Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby Archer » Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:34 am

First off, apologies if I’ve written this already, feel free to delete if so.

Like, here’s the timeline of events:
- End of 2.0, Shinji awakens Unit 1’s god mode and gets absorbed into the core, causing N3I. As far as we’re aware, the immediate damage appears to be mostly limited to NERV HQ. At this point, Shinji is, for all intents and purposes, dead in-universe.
- Some months after 2.0, Gendo and Fuyutsuki get kicked out of NERV and are replaced by Kaji and Kaworu.
- Some months after that, they return and kick off the actual Third Impact, at which point the world actually goes to shit. This is an event that happens entirely without Shinji’s involvement, because in-universe he is still effectively “dead”.

Now, my point here isn’t to ask whether Shinji is responsible for 3I by virtue of performing the actions that laid the groundwork for it to happen. My question is whether or not we can reasonably expect other people to scapegoat Shinji, when there already exists two other people who were, in fact, clearly and inarguably directly responsible for triggering 3I and effectively ending the world, at which point Shinji has effectively been “dead” for months.

Of course, it is justifiable that Misato would be angry at Shinji. She DID kind of cheer him on as he was doing the whole Unit 1 awakening thing, so I’m sure she feels a lot of personal guilt and responsibility for what happened, and externalized that blame onto Shinji once he was brought back.

And of course, it is justifiable for Asuka to be angry at him, since Third Impact wasn’t the reason she was mad at him in the first place.

But for literally everyone else? I honestly just don’t really see it. Like, if N3I and 3I happened much closer together - maybe a week apart - one could reasonably expect that in the ensuing chaos, the events would kinda get conflated, and Shinji might still catch flak for 3I even though he technically wasn’t around for the main event. But with the event taking place months apart, Shinji being effectively dead for that time period (and remaining “dead” for the next 14 years), and with there being a clear non-Shinji direct instigator, it just doesn’t make sense to me that normal survivors would necessarily make the connection in their head to blame Shinji for what happened. Like, you don’t need a scapegoat when you can literally point to the guy who everyone knows was directly responsible for triggering the end of the world.

To the movie’s credit, 3.0+1.0 does seem to imply that none of the villagers have any particular sense of ill will towards Shinji. Like… yeah the ones who get the most screen time are all his friends who would be naturally he more inclined to give him a more fair judgment, but I don’t recall anyone blaming him for everything that happened.

Basically, my fan theory of why the WILLE crew all seem to hate Shinji is that they spent the last decade or so hanging around Misato and Asuka, who being the only two people who have actual justifications for feelings of animosity towards him would likely constantly bring up what a massive asshole he was. Ritsuko should probably know better but honestly she kinda gets downgraded to a minor role in the Rebuilds, and I never really got the impression that she liked Shinji much in the first place.

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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby Konja7 » Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:10 am

View Original PostArcher wrote:Now, my point here isn’t to ask whether Shinji is responsible for 3I by virtue of performing the actions that laid the groundwork for it to happen. My question is whether or not we can reasonably expect other people to scapegoat Shinji, when there already exists two other people who were, in fact, clearly and inarguably directly responsible for triggering 3I and effectively ending the world, at which point Shinji has effectively been “dead” for months.

The thing is that Gendo and Nerv are blamed for the situation of the World. That's why WILLE is fighting them.

However, Shinji is blamed too, because he opening the Gates of Guf at the end of 2.0 was the trigger for the Third Impact. We don't know how that worka, but this is the explanation we have.

Since we don't know the exact connection between the N3I and Third Impact, it's hard to know if humanity's hatred is believable or not.



View Original PostArcher wrote:To the movie’s credit, 3.0+1.0 does seem to imply that none of the villagers have any particular sense of ill will towards Shinji. Like… yeah the ones who get the most screen time are all his friends who would be naturally he more inclined to give him a more fair judgment, but I don’t recall anyone blaming him for everything that happened.

People on Village 3 doesn't know Shinji's identity.

Touji and Kensuke doesn't seem to reveal Shinji's identity. Shinji and Rei Q have been presented to Village 3's people as refugees.

Shinji friends aside, the only other person conscious about Shinji identity is Hikar's father. It's implied that the situation is tense with him (that's one of the reasons why Kensuke takes Shinji to his house).



View Original PostArcher wrote:Basically, my fan theory of why the WILLE crew all seem to hate Shinji is that they spent the last decade or so hanging around Misato and Asuka, who being the only two people who have actual justifications for feelings of animosity towards him would likely constantly bring up what a massive asshole he was. Ritsuko should probably know better but honestly she kinda gets downgraded to a minor role in the Rebuilds, and I never really got the impression that she liked Shinji much in the first place.

Although it's an interesting theory, Kensuke's words confirm that humanity holds Shinji responsible for Earth's destroyed state. It seems Misato didn't want this, but it still happened.

Kensuke: He died. Third Impact could only be stopped if someone was sacrificed. Kaji-san chose that fate for himself... and Misato-san let him do it. For a long time, Ikari, she's felt bad about making you shoulder so much responsibility. She thinks the burden should have been hers instead. That's why she didn't want you piloting an Eva again, right? Ikari, you're not the only one who's in pain. Misato-san's suffering, too.

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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby Axx°N N. » Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:39 pm

Your fan theory is about as good as the only other theory I've read that makes sense of it, which was (and I'm sorry for not remembering who to attribute) "of course those with reactionary enough tendencies to join a paramilitary group would succumb to radicalization of some kind and have a misplaced revenge drive." But these are more like doing the film's work in its stead. For two films where the entire dramatic conflict rests on how characters viewed an apocalyptic event and its perpetrators, exactly those elements are far too muddled for me.

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:The thing is that Gendo and Nerv are blamed for the situation of the World. That's why WILLE is fighting them.

There's a difference between a premise and establishing a premise. This is tricky when the premise is a time-skip and everyone is entrenched in their perspective and their duty, long past the point of freshly experiencing their emotions on the issue. However, that didn't stop clearly expository dialogue in 3.0 + 1.0 between characters who, knowing quite well many things the audience doesn't, have no believable reason to be recapping events (except, of course, for the sake of said audience). I mean, the dialogue between Ritsuko and Misato in the genetic vaults had virtually zero pretense for why they're speaking in near third-person.

I think one of the biggest flaws of 3.0 and 3.0 + 1.0 is they don't treat the situation for what it really is. I don't believe in the village, I don't believe in the persistence of positivity, I don't believe in the motivations of Wille, which is justified in single sentences without reference to their actual cause. Gendo is responsible for pretty much everything, including putting Shinji in the position to make the mistake at the core of so many debates here, but is Gendo's name passed around the lips of the Wunder crew? When anyone is pushed to the limit, is it Gendo anyone thinks of as they stare at ruins? The closest we get is the rushed-backstory "he killed my entire family!" emotional breakdown from Midori, but it's aimed at Shinji.

There's nuance introduced retroactively in Thrice, but that means there isn't any meaningful evolution to how these tertiary characters demonstrate their understanding of anything. For Q they seemingly mistrust or loathe Shinji, the audience is never given access to any space where they talk between each other and indicate any variance of outlook. In Shin when they talk amongst themselves they motivate each other to try and murder him out of spite and trauma, with nuance introduced in the middle of the standoff. Again, we aren't granted any insight into how, say, a meeting between crew members might go down. What does Misato even look like as a leader? She's a leader only because we're told that's her role, she commands from the bridge once or twice, and she broods in captain regalia. But we don't see her ever tease out how her crew might be feeling, there's no backroom discussions, there's no attempt to get a finger on the pulse of what's actually happening under her command in terms of sentiment.

It's like you took NGE and edited out scenes from the command center where any two characters deliberate. And in Gendo's case, It's like you took a World War II film but wrote out any character mentioning Hitler as the bad actor. Or a version of Come and See where the photograph of Hitler is absent at the end. Even in Instrumentality, which presents itself as epiphanic and driven by deep, hidden truth, Asuka's trauma is aimed at the cloning program and environs. Maybe this is a cynical calculation on my part, but this reads to me like an attempt to avoid a conflict between Asuka breaking free of her trauma but, at the same time, the script wishing to grant her abuser his own humanism. From a screenwriting perspective, two conflicting wants are in need of a solution; but is simply avoiding Gendo in situations where it makes it hard to humanism him later on justified? Does the adage "having your cake and eating it too" apply?

Gendo is treated as a schemer in the shadows, and then an outright villain when the time comes and he starts floating around and talking at length for the audience, but it's not a treatment of a war criminal or mass genocider, it's basically a tokusatsu villain, and one worthy of sympathy and redemption despite reducing humanity's population to almost nothing. And yes, I'm aware tokusatsu is a big inspiration for Eva and always has been, and perhaps over time Anno has veered away from realism toward a more traditionally genre outlook, but that still means that the realism of the situation here is a largely subverted one, where characters truly aren't characterized as if they're actually in the setting given the events. And even in the rubrics of tokusatsu, I've never seen a villain alienated from the rest of the characters even perceiving them as the villain. This isn't even a case of dubious morality or ambiguous roles, Gendo's actions and their evil are about as debatable as Palpatine's, unless you take the death of a spouse and lack of social graces as an excuse for literally anything.
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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby Konja7 » Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:I think one of the biggest flaws of 3.0 and 3.0 + 1.0 is they don't treat the situation for what it really is. I don't believe in the village, I don't believe in the persistence of positivity, I don't believe in the motivations of Wille, which is justified in single sentences without reference to their actual cause. Gendo is responsible for pretty much everything, including putting Shinji in the position to make the mistake at the core of so many debates here, but is Gendo's name passed around the lips of the Wunder crew? When anyone is pushed to the limit, is it Gendo anyone thinks of as they stare at ruins? The closest we get is the rushed-backstory "he killed my entire family!" emotional breakdown from Midori, but it's aimed at Shinji.

To be fair, although Midori was angry with Shinji (since N3I killed all her family), she mentioned Shinji's father during her emotional breakdown.



View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:It's like you took NGE and edited out scenes from the command center where any two characters deliberate. And in Gendo's case, It's like you took a World War II film but wrote out any character mentioning Hitler as the bad actor. Or a version of Come and See where the photograph of Hitler is absent at the end. Even in Instrumentality, which presents itself as epiphanic and driven by deep, hidden truth, Asuka's trauma is aimed at the cloning program and environs. Maybe this is a cynical calculation on my part, but this reads to me like an attempt to avoid a conflict between Asuka breaking free of her trauma but, at the same time, the script wishing to grant her abuser his own humanism. From a screenwriting perspective, two conflicting wants are in need of a solution; but is simply avoiding Gendo in situations where it makes it hard to humanism him later on justified? Does the adage "having your cake and eating it too" apply?

I really doubt the story doesn't mention Gendo's role in the Third Impact because they want to humanize him.

From screenwriting perspective, "showing the abuse" and "humanize the abuser" aren't necessarily contradictory ideas. After all, Rebuild doesn't fail to show what a horrible person Gendo is and how his actions emotionally destroy Shinji even if it tries to humanize Gendo at the end.

The most likely reason why Gendo isn't mentioned so much is because they want to focus on Shinji being guilty. Not to free Gendo from the blame (he is still humanity's enemy), but the story focus on Shinji and his ways to deal with the guilt is what really matters

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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby Axx°N N. » Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:29 am

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:The most likely reason why Gendo isn't mentioned so much is because they want to focus on Shinji being guilty. Not to free Gendo from the blame (he is still humanity's enemy), but the story focus on Shinji and his ways to deal with the guilt is what really matters

I think that's very true. I guess for me, the effect is the same, as Midori foregrounds Shinji so much to the point that Gendo's role is functionally undercut.
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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:09 am

No, and it never will be. Many years later, my view of Q may have changed significantly over time, but my view on Shinji's """guilt""" has remained static. If anything, Shin has done even more to exonerate Shinji and make the whole idea of him being responsible/in the wrong completely laughable. We're literally told in the Wundar bridge while the crew is eating "The N3I was an unintended consequence." and again by Misato herself "It's okay Shinji, I know that if you hadn't piloted we all would have died right then and there, that's why I'm grateful to you, even if the N3I happened as a result." The move even outright flashbacks to Misato cheering Shinji on and her contemplating her actions while in her quarters. It's not just Shinji & his father, there's way more parties that are far more guilty for that sequence of events playing out in 2.0 before we even begin to look at Shinji's general direction.

Here are your two (and ONLY two) options: Shinji kills the angel and saves everyone in the immediate vicinity but the N3I happens as an unintended consequence. The other option is let the angel merge with Lilith, start the real 3rd Impact and kill literally everyone. And you have exactly ten microseconds to make your decisio-oh woops too late, do not pass go, do not collect $200, go directly to instrumentality jail.

Shinji is a fucking hero, and WILLE should be kissing the ground he walks on for saving their ungrateful asses fourteen years ago.
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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby Konja7 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:22 am

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:No, and it never will be. Many years later, my view of Q may have changed significantly over time, but my view on Shinji's """guilt""" has remained static. If anything, Shin has done even more to exonerate Shinji and make the whole idea of him being responsible/in the wrong completely laughable. We're literally told in the Wundar bridge while the crew is eating "The N3I was an unintended consequence." and again by Misato herself "It's okay Shinji, I know that if you hadn't piloted we all would have died right then and there, that's why I'm grateful to you, even if the N3I happened as a result." The move even outright flashbacks to Misato cheering Shinji on and her contemplating her actions while in her quarters. It's not just Shinji & his father, there's way more parties that are far more guilty for that sequence of events playing out in 2.0 before we even begin to look at Shinji's general direction.

Here are your two (and ONLY two) options: Shinji kills the angel and saves everyone in the immediate vicinity but the N3I happens as an unintended consequence. The other option is let the angel merge with Lilith, start the real 3rd Impact and kill literally everyone. And you have exactly ten microseconds to make your decisio-oh woops too late, do not pass go, do not collect $200, go directly to instrumentality jail.

Shinji is a fucking hero, and WILLE should be kissing the ground he walks on for saving their ungrateful asses fourteen years ago.


Technically, Kaworu was sent with Mark-06 and the Spear of Cassius to stop the 10th Angel. So, it's unlikely that the 10th Angel would have the opportunity to start the Third Impact (although it depends how long takes to travel from Moon to Earth).

I've understood that Misato thanks Shinji, because if he doesn't start to pilot the Eva, humanity would be destroyed by the 4th Angel (or other Angels). You're right that Shinji is still humanity savior.


That said, it's a point in 2.0 that Shinji could have stopped when the situation becomes pretty weird (and the 10th Angel was practically defeated), but he decided to continue to save Rei.

I've read Shinji's goal to save Rei without caring about anything else could be considered "selfish" in a Japanese perspective. And that's the reason why he is blamed.

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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby kuribo-04 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:22 am

We hear from Midori Kitakami how Shinji basically killed her parents at the end of 2.0.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby Archer » Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:29 am

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:We hear from Midori Kitakami how Shinji basically killed her parents at the end of 2.0.

Were they NERV employees that died during N3I or something? I was under the impression they died during 3I like everyone else, and that she was just generically blaming Shinji for it.

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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby Konja7 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:09 am

View Original PostArcher wrote:Were they NERV employees that died during N3I or something? I was under the impression they died during 3I like everyone else, and that she was just generically blaming Shinji for it.


Midori mentioned that her family was killed in the N3I. Sakura also mentioned that her father died in the N3I protecting her family.

Aside from N3I being trigger for the Third Impact, the N3I seems to have been a destructive event by itself (for people in Tokyo-3 at least)

Kensuke and Touji seem to have worst memories from the N3I than the Third Impact. This has certain sense, since they should have been protected during the Third Impact (or they wouldn't be alive).

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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby nerv bae » Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:38 am

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:Here are your two (and ONLY two) options: Shinji kills the angel and saves everyone in the immediate vicinity but the N3I happens as an unintended consequence. The other option is let the angel merge with Lilith, start the real 3rd Impact and kill literally everyone. And you have exactly ten microseconds to make your decisio-oh woops too late, do not pass go, do not collect $200, go directly to instrumentality jail.

Writing here just to echo Konja7's point:

Konja7 wrote:That said, it's a point in 2.0 that Shinji could have stopped when the situation becomes pretty weird (and the 10th Angel was practically defeated), but he decided to continue to save Rei.

Yeah, there was absolutely a third option! Kill the angel and save everyone in the immediate vicinity, but do not save Rei, and thus avert the N3I (and presumably actual 3I).

Regarding Archer's timeline:

Archer wrote:- Some months after that, they return and kick off the actual Third Impact, at which point the world actually goes to shit. This is an event that happens entirely without Shinji’s involvement, because in-universe he is still effectively “dead”.

Now, my point here isn’t to ask whether Shinji is responsible for 3I by virtue of performing the actions that laid the groundwork for it to happen. My question is whether or not we can reasonably expect other people to scapegoat Shinji, when there already exists two other people who were, in fact, clearly and inarguably directly responsible for triggering 3I and effectively ending the world, at which point Shinji has effectively been “dead” for months.

Are Gendo and Fuyutsuki clearly and inarguably directly responsible for triggering 3I? Sure, they had returned to NERV by then, but there were 11th and 12th angel attacks going on, and a spear getting pulled out of Unit 01 potentially reviving Shinji!
Last edited by nerv bae on Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:41 am

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:We hear from Midori Kitakami how Shinji basically killed her parents at the end of 2.0.

And she would be dead too if it weren't for Shinji killing the tenth angel. There was literally no other outcome that was better for everyone involved.
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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby kuribo-04 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:20 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:
View Original Postkuribo-04#934783 wrote:We hear from Midori Kitakami how Shinji basically killed her parents at the end of 2.0.

And she would be dead too if it weren't for Shinji killing the tenth angel. There was literally no other outcome that was better for everyone involved.

I think what triggered the Impact was playing god and "reversing" Rei's death. Zeruel dies before the Impact proper starts (or at least looks pretty dead)
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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:20 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:I think what triggered the Impact was playing god and "reversing" Rei's death. Zeruel dies before the Impact proper starts (or at least looks pretty dead)

I don't really think it's really possible for Shinji to back out at that point. Especially considering nobody except the actual guilty parties are aware of what's really going on at that moment and what would follow afterwards.
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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby Axx°N N. » Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:40 pm

The more I think about it, the less I'm sure that even Toji and Kensuke do enough to introduce nuance. They don't look at the situation and deduce, for instance, "Yeah, Shinji, your entire situation was unfair and your Dad was the architect." They just kind of gently nudge Shinji in the direction of ultimately taking responsibility, more or less functioning as mouthpieces for what the script decided of Shinji's culpability. It's almost bizarre how uniform of a consensus exists between characters on this matter, as if it's a fundamental common sense truth of reality on par with "humans need air to breathe."

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:I don't really think it's really possible for Shinji to back out at that point. Especially considering nobody except the actual guilty parties are aware of what's really going on at that moment and what would follow afterwards.

Yeah, the entire situation is surreal and that alone makes it absurd that any blame would be legitimately leveled at him by the screenplay itself before we even consider characters within it. The adult scientists of the setting barely have a handle on the dynamics and physics of everything, so much so that I'm not even sure how it can be rationally deduced that an impact event was catalyzed by Shinji desiring something he shouldn't. It doesn't even make sense why Misato would be omnisciently cheering Shinji on, as if she's aware he's interfacing with some kind of Rei specter or achieving some kind of rewrite power. She shouts what she shouts because the scriptwriters know what's happening, but there's (from what I can see) no logical character-based reason.

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:Yeah, there was absolutely a third option! Kill the angel and save everyone in the immediate vicinity, but do not save Rei, and thus avert the N3I (and presumably actual 3I).

And yet the crux of one of two major poles of Shinji's guilt is that he didn't do enough to save Asuka. It feels as if the script, for the sake of the intended structure of the narrative, requires Shinji to be in the wrong regardless of his choices. He had no reason to believe attempting to save Rei could lead to anything bad, or that Rei was in any kind of less-than-alive state; I don't see how there's a chain of events here that renders out to guilt on his part, even indirectly.

It's all kind of moot anyway had the situation panned out differently. Everything Gendo was scheming to do was for the sake of Impacts, and nobody (Shinji not least of all) had any ability to prevent this or even be aware of it.
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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby nerv bae » Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:46 pm

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:Yeah, the entire situation is surreal and that alone makes it absurd that any blame would be legitimately leveled at him by the screenplay itself before we even consider characters within it. The adult scientists of the setting barely have a handle on the dynamics and physics of everything, so much so that I'm not even sure how it can be rationally deduced that an impact event was catalyzed by Shinji desiring something he shouldn't. It doesn't even make sense why Misato would be omnisciently cheering Shinji on, as if she's aware he's interfacing with some kind of Rei specter or achieving some kind of rewrite power. She shouts what she shouts because the scriptwriters know what's happening, but there's (from what I can see) no logical character-based reason.

Thought about this for a bit. Aren't Shinji and Misato speaking directly to each other (starting at 01:34:17)? Shinji calls out for Misato to activate the lift, and she must hear him (presumably via entry plug radio) because she does so right away from Terminal Dogma. A moment later after everyone's gone up to the geofront surface (Maya carrying along the laptop that interfaces with Unit 01) Shinji says he wants to save Rei and Misato cheerleads in response (not omnicience, just conversation). Ritsuko is there listening along, and after the impact starts she deduces the catalyst (what else would it be, besides Shinji's stated desire to save Rei?).

Are you basing your position on an assumption that the characters are out of contact with each other, or do you agree with me that they are in contact but still maintain your objections?

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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby Axx°N N. » Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:16 pm

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:Are you basing your position on an assumption that the characters are out of contact with each other, or do you agree with me that they are in contact but still maintain your objections?

The latter. I can't quite wrap my head around what exactly Misato would be visualizing is happening, much less why it would compel her to root for Shinji. We take it for granted that Shinji is pushing it to the limit in some kind of spirit form or something, but that's because it's being shown to us. What is Misato seeing? Is Ritsuko's exposition for the sake of anyone around her or just the audience? Ergo, does Misato speak in ignorance when she initially endorses whatever they perceive Shinji is doing? Either way, these are bioroids that have demonstrated mysterious behavior, and the angels have demonstrated that they take over and override pilots. Why isn't everyone assuming, even briefly, that either Unit 01 or the angel are going hawyire or causing Shinji to go haywire?

There's this:

Misato: Berserk?
Ritsuko: I don't know...
Ritsuko: I have no idea what is happening to Unit-01.

But then later she launches into the aforementioned exposition. What changes and what does she discern? And how is it that she draws a direct line from what happens to what results, and to Shinji and some choice of his specifically?
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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby Konja7 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:57 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:I don't really think it's really possible for Shinji to back out at that point. Especially considering nobody except the actual guilty parties are aware of what's really going on at that moment and what would follow afterwards.

It's implied in the talk between Ritsuko and Misato that Shinji still could back out. Ritsuko notices that the situation is becoming pretty bad and Shinji should be stopped.

That's why Ritsuko says Misato that she should convince Shinji to stop. However, Misato decides to support him (and Ritsuko was totally surprised about Misato's decision).



View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:The more I think about it, the less I'm sure that even Toji and Kensuke do enough to introduce nuance. They don't look at the situation and deduce, for instance, "Yeah, Shinji, your entire situation was unfair and your Dad was the architect." They just kind of gently nudge Shinji in the direction of ultimately taking responsibility, more or less functioning as mouthpieces for what the script decided of Shinji's culpability. It's almost bizarre how uniform of a consensus exists between characters on this matter, as if it's a fundamental common sense truth of reality on par with "humans need air to breathe."

Yeah. The story always works with the idea that Shinji is responsible for N3I and its consequences. According to the story, Gendo's manipulations don't erase Shinji's responsabilty in this event

Touji and Kensuke are nice with Shinji, but they don't try to free him from the responsibility for N3I and its consequences. For example:

Kensuke: Toji and the class rep getting married really took me off guard. Back in middle school, they were always at each other's throats. I guess Near Third Impact broke the ice, and all the resulting hardship brought them together. Ikari... N3I wasn't all bad

Kensuke tries to console Shinji in this scene, but he also mantains the responsabilty for the N3I and its consequences on Shinji.

The only character who tries to relieve Shinji of responsibility is Misato, but this is a case of "Shinji's my subordinate so I must take responsibility for his actions".



View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:The latter. I can't quite wrap my head around what exactly Misato would be visualizing is happening, much less why it would compel her to root for Shinji. We take it for granted that Shinji is pushing it to the limit in some kind of spirit form or something, but that's because it's being shown to us. What is Misato seeing? Is Ritsuko's exposition for the sake of anyone around her or just the audience? Ergo, does Misato speak in ignorance when she initially endorses whatever they perceive Shinji is doing? Either way, these are bioroids that have demonstrated mysterious behavior, and the angels have demonstrated that they take over and override pilots. Why isn't everyone assuming, even briefly, that either Unit 01 or the angel are going hawyire or causing Shinji to go haywire?

The point of the scene is that Ritsuko realized that Eva-01 awakening was going to have dire consequences. This is for the audience, but it's also to inform Misato that she should try to convince Shinji to stop (which Misato doesn't).

Of course, it's script convenience that Ritsuko quickly realizes so much about the situation. However, the important aspects were that Shinji is trying to save Rei without caring about the consequences and Misato is supporting him.

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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby nerv bae » Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:33 am

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:The latter. I can't quite wrap my head around what exactly Misato would be visualizing is happening, much less why it would compel her to root for Shinji. We take it for granted that Shinji is pushing it to the limit in some kind of spirit form or something, but that's because it's being shown to us. What is Misato seeing? Is Ritsuko's exposition for the sake of anyone around her or just the audience? Ergo, does Misato speak in ignorance when she initially endorses whatever they perceive Shinji is doing? Either way, these are bioroids that have demonstrated mysterious behavior, and the angels have demonstrated that they take over and override pilots. Why isn't everyone assuming, even briefly, that either Unit 01 or the angel are going hawyire or causing Shinji to go haywire?

There's this:

Misato: Berserk?
Ritsuko: I don't know...
Ritsuko: I have no idea what is happening to Unit-01.

But then later she launches into the aforementioned exposition. What changes and what does she discern? And how is it that she draws a direct line from what happens to what results, and to Shinji and some choice of his specifically?

Misato hears Shinji say he wants to save Rei. Misato sees Unit 01 powerfully attacking the 10th Angel, exposing its core, and then striding towards it. Misato knows that the 10th Angel previously consumed Unit 00, including Rei, and that at least based on Yui's contact experiments that humans can be preserved in, or at least disappear into, cores. From this, Misato is visualizing Shinji operating Unit 01 to complete Rei's rescue from the core. She cheerleads. She feels compelled to do this because she likes Rei and <insert multipage Misato character study here -- she's a complex person who's sometimes responsible and sometimes impulsive>. At this point Unit 01 has formed an AT field-arm and a halo, but hasn't begun to levitate or grow wings of light, so the severity of the situation isn't completely clear to anyone.

Regarding mysterious behavior, I do not agree that any of the Rebuild angels have done anything that ought to map into this situation as a warning. The closest is the 9th Angel, which appeared inside Unit 03 and silenced Asuka. But the 10th Angel is plainly outside of Unit 01 and hasn't silenced Shinji, and therefore I don't see why the characters would apply any lessons from the 9th Angel attack during this attack.

Ritsuko's exposition comes a moment later after the levitation starts and the wings of light appear. Her exposition is based on these new indicia, which she immediately recognizes (as does Misato) from reports of the Second Impact. Only at this point is it clear that Shinji's pursuit of Rei, after removing the threat of the 10th Angel, threatens the end of the world.

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Re: Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:05 am

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:It's implied in the talk between Ritsuko and Misato that Shinji still could back out. Ritsuko notices that the situation is becoming pretty bad and Shinji should be stopped.

That's why Ritsuko says Misato that she should convince Shinji to stop. However, Misato decides to support him (and Ritsuko was totally surprised about Misato's decision).

That was well before the 10th Angel was actually killed though. Unit 01 wasn't floating in the air with a naked Rei core yet.
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