More On The Spears...

[DantesInferno]

I was watching this video by my favorite Japanese Eva analysis channel, and the following analysis occurred to me...

When Shinji and Kaworu reach dogma in Eva-13 to pull the spears, Kaworu, who was expecting to find one spear of each type, utters:

2本とも形状が変化して そろっている
Both spears, their shape changed, and now match

(translation mine).

This line always bothered me: Kaworu expects one spear of each type, but they are both clearly Longinus (albeit in the "javelin" or "closed" configuration); why does he say that both changed shape?

It seems as if Kaworu isn't yet aware at this point that they are both Longinus spears; as if Longinus and Cassius changed into something else, when -in reality- only the Cassius one changed (into Longinus)... or did it?

The Solution to The Puzzle

It turns out that the spears become of Longinus type only when they're pulled out of Lilith and adopt the "open" (forked) configuration, not before!
This is apparently supported by the storyboards, which clearly state that both spears "turn into Longinus" after Eva-13 pulls them out, so before that, they were something else:


To recap, in NTE lore (unlike in NGE), only the two-pronged (open) form is truly "The Spear of Longinus", while the "javelin" (wound up) form is some intermediate/indeterminate state that is neither Longinus nor Cassius.

Now, the interesting part is Why did they become Longinus when Eva-13 pulled them out? The most likely explanation is that it is because Eva-13 is the Eva of Dispair, so when it takes hold of a spear, it automatically becomes the spear of despair, i.e. Longinus. This also explains why when Eva-01 reclaims one of the spears from Eva-13 during the battle in negative space, it immediately morphs into Cassius type: Eva-01 is the Eva of Hope, counterpart to Eva-13.

Somehow in Q, Kaworu was not aware of Eva-13's true nature, and he expected that they could pull the two spears in their last known state.

Of course, this reaises more questions:

1) What's the deal with Mark.06? Why was it able to wield the spear of Cassius?
2) Why was the spear on the Moon in the Cassius configuration (wrapped, being carried) before it was given to Mark.06?
3) Why was the spear impaling Lilith at Dogma in 1.0 through 2.0 in the Longinus state, and not in the "Neutral" state like the two stabbed after Third Impact?
4) Why were at least two of the four spears involved in Second Impact in the Longinus state?

to name a few...

EDIT: Perhaps the storyboard above is super old news (I had never seen it, but then again...I haven't looked into the storyboards really), and the above analysis is common knowledge already and only I wasn't aware, in which case... feel free to bash me

[Konja7]

Now, the interesting part is Why did they become Longinus when Eva-13 pulled them out? The most likely explanation is that it is because Eva-13 is the Eva of Dispair, so when it takes hold of a spear, it automatically becomes the spear of despair, i.e. Longinus. This also explains why when Eva-01 reclaims one of the spears from Eva-13 during the battle in negative space, it immediately morphs into Cassius type: Eva-01 is the Eva of Hope, counterpart to Eva-13.

Somehow in Q, Kaworu was not aware of Eva-13's true nature, and he expected that they could pull the two spears in their last known state.

It's a good point that the Spears transformed in Spears of Longinus when Eva-13 pulled them off.

However, I don't think this transformation happened due to Eva-13. If Eva-13 pulled a Spear of Longinus and a Spear of Cassius off, these would mantain their form.

I think this transformation to Spears of Longinus happened, because the Spears were in the "indeterminate" state.


It has never been said that Eva-13 is the Eva of despair. Also, the reason why the Spear of Longinus become Spear of Cassius in 3.0+1.0 seems to be related to Shinji's will.

[Zoop]

Very interesting, and would make a lot more sense out of Kaworu's statements.

I have some incoherent suggestions and ideas. I realize i contradict myself with a few things, its more like i'm thinking out loud:

1. Mark06 was supposed to be the "true" evangelion, I guess it would have taken on Unit-01 role as a "hope" eva too (having a "hope" and "despair" eva present is most likely all part of the ritual of performing final impact with eva imaginary, these things are probably not necessary for the impact SEELE had invisioned, or what kaworu is counting on)
2. I guess because the last eva to wield is was a "hope"-type (mark06?), or that is what the spear is supposed to be, and why unit 01 turns it back
3. The neutral state might not be that neutral or default, just the ones stabbed into Lillith were javelins, and this came as a surprise to kaworu, so I think theres something more special about it
4. One for Lillith, one for the angel/mark06, I'd guess

So my take from this is, the spears don't normally turn into javelins, perhaps its the state that allows it to change into another, while normally it would keep its configuration as cassius or longinus. The javelin would be a transition state.
So in normal circumstances, eva13 would have pulled a cassius and a longinus (or maybe even 2 cassius ones). But since it was in its transition state, they morphed into the "wielder status as a despair eva"-form. If this is the case, then why did a spear change when eva01 took one? There were 2 different ones needed for the final impact, so for one, it NEEDED to be a cassius, and most likely, only eva-01 would have been capable of turning it (back) (which makes you wonder if eva-01 would have just sat it all out, instead of going looking for gendo, the whole thing would probably have failed). But why, and how? And why did they turn into javelins, kaworu's surprise would indicate that this is something exceptionally special.

In comparison with NGE, I think we've seen this javelin form before when Rei uses the spear to take out Armisael, it morphs into a javelin before stabbing the angel, and then turns back afterwards.

Some extra thoughts:
There was supposed to be 6 spears, maybe 2 cassius, 2 longinus and 2 javelins.
The javelin's are like jokers or wildcards (in case others are lost), they can fulfill both roles by temporarily changing into another.
The spear mark06 wielded was actually a disguised javelin to trick kaworu, during the timeskip, the spears reverted back to their javelin form.
This is so they both turn to longinus as soon as 13 grabs em and fourth impact starts, 13 awakens, doors of guf are opened etc
If they werent, and they were the actual longinus and cassius, it would have made 13 into a semi-god right there on the spot and given kaworu/Shinji the power to turn back time / terraform the planet, whatever.
When 01 grabs one of the javelins, it immediately morphs to reflect the eva's nature into a cassius (meaning, its a javelin, a real longinus wouldnt do this).

If it is something like this, then kaworu's praise for gendo as the king of lillim would be justified. If he managed to trick so many people to get spears/javelin swapped out, making sure another spear is lost instead. Pulling that off in front of the eyes of SEELE and Kaworu, that definitely deserves praise. My gripe with this is that i'm under the impression that gendo only turned into the godlike mastermind when he used the Key, allowing him to see other possible timelines (and knowing how to trick a "god" like Kaworu). This little rant would suggest this masterplan would go back as early as second impact (where, presumably, the spears got lost).

Or forget all this and some external force (maybe gendo using the key, or the ships being capable of changing a moon into 2 new spears, perhaps same kind of power can be used to reshape an existing spear) is simply capable of turning a spear into javelin (but still, a javelin being special that it turns into the wielder's nature).

Another idea, the whole idea behind 13 being dual-entry, one soul for one of each of the spears. Javelins turning into the nature of the pilot. So kaworu for hope, Shinji for despair (which pretty much fits perfectly for the situation). Kaworu being able to handle cassius, Shinji wielding longinus, together do some magic. However, they are javelins, kaworu thinks this is strange, but it's not like he's alarmed right away, this could probably still work, they would turn into their pilot's nature, and still end up with the 2 different ones. Buttttt... then kaworu' starts feeling sick (gendo did something to demote him to the last angel, so gendo can take his place), this would turn kaworu into a "despair" too, this is going all wrong and kaworu starts imploring Shinji to wait. What's worse, kaworu get's cut off and Shinji is single handedly pulling both, now kaworu's nature doesn't even matter anymore, we end up with 2 despair spears and a new impact commences.

Whole lot of inconsistent ramblings, but maybe there is something of use in there.

[Konja7]

Another idea, the whole idea behind 13 being dual-entry, one soul for one of each of the spears. Javelins turning into the nature of the pilot. So kaworu for hope, Shinji for despair (which pretty much fits perfectly for the situation). Kaworu being able to handle cassius, Shinji wielding longinus, together do some magic. However, they are javelins, kaworu thinks this is strange, but it's not like he's alarmed right away, this could probably still work, they would turn into their pilot's nature, and still end up with the 2 different ones. Buttttt... then kaworu' starts feeling sick (gendo did something to demote him to the last angel, so gendo can take his place), this would turn kaworu into a "despair" too, this is going all wrong and kaworu starts imploring Shinji to wait. What's worse, kaworu get's cut off and Shinji is single handedly pulling both, now kaworu's nature doesn't even matter anymore, we end up with 2 despair spears and a new impact commences.

In fact, Kaworu mentioned that the Fourth Impact in 3.0 started, because he becomes the Thirteenth Angel.

Shinji: This is all because of me...? I... I...
Kaworu: It's not your fault. It happened because I became the Thirteenth Angel. I was the trigger.

This seems to imply that Shinji pulling the Two Spears of Longinus doesn't start the Fourth Impact. At most, the two Spears of Longinus were part of the process.

That would explain why Kaworu doesn't exactly know what will happen when Shinji pulled the Spears off. Kaworu knows something was suspicious and bad with the change of the Spears, but he never expected to become the 13th Angel.


PS: Kaworu becoming the 13th Angel seems to be caused by the fusion with the 12th Angel. So, Shinji pulling the Two Spears still started it in some way.

[Szmitten]

2本とも形状が変化して そろっている
Both spears, their shape changed, and now match

(translation mine).

This line always bothered me: Kaworu expects one spear of each type, but they are both clearly Longinus (albeit in the "javelin" or "closed" configuration); why does he say that both changed shape?

I think this is a combination of a) in-universe: Cassius never transforms into a javelin even when it stabs Eva-01 so maybe it's a Longinus only thing, and b) irl: a quirk of being finicky with the translation which could probably also be read as "Both spears now match, (at least one) having changed."

[Zoop]

I'm of a firm belief that Kaworu's demotion is not caused by the fusion, or pulling spears, i believe this was done TO him (around the same time gendo is literally floating around to shut down the seele members), i think it's gendo who activily cast down kaworu at the right time, and is why Kaworu is acting strange (he's actually feeling sick and at same time realizing what effect this could have). At first he's like "wait a bit, let's rethink this" and a bit later its (because he realizes he's cast down and what that would mean if he'd pull a spear) "stop, dont do it". So i'm pretty sure his casting down happens before devouring the angel, or the angel appearing, or pulling the spears. I think his casting down was neccesary for this to play out like it did

Shinji: This is all because of me...? I... I...
Kaworu: It's not your fault. It happened because I became the Thirteenth Angel. I was the trigger.

Because kaworu became a despair type too when he got demoted. If he wasn't, the two spears having become javelins wouldnt be a problem (but still suspicious).
Kaworu is clearly pondering about something at first, like "hmm, 2 two spears are both javelins, thats not supposed to be, but if we pull em, they turn in cassius and longinus anyway .. so what is the catch? *get demoted* ooh, thats the catch, gendo, you sneaky sunuva king of lillim".

In any case, i think there being a third (fourth (the huge longinus types used to breach gates of hell)? fifth even (gaius)?) type of spear that was under our noses the whole time that could explain one of the many mindboggling dialogues of kaworu, is a neat theory and/or idea.

[nerv bae]

Of course, this reaises more questions:

1) What's the deal with Mark.06? Why was it able to wield the spear of Cassius?
2) Why was the spear on the Moon in the Cassius configuration (wrapped, being carried) before it was given to Mark.06?
3) Why was the spear impaling Lilith at Dogma in 1.0 through 2.0 in the Longinus state, and not in the "Neutral" state like the two stabbed after Third Impact?
4) Why were at least two of the four spears involved in Second Impact in the Longinus state?

Oh goody, a Q spears topic that I can add my Q spears question to:

5) In which direction were Mark 06 and Lilith speared?

Everyone's pretty happy with the idea that Mark 06 speared itself and Lilith, such that the left spear entered from Lilith's back. But what of the right spear?



Did the right spear enter Lilith from the front or back? I thought about this for a while, comparing direction-of-corkscrew of both spears between shots, and Unit 13 hand-positioning between shots, and couldn't come to a conclusion about whether Unit 13 flips over (rotates through 180 degrees) both spears after pulling them. On the assumption that Longinus-forks can't switch ends, the left spear would have been flipped after being pulled. But I couldn't figure out whether the right spear was flipped too, or whether it was always fork-end-up such that Lilith was right-speared from the front.

SPOILER: Show

Stare at the direction-of-corkscrew and the hand-positioning: is right spear flipped over after being pulled?

[Zoop]

Without putting your screenshots under a microscrope, i would say both spears are in the same direction, because that would make sense when you think about when and how lillith and mk6 got speared. I would assume it was fairly around the same time, or right after eachother. Lillith is possessed by the angel and about to start a nasty impact. Lillith get speared by mk6, the angels escapes from lilliths body just in time and tries to hop over to mk6, who then proceeds to spear itself to lock the angel in place. (pure speculation ofcourse).

So unless Lillith got speared from other side, and then flips over during its fall, it wouldn't make sense for the spear to go the other direction.
Then, 13 pulls em out in the same direction, and the forks appear on the same sides, so it would suggest they were orientated the same.
Maybe lillith already (still) was speared before the angel and mk6 got there, but i dont think lillith could have moved to be crawling in that case.

I dont think there is reason for one of the spears to be turned around other way, if any of the art would contradict this, i would write it up as an animation error rather than it being done on purpose.

But if i'm right, then either 13 flipped the spears 180 before you see the forks appear, or the spears are able to just switch fork ends, depending which way you point it. So there is still something funky going on with their orientation (unless, again, this is an animation error too which i doubt, minor details like corkscrew direction i could see as an error, the entire object being positioned wrong seems too big of a mistake to be true).
The way it morphs and its forks appear and all, it could probably just as easily change its corkscrew direction too, lefty tighty, righty loosy does not need to apply to FAR-tech

[Konja7]

I think this is a combination of a) in-universe: Cassius never transforms into a javelin even when it stabs Eva-01 so maybe it's a Longinus only thing, and b) irl: a quirk of being finicky with the translation which could probably also be read as "Both spears now match, (at least one) having changed."

Thank you very much for this explanation.

So, it's could be a translation issue. Maybe Kaworu is only speaking about the change of one of the Spears.

After all, the handle of both spears was visible and they both looked like the handle of Spear of Longinus. So, Kaworu would only notice the change in the Spear of Cassius.

[DantesInferno]

It has never been said that Eva-13 is the Eva of despair.

Oh, but it has. Gendo mentions during the battle in negative space that Eva-13 is the unit of Dispair, counterpart to Eva-01, which is the unit of Hope.
Can't find a link to the actual Japanese cript right now, but from the tanslation in Reichu's blog:

Gendo: The thirteenth Eva, unit of despair, is counterpart to Eva-01, unit of hope.
Together, they are coming into alignment... tuning.
This, too, is a ceremony I require.

Also, the reason why the Spear of Longinus become Spear of Cassius in 3.0+1.0 seems to be related to Shinji's will.

I think there is a bit of that too.

If this is the case, then why did a spear change when eva01 took one?

Because Eva-01 is the unit of Hope; see response to Konja above.

Oh goody, a Q spears topic that I can add my Q spears question to:

5) In which direction were Mark 06 and Lilith speared?

And of course...

7) Is Mark.06 impaling itself, or trying to de-impale itself?

I've seen arguments that even though the unit is static, the pose is only consistent with it pulling the spear out, not stabbing itself.

I think this is a combination of a) in-universe: Cassius never transforms into a javelin even when it stabs Eva-01 so maybe it's a Longinus only thing, and b) irl: a quirk of being finicky with the translation which could probably also be read as "Both spears now match, (at least one) having changed."

Thank you very much for this explanation.

So, it's could be a translation issue. Maybe Kaworu is only speaking about the change of one of the Spears.

After all, the handle of both spears was visible and they both looked like the handle of Spear of Longinus. So, Kaworu would only notice the change in the Spear of Cassius.

I think this is very unlikely. The word order is only conssitent with both spears having changed, it is pretty much unambiguous. To express that only one changed, or leave it ambiguous, it would have to had been:

形状が変化して　２本とも揃っている

lit.: Shape changed (unspecified which/how many), and now both match

[Konja7]

Oh, but it has. Gendo mentions during the battle in negative space that Eva-13 is the unit of Dispair, counterpart to Eva-01, which is the unit of Hope.
Can't find a link to the actual Japanese cript right now, but from the tanslation in Reichu's blog:

Thanks. I had forgotten that.

I should say it's possible that Gendo calls Eva-13 and Eva-01 as unit of despair and hope, because they have the Spear of Longinus and the Spear of Cassius respectively in that fight.

I think this is very unlikely. The word order is only conssitent with both spears having changed, it is pretty much unambiguous. To express that only one changed, or leave it ambiguous, it would have to had been:

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I will accept your theory that the Spears were in a intermediate/indeterminate state.

That said, I don't think the Spears become Longinus due to Eva-13. It's more likely the Spears become Longinus, because they were in a intermediate/indeterminate state.

After all, if Eva-13 pulling the spears off were enough to become any Spear in a Spear of Longinus, it wouldn't be necessary (for Gendo?) to transform the spears to their indeterminate state.

So, if Eva-13 pulls a Spear of Longinus and a Spear of Cassius off, these will surely mantain their forms.

[DantesInferno]

That said, I don't think the Spears become Longinus due to Eva-13. It's more likely the Spears become Longinus, because they were in a intermediate/indeterminate state.

So, "Longinus" is the default? Could be.

After all, if Eva-13 pulling the spears off were enough to become any Spear in a Spear of Longinus, it wouldn't be necessary (for Gendo?) to transform the spears to their indeterminate state.

So, if Eva-13 pulls a Spear of Longinus and a Spear of Cassius off, these will surely mantain their forms.

All fair points. I still don't know what caused the spears (which were last known to Kaworu to be one of each when used in Third Impact) to turn into the javelin/intermediate state once pinned; i.e. the full mechanics of that. My point was that, Gendo didn't need to do any tricks: he simply relied on both spears becoming Longinus once pulled, whereas Kaworu wasn't aware of this for some reason.

To me, it makes sense that the spears take a form based on the nature of Eva wielding them (at least influenced by it, as one of the determining factors), because I have no other explanation, and it is consistent with what we see with Eva-01 and Eva-13.

[Konja7]

To me, it makes sense that the spears take a form based on the nature of Eva wielding them (at least influenced by it, as one of the determining factors), because I have no other explanation, and it is consistent with what we see with Eva-01 and Eva-13.

I understand your point. However, we can't really be sure if Eva-01 and Eva-13 have a nature of hope and despair respectively.

Kaworu definitely did not consider Eva-13 as the unit of despair. He even expected this will be used to give hope to the humans.

Eva-01 and Eva-13 were called unit of hope and despair by Gendo, but this happened in the finall battle where each unit hold a different Spear. I feel that Gendo's words expressed the role that each unit had reached at the end (not a inherently nature).


PS: It's pretty frustrating, because there are many things we don't know. So, we can only theorize.

[DantesInferno]

To me, it makes sense that the spears take a form based on the nature of Eva wielding them (at least influenced by it, as one of the determining factors), because I have no other explanation, and it is consistent with what we see with Eva-01 and Eva-13.

I understand your point. However, we can't really be sure if Eva-01 and Eva-13 have a nature of hope and despair respectively.

Kaworu definitely did not consider Eva-13 as the unit of despair. He even expected this will be used to give hope to the humans.

Eva-01 and Eva-13 were called unit of hope and despair by Gendo, but this happened in the finall battle where each unit hold a different Spear. I feel that Gendo's words expressed the role that each unit had reached at the end (not a inherently nature).


PS: It's pretty frustrating, because there are many things we don't know. So, we can only theorize.

I see. To me, Gendo's words didn't resonnate as if describing some transient property of the units though. It felt more like "this is what Eva-01 and Eva-13 are".

My take is that Kaworu didn't have all the info about Eva-13, and he thought he could just use the unit to pull the spears and accomplish his plan (the detals of which we will never know...). It is a bit weird that a character so in the know as Kaworu would miss that, but then again, he was played by Gendo in the end.

Like you said, so much we don't know. I'm torn between wanting an Actual Third Impact movie and a Second Impact one!

[Konja7]

My take is that Kaworu didn't have all the info about Eva-13, and he thought he could just use the unit to pull the spears and accomplish his plan (the detals of which we will never know...). It is a bit weird that a character so in the know as Kaworu would miss that, but then again, he was played by Gendo in the end.

It would be weird that Kaworu doesn't know, since he was sure he could use the Spear of Longinus and Cassius with Eva-13. Kaworu was played by Gendo, but he started to notice this when he sees that Spears impaled in Lilith have changed.

The main reason why I don't believe the theory that Eva-13 touching any Spear turns it in a Spear of Longinus is because it takes all the importance of the Spears not being the ones Kaworu expected to find.

As I said, the intermediate/indeterminate state would be totally irrelevant and unnecesary if Eva-13 would turn any Spear in a Spear of Longinus with its touch. And Gendo would mantain the Spears as Spear of Longinus and Spear of Cassius to avoid making Kaworu suspicious.

That's why I think if Eva-13 pulls a Spear of Cassius and a Spear of Longinus off, these will mantain their form. It just fits the story.

Like you said, so much we don't know. I'm torn between wanting an Actual Third Impact movie and a Second Impact one!

I would like an Actual Third Impact movie. I want to know more about these events.

A Second Impact movie seems extremely unlikely.

[DantesInferno]

The main reason why I don't believe the theory that Eva-13 touching any Spear turns it in a Spear of Longinus is because it takes all the importance of the Spears not being the ones Kaworu expected to find.

As I said, the intermediate/indeterminate state would be totally irrelevant and unnecesary if Eva-13 would turn any Spear in a Spear of Longinus with its touch. And Gendo would mantain the Spear of Longinus and Spear of Cassius to avoid making Kaworu suspicious.

That's why I think if Eva-13 pulls a Spear of Cassius and a Spear of Longinus off, these will mantain their form. It just fits the story.

Not sure I follow (sorry if I missed something); What is the reason you think the spears turned into Longinus when pulled out? We know the javelin state is not Longinus because of the storyboard (becoming Longinus = turning into a fork). This is consistent with Kaworu's dialogue (from memory, translation mine):

Strange... Cassius and Longinus, we need on spear of each. Yet, there's only two equal spears here.

This line suggests that Kaworu does not recognize the two spears as being of either type, but just as both being equal, of some other type, unknown to him. Otherwise he would say something more like:

Strange... Cassius and Longinus, we need on spear of each. Yet, there's only two Longinus spears here.

Are you saying that the javelin configuration too is Longinus, but Kaworu simply doesn't know this mode?

Perhaps Shinji's mind state is what turns both spears into Longinus? (in line whith how he reverts one back in 3.0+1.0, when he is in a more optimistic mood?)

Not sure this is less crazy a thing for Gendo to count on than just having them piloting the one unit that turns spears into Longinus upon touch.

But then again, Gendo is playing 65D chess since 2.0 at least, so anything is possible

[Konja7]

Not sure I follow (sorry if I missed something); What is the reason you think the spears turned into Longinus when pulled out? We know the javelin state is not Longinus because of the storyboard (becoming Longinus = turning into a fork). This is consistent with Kaworu's dialogue (from memory, translation mine):

I'm not sure the reason why the Spears turned into Longinus. It seems to be related to the Spears being in the intermediate state, but other aspects are a mystery.

My point is that I don't believe the theory that the touch of Eva-13 turns any Spear into a Spear of Longinus, because it doesn't really fit the story.

There was a lot of relevance to the fact that the Spears impaled in Lilith have become the same type of Spear (that's the reason why Kaworu discover there is a trap). So, it would be extremely weird if this change in the Spears is totally irrelevant and unnecessary for Gendo's plan in 3.0.


Also, it's implied that both Spears being the same is caused by Gendo (which wouldn't be necessary if the touch of Eva-13 turns any Spear into a Spear of Longinus).

Kaworu: Cassius and Longinus. Both of the Spears are needed. But the only two Spears that are here are the same...
Shinji: Kaworu-kun!
Kaworu: I see! Now I understand, Lilin!
(Translation by Reichu)

[nerv bae]

I understand your point. However, we can't really be sure if Eva-01 and Eva-13 have a nature of hope and despair respectively.

Kaworu definitely did not consider Eva-13 as the unit of despair. He even expected this will be used to give hope to the humans.

Eva-01 and Eva-13 were called unit of hope and despair by Gendo, but this happened in the finall battle where each unit hold a different Spear. I feel that Gendo's words expressed the role that each unit had reached at the end (not a inherently nature).

Idle observation: Unit 13 also changes pilot sets between Q and Shin. Kaworu's hope in Q is based on he and Shinji piloting Unit 13, but later in Shin Gendo's statement is made when (arguably) zombie Kaworu and Original Asuka are piloting.

[Axx°N N.]

... it's implied that both Spears being the same is caused by Gendo (which wouldn't be necessary if the touch of Eva-13 turns any Spear into a Spear of Longinus).

But seeing as Gendo was the architect of the entire situation (and pretty much everything else) is there really a meaningful difference? In other words, both things can be true.

[Konja7]

But seeing as Gendo was the architect of the entire situation (and pretty much everything else) is there really a meaningful difference? In other words, both things can be true.

My point is that Gendo would have no reason to transform the Spears to the same shape if the theory that the touch of Eva-13 could turn any Spear into a Spear of Longinus were true.

In fact, this would only bring difficulties to Gendo, since the Spears being the same alerts Kaworu that something strange is happening.


That's why I said the Spears being in a intermediate state were neccesary to turn them into Spears of Longinus. If Eva-13 pulls a Spear of Cassius and a Spear of Longinus, these Spears will mantain their form.