Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby Akko » Tue Aug 08, 2023 6:29 pm

I have noticed an eerie similarity between the scene of the 9th Angel's contamination in 2.0 and the Original Asuka apparition scene in 3.0+1.0. In 2.0 we have:
Image
Image
(Note that in the latter image, the face looks like a distorted version of Asuka)

And in 3.0+1.0 we have:
Image
Image

The important things to note are:
  1. The laughter only starts when Eva-13 makes contact with Eva-02, we can discard the idea of it being something that comes exclusively from Eva 02 or our Asuka
  2. Original Asuka's form of speech is... odd, to say the least. She almost sounds like you'd think an angel would.
  3. Notice how the sequence of events are almost entirely backwards and it's Original Asuka who grows the wings in 3.0+1.0

This post is more observational than speculatory, but this does offer some interesting possibilities. What do you guys think?
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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby Blockio » Wed Aug 09, 2023 3:14 am

This parallel between those two scenes is one of the cornerstones of the theory that the 9th Angel is made up of the rest of the Shikinami series; one of the early drafts for the 9th scene even had it talk back to Asuka with her own disembodied face
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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby Cola-09 » Thu Aug 10, 2023 3:51 am

I've recently expressed my changed opinion on this topic in another thread. I'm highly convinced the Asuka and Rei clones were made exclusively to become or be fed to the 9th and 12th angel respectively. Gendo hints this when being confronted by Misato and Ritsuko in Thrice.

PS: In the funnel, the small crosses could visually represent the collective of souls that make up the angel.
Last edited by Cola-09 on Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby Blockio » Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:31 am

The small crosses are thought to be the collective of souls, yeah. Might relate to the small cross Rei 6 forms when she dies, that's something to ponder over
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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby nerv bae » Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:10 am

View Original PostAkko wrote:The important things to note are:
  1. The laughter only starts when Eva-13 makes contact with Eva-02, we can discard the idea of it being something that comes exclusively from Eva 02 or our Asuka

I don't think we've entertained the idea that the laughter in 3+1 comes exclusively from Eva 02, because the laughter in 2.22 happened when Eva 02 wasn't present at all: only Shikinami and Eva 03 were present. And, I'm not sold on the idea that the laughter in 3+1 is caused by Eva 13, but rewatching the scene I think it's interesting that Shikinami looks around in bewilderment when the laughter starts, as though she's not expecting it.

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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby dzzthink » Sun Aug 13, 2023 5:46 pm

Yes I had a very interesting read of the other forum thread about thread/21350/Did-original-Shikinami-split-Asuka-from-the-angel/. I think its fair to say that there is a lot of interest in the Shikinami series but I can't feel as though it is not unraveled much in the story. I would say that these scenes do not reveal much about her history and experiences of being a clone, which only happens a bit later.
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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby LucAAAs » Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:04 am

Do you guys think the original Asuka is the base for the Shikinami series clones like Yui is to the Ayanami series or is she another just clone? In the ending scene where we are shown the Shikinami elimination process, we see two Asuka’s remaining, so maybe one of them was put in unit 13?
My question about a clone’s original also applies to Mari’s comment to Rei Q in 3.0, where she states her original was much less stuck up. Is she talking about Rei from 2.0, whom she’d only talked to in the battle against Zeruel, or is she talking about Yui? Rei’s sacrifice with the n2 bomb might’ve been enough to give Mari a sense of her more independent character, but I think the Yui scenario is more likely given what we know of Mari and Yui’s relationship.
I think it’s also interesting to see the core texture on the original Asuka, maybe indicating that she is the/one of the soul in the core of Eva 13.

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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby nerv bae » Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:19 am

View Original PostLucAAAs wrote:Do you guys think the original Asuka is the base for the Shikinami series clones like Yui is to the Ayanami series or is she another just clone? In the ending scene where we are shown the Shikinami elimination process, we see two Asuka’s remaining, so maybe one of them was put in unit 13?

In my Counting Shikinamis topic we talked about this a bit. Per that topic, I think original Asuka is just another clone, Type 0278 on the instrumentality wall, and that "our" Asuka is Type 0313 on the instrumentality wall. If this weren't true, then we'd have three Asukas: Type 0278, Type 0313, and original (perhaps Type 0001, unseen on the instrumentality wall). Though, I suppose one way to reconcile three Asukas would be: Type 0001 is original Asuka hiding in Unit 13 until the end of 3+1, while Types 0278 and 0313 are introduced in 2.0, during which of them is absorbed by the 9th angel and replaced by NERV with the other.

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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby C.T.1290 » Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:12 pm

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:In my Counting Shikinamis topic we talked about this a bit. Per that topic, I think original Asuka is just another clone, Type 0278 on the instrumentality wall, and that "our" Asuka is Type 0313 on the instrumentality wall.

It seems as if the real Asuka never existed to begin with, and that the original, along with her clones, were just made out of thin air, or rather made from the 9th Angel. If that’s the case, then Asuka wasn’t entirely human to begin with, but born as an Angel hybrid like how Rei was.

And that would also mean that there was no Shikinami/Soryu blood line for the original to originate from, so who are the Shikinami series really based on? Couldn’t be nobody, right?
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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby Konja7 » Wed Nov 08, 2023 8:56 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:It seems as if the real Asuka never existed to begin with, and that the original, along with her clones, were just made out of thin air, or rather made from the 9th Angel. If that’s the case, then Asuka wasn’t entirely human to begin with, but born as an Angel hybrid like how Rei was.


I don't really understand why people assume Shikinami clones were always the 9th Angel. Rebuild movies seem to imply Asuka was contaminated by the 9th Angel when Eva-03 was infected.

I think Asuka was a relatively regular human clone until she was contaminated by the 9th Angel. She doesn't even seem to need LCL baths like Rei.

Original Shikinami seems to be weird, but we don't know what experiments she went through. Yui was a regular human before her soul was absorbed by Eva-01.
Last edited by Konja7 on Thu Nov 09, 2023 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby C.T.1290 » Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:17 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:Original Shikinami seems to be weird, but we don't what experiments she went through. Yui was a regular human before her soul was absorbed by Eva-01.

Yeah, I wish we would know more about the original Shikinami progenitor, like who she actually was, and how she was absorbed by Unit 13. Like, was it willingly, or something she was tricked into?
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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby nerv bae » Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:29 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:
View Original PostKonja7#942275 wrote:Original Shikinami seems to be weird, but we don't what experiments she went through. Yui was a regular human before her soul was absorbed by Eva-01.

Yeah, I wish we would know more about the original Shikinami progenitor, like who she actually was, and how she was absorbed by Unit 13. ...

Can we even conclude that original Asuka was Yui-style absorbed by Unit 13? Instead, she might be piloting it normally, within its α entry plug alongside the Α* plug containing zombie Kaworu. She transcends her plug and appears before "our" Asuka inside Unit 02's plug, but I don't think this implies that she's been absorbed and is thus a ghostly apparition of some kind. After all, Shinji used the same transcendent power at the end of 2.0 while piloting Unit 01 normally to rescue Rei from Zeruel's core.

*In my head these were α and β plugs, but rewatching the 3.0 scenes I see they're α and Α plugs. I'm sure somebody has explored the signifigance of this in the last 10 years!

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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby Konja7 » Thu Nov 09, 2023 10:16 pm

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:Can we even conclude that original Asuka was Yui-style absorbed by Unit 13?

We could hardly conclude something about Original Shikinami.

Honestly, although we see Original Shikinami appearing in front of Asuka (which seems to imply she comes from Eva-13), I still feel Original Asuka really being inside Eva-02 could be a possibility.

Eva-02 has an A.T Field (which is different from Asuka A.T. Field) and even uses it to protect Eva-13 in 1.0+3.0. Instead, Eva-13 doesn't have an A.T Field.

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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby Blockio » Fri Nov 10, 2023 8:22 am

Well, given the way the flashback sequence played out with only Shiki left, I think we can pretty safely assume that OriAsu did not have a physical body left
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby nerv bae » Fri Nov 10, 2023 9:04 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Well, given the way the flashback sequence played out with only Shiki left, I think we can pretty safely assume that OriAsu did not have a physical body left

I don't think that's a safe assumption. In my opinion, the flashback sequence is ambiguous enough that it supports physical survival of more than one clone. One could argue that the instrumentality wall zoom out with two remaining cards, 0278 and 0313, followed by the visual of the NERV typewritten letter implies one of those cards has then been terminated, but I just don't think this is a strong implication.

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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby BernardoCairo » Fri Nov 10, 2023 9:30 pm

nerv bae wrote:the flashback sequence is ambiguous enough that it supports physical survival of more than one clone

I think the entire point of that sequence is to show that our Shikinami is the only survivor. Hence why in HA she keeps on telling herself that she's "special" and better than "the other ones". She had to earn the right to exist by triumphing over these "others", who failed.

I think at this point it's safe to assume that Asuka and the 9th angel were the same being all along and that whatever was inside Unit 03 was made up of those dead Asukas we saw in Shin.
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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby AsukaShikinami10 » Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:19 pm

@BernardoCairo I don't think Shikinami and the 9th angel were the same being to begin with. If that was the case, she would have contaminanted Unit-02 from the very beggining.

Moreover, we still get to see the pretty strange blue lightning bolts when unit-03 is being carried away.

Lets not forget that synching process connects the pilot mind and locomotion to the Eva, so my guess is that it is more in the line the 9th angel could synch and see through Shikinami's memories of having clones and thus it used that opportunity to bait her into its trap by scaring her at first (and a little hint for us to learn that she is not the only Shikinami in this universe) to then pull her ro the depths of the entry plug to finally combine with her.

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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby nerv bae » Sat Nov 11, 2023 9:58 am

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:I think the entire point of that sequence is to show that our Shikinami is the only survivor.

Do you disagree about the strength of the implication I wrote about above, or are you basing your opinion on some other details from the sequence?

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:Hence why in HA she keeps on telling herself that she's "special" and better than "the other ones". She had to earn the right to exist by triumphing over these "others", who failed.

These lines, or others?

SPOILER: Show
Image
Image
Image

These point to a solitary struggle, but I don't think they strongly imply sole survival.

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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby Axx°N N. » Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:18 am

I have to endorse nerv bae on this one. Speaking from a purely editorial point of view, in terms of economy of visual language ... if there was a pressing creative motivation to deliberately communicate to the viewer exactly how singular Asuka is as part of a clone series, two photographs is the kind of visual that leaves an impression and should logically be avoided, seeing as it can be interpreted precisely how it has been by several people here (including myself). There was nothing stopping anyone from instead showing one last photograph alone, if they really wanted to load an image up with unambiguous narrative connotation.

Anyway, what the film does explicate more directly is the suggestion of an original Asuka. Given every bit of visual evidence we have ... all arguments here considered, is there a better candidate than the other photograph, anyway?
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Re: Original Shikinami scene and the 9th Angel contamination scene

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Postby BernardoCairo » Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:43 pm

To answer everyone, I think there's supporting evidence that we're following two different Asukas on that particular sequence.
The first one we see smirking right after finishing her simulation. The other, who shows up right after, doesn't appear that happy though (despite having achieved identical results to her other self). This is the Asuka we see mirroring Ritsuko from EOE. She is miserable and can't escape (we literally see this happening). She was born in a frozen wasteland. She doesn't have free will and she knows it. Those trees she stares at? Those are like her and the others. They're all the same and they're all dying. So why was she so grim after the simulation while her other self was relieved? Because she knows she's succeeding. And that means everybody else is dying. In the end, only two Asukas remained. Which of the two survived? Which of the two is our Asuka? We don't really know and I think that's the ambiguity at play here. Remember, Asuka knows about all the other clones. Again, I do think that when she said "I'm not like them! I'm special" and "you can only count on yourself, Asuka" she was talking about the other Shikinamis, not Shinji and Rei. Still, this Asuka behaves very differently from the one we see in those flashbacks, doesn't she? Perhaps that first one we see in the simulation is the one who survived. Who knows?
(kudos to my friend Reichu for helping me wrap my head around this scene way back in 2021)

AsukaShikinami10 wrote:If that was the case, she would have contaminanted Unit-02 from the very beggining

Whatever was inside her was awakened by Unit 03 and this is symbolized by her growing wings (like many other Evangelions throughout the entire series). Asuka has many connections to these wings in NTE. They are also present in the code 999 sequence and are featured in her simulation plugsuit (the one we see in her flashbacks during the instrumentality). Besides, we can clearly see that Unit 03's signature blue goo comes from within her. Let's also not forget that girl's face that we see inside the entry plug in that scene, indicating that something was already inside and it looked like Asuka.
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