SUGGESTION: Categorizing information according to Tiers

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SUGGESTION: Categorizing information according to Tiers

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Postby RussianRiz » Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:46 am

Hello.

I was thinking about the Wiki, and I apologize if I'm being intrusive or somehow violating the purpose of the wiki, but I'd like to suggest a way of categorizing information that could make it easier for both sides - readers and writers.

Basically, we have, within the Wiki, a scale of canon, and it's pretty self-sufficient, by the way. It turns out that, in many cases, the information in the articles looks a bit... mismatched, mixing things of debatable source with stronger information, such as authentic scenes from the anime. So, what if we separated all the information, and the wiki topics according to the real canonicity of each information? I think it would be easier for everyone to discern how trustworthy that source is and what is most important to be extracted from there, especially in articles of analysis, which involve both objective and subjective aspects.

My direct suggestion would be the division of topics, giving clear advantage to information that comes directly from the anime, for example, and not from other sources, such as magazines or licensed materials. Then it would be information directly from the staff, and then the more inaccurate materials, consecutively. My only inability at the moment is to explain how well an argumentative writing would look like if based on a multiplicity of sources, from different tiers, but I think it would be possible to make a break in the text to respect this rule. It's not something I have an answer to yet, and I know it poses a problem with my proposal.

I've never worked within a wiki directly, and I don't have the time just now to learn and get started, but I wanted to give my 2 cents based on what I think could be a legitimate way to lessen ambiguities and make the wiki easier to digest. Again, I'm sorry if I am saying something that violates somehow the purpose of the wiki.

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Re: SUGGESTION: Categorizing information according to Tiers

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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:40 pm

You don't need to apologize! To tell the truth, I am very grateful for your suggestion. I think it is very reasonable and supports the purpose of the wiki greatly!

Your suggestion is easier to implement in factual articles, where sources are often separated by headings. I don't know what implementation would work better - labeling a source as "Tier 2 canon" or "Tier 3 canon" or distinguishing between sources using different font colors, for instance. Right now the wiki code is in a bad shape and some of it was broken during an update, otherwise we could explore other options, such as backgrounds of different colors for different tiers of canon in factual articles.

With Theory and Analysis articles, the entire situation is a little more complicated. Many of those articles are quite old and have been worked on by different people with different takes on the subject, and arguments in those can refer to the first-tier TV canon, second-tier canon from the show's creators, and third-tier canon sources one after the other.

Different creators tend to have different opinions - Kazuya Tsurumaki, for instance, seems to have a different opinion about Gendo than Hideaki Anno, and the voice actors have their own opinions on the characters that may not agree with Anno's vision. Perhaps the source of information in something like the card game isn't clear (was this based on a statement by Anno or not?). That can definitely cause confusion for a Theory and Analysis article. "How strong is the foundation behind which this argument is made?" is certainly a very good question to ask in such cases, and anything that helps answer that question is a bonus!

It is possible to mark the different levels of canonicity for sources referenced within a Theory and Analysis article at least on a test basis such as by using text of different colors, and see if that affects the flow of any of the arguments made as a result.
(Was Board Staff from Dec 31, 2007 - Oct 17, 2015 and Oct 20, 2020 - Aug 1, 2021)
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
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Re: SUGGESTION: Categorizing information according to Tiers

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Postby RussianRiz » Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:26 pm

Thanks for the reply and for the support.

I liked the idea of ​​different colors in the background, I think it would be educational and would be aesthetically interesting. From what you explained I don't know if this could be done in a single article. Particularly the idea of ​​breaking this information down into different articles seems to make the understanding denser, so I prefer the background idea better.

About the different views on different artists, I can't imagine why it would be such a big problem. Theory and analysis topics have always been the most interesting to me since I got to know the wiki, in mid 2013 or 2014, mainly because they support this multiplicity of views. Something I think I said in another thread. So, with a given organization, I think it would be possible to highlight Anno's and Tsurumaki's points of view without mixing them into each other. As both are staff placements, I would place them equally in tier-2, based on the proposed division.

Above all, I think the important thing is to highlight the type of information we are dealing with. I'm going to use the topic on the final scene of EoE as an example: the article as it stands currently uses the card game reference in its first paragraph. This causes me a certain discomfort not exactly because of the use of cardass as a source, but because of its privileged position in the article, serving as a basis for the general argument. I would not discard it as a source, but would make its supportive basis more explicit with a more precise categorization of the source and reliability of that source. Therefore, I would leave it to the end of the article, giving privilege in the first section to the events that we were able to visualize in the movie, the actual scenes. A second section could be devoted to interpretations that arise according to the information we received from interviews with the staff and VAs, which are of great value in understanding their explicit meaning and already live in the fanbase's imagination. Of course, there is a care taken with the translation of this information, which I think is completely relevant, but it is still good to support this type of information because of how enlightening it can be given what we are seeing, even if it needs a "debatable-translation" banner. Finally, information from licensed materials and more dubious sources could be added, or even theories that have been developed on this site over the years, such as the one I mentioned earlier about the Hegelian aspect of the scene, other pertinent interpretations, etc.

Reinforcing, given my lack of knowledge in wiki organization, I do not know how easy it would be to build an argumentative text based on this organization proposal, and I am aware that it can be a problem, but I would be happy to see the wiki respecting a more defined injunction of information from multiple sources and implications, both to elucidate the anime for different audiences and to continue to foster debate among the audience.

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Re: SUGGESTION: Categorizing information according to Tiers

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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:59 pm

Regarding the Cardass game in the article in question, I made the source of the information explicit because it was still a Work in Progress and I wanted a placeholder to mark where the information was. I'm not happy with it myself, and I think that information needs to be changed or pushed around/reorganized.

One of the reasons I am in support of what you say is because I realize that most people are not the best at looking at sources/references, especially if they are in a hurry to look something up. Making the level of canonicity clear would help. I think I'll see how to implement some kind of division of canonicity within the article, to make it clear.

Would you be interested in signing up as a scribe? You seem genuinely concerned about the wiki and your suggestions are good. Right now we've had a long list of scribes who have signed up but who have contributed little, if anything. Your suggestion has the potential to greatly improve the functioning of the wiki.
(Was Board Staff from Dec 31, 2007 - Oct 17, 2015 and Oct 20, 2020 - Aug 1, 2021)
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster

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Re: SUGGESTION: Categorizing information according to Tiers

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Postby RussianRiz » Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:51 pm

I appreciate it.

As I said earlier, I am short on time at the moment, but I admit that this idea has been on my mind for quite a while these past few days, and I would legitimately like to try to see my idea in practice, so I will accept the invitation. I will try to do some test work on the article we are discussing based on what material I can gather. It may take a while, but I'll only publish it when I'm sure of a good result.

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Re: SUGGESTION: Categorizing information according to Tiers

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:38 am

Check your inbox, you should have an email from the wiki.
(Was Board Staff from Dec 31, 2007 - Oct 17, 2015 and Oct 20, 2020 - Aug 1, 2021)
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster

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Re: SUGGESTION: Categorizing information according to Tiers

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Postby RussianRiz » Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:18 pm

Thank you very much!

I made a small introduction as a basic change to learn how the wiki works. I will make major changes to the text on my files and then move on to the article over the next few days/weeks as I can.

On the other hand, I am very grateful for you having received my recommendation and changed the text according to the canons, I appreciate it!

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Re: SUGGESTION: Categorizing information according to Tiers

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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:27 am

View Original PostRussianRiz wrote:I made a small introduction as a basic change to learn how the wiki works. I will make major changes to the text on my files and then move on to the article over the next few days/weeks as I can.


I saw your initial edits, and they are a good start! By the way, could you put up whatever links are broken? I can find archival versions of those to put in the article.
(Was Board Staff from Dec 31, 2007 - Oct 17, 2015 and Oct 20, 2020 - Aug 1, 2021)
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster

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Re: SUGGESTION: Categorizing information according to Tiers

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Postby RussianRiz » Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:54 am

Thanks. I plan to do more. I have some topics saved for later reading, and I still want to rework with interviews and Cardass, if possible.

About the specific link, it was this one, where would be the translation that indicates that the stakes seen are like gravemarkers.

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m2 ... ene12.html

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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:10 am



Done. Internet Archive has a saved version of that page and I added the link -
https://web.archive.org/web/20110714054 ... ene12.html

Do you want me to help you? I too want to rework the interviews and the Cardass information, but I don't want to interrupt you if you already have a plan in mind.
(Was Board Staff from Dec 31, 2007 - Oct 17, 2015 and Oct 20, 2020 - Aug 1, 2021)
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster

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Re: SUGGESTION: Categorizing information according to Tiers

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Postby RussianRiz » Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:24 am

Thanks a lot!

Of course I accept help! You are more knowledgeable about wiki formatting and you can definitely have better sources than mine. I didn't even know I could access some things via web archive!

I still have some reading threads to possibly expand interpretations of the scenes, based only on logic. After that, it would go to the script, then interviews and cards.

I also wanted to do a trivia session for some curious things, like the fact that previously there was the interpretation that Asuka was the junction of the three female protagonists, due to the low quality of the first releases of the film, or the animation error present on the cross of Misato (thread/20364/Misatos-Cross-hole/), and the ending diferentes (Video vs Theatrical release).

There are several ideas, and I know that by working together we can achieve better results.

A grammar review would also be welcome, as English is not my mother tongue (I try very hard to write in a way that makes sense, though).

Some links I plan to rework are:
https://www.angelfire.com/anime4/mdwigs ... uence.html
https://evaresources.wordpress.com/staf ... inal-line/
https://web.archive.org/web/20111101051 ... 40000.html
thread/716/EoE-Video-and-Theatrical-Difference/
https://literaryeagle.tumblr.com/post/1 ... eview-here
https://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episod ... Evangelion
https://imgur.com/a/t2rG1A0
https://imgur.com/a/orJwZWR

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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:00 pm

Glad to be of help! By the way, this is the link to the front page of the site in question, it's called the "Wayback Machine" and is a part of the Internet Archive. Just enter the address of the link that's broken, and you'll get an archived version of it (assuming it has been saved)
http://web.archive.org

I'm including the archival links to all those pages in the same order in which you posted them -

https://web.archive.org/web/20130123151 ... uence.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20190909045 ... inal-line/
https://web.archive.org/web/20171028235 ... eview-here

The interview with Miyamura about the final line is apparently okay.

https://web.archive.org/web/20111101051550/http://eva.onegeek.org/pipermail/oldeva/2001-July/040000.html


This old post is well-written but the author is advocating for an Asuka-Rei-Misato combination, and nothing about their reasoning makes sense.

View Original PostRussianRiz wrote:I also wanted to do a trivia session for some curious things, like the fact that previously there was the interpretation that Asuka was the junction of the three female protagonists, due to the low quality of the first releases of the film, or the animation error present on the cross of Misato (thread/20364/Misatos-Cross-hole/), and the ending diferentes (Video vs Theatrical release).


Don't worry, we already have a page full of common misconceptions, and the Asuka-Misato-Rei "amalgamation" is listed on that page along with other common misconceptions like "Naoko in Eva-00" and "The Barons of Hell".

Maybe I'm misremembering things, but I thought we had a wiki page somewhere that referenced the design change about the hole in Misato's cross? If not, that would actually be a very good addition. Regarding the ending differences, do you mean between Episode 26 of the TV series and End of Evangelion, or the differences between the Director's Cut versions of Episodes 21-24?
(Was Board Staff from Dec 31, 2007 - Oct 17, 2015 and Oct 20, 2020 - Aug 1, 2021)
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster

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Re: SUGGESTION: Categorizing information according to Tiers

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Postby RussianRiz » Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:10 pm

Understood, I will remember about the Wayback Machine.

I wanted to put the misconceptions on this page to try to make it clear that they are easily disposable, but if they are already mentioned on a page of its own, I think it makes more sense to redirect to it, in fact.

The difference I'm referring to is the film itself. I remember watching a version a long time ago where there were credits at the end instead of the middle as usual. I googled and asked in a topic, and I found this information:

https://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episod ... Evangelion

I would also cite them as part of the new trivia session, if it doesn't sound redundant.

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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:21 pm

Yes, please link to the common misconceptions page. That page exists to gather all common misconceptions together in one place for convenience, and the more often it is linked to, the better.

We never thought of having a trivia page, but if it is helpful, I see no reason why it shouldn't be started off -
https://wiki.evageeks.org/Useful_Trivia
(Was Board Staff from Dec 31, 2007 - Oct 17, 2015 and Oct 20, 2020 - Aug 1, 2021)
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster

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Re: SUGGESTION: Categorizing information according to Tiers

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Postby RussianRiz » Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:29 pm

I was thinking about what you said and decided to focus my plans for the article specifically on the specific subject. My initial plans would end up distorting the page too much. Thanks for the touch, this will definitely help me focus on the most important things.

I will contribute to the trivia page with information about the Misato cross.


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