Things you didn't notice until later viewings

[AdamMalkovitch]

NTE is fuckin DENSE. Visually dense, and dense with story and dialogue. To the point that unlike where you COULD watch NGE multiple times to get more out of it, you pretty much HAVE to watch all the New Movies more than once to really GET them.
I recently saw GKids' theatrical screening of Evangelion 3.0+1.01, and that shit was a spiritual experience, I'd wanted to see EVA in a theater since I saw that meta live-action shot of the theater in EoE on my shitty, school-issued chromebook back in 2015 after picking up the series initially as a joke to see how hamfisted and tryhard I thought it was going to be. Anyway, I didn't notice any differences with 3.0+1.01 other than slightly different subtitles, GKids probably had their own translators redo it after amazon's, but in recapping everything to my fellow EVA nerd GF before going, and then actually rewatching it, I DID notice a few interesting plot points/allusions I hadn't picked up on before.
First off is Kaworu's donor, the original body his clone is based on. If NTE works on the same rules as NGE regarding clones, it seems very heavily implied that Kaworu's body is based on Gendo. This is due to him calling Gendo 'father' when Fuyutsuki and Gendo try to visit Tabgha base on the moon in 2.0, and in Kaworu's love of the piano, which is something Gendo also enjoyed when he was around Shinji and Kaworu's age [biological age, Gendo doesn't become a god until late in 3.0 lol]
The second thing is what Asuka meant by "my original" when Unit 13 activates and fucks up New Unit 02 during the insanely fucking awesome Angel Blood sequence. During the attempted Instrumentality in the Golgotha Object, shortly before Shinji begins the Neon Genesis using the spear of Gaius, we see Asuka Shikinami's backstory, where it's revealed she was a clone as well, but unlike Rei, all Asuka clones were out and active at the same time. No clue how NERV Euro acquired all those souls but considering SEELE's lack of care for human life, I don't need to think hard to come up with an answer. Now, the Shikinami series were also unlike the Ayanami series in that they had to COMPETE to be an EVA pilot, and those who didn't live up were implied to have been killed. During a shot of all the Shikinami, when we see them all slowly disappear, only two remain, and one is the technically-legal-eyepatch-shikinami we know, but the other was left unknown to me for a while. Now back in the present/bad future, Unit 13 NEEDS two pilots to operate at full capacity, so obviously chunks of Kaworu left in one of the Entry Plugs isn't gonna cut it [this is also why a small silhouette of Kaworu can be seen when-]. Asuka notices that Unit 13 DOES have two pilots, and the other one besides Kaworu noodle soup, is "her original", the other Shikinami that survived the death trials, and judging by how easily she's able to convert our Shikinami to LCL and yank her from New Unit 02 and her DSS choker, this Shikinami was the superior twin. As for why our Shikinami was sent to NERV HQ in Japan when a better one was available, it was probably a trump card move- send in a damn good pilot and then if she gets killed, send in an INCREDIBLE pilot who's all that plus more to make absolutely certain the enemy is defeated after Shikinami 1 wore it down. Same strategy I used to use in Pokemon battles actually.
The final thing pertains to Mari. We know that Mari's first time syncing and piloting a proper EVA was during the opening of 2.0, fighting the Third Angel "Tunniel". But, she's still clearly effected by the same Curse of EVA that the other pilots are effected by, and despite being much older than them to the point she went to high school/university with Yui and Gendo, she still looks that same age as in Gendo's fuzzy memories. So what if it's NOT piloting that causes one to become cursed with becoming a "Mock Lilin" and their body to stop aging? Mari's clearly had plenty of simulator experience, she's like the Raiden of EVA, so maybe it's just syncing with a Core that causes it? The EVA puzzle never ends, curiouser and curiouser

[BernardoCairo]

If Kaworu was confirmed as a clone of my man Gendo, it would make me like him 100 times more. And I already like NTE Kaworu much more than Shikinami and Ayanami 2.

Anyway, I really like how HA has an entirely different feel once Shikinami is revealed to be a clone at the end of the tetralogy. Makes me think they had it all planned out from the start (at least from the second movie onwards). Her dialogue with Shinji in bed makes a lot more sense when you know she never had a father in the first place, so his problems pale in comparison. Also, Shikinami acts much more annoyingly than Asuka Soryu when they're preparing to fight the 8th angel (Sahaquiel, in the original series). Asuka is much more worried with her life and wellbeing, while Shikinami wanted to act on her own. That makes sense. Asuka wants to live, that's her main thing. It's what she outright yells in both episode 25 and Air. She's traumatized because of her mom. Shikinami knows that she's only alive because she outperformed the other clones. She needs to be the best. When she says to herself that she's different and special after that same fight, she's not talking about Shinji and Ayanami, but her own selves. She's better than them and will survive.
So, yeah, nice touches there.

[Konja7]

First off is Kaworu's donor, the original body his clone is based on. If NTE works on the same rules as NGE regarding clones, it seems very heavily implied that Kaworu's body is based on Gendo. This is due to him calling Gendo 'father' when Fuyutsuki and Gendo try to visit Tabgha base on the moon in 2.0, and in Kaworu's love of the piano, which is something Gendo also enjoyed when he was around Shinji and Kaworu's age [biological age, Gendo doesn't become a god until late in 3.0 lol]

In NGE, it's implied Kaworu was created in the Contact Experiment between human DNA and Adam.

If his creation is similar in NTE, I wouldn't be surprised the DNA donor would be Gendo. In 3.0+1.0, connections weres drawn between Shinji, Gendo and Kaworu.

Now back in the present/bad future, Unit 13 NEEDS two pilots to operate at full capacity, so obviously chunks of Kaworu left in one of the Entry Plugs isn't gonna cut it [this is also why a small silhouette of Kaworu can be seen when-]. Asuka notices that Unit 13 DOES have two pilots, and the other one besides Kaworu noodle soup, is "her original", the other Shikinami that survived the death trials, and judging by how easily she's able to convert our Shikinami to LCL and yank her from New Unit 02 and her DSS choker, this Shikinami was the superior twin.

I think the pilots of Eva-13 are Zombie souless Kaworu and Gendo (from the distance). In Kaworu's instrumentality, Shinji mentioned that Kaworu and Gendo pilotted the same Eva.

Original Shikinami seems to be a soul at that point. Honestly, I'm not sure Original Shikinami was always inside Eva-13, I think she might have been inside Eva-02.

Regarding Kaworu's silhouette between Original Shikinami legs, I think this is Kaworu's soul (not Zombie Kaworu), which is trapped in the gree light.

[nerv bae]

First off is Kaworu's donor, the original body his clone is based on. If NTE works on the same rules as NGE regarding clones, it seems very heavily implied that Kaworu's body is based on Gendo. This is due to him calling Gendo 'father' when Fuyutsuki and Gendo try to visit Tabgha base on the moon in 2.0, and in Kaworu's love of the piano, which is something Gendo also enjoyed when he was around Shinji and Kaworu's age [biological age, Gendo doesn't become a god until late in 3.0 lol]

The nice thing about interpreting Kaworu physically as a human clone, and about eliminating the possibility of the lunar giant being one of the five Adams per this topic yesterday, is that it helps clear the way toward interpreting the lunar giant as the first angel Adam (singular); a plain parallel to the terran giant, Lilith, the second angel.

[ElMariachi]

If Kaworu was confirmed as a clone of my man Gendo, it would make me like him 100 times more. And I already like NTE Kaworu much more than Shikinami and Ayanami 2.

How awkward it would be if it turns that out of Shinji's four love interested, half of them are clones of his father or mother. Talk about taking the Oedipius Complex from NGE and pushing it up to eleven!

Although Kaworu can't be a clone of Gendo, we see in Thrice what Gendo looked like when he was a teenager (basically a carbon copy of Shinji with glasses), and Kaworu looks nothing like that.

Anyway, I really like how HA has an entirely different feel once Shikinami is revealed to be a clone at the end of the tetralogy. Makes me think they had it all planned out from the start (at least from the second movie onwards). Her dialogue with Shinji in bed makes a lot more sense when you know she never had a father in the first place, so his problems pale in comparison. Also, Shikinami acts much more annoyingly than Asuka Soryu when they're preparing to fight the 8th angel (Sahaquiel, in the original series). Asuka is much more worried with her life and wellbeing, while Shikinami wanted to act on her own. That makes sense. Asuka wants to live, that's her main thing. It's what she outright yells in both episode 25 and Air. She's traumatized because of her mom. Shikinami knows that she's only alive because she outperformed the other clones. She needs to be the best. When she says to herself that she's different and special after that same fight, she's not talking about Shinji and Ayanami, but her own selves. She's better than them and will survive.
So, yeah, nice touches there.

IIRC the creators said in interviews when 2.0 was released that there was a reason why her name was changed beyond having it fit with the IJN destroyers theme naming, so I think that her being a clone was planned from the beginning.

And yeah, pretty much all of Asuka's scenes in 2.0 are completely re-contextualized once you know that she's a clone, the elevator scene take on a completely different light, especially if you believe that Asuka and Rei knew that the other is also a clone: at first viewing you think that this just a love interests' quarrel for Shinji's affection as part of the weird harem-y direction the story took, and that Asuka calling Rei a doll was just because of the latter's general passiveness and simple jealousy at her bond with Shinji; but with the full context of Asuka's backstory, you realize that actually what Asuka was accusing Rei was of behaving like a good little programmed automaton as she was surely built by Gendo, unlike Asuka who's trying to be more than the purpose she was created for, and Asuka noticing the cuts on Rei's hands, the same kind than on Asuka's own hands, she realized that Rei was actually just like her, that she too is trying to be more than what she was created for. That's why Asuka relents so easily and there's even an implication of a budding friendship between them when Rei later calls Asuka to thank her when she volunteered to test Unit 03 so Rei could organize the diner.

In the end, this wasn't a quarrel out of a harem anime, but two people that were deprived of a childhood or anything resembling a normal life, and who tried to get part of a normal life by doing something for the first person who's ever been good and treated them like human beings instead of living tools, and Asuka saw that Rei was doing that since longer than her, and after a life of having to metaphorically step on the cadavers of her "sisters" for the right to live and have a name, she probably didn't wanted to crush someone else's dreams again, especially someone who turned out to be the same as herself.

Shit, that makes me realize that I would had loved to see the relationship between Asuka and Rei being more expanded had the timeskip not happened, or at least know what was Asuka's thoughts on Rei after she learned that the latter's feeling for Shinji were pre-programmed in her mind: did she thought that Rei's actions in 2.0 with the diner were just part of the programming, or genuine feelings that she developed after interacting with Shinji for some time?

[Konja7]

Although Kaworu can't be a clone of Gendo, we see in Thrice what Gendo looked like when he was a teenager (basically a carbon copy of Shinji with glasses), and Kaworu looks nothing like that.

I don't think Kaworu is exactly Gendo's clone. As you said, he doesn't look like Gendo or Shinji.

However, I think Kaworu could be created using Gendo's DNA. Even if they use Gendo's DNA, the result is not necessarily going to be an identical clone. This would explain the connections they draw between Gendo, Kaworu and Shinji.

Also, in NTE, I feel Kaworu is represented as the father, while Rei II is the mother.


PS: Even in NGE, Gendo's role in the Contact Experiment between Adam and DNA human seems suspicious. Gendo departed from Antarctica just before the Contact Experiment began.

[ElMariachi]

However, I think Kaworu could be created using Gendo's DNA. Even if they use Gendo's DNA, the result is not necessarily going to be an identical clone. This would explain the connections they draw between Gendo, Kaworu and Shinji.

There are no indication that Kaworu is made from Gendo's DNA, except him calling him "father" in 2.0, but I remember being noted that in Japan young people may call "father" the dad of their very close friends or lover, and Kaworu is absolutely obsessed by Shinji.
And the other "hint" is that he... likes to play piano? And that would be a hint that he's Shinji's "brother" instead of simply be something that he picked up because he had nothing else to do for a decade and half?
Anno is not the kind of author to leave something as big as Shinji having a half-brother hidden in subtle implications.

[Cola-09]

Right before Asukas original pulls her out of Unit 2 we see Kaworu in the tiny crack behind her.
I suppose this visual reaffirms that both Asuka and Kaworu are the two main souls inside Eva 13.

[nerv bae]

NTE is fuckin DENSE. Visually dense, and dense with story and dialogue. To the point that unlike where you COULD watch NGE multiple times to get more out of it, you pretty much HAVE to watch all the New Movies more than once to really GET them.

Yeah, jeeze, from memory: uhhhhh, Unit 01's failure to shield Shinji, the fifth angel doesn't leave a corpse to be examined, Kaworu's moon coffins are / are not covered in blood (still not sure about this), calendar(s) in Misato's apartment, Rei II's choker, the ninth angel's child-face, Shinji's entry-plug super-strength, 2.0's NTP's blue-water aircraft carrier, Kaworu's watermelon patch visit, bloated Lilith's enlarged cross, floating Keyed-up Gendo, Kaworu's motionless arms, black moon crater symbols, Shinji's backwards ejected entry plug animation error, Village 3's turntable date, Asuka's doll box, Kenken's Guinness world record, the Katsuragi expedition boats under neo-NERV HQ, Unit 13's fingerprints on Asuka's entry plug, the fifth cross's transformation into the purple tree of life, a half-dozen things in Asuka's instrumentality, and train station Rei and Kaworu's disappearance.

That's all I can remember off the top of my head; half of these things I didn't see myself but had to be shown by these very forums. Insanely dense films.

[Konja7]

There are no indication that Kaworu is made from Gendo's DNA, except him calling him "father" in 2.0, but I remember being noted that in Japan young people may call "father" the dad of their very close friends or lover, and Kaworu is absolutely obsessed by Shinji.

I've understood Japanese people calls "father" to their father-in law. However, I've never heard about Japanese people calling "father" the dad of their very close friends (or non married lovers).

I've seen young Japanese people calling close adults as "aunt" or "uncle", but not "father" or "mother".

Honestly, the theory that Kaworu was calling Gendo as "father" because he is Shinji's father seemed to me mainly an attempt to deny the possibility of a biological relationship between Gendo and Kaworu.

Anno is not the kind of author to leave something as big as Shinji having a half-brother hidden in subtle implications.

Really? It always seemed to me that Anno liked to leave mysteries unanswered directly.

For example: If I'm not mistaken, it was never directly confirmed Rei was Yui's clone in NGE. There were hints about that, but the direct confirmation happened in NTE (3.0).

[Archer]

Rei being Yui’s clone isn’t a subtle implication.

[MuscleRobo]

Kensuke's fridge is covered with Ultraman magnets. I know! Not as deep as some of the other things being brought up but I didn't notice it until my second watch!

[ElMariachi]

Really? It always seemed to me that Anno liked to leave mysteries unanswered directly.

For example: If I'm not mistaken, it was never directly confirmed Rei was Yui's clone in NGE. There were hints about that, but the direct confirmation happened in NTE (3.0).

No you're right, I explained myself poorly: Anno does not let things directly pertaining to Shinji's entourage kept mysterious in NTE, you had Fuyutsuki point-blank explaining to Shinji about how his mother disappeared 28 years ago and that Rei is a clone of her (not that NGE was in any way subtle with it, with Ritsuko accusing her to be a replacement Yui for Gendo, the mother-like relationship that Shinji sometimes had with her, and the fact that once Yui finally appears we realize that she has the same face and voice actor), then Thrice has a long flash-back/info-dump about Gendo's past and motivations, so I really don't think that Kaworu being related by blood to Shinji would had been kept ambiguous.

You are right that for everything else, Anno loves keeping things unexplained, or else there wouldn't be all those threads about every speculation imaginable!

[BernardoCairo]

How awkward it would be if it turns that out of Shinji's four love interested, half of them are clones of his father or mother. Talk about taking the Oedipius Complex from NGE and pushing it up to eleven!

I think that would really make a lot of sense. If you think about, Gendo is the one Shinji actually loves the most. It's his dad, the person he wants to impress, the only guy whose validation matters to him (he himself said in episode 16 that he doesn't care much about being like Asuka and HA makes it clear that he's only in it for Gendo's approval). Just as Rei was there to fill the void his mother left, Kaworu could be the same for his father.
In both continuities, Kaworu plays the role of the last person to appear in Shinji's life when he apparently has no one else. That's why Shinji throws himself at him. In the original series, the twist was that he was the episode's antagonist and in the movie is that he is not anymore. But Gendo's parallels appear in both NGE and NTE. He was betrayed by Kaworu, the same way his father betrayed him (according to Shinji himself). Q puts a good focus on how knowledgeable and experienced Kaworu really is. He's, before anything else, Shinji's role model (almost a father figure of sorts in some scenes, like Kaji). And the last movie just strengthened this connection between the two (same EVA, similar motivations, the piano)...
It would be a good conclusion for me. It would be like in the manga, in which Shinji stated that his relationship with Rei wasn't necessarily romantic, but that she fulfilled a part of him that had been lost for many years.
Also, NTE is a father-son story. So it would be thematically appropriate as well.

did she thought that Rei's actions in 2.0 with the diner were just part of the programming, or genuine feelings that she developed after interacting with Shinji for some time?

This is left ambiguous on purpose, I think. Did she really love him or not? Did Asuka really love him or was she programmed to like him too? Probably not, but I think it's a question that crossed her mind at some point. Their mindless rivalry and the entire movie becomes a lot less agonizing once you stop projecting Soryu into Shikinami and understand the character better. But I don't blame people for having that initial reaction, as they took an existing character and changed everything about him without warning, just leaving a few very subtle hints here and there. Hints that become relevant once you understand what's going on in the big picture. This is something that's very unique to HA. I haven't seen it anywhere else. It took us two movies to fully understand this one (since the third one is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to this specific thing).

[Konja7]

Q puts a good focus on how knowledgeable and experienced Kaworu really is. He's, before anything else, Shinji's role model (almost a father figure of sorts in some scenes, like Kaji). And the last movie just strengthened this connection between the two (same EVA, similar motivations, the piano)...

I feel 3.0+1.0 really reinforces the idea that Kaworu represents a father (while Rei II represents a mother).

Kaworu's wish to make Shinji happy is complemented by the fact that Kaworu sees himself reflected in Shinji. In itself, this remind me the idea of a father seeing himself reflected in his son, but let's add that the other character who feels reflected in Shinji is Gendo.

Also, Kaworu is a little sad that Shinji has grown (although he knows this is the best), which fits the concept of a father feeling melancholic that his son no longer needs him.

[Blockio]

It's an interesting angle to take into consideration, but I'm not positive it holds up to be applied as broadly as you do it.
Despite the connections that all of the pilots have to the Adams this time around, the parallels are obviously still the most overt for Kaworu and Rei, so they definitely have the parental figure baked into them by backstory somewhat, combined with the behaviour towards Shinji that you point out; I wouldn't go as far as saying that they are primarily coded as that, but there absolutely is merit to thinking that angle through some more

[ElMariachi]

This is left ambiguous on purpose, I think. Did she really love him or not? Did Asuka really love him or was she programmed to like him too? Probably not, but I think it's a question that crossed her mind at some point.

Are there hints in the movies that Asuka too was programmed with feelings for Shinji? I seems to recall that Asuka only mentions the Ayanami-line when she revealed it to Rei Q. Besides it wouldn't had served any purpose for Gendo (or SEELE for that matter) to have Asuka implanted with feelings for Shinji.

Q puts a good focus on how knowledgeable and experienced Kaworu really is. He's, before anything else, Shinji's role model (almost a father figure of sorts in some scenes, like Kaji). And the last movie just strengthened this connection between the two (same EVA, similar motivations, the piano)...

I feel 3.0+1.0 really reinforces the idea that Kaworu represents a father (while Rei II represents a mother).

I don't know, while Kaworu certainly had life advices for Shinji, the kind of activities they had (playing piano and stargazing together) and the massive amount of teasing they have gave me more the vibe of that sempai you admire and also have a bit of a crush on, rather than "he's a father to me".

As for Rei, while the pseudo-mother role she had toward Shinji was certainly present in NGE (which wasn't exactly subtle about it, especially if you already know about her nature), I didn't felt that this aspect was used in NTE: all the scenes of her being "motherly" were absent (no comment about her being a future great mother when she's cleaning the classroom, no jealousy from Ritsuko toward her...), rather I felt that the sibling angle was more pushed this time (the "If it's a boy, Shinji, if it's a girl, Rei" thrown twice in the saga, the fact that Ayanami is the maiden name of Yui in this continuity).
If anything, it's Shinji who takes more care of Rei than the other way around this time.
To keep with the theme of this thread, do you have examples of ways Rei represents a mother figure to him?

Despite the connections that all of the pilots have to the Adams this time around, the parallels are obviously still the most overt for Kaworu and Rei,

When are there connections between the pilots and the Adams? Aside Kaworu for the obvious reason of him being the First Angel, I don't see any, Rei still has her connection to Lilith by how she keeps taking Rei's face (the original one and the giant fetus head thingy in 3.0, and photoshop GNR in Thrice), but I don't see anything for Shinji, Asuka and Mari. (unless you count the Ninth Angel living inside Asuka)

[Konja7]

To keep with the theme of this thread, do you have examples of ways Rei represents a mother figure to him?

Rei II wanting to protect Shinji from the pain (the Eva) seems to me an aspect that is traditionally associated with motherhood. This is a wish that she mantain after the 14 years timeskip.

Also, Rei II tries to improve the relationship between Gendo and Shinji by cooking a dinner.

It's true that references to Rei representing a mother in NTE are less obvious than NGE, but NTE still always try to generate a connection with Yui (in 3.0+1.0, it's pretty clear in the Instrumentality).

[Blockio]

When are there connections between the pilots and the Adams? Aside Kaworu for the obvious reason of him being the First Angel, I don't see any, Rei still has her connection to Lilith by how she keeps taking Rei's face (the original one and the giant fetus head thingy in 3.0, and photoshop GNR in Thrice), but I don't see anything for Shinji, Asuka and Mari. (unless you count the Ninth Angel living inside Asuka)

It's less on the nose, but there's a fair share of screenwriting stuff drawing those parallels; Reichu has a good chunk of it written up, from before Shin so specifics vary a bit, but most of it has survived fairly gracefully

[nerv bae]

It's less on the nose, but there's a fair share of screenwriting stuff drawing those parallels; Reichu has a good chunk of it written up, from before Shin so specifics vary a bit, but most of it has survived fairly gracefully

Frustratingly, her web site is down and she seems to be departing Twitter. Wish all this material was available on Evageeks!