Kaworu's quantum immortality or, the implications of the EoE timeline being the *second* of at least three.

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

Moderators: Rebuild/OT Moderators, Board Staff

Forum rules
By visiting this forum, you agree to read the rules for discussion.
Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 6697
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

Kaworu's quantum immortality or, the implications of the EoE timeline being the *second* of at least three.

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:34 pm

This is more a possible speculation that I think is interesting rather than something I think is 100% the one truth; I am going to assume tree things here but, I admit, not conclusively prove

1.The alternate lifetimes that Kaworu speaks of in TuaT indeed explicitly involved the original series

2. EoTV had Gendo's instrumentality (something suggested in the platinum booklets & imho easy to prove from the actual dialogue - instead of rejecting him, Rei says "Yes Sir" & then instrumentality starts, Misato says what's going on is "your father's work", Shinji thanks Gendo in the end)

3. Adam, or the FAR whose soul became Adam's, wrote the dead sea scrolls, as in the EVA 2 game.

So, from Kaworu's perspective (the only one who's crossing any actual alternate timelines; He just plain never found out what happened to the previous two Shinjis after instrumentality) the events went like this:

Timeline 1 - original show and EoTV. SEELE obtains an angel cocoon, which possibly does not actually hatch until after Armisael's defeat. The resulting being did get Adam's soul in the explosion but that was more of an accident than anything else. He comes out human-like simply because the angels have human-like genomes to begin with, like Yin and Yang becoming more similar before returning to their original merged state.

Much like Shinji wonders what the angels' deal is & why they have to fight them, Kaworu is curious about the humans and reluctant to destroy them. He's already ambivalent about destroying them by the time he gets to NERV, & he at least wants to get to know those people he's supposed to fight to the death, especially the pilots, whom he views as kindred spirits who also had their lives decided for them. At first he views Rei as the obvious kindred spirit to get close to but she's mostly suspicious of him whereas he immediately hits it off with Shinji, who is like a condensed embodiment of all Kaworu finds sympathetic about the Lillim. He's wrestling with his decision to the last, but in the end, finds that he just cannot bring himself to destroy the humans.

But he feels he cannot defy his "fate" either, so the only way he can be free is through death. He asks Shinji to end him.

Sometime after, instrumentality happens. Shinji is curled into a ball somewhere at the time, not actively taking the reins. He passively described being tanged and how it feels just like when his body dissolved in episode 20.

As this occurs after Kaworu died, it's uncertain if he knows about it. He probably does, though, since the Adam embryo was almost certainly involved.

Timeline 2 - DC episodes and EoE.

The FAR whose soul would be chosen to inhabit Adam (I like to think of him as Nebuchadnezzar, as in "key of") wakes up back on the FAR homeworld, and screams into a pillow, if the FAR have pillows. It didn't work. Not even death can release him. He's doomed to repeat the same events over and over again. Presumably, he falls into great despair.

In the pit of his hopelessness, he focuses on the one person who was nice to him & that he felt a sense of connection with: Shinji. Maybe he can't do anything to save himself, but he can help those he cares about - that's a pattern you see often in depressed people that they try to make everyone around them happy & not burden them. That's often behind sudden unexpected suicides.

He plots to give Shinji control of the whole thing, to make him happy & give him whatever he wants. He makes some tweaks to the scrolls. This is also when he "puts their names next to each other in the book of life".

SEELE now knows where to find Adam's soul, and maybe some other knowledge they need so that their counteroffensive becomes somewhat different/ more sucessful. They actually make Kaworu deliberately, like their own counterpart to Rei. Perhaps he gets to grow up like a human this time.

When he actually meets Shinji, not much is different. Kaworu must feel like more of a "puppet of fate" than ever before, just saying all the same words as the time before, knowing what's to come.

One thing he does markedly do different, however, is to hint more clearly to Rei where her original soul came from ("The added, we both took the shape of the Lillim to live on this planet" line)

He plays out his old role. Then, he waits. He becomes part of the merged Rei/Adam/lillith entity. He's all for giving Shinji control of instrumentality, to grant whatever he pleases. He doesn't end up choosing instrumentality, but the whole thing does help him to get some peace of mind & figure out his issues, so, mission accomplished.

Kaworu's existence in this timeline falls apart as the Rei/Lillith/adam entity decays; When Rei takes a peek at Shinji's future right after the first other human emerged, maybe Kaworu gets to see it, too - but he probably wouldn't know what happens to this version of Shinji after this. For all we know he might've been fine eventually, but the last Kaworu sees of him, he's bailing out his eyes.

Timeline 3 - Rebuilds

Well, it might not actually be the 3rd, since Shinji says "countless times". You may imagine the manga, ANIMA & the games in between or whatever.

Back to the FAR homeworld, and back to the drawing board, if FAR use drawing boards. So, instrumentality wasn't really an acceptable option. It didn't bring Shinji the happiness he desired (& by now that's what Kaworu is fixated on, having given up on his own escape long ago)

Now the FAR clearly wanted to limit which knowledge to give to their descendants, & for them to follow a certain path - only one "fruit" per planet, though the FAR had both.

My guess would be that they destroyed their own civilization and didn't want their offspring to have the power to make that same mistake. Maybe past life!Kaworu even believed in that at one point, but he no longer cares. He's past little tweaks. This is when he makes the "apocryphal codex" mentioned in 1.0. In it is, among other things, knowledge of the Golgotha object, presumably the tech that the FAR used to set their childrens' "fate" in the first place. A lot more FAR relics wind up on earth in general: The "Adams", the sealing pillars, more spears....

His hope is that either SEELE or NERV will incorporate it in their plans somehow so that he and Shinji can steal it & do some fuckery with it, so that Shinji can have yet more power to grant his wishes than with your regular instrumentality.

...This plan, at first, goes REALLY sideways. It must seem like "fate" grows more & more fixed the more he defies it. He wound up giving the bad guys either the means or the motivation to control the events much more closely. There are more mass produced EVAs, the pilots are now all artificially engineered to behave in certain ways, their every move accounted for.

Shinji never gets extracted from EVA 01, and Kaworu doesn't get to see him for many, many years. A temporary good that comes out of it is that he allies himself with Kaji, gets mentored by him, tries to protect the future of the Lillim in that way, but it fails, Kaji dies, and the earth becomes a wasteland.

Furthermore, when he finally meets Shinji, there is very little that Kaworu can do for him.

In the OG timeline he was mainly suffering at this point because all his friends, family and/or love interests were gone or estranged, so having a new friend/ love interests certainly helps with that.

But Rebuild Shinji's problem is that he accidentally wrecked the biosphere. That's not something that can be fixed with some handholding. He basically falls apart on Kaworu, barely sleeping or eating or taking care of himself, spiraling into deterioration etc & there's little Kaworu can do about it.

So he grows desperate and decides to steal the spears in Terminal dogma. He wants to take care of everything for Shinji, so he only explains what they're going to do in a superficial manner, so that he doesn't worry about it - & of course Shinji himself wasn't really in a state where someone else could rely on him.

This, of course, plays right into Gendo's scheme.

The exquisite irony here is that each of the two boys blamed himself completely for the mess & saw himself as the one who got the other one it. (whereas the truth is that they're both only human who fucked up trying their best)

Of course, he says that they shall meet again. He expects that this time, too, he will get to give Shinji what he wants come instrumentality. He "waits" inside EVA 13, as he once did within the Adam embryo.

But in the meantime, Shinji goes on to have his own little adventure in village 3, and by the time he arrives in minus universe, he's no longer really in this mindset of, as ep 25 puts it, "wanting others to give him happiness", or overwhelmed by his own pain to the point that he lost sight of everything else, like in EoE. He probably was when they first dragged him to the village, but no more - He remembers Kaworu's words about stopping NERV together, and wants to do just that, stop NERV.

For the first time he's in a position to actually think about what he truly wants rather than what he needs & doesn't have. He's gone a few rungs up the maslow pyramid once he got some actual experience of acceptance & community at the village.

So when Kaworu drops the reins into his hands, he doesn't use it to ease his accute pain - a reaction driven by need - but actually thinks about what a good use for this opportunity is - a response, based on will, goal directed thinking.

But it's also Shinji saying - "Hey, you don't always have to be the strong one, you don't always have to do everything for me and have all the answers - I will carry my own weight, so you can rely on me, too." - which is a really, really beautiful, deep & loving thing to say to your friend (and/or love interest, if that's the reading you choose).

It's specifically what Kaworu needed to hear most of all - his equivalent to Rei being told that no one could replace her, or to Asuka being told "You are you and that is enough." & it means a lot to me that they all finally got to hear those lines that they always longed for in their hearts. (for Shinji himself, it was probably the "people are nice to you because they actually care about you" (and no other ulterior reason) in the village sequence)

The scene ends with them holding hands, after all, sitting on that beach on the same level rather than Kaworu being up on his statue.

That's the "misunderstanding" Kaworu talked about - he wanted to just give Shinji what he wanted (& be connected to him through playing the role of the benefactor - which makes Kaworu just the same as the other characters, trying to get at connection & happiness in roundabout ways), when what Shinji probably needed was to be capable to make a difference & go after he wants himself. (to which the chief obstacle was his tendency to lose sight of the bigger picture when emotional)

It's not that he's not emotional; He's just making a big effort to pull himself together despite it (his voice & body language is still relatively downcast & he barely reacts to, for example, Mari getting all up in his personal space), & more than that, propelled forward by a sense of purpose & determination to channel those feelings into.

The key to the whole movie is rly in that conversation where grownup Touji talks about how when he can't save a patient he channels the feelings of responsibility into working harder for those he can save. In 2.0 when Shinji's told to "grow up" he says he has no idea how to do it, Gendo sure didn't model maturity for him nor are the people around him very mature (though little fault of their own) - Touji & co also make it very clear that they learned in the school of hard knocks & humble about their limitations, but they still look plenty admirable from where Shinji is standing.

So when he's handed the reins of instrumentality this time, he isn't compelled to cry out for a relief to his pain, but is actually making the decision from a position of want instead of need - & what he wants, as it happens, is to save his friends.

It's what he's always wanted. In ep 1 he cries about how "it doesn't matter if im here" (that he cannot make a difference) & he stays - yes, part out of selfish motivations like wanting to impress Gendo, feel powerful/be needed etc. but also cause it will certainly make a difference to this random injured girl here if she's sent out again or not. What sends him on his spiral of despair in the OG series is that everyone he knows is met with horrible fates while he feels he can do nothing. In 2.0 itself, when he makes the fatal mistake (ragequitting after Bardiel), he mentions the "cruel world where he & his friends get hurt" even when he's doing something very counterproductive like abandoning his post that really puts them all i harms way, because he's mad. Which is not because he doesn't truly care, but because he's not pausing to think & do the calculations at all: He's just mad & all he sees is his anger. When he's forced to see the consequences when Mari lifts him out of the shelter, he very much does not want him, but at this point it's too late to beat Zeruel without desperate measures.

Both tendencies, that is, the seed-like potential for both endings, were established & present from the start.

Or rather they're two sides of the same coin: "making a difference" can be for example be helping or doing something constructive, but if you're approaching that same goal from a position of desperation, it might come out passive-aggressive game-playing to "extract" acknowledgment from people, rebelling to see if they'll try to pull you back thereby actually destabilizing the bond.

So that's what Shinji kind of obtains there in the end: A world where he & his friends don't have to fight, a rather simple & humble thing compared with his parent's utopian ambitions, though it is at the same time a path that doesn't rely on FAR tech but leaves humanity to forge its own fate, & Shinji and the other pilots to use the rest of their lives for themselves, not in service to some "destiny" or organization. He doesn't impose any will or utopian idea of his own, he just fixes what his parents wrought. I've seen ppl wonder things like, hey why doesn't he make the world more utopian but return it to something as flawed as the modern day, but the whole point was that no one should have so much power to unilaterally impose his will. SEELE, Gendo and Yui all wanted to create utopias, after all.

Perhaps the end to the generational baggage on both a personal & cosmic scale. So though Kaworu was at first misguided, his efforts were hardly in vain. They did make this possible after all.

So gets to "retire", as Kaji suggested: To live among the people he wanted to spare, to coexist with them, to not just gift them the future but be a part of it.

Which is the greatest possible gift you could have given him. I honestly didn't think he could ever get it. i loved him since he first came onto the screen so, im very happy about that too.
I wanted to try harvesting the rice

I wanted to hold Tsubame more

I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like

FXArmaros98
Leliel
Leliel
Posts: 743
Joined: Jul 02, 2020
Gender: Male

Re: Kaworu's quantum immortality or, the implications of the EoE timeline being the *second* of at least three.

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FXArmaros98 » Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:43 am

@ Kendrix
I was thinking that Manga could be the first timeline when Kaworu meet Shinji because I don't see why if he already knowing Shinji him has acted in such weird and alien way that have make Shinji angry toward him many times :???:
But well maybe, it was just Sadamoto's idea of making that Kaworu a realy different person from the Anime

Also I believe that ANIMA could be a timeline that Kaworu has visit after EOE and before of Rebuild.

I wonder If we have to consider others spi-off like Battle Orchestra and like such of the part of the countless time when he meet Shinji before the Rebuild

But of course Anno could never give us the true answers about all of this

EvaChero
Ramiel
Ramiel
User avatar
Posts: 332
Joined: Mar 09, 2021
Location: in the midst of ID town......
Gender: Male

Re: Kaworu's quantum immortality or, the implications of the EoE timeline being the *second* of at least three.

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby EvaChero » Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:21 am

Great write-up as always Kendrix. I subscribe to the "loops" and/or simultaneous in parallel theory.
who doesn't want to kick back with Misato and have a few beers?

Konja7
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
Posts: 1376
Joined: Aug 04, 2019

Re: Kaworu's quantum immortality or, the implications of the EoE timeline being the *second* of at least three.

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Konja7 » Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:38 am

I don't think Kaworu has memories as Adam (or FAR). In my opinion, Kaworu and Adam are different beings even if both have the same soul (like Rei and Lilith are different beings).

There is a big focus on Kaworu being born from the cofffin. So, I think his soul only becomes aware about the loops at that moment. After all, he gets the "Fruit of the Knowledge" when he gets a human body.



View Original PostFXArmaros98 wrote:@ Kendrix
I was thinking that Manga could be the first timeline when Kaworu meet Shinji because I don't see why if he already knowing Shinji him has acted in such weird and alien way that have make Shinji angry toward him many times :???:
But well maybe, it was just Sadamoto's idea of making that Kaworu a realy different person from the Anime

In fact, NGE would also needs to be the First Timeline in the Eternal loop, since Kaworu has a different goal in NGE.

It was just Sadamoto's idea to create a really different person for his manga, which makes it difficult to fit the manga's story in the Eternal loop. In itself, this issue apply to all Eva Spin-off, since Kaworu (like all the other characters) has different behavior and goals in each of these.

The only way to include the Spin-offs in the Eternal loop is that only Rebuild Kaworu is aware of the loops.

FXArmaros98
Leliel
Leliel
Posts: 743
Joined: Jul 02, 2020
Gender: Male

Re: Kaworu's quantum immortality or, the implications of the EoE timeline being the *second* of at least three.

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FXArmaros98 » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:07 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:The only way to include the Spin-offs in the Eternal loop is that only Rebuild Kaworu is aware of the loops.


Yeah I understand what you mean. But what about Evangelion Battlefields :???:
That game follow Rebuild's plot but it have many storyline, some ones even not in continuity with others :bigeyes:

I think maybe Battlefiels just like the NGE's spin-off like manga and games, SRW's series should be not consider a canonical part of the Eternal Loop.


Return to “Rebuild of Evangelion Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests