please save Asuka. She's also in that scene, telling Asuka to "take care of herself" (same line from ep 26) just like she showed care for Asuka throughout the movie.

But Shinji (and Misato!) couldn't be the one to do it, just like Gendo couldn't be a parent for Rei, not even in a "better world". Rei's need for a family that Gendo culd never fill is also fulfilled through an all new connection, by the Suzuhara family, Hikari, Touji & Tsubame. kaworu receives an extra helping figure in Kaji. And even now Shinji can't save everyone & has to accept Misato's loss. (which Gendo remarks upon.)

This way you don't destroy the point in the OG that Shinji couldn't have saved everyone on his own & overly blamed himself for everything bad. (but also the explicit point in ep 25 that things could have turned out differently had he been less passive) Though it makes all the sense that Shinji's happy ending/ redemption is to save at least some of his friends. What broke him in the last few episodes of the series was being unable to / feeling ill-equipped to help his various friends.

- indeed Shinji, too, needs to be saved in the end. His parents take the lance for him & Mari comes to retrieve him. (on Misato's orders)

I appreciate how they were really careful not to turn it into some easy fakeass wish fulfillment fantasy. This is also exemplified by how Shinji puts on a brave face for Rei ("dont worry, Mari will come get me...") but doesn't actually wait for Mari & goes to speak himself. And when Mari actually shows up, he's shocked. He didn't actually believe he could redeem himself (enough for WILLE to send someone to save him) until the moment the scenery changes to the train station.

I believe this is actually the exact same station where he was ditched as a kid in the famous flashback picture. Just like everyone emerged at a sentimentally significant place - Asuka at Kensuke's house, Rei (though we dont see it) no doubt popped up at the Suzuhara residence.
Shinji "getting off the train" here symbolizes that he's truly, wholly over that memory, leaving this place behind, coming from it to actual reality, seeing it perhaps clearer than ever before (art style shifting to realistic in the end as Shinji & Mari go back to reality). He stopped beng stuck in that picture of himself as a kid & the narrative he constructed around it how it meant he was worthless etc.

[Asunji_Yuko]

I wish I could find that one article where Asuka's VA talks about how she would consider Rebuild Asuka a tsundere since she does like Shinji, while OG Asuka didn't/ the person she likes was Kaji.

Two things
1. This quote was taken before the 4th Rebuild came out, Miyamura became much more supportive of Asuka/Shinji pairing since then, and
2. Miyamura isn't the writer, Anno is.

It's also obvious that OG Asuka liked Shinji when you look at the director's cut of episode 22. If Asuka didn't like Shinji and want affection from him, i.e. if he were actually interchangeable, then his perceived rejection of her advances would not have hurt her like it did.

[BernardoCairo]

It's also obvious that OG Asuka liked Shinji when you look at the director's cut of episode 22.

Yes. But it's a more real kind of "love". She likes him, but she also has a one-sided rivalry with him. And she also hates the parts of him that remind her of herself. So it's a relationship that's more reminiscent of real life (confusing, nebulous, imperfect). In NTE, they have a more "anime-like" romance going on. You know, with Asuka starting to like Shinji really quickly and with everything becoming more idealized and less grounded. So in this sense I can understand Miyamura's statement.
It's impossible to say that Asuka didn't like Shinji in any way in the original story though. Or that she actually liked Kaji.

[FelipeFritschF]

I think Asuka's character really did outgrow herself in the course of production of NGE. In the Proposal stage, Asuka did seem like Shinji's love interest, but there was no clear indication that Rei wouldn't be just as pronounced in that regard. One could be forgiven for Shinji would end up with Rei by the end of ep 6, and then Anno "forgets about Rei", and she barely does anything for a bunch of episodes, even though Rei's whole character arc in the series in just as fantastic and well developed. Tsurumaki mentioned Misato as being the actual deutaragonist in the EoE booklet interview and that was probably their initial intention. Then we have Anno taking a big liking towards Asuka over time, and I get the feeling this was so significant he ended up further developing her and givin her a larger role, especially for EoE. The DC episodes themselves are a good example of this. Before their additions, you could still make a reasonable argument that Asuka wasn't *that* into Shinji, but after the much expanded mental attack sequences? Yeah, she likes him alright. Then of course we have EoE itself.

NTE is an extension of that, of course.

(I can point out to all the specific interviews later if anyone is so interested. No time right now.)

[Weird_ocean]

I think we simply don't have enough of information about Asuka's true feelings in Shin. She has very limited exposure, and those moments are so subtle that one can basically imagine anything.

Unpopular opinion, but I think in The Minus-Sapce Asuka scene, Shinji was the one wearing Kensuke's doll, like a costume, because it was later shown at the studio with Rei scene (evangelions there were hanging off the wall, unzipped like literal costumes, as to make a tokusatsu movie, and with ships as models). I think that, because in the Minus-Space, whenever people speak to one another, it's not some visions or illusion, but actual people or their souls in the minus space. And because Kensuke could not be there, Shinji took his place, because he needed to remind Asuka about a place where she can belong. Asuka never sees Kensuke's shack in her memories, but she does see Shinji's room, and an aquarium, and that tells me that she might have been more attached to Shinji, than to Kensuke. He also says same words to Asuka in Japanese that he said to Rei Lookalike "Asuka wa Asuka da", and calls her Asuka, which Kensuke never did, he only called her Shikinami. But that's up for interpretation.

In my opinion, Shinji did it, to break their bond, to get her out of the minus space, and save her, before he could commit seppuku with a spear. And that fits theme of the movie, because no one in the Rebuilds can save themselves, there is always someone else that does it. So if Asuka would just came to realization about Kensuke on her own, that would contradict the whole message. And Shinji had to do it.

Now, to the point of Shinji and Asuka's relationships, They never were a thing in Rebuilds, and they never actually tried to connect in a meaningful way as a couple. Yes, they were romantically interested in one another (although we never really see that coming from Shinji in Rebuilds) and yes that is in the past, and they needed to close the page. But effectively they never actually dated or had proper relationships. And that is also the case in NGE. They never dated properly. And when Shinji comes back to reality, I don't see why they can't try and start with knowing each other better, and then who knows, being friends and\or lovers is a possibility. Especially now, when they left all their traumas behind them. Now they have more chance than ever, in my opinion.

I'm saying this because of people that I know in real life. I have friends who had terrible problems in relationships and were on the brink of divorce, but worked on their issues, and stayed together and are happy now.
I knew a couple who got divorced and was separated for more than a decade, but then got together again, and are now happy.

When you have problems in relationships, breaking up, and ending it all is not the only option, and sometimes not even the best one. If Shinji and Asuka in the end of Shin, left their juvenile selves in the past, and are adults in both minds and bodies, they have more in common than ever before. I'm wondering how this new Asuka and Shinji will see each other when they meet again. They will be different people in many ways, and that opens up a lot of possibilities. including Kensuke's and Shinji's rivalry over Asuka. She also might not be interested in any of them romantically at all. All I want to say is, we can imagine all of those things without a problem, because Shin leaves us enough room to do that.

[dzzthink]

From my perspective, the rebuild tells a story about a relationship that did not work out despite strong feelings between each other. It's the typical unrequited love scenario, or Romeo and Juliet where it's a doomed romance due to circumstance.

I recently found an article on how Anno was a bit of a simp for a VA (https://www.cbr.com/evangelion-hideaki- ... irst-love/). It just goes to show a type of crush that is not realistic in terms of an actual relationship.

[JFFF-7292]

There are three important differences between NGE+EoE and Rebuild regarding the A/S relationship.
1 - Shikinami is not Soryu, they have a different past, they see Shinji differently.
2 - in Rebuild, in all three films (excluding 1.11), Shinji never shows a romantic interest towards Asuka (evidently for Hideaki Anno this was not supposed to be the main theme of Rebuild, there was not enough time). So Shikinami does not have the same role as Soryu.
It is only at the end of 3.0+1.01 that it is revealed that Shinji was attracted to Asuka.
3 - the 14 year time jump that creates a partial gap between Asuka and Shinji and complicates the situation.

About Asuka:

in the final fight in Q she's even ready to kill him ("just shut up and die stupid brat!") - she wonders what she ever saw in the guy.

But in the end when he's curled into a ball and not resisting, she can't bring herself to kill him or leave him for dead. In part because she thinks dying is too good for him (as she tells Kensuke) but probably also because of some genuine lingering attachment (which Mari repeatedly teases her about)

Asuka never intended to kill Shinji.
As explained in past discussions, the phrase that Asuka says during the battle in 3.0 “just give up an drop dead” is a particularl translation, which the person in charge of the english translation Mr. Dan Kanemitsu commented as follows:

...
The sub utilized:
Shut up and let me
kill you, Brat Shinji!

While the meanings are different, I felt that the audience would be able to appreciate that Asuka's "let me kill you" has multiple meanings.

In the course of our lives, there are moments when people employ rash statements in moments of passion.

This was one such circumstance.
...
Best regards,
Dan Kanemitsu

here is the link to the original discussion: post/855205/Translation-of-Evangelion-30/#855205

(however this element of passion does nothing but highlight the fact that Shinji is a special person for Asuka).

There is absolutely no hatred towards Shinji, but there is definitely a lot of anger.
But despite the anger, Asuka is very fond of Shinji and we see this at the end of 3.0, right after she fought so furiously against him, when the door of Shinji's entry-plug opens and we see Asuka all panting from having rushed to check that he was unharmed (I really don't think she rushed there just for the desire to see the corpse of a hated enemy).

Asuka knows Shinji, she knows that he is a gentle, kind and shy person but that he is also capable of doing great things.
She doesn't see him as a child, but she can't stand it when Shinji chooses to behave like a child.

Probably after 14 years she would like to meet the Shinji who was able to gather all his strength and courage to go and save Rei from Zeruel, a person who faces situations instead of suffering them.
Instead she finds a Shinji who runs away from unpleasant things, who chooses passivity, who does not face situations but suffers them, the same Shinji who chose not to help her during the tragic Bardiel accident. (... and so she finds a guy who needs a mother and not a lover).
All this causes her a lot of anger and frustration.

But then in village 3, especially thanks to Rei Q, Shinji manages to find the strength to react and the desire to grow.

In the dialogue on Wunder before the final battle, Mari immediately notices Shinji's growth, while Asuka can only recognize a partial change after he admits that he didn't take responsibility for her during the Bardiel incident (in those moments, Asuka was even willing to be killed by Shinji in an attempt to save her, what she couldn't accept was that he chose not to act).
After this, Asuka confesses to Shinji that she had a crush on him, but now it's all over because she's an adult and he's not (... at least that's how it seems, because Shinji has already changed more than she thinks).

Then comes the finale in instrumentality.
Shinji says to Asuka “I liked you”, using the verb in the past tense.
Hearing those words she definitely feels emotion, blushes and turns away.



In my opinion the expression on her face is clearly one of sadness.
The positions of her arms indicate a search for self-protection, just as if she had been hurt.

This says that Asuka still has feelings for Shinji, perhaps it wasn't just a teenage crush, because now she is different, she is actually an adult in body, mind and in the management of feelings (in fact she has become aware of her deepest needs, she no longer denies them because she has understood that she too is worthy of being loved, therefore she has resolved her traumas).

After all, the person who is now there in front of her is a Shinji who has finally become an adult (as recognized by Gendo himself and as Kaworu and Mari will confirm later), he is that Shinji who this time really came to save her, he has become the person she was waiting for.

But he is also the person who is telling her that there is not the same future for both of them.

However, Anno does not close the matter.
There are elements to think that it might not end like this.
In fact, Shinji was about to die, so was he really sincere? (We know that even later, with Kaworu and Rei, he will not be entirely sincere).

Each viewer is free to imagine the ending he prefers.

[Rigel]

And when Shinji does the same, I believe she was surprised at the idea of someone else reciprocating those same feelings for her in the past. To be more precise, I think her reaction comes from the shock of knowing, not that she necessarily still likes him that way. For me, she sees him as a good memory and perhaps a what if. That old friend we all have, I guess.

I watched the scene again and I think there is actually more to it.
A few hours earlier Asuka had settled the matter with Shinji by telling him that she liked him, but now she has grown up and he has not.
Now that Shinji reciprocates her interest and tells her that the matter is closed for him too, Asuka should have thought: “years ago we liked each other, we couldn't tell each other, but now we both agree that the matter is closed, so it's fine for both me and him. So everything is OK”.
So if the matter was really closed for her, she should have taken Shinj's words with serenity, even getting emotional, and maybe she could have even smiled.
Instead she blushes and above all she turns her back on him, a significant gesture.
A first explanation for the fact that she turns her back on him could be that she was very surprised, felt emotion and does not want to show her embarrassment to him. But this would be the reaction of a shy teenager and Asuka has never been like that, although she had her weaknesses. Furthermore, now she has become an adult woman not only physically, because she has finally accepted her “inner child” with all her most intimate needs and has resolved her internal conflict in depth.
A second explanation is that Shinji's closure made her suffer.
This would also be confirmed by the fact that while she turns her back to him, she curls up, hugs her arms to her chest, tightens her legs and has a disappointed and melancholic expression on her face.
It looks like a sorrowful Asuka, who probably feels regret for what could have been but can no longer be because Shinji is giving her closure.
The "simple" surprise of a past interest from Shinji cannot lead to such a reaction, it would be excessive and disproportionate, and in fact, imo, there is also a desire that is mortified to justify this behavior.
In conclusion, as far as I'm concerned, this reaction indicates that for Asuka the matter is not closed and that she still has feelings for him.

[BernardoCairo]

This is actually a really good angle that I hadn't considered. My opinion of the scene has changed a lot over time. I've become more accepting of the idea that Asuka still had feelings for Shinji, since she's a fictional character. I think trying to impose real-life logic on her emotions doesn't really help the discussion.
At the end of the day, she was trapped as a 14-year-old girl. I think her feelings for Shinji played a role in that. And I don't necessarily think the story paints that in a negative light.

[JFFF-7292]

I think trying to impose real-life logic on her emotions doesn't really help the discussion. At the end of the day, she was trapped as a 14-year-old girl.

I am convinced that in the end Asuka has resolved all her internal traumas and is therefore no longer trapped and that the feelings she has now for Shinji are genuine and are not forced due to a block.

In the interview for Omelete, Anno stated: “At the time of the TV series and the film (EoE), Shinji could only talk about himself, and try to save himself, at any cost. This time, he became an adult, evolved, and he can save the people around him as well. He was able to grow up to this point. I think that is the great difference. Before, he was only a child.”

So this means, even if it's a bit too unrealistic, we have to accept that after the experience in Village 3 and after the final confrontation with his father Shinji has actually become an adult, has recovered the 14 years of lost growth from the time skip and he has reached the maturity of his friends who grew up before him.

Therefore I believe that in the scene on the beach Asuka is fully aware that the person next to her is a different Shinji, grown up and that the brat who needs a mother instead of a lover is no more. The two sick Asuka and Shinji, blocked and traumatized, no longer exist.
The fact remains that Shinji still has a teenage body in that scene and here I agree with you that imposing a real-life logic doesn't help much.
However in the train station scene, also Shinji, just like Asuka, after his sudden awakening gets the adult body he desires, which corresponds to how he actually feels.
(After all, he is still in Minus-space where the laws of physics don't apply and I'm one of those who are convinced that there is no time skip between the beach scene with Mari and the train station scene).

[Sachi]

I think this topic is as good as any for dipping my toes back into forum posting:

When it comes to examining Asuka as a character in Rebuild, as well as Shinji's relationship with her, we have to take stock in the dynamics that remained the same and were carried forward from NGE. An important part of this process is also reconsidering how Asuka's characterization in Rebuild retroactively sheds light on some the things that may have otherwise been overlooked as inherent to her character in the original series, but were nonetheless there all along and simply made more obvious by her depiction in Rebuild.

The most important of these qualities is her role as an Angel. This may seem like something brand new and completely forced into the plot of Rebuild, but this is only half true. Rebuild certainly emphasizes her importance as being technically an Angel and carries forward the more magical elements of her "Angel powers" into the consequences of the larger plot, but the underlying qualities of how the Angels thematically express "self/society versus the other" maps perfectly onto Asuka's importance in the plot of EoE.

Consider it. First, once Nerv has become the target of mankind and is attacked by Seele and the MPEs, Asuka is the lone defense standing up for her right to exist against a society that's deemed her the enemy. Asuka/Eva-02 are the lambs for slaughter, the sacrifice to be killed by the Evas to pave the way for Instrumentality, the same way the Evas were deployed to eliminate the actual Angels. Simultaneously, Asuka is thematically Shinji's last link to humanity that he's desperately clinging onto, but eventually he damns her too, in the pre-Instrumentality kitchen scene. Shinji chooses to make Asuka "the enemy" when he strangles her, symbolically rejecting humanity itself, the 18th Angel. That's the precise moment Komm Susser Tod plays and Instrumentality proper begins. Asuka is the representative of humanity as the 18th Angel, and the necessary sacrifice in order to achieve Instrumentality.

So, when Rebuild comes along, Asuka and Shinji's falling out with each other isn't treated as the same massive, thematic and tragic conclusion of the entire story; instead, it happens much sooner as part of a mid-plot point in 2.0, with Shinji choking Asuka metaphorically through Eva-01 v Eva-03/Bardiel/the 9th Angel. Similarly, Third impact itself happens much sooner as a mid-plot point. The unique thing the Rebuild films do is begin to explore what their relationship might look like after such a traumatic experience between each other, but it also uniquely separates a couple things into unique plot points, such as Asuka going full Angel in 3+1 but ultimately being just another pawn for sacrifice necessary for Gendo to enact his own unique version of Instrumentality.

Anyways, extrapolate this perspective in any you can. It might all seem different in Rebuild, but really it's just the same thing over again in shiny new packaging, some details getting more upgrades than others, but I think that only serves to highlight which details ever truly mattered in the first place, which also provides fresh context for rewatching the original series again with new perspective, which is always a plus.

[Weird_ocean]

I think this topic is as good as any for dipping my toes back into forum posting:

When it comes to examining Asuka as a character in Rebuild, as well as Shinji's relationship with her, we have to take stock in the dynamics that remained the same and were carried forward from NGE.

I don't see it like this. For starters, Rebuild movies were not planned as a single story from the beginning of 1.0 they were kind of coming up with stuff as they went along. Its pretty evident, that they didn't really figure out that Asuka was a clone, and Mari's backstory in 2.0. Clone programming was also not a part of the narrative. They just came up with it in Shin.

Second, I don't think Rebuild continues Nge and Eoe, as much as it mirrors it. The N3I mirrors Asuka's defeat from the hands of Serial EVAs, and force-feeding scene in 3+1 mirrors Asuka's chocking scene in the kitchen. They flipped the script on them, like they did a lot of times in Rebuilds. But it's the same story.

Basically the same story, but in Rebuilds it'sa speedrun:

NGE and EOE: Asuka and Shinji fall in love, Asuka dies, because Shinji was doing nothing, Asuka mad, they fight, in the end they reunite.

Same thing, but instead a happy ending, because, they didn't come up with anything better than to "fix" the EOE ending. A.K.A make it lame.
"Guys, nobody got chocked at the end, 10/10. BEST MOVIE EVER!"

I really don't think they planned it to be a logical continuation of Asuka and Shinji's relationships, because in the middle of NGE, their relationships were also fine. Not the lovey dovey Rebuild fine, sure. So I don't agree with this take. Mainly because what happen in EOE is so different than the story of Rebuilds, so I don't see how things would be the same after third impact, and N3I. Especially knowing how the character of Shikinami, is immature deep inside, seeing how she is in the Minus space, while in the end of EOE, she clearly worked out her mother issues, and was strong enough to challenge Shinji in Instrumentality.

In the END of EOE Asuka is on another level from Shikinami. Shikinami still wants mommy and daddy, while Soryu is her own person, that chooses to return to reality on her own, without the help of Shinji or Kensuke.

[BernardoCairo]

I don't see it like this. For starters, Rebuild movies were not planned as a single story from the beginning of 1.0 they were kind of coming up with stuff as they went along. Its pretty evident, that they didn't really figure out that Asuka was a clone, and Mari's backstory in 2.0. Clone programming was also not a part of the narrative. They just came up with it in Shin.

That's not entirely correct. Yeah, they didn't plan everything in advance (or rather, the plans changed over time). It's a fact. But I'm 100% sure that Asuka was always meant to be a clone. They changed her name to match Rei's and even told Miyamura (her voice actress) that there was a reason for this and that she had to play her as a different character all together. Plus, she was always meant to have a connection to the 9th Angel since the early stages of HA's development.
When you go back and watch HA after having seen her Instrumentality scene in Shin, everything makes a lot more sense.

[Weird_ocean]

That's not entirely correct. Yeah, they didn't plan everything in advance (or rather, the plans changed over time). It's a fact. But I'm 100% sure that Asuka was always meant to be a clone. They changed her name to match Rei's and even told Miyamura (her voice actress) that there was a reason for this and that she had to play her as a different character all together. Plus, she was always meant to have a connection to the 9th Angel since the early stages of HA's development.
When you go back and watch HA after having seen her Instrumentality scene in Shin, everything makes a lot more sense.

In Anno's interviews about 2.0, he said that originally Asuka had a bigger role, with more exploration of her relationships with her mother. So, she had a mother. But the cut that out because investors wanted to gain more hype, so Anno completely rewrote 2.0, and reduced Asuka's character (thanks, Anno, you fuck) Whether or not it was her foster mother we don't know.

I read somewhere that it was Miyamura herself who proposed Shikinami being a different character from Soryu. But i need to look it up to confirm.

Mari's name is also "clone-like" but we never got confirmation that she is in fact a clone. In fact most things in Rebuilds point that Mari is not a clone, but has a curse of EVA, because she has memories of Yui and Gendo when they were young. I'm pretty sure the whole clone stuff was added to Asuka's character only in Shin, because there is no mention of it in 2.0 and 3.0.

[Konja7]

In Anno's interviews about 2.0, he said that originally Asuka had a bigger role, with more exploration of her relationships with her mother. So, she had a mother. But the cut that out because investors wanted to gain more hype, so Anno completely rewrote 2.0, and reduced Asuka's character (thanks, Anno, you fuck) Whether or not it was her foster mother we don't know.

I read somewhere that it was Miyamura herself who proposed Shikinami being a different character from Soryu. But i need to look it up to confirm.

Mari's name is also "clone-like" but we never got confirmation that she is in fact a clone. In fact most things in Rebuilds point that Mari is not a clone, but has a curse of EVA, because she has memories of Yui and Gendo when they were young. I'm pretty sure the whole clone stuff was added to Asuka's character only in Shin, because there is no mention of it in 2.0 and 3.0.

There isn't mention about this in 2.0 and 3.0 because Asuka doesn't have a big enough role to explore that aspect of her character. Asuke being a clone is a big revelation, so Anno would only reveals it when there is a moment for Asuka's intronspection. .

In the Instrumentality, Asuka mentioned her mother isn't around while she doesn't know her father, which implies Asuka knows her "mother" (who isn't around). At that point, the story had never told us that Asuka had a mother, so Anno doesn't really need to add this differentiation for Asuka's parents in this scene. He just added it because it is relevant for Asuka's backstory. I really doubt that someone who keeps so many details about the character's background only made up "the clone backstory" for Shin

Could you tell me what interview Anno mentions Asuka's mother, because I don't remember he mentioning her mother.


PS: I still think Mari could be a clone with memories of the original. The "curse" of Eva could keep her young, but it shouldn't rejuvenate her. Mari looks young in Gendo's memories, but that's before Shinji was born (and she looks older in the photo with Shinji baby).

[Weird_ocean]

There isn't mention about this in 2.0 and 3.0 because Asuka doesn't have a big enough role to explore that aspect of her character. Asuke being a clone is a big revelation, so Anno would only reveals it when there is a moment for Asuka's intronspection.

It could be, or they just didn't know yet. Anno is famous for making up stuff on the fly.

Mari looks young in Gendo's memories, but that's before Shinji was born (and she looks older in the photo with Shinji baby).

Why people keep saying that it's Mari on the photo? She clearly looks like Asuka. It's Asuka's original. I made a pretty extensive post about it. If Mari is a clone and has memoires of her original, she's still mentally a 50 y.o.

Could you tell me what interview Anno mentions Asuka's mother, because I don't remember he mentioning her mother.

I read it in the complete records collection for 2.0
https://gwern.net/doc/anime/eva/2010-crc