Why would Seele allow for Jet Alone to be built?

[evanbobeven]

If jet alone proved that big of a threat to funding for the eva project, why would an entity that controls all of the worlds governments allow for jet alone to get this far? I can't really understand that.

[ASW_Canuck]

Jet Alone seems to have been a self-funded private venture by the "Japan Consortium of Heavy and Chemical Industries", so SEELE probably decided it would be more effective to let them publicly crash and burn in a spectacular fashion than to try to kill the project through background political manipulations that could be exposed. Conspiracy theories and recriminations around the cancellation of the Avro Arrow are still going strong 60+ years later, whereas history is littered with the smoking ruins of military development projects that are nothing but mostly forgotten footnotes because they were doomed to failure from the start.

[AuraTwilight]

Also, like... It is literally impossible for Jet Alone to ever be viable because it doesn't run off of human souls and thus can never do anything to hurt an Angel, much less beat one.

[OutlawThirds]

Stick an S2 engine in it and attach a particle cannon to it and it could threaten an Angel, or worse, an Eva. By letting the project come to completion and then sabatoging it at the worst possible moment they did far more damage to the project then if they'd simply cut its funding.

[orcot]

didn't the same compagny or something similar build the positron cannon similar the space shuttle wasn't NERV's either, it might have been useful to some degree.

During the battle of Ramiel it could have used offensifly to fire the positron rifle better the Shinji did whilst also provide additional power to the canon
During the battle of Ramiel it could have used defensivly to hold up the heathshield whilst providing additional power to the cannon
During the battle of Matariel It could have provided a solution for the powerloss during the fight of armisael (still a plothole to work out a okay concept)
During the battle of armisael, Jet alone would be handy in retrieving Asuka, if you have it the positron cannon it could probably take it out.
During the battle of Zeruel it could have rushed it and inpaled it with the spear of longinus (that said Rei could have done so as wel)

During most of the eva battles it could have taken positron pot shots to the angels

I wouldn't call it useless especialy if you can give it a fake spear

[Zoop]

But then any Sachiel/Zeruel eyebeam shot, or any other angel offensive weapon would oneshot it to a smoking crater within a fraction of a second.
Not having an AT-Field makes it as useless as any other military weapon they've thrown at the angels with zero effect.
The positron rifle would be doing al the work here, JA could be successful exactly because it's so useless; the angel might not notice it as a threat until it's too late when it can gets a positron shot off.

But giving it a spear? Nah, any angel would rip it to shreds as soon as it launches.
Maybe if they can mass produce em into hundreds, but having that many nuclear reactors walking around in urban areas might be less than ideal.

[orcot]

The heatshield actually could withstand a lot of punishment, I'm not sure many angels could one shot it.
ALso the angels have a one track mind and they are sure to ignore/not see a large cannon several miles away
Would armisael be able to do anything to it? Jet alone could probably ignore it's attack or go stand directly in it to make scientific measurements on what it actually trying to do with it.

[Zoop]

The heatshield was supported by an Eva with an AT-field (or other way around), that is the only reason it lasted so long.
Those were Ramiel blasts that instantly vaporize pieces of cities and mountains alike, without an atfield, such a heatshield would be gone just as quick as any of the other examples that got instantly vaporized.

In any case, i stand by my point that the Jet Alone would be pretty useless. If sniping angels with positron rifles with a JA would be a viable option, then i'm also pretty sure you don't need a JA for that, this could easily be a fully automatic gun that doesn't need a humanoid-mecha to pull the trigger. So a bit too extra for long range, imo. For short range, as i mentioned earlier, any angel would dispose of it in notime.

Sure, maybe armisael wouldnt be able to do anything to it (this is assuming armasael only had the "mindrape" attack, we don't know if it could do more than that), but what is a JA supposed to do about such an angel? Jump really high? Again, if a positron rifle would have been viable, than a stationary gun turret would work just as fine, no need for a JA there.

The sole reason Eva's are efficient Angel killers is because they have an AT field strong enough to compete with the angel's AT field.
A positron rifle needs enormous amounts of energy to penetrate it (and even still, most likely still requires an atfield to support it), and then there are various types of defenses the angels have shown, ramiel solely relied on its projectable atfields but even a point blank nuke (past an atfield) did nothing to zeruel. So it's questionable if even a positron rifle would do anything to it.

[orcot]

The mass produced eva's had artificial spears of longinus that could penetrate AT fields.
But yeah maybe it could have been of service maybe not.

armisael specific retrieve Asuka/unit 02 try to shield it with its body and see if that helps? Stand in it's beam to atempt to make contact whilst the positron cannon is weeled in and charched up.

a other use would be to retrieve Eva 01 and eva 02 afther their defeat against israfel
Arguably Gaghiel, Sandalphon, Matarael, Ireul and perhaps leliel never got to use their AT field with Ireul and leliel being borderline cases and then theirs Ramiel. That's 6 out of 15 that would have a okay change of succes and Sachiel and Shamshel bardiel and arael. Would bring it to 10 out of 15 it has a none 0 change of defeating (especialy with eva back up)


PS who hear thinks that (Rei) AT field had a impact on Ramiels energy weapon? Do you think Jet alone would have survived a hit if it had the same shield?

[Zoop]

PS who hear thinks that (Rei) AT field had a impact on Ramiels energy weapon? Do you think Jet alone would have survived a hit if it had the same shield?

In case if it wasn't clear yet :p I absolutely think most of the blocking was Rei's AT field, the shield was just a tool to help with that.
It's the only way it can make sense, otherwise, why not make bomber aircraft and tanks plated with that stuff? Or why aren't Eva's plated with it?

A Ramiel beam that can vaporize a mountain in an instant, but a repurposed Space Shuttle Heat Shield would survive that? Nahh

Only way to counter ridiculously powerful metaphysical laserbeams is with ridiculously powerful metaphysical armor

[orcot]

Now I must rewatch those 2 episodes I know it set a mountain on fire but did it destroy the mountain? I must watch it

[eldomtom2]

The real answer, of course, is that Seele didn't exist when Jet Alone was written.

[Blockio]

...minus the part where Seele first appeared in episode 2.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Was it "Seele" at the time, or just "The Committee?" I forget how the naming conventions played out as the show was produced, I just know that the monoliths weren't used until much later.

Not that it means much to the greater plot structure, I suppose...

[Blockio]

Yeah, that's ultimately my point here; by whatever name it goes, there isn't really any structural difference, and the fact that they first show up this early on as a major plot point pretty much categorically rules out the possibility of JA being conceptualized before that

[eldomtom2]

Was it "Seele" at the time, or just "The Committee?" I forget how the naming conventions played out as the show was produced, I just know that the monoliths weren't used until much later.

Not that it means much to the greater plot structure, I suppose...

Seele is not named as such until episode 15.

Yeah, that's ultimately my point here; by whatever name it goes, there isn't really any structural difference, and the fact th
at they first show up this early on as a major plot point pretty much categorically rules out the possibility of JA being conceptualized before that

There is a massive difference. The Human Instrumentality Committee are a bunch of bumbling goverrnment paymasters who are ultimately on Gendo's side but end up obstructing him because they care more about keeping the budget balanced than saving the world. Seele are a mysterious religious cult who secretly control the world and who task Gendo with achieving their death-cult ambitions, though they suspect he may have double-crossed them.

If you take the time to actually look at the episodes without preconceived notions, and read the Proposal and watch NGE's inspirations, that the HIC/Seele were completely reconceptualised mid-production is clear.

[Blockio]

Calm the tone a bit, will you?

The name "Human Instrumentality Committee" tells you all there is to know about the fact that they were intended as a a shadowy death cult from the very beginning. "human instrumentality" is a riff on Kant's moral principle that people must not be instrumentalized, that you can't just go around using and misleading people in whichever way you like; the fact that they put in their name not only that they intend to do just that, but do that on a scale of all of humanity paints a decisively clear picture that they were not just "a bunch of bumbling government paymasters", but very much the shadowy, ill-intentioned kabal that Seele is.

[eldomtom2]

"human instrumentality" is a riff on Kant's moral principle that people must not be instrumentalized, that you can't just go around using and misleading people in whichever way you like

No it isn't. That's complete bullshit. We know for a fact that Instrumentality meant nothing beyond the name when it was first written into the series, and the only reason it's called "instrumentality" is because it's a reference to the Instrumentality of Mankind series. The original Japanese is "complementation" - the only reason it's "instrumentality" in English is because the Japanese translation of the Instrumentality of Mankind series translated "instrumentality" as "complementation".

[Blockio]

I said, calm your tone. We have warned you about your behaviour enough times; this is the last you will get.

As for the actual content of your post: It still hardly matters. The translation choice was made deliberately, and even without the name, the HIC is very much built up to be more than just some government officials only thinking of their budget. Remember, we are not talking about the out of universe logistics of Seele here, just about the production history of the Jet Alone episode in the larger picture. Your entire claim here rides on the notion that the one of the closest to a filler episode NGE gets was somehow planned out before one of the core plot points, and that a name change implies Seele cannot possibly have been written as having had their own long-term motives beforehand. The very premise of your argument is, to put it bluntly, absurd.

[eldomtom2]

The translation choice was made deliberately

Considering Michael House's comments, this means very little. I strongly doubt the Kant reference was intentional.

and even without the name, the HIC is very much built up to be more than just some government officials only thinking of their budget.

Only insofar as "Instrumentality/Complementation" is built up to be a goal of theirs. They spend the entirety of their first appearance complaining about how expensive NERV is and accusing Gendo of nepotism (which definitely doesn't jive with what we later "learn" about pilot selection).

Your entire claim here rides on the notion that the one of the closest to a filler episode NGE gets was somehow planned out before one of the core plot points, and that a name change implies Seele cannot possibly have been written as having had their own long-term motives beforehand. The very premise of your argument is, to put it bluntly, absurd.

This is a strawman. I never said the Jet Alone episode was "planned out".
And yes, Evangelion was a barely planned show. All the evidence from stuff like the Proposal really is that the Human Instrumentality Committee were conceptualized as a bunch of obscurantist bureaucrats - by Anno's admission in Schizo, they're the International Astrophysical Commission from UFO. The entire concept of SEELE was a later addition, including the idea that they were the real villains. There are some vague hints that they and NERV have some sort of foreknowledge via the DSS, but the nature of that is left very vague and it seems to be something Gendo has access to as well. Likely SEEKE was not created until episode 14's script was written, and of course by then episode 7's script was likely unchangable. And even then the SEELE as fandom knows it isn't fully created until EoE - as late as episode 21 they're still just following a plan of Gendo's, not their own.