The Great Episode 24' Plot Hole / Fanwank Thread

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The Great Episode 24' Plot Hole / Fanwank Thread

Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:23 pm

So is it a plothole in 24' with Kaworu thinking Lilith=Adam athough Adam=on Gendou's hand, as the SEELE 24' cut reveals??
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:29 pm

Probably, and to make it worse it's not the only continuity error there. Gaghiel could sense Adam but Kaworu who has Adam's soul apparently can't. This is the problem with retconning.

lol just noticed I mispelled retconning
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Postby Auriel » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:50 pm

That and how did Asuka come back, because she wasn't killed by third impact? Continuity errors shall always plague Eva fans.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:55 pm

Um, she reverted to LCL off-camera, same with Misato & Ritsuko. Once their all in the Sea of LCL and Shinji rejects Instrumenality, "all lifeforms" have the ablity to retore their physical forms if they wish to.
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Postby Auriel » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:59 pm

Curses! Foiled again! But does that mean that absolutely EVERYTHING could come back, including dead things? (and on a side note, I thought Asuka got eaten by one of the MP Evas')
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:07 pm

Oh god now we're into how does 3I work CURSES. Anyways Lilith ignores things like temperal mechanics on a whim so who knows just who could come back. It's clear from EoE that souls linger in their bodies for some period of time after death since they all got turned into LCL. What happens after that is undisclosed. Why couldn't Fuyutsuki spill the beans on that one?

As for Asuka getting eaten dunno, I figure something happened to her body since we didn't see her get tanged but her soul was still around for Lilith to snatch anyways reguardless of what happened to her physicaly.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:44 pm

nigoki was speared after her and Asuka's arm was split in half:

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Postby MaggotMaster » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:46 pm

Asuka was in Pre-Instrumentality, Lilith probably got a hold of her soul somehow.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:23 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Probably, and to make it worse it's not the only continuity error there. Gaghiel could sense Adam but Kaworu who has Adam's soul apparently can't. This is the problem with reconning.

It's sorta silly, since a lot of the NPC changes are rather carefully orchestrated. The Kaworu-Seele-Adam thing gets noticed by most greenhorns.

Well, flex your fanwank muscles; there's got to be SOME way around it. ;) (Hell, if the Star Trek franchise can make the TOS smooth-headed Klingons canonical and come up with an overtly convoluted explanation for them, this should be a piece of cake.)
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Postby MaggotMaster » Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:25 pm

Reichu wrote:Well, flex your fanwank muscles; there's got to be SOME way around it. ;) (Hell, if the Star Trek franchise can make the TOS smooth-headed Klingons canonical and come up with an overtly convoluted explanation for them, this should be a piece of cake.)


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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:09 pm

Hurray for Reichu fanwank! :D
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Postby Reichu » Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:19 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:Hurray for Reichu fanwank! :D

Don't look at me. I expect one of you to accomplish this Mighty Task. ;)
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:48 pm

Turns out I have a little bit of time on my hands so here goes:

Kaworu has alzheimer's like Kaji so he thought Lilith=Adam! :lol:

Seriously though...Hmmm. Prehaps, in a way, he did forget what the SEELE dudes/old men told him? I dunno, but maybe he somehow sensed Lilith was Adam via Rei's quantam magic?

Ugh. Somebody else, please (I'm looking at you, Anonymous_Evafan and Shin Seikai!), fanwank something! :(
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:21 pm

Wait a sec, me? Reichu can't even come up with a good one for this.
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Postby Ornette » Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:21 pm

[FANWANK]

A bit to why Seele sent Kaworu:
ep24' wrote:??:
Nerv, the organization formed to be Seele's executive branch...

??:
It was created in order to put our script into practice.

??:
But now, it has become an organization in the possession of one individual.

??:
Precisely, we must take it back.

??:
Before the promised day.

KEEL:
Nerv and the Eva series must be in their true forms.
Ikari, you will bear the responsibility of your malfeasance towards Seele.

How exactly does sending Kaworu help them get Nerv back? To force Gendo into killing the final Angel so they can get on with the Magi hacking and Nerv invading? I think there's more to it than that. Gendo knows there's something up with Kaworu, he's aware of Seele's suspicions, even Ritsuko who's been locked in a cell knows. Could Keel's venom in his last line here indicate that Seele's plans for Kaworu contain some malevolent intent toward Gendo?

The monolith on the lakes conversation is full of crypticness. What is this pandora's box? Instrumentality? Gendo's going to close the box to keep the hope in? Does that have something to do with Gendo's plans for 3I? The end of the conversation:
ep24' wrote:KAWORU:
Shinji's father...
So, he is also the same as me.

KEEL:
That is why we entrust you with our wish.

KAWORU:
I know. That's why I'm here now after all.

What exactly is their wish? Was is to sacrifice himself after making a big ruckus? Was it to go after Gendo and take back the ressurected body of Adam? His last line is delievered AFTER the monoliths disappear, he's talking to himself. He's also got a smile:
Image
He then turns around to glance at Misato, still smiling. I think he's aware that Misato has been spying on him the entire time, he does this to let her know that he's aware of the spying. Then, while still smiling, he says:
ep24' wrote:KAWORU:
All will be as the Lilim direct it.

Could this mean that he intends on going against what Seele has entrusted him to do? Or is he just blissfully content with him being a cog in the Lilim's machine and to just let things play out without any interference? Or maybe, a little bit of both? (From here on, we're not in NPC territory)
ep24' wrote:FUYUTSUKI:
I never imagined Seele would send one directly to us.

IKARI:
The old men intend to step up the schedule by forcing our hand.

*****

02:
Humans forget their foolishness and repeat their mistakes.

??:
If humans do not redeem themselves willingly, they will not change.

??:
We will not rely on the powers of Adam or the Angels.

KEEL:
Our only choice is to make changes with our own hands for the future.
I will be praying that Unit 01 will accomplish its task.

That is, by letting things go as the Lilim direct it, he's not going to do exactly what Seele wishes (thus Seele is pissed), but he's going to move the schedule forward (thus Gendo is pissed).

A couple of things during the (nudge) "reinactment of the Duel of the Seeds" fight:
ep24' wrote:KAWORU:
The Eva series.
Born from Adam, they are an abhorrent existence for humans.
And the Lilim will even use them in order to survive.
I can't understand.

and the dialogue in question:
ep24' wrote:KAWORU:
Adam, our mother.
Must all who were born of Adam return to Adam?
Even at the cost of destroying humanity?
No! This is...
Lilith?
I see, so that's what this is about, Lilim.

The talk about Adam, was just that. He's trying to understand the Lilim, why Seele sent him to Nerv knowing that he could cause 3I, what instrumentality is, and whatever. He's questioning why humanity must be destroyed if one born of Adam return to Adam. He knows Gendo has Adam's body, his intent wasn't to merge with Adam. What happens here is a moment of clairty on Kaworu's part. He's been babbling to himself (or to Shinji as well) about Adam, then he suddenly realizes what's in front of him. He realizes that it's Lilith, then all the pieces start falling into place for him. Hell, maybe he finally figured out what Seele meant by pandora's box and hope from the conversation over the lake.

If Kaworu knows Adam wasn't down there, why is he there at all? How does he even know to go down there in the first place if he didn't know Lilith was down there? Maybe that was partly the intention of Seele. Seele told him to go down there, but didn't tell him what was down there. He may not have been following Seele's plan down to the letter, but he did this because of his curiosity, and in some instances, to his disgust. Satisfied with things, he allows himself to die so that the Lilim can continue, there is "hope".

To summarize: Seele had a plan for Kaworu, he took matters in his own hands, went down to terminal dogma (which was probably part of Seele's plan to begin with), realized Lilith was down there and what the Lilim was all about, was satisfied with newfound enlightenment, and puts the ball back in the Lilim's court. And dies.
[/FANWANK]
Last edited by Ornette on Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby MaggotMaster » Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:36 pm

given Ornette's analysis I say this should we moved to Discussion.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:45 pm

I'm very confuzzled...

Perhaps one of the biggest problems is why Kaworu would mistake Lilith for Adam at all. As noted, even Gaghiel could isolate embryo-Adam's "signature" while en route to Lilith. For Kaworu, who essentially IS Adam, one think that he wouldn't even consider the possibility that Lilith represents his actual body, for any number of reasons. (E.g., "lol i never looked like that")

Ornette wrote:From here on, we're not in NPC territory

Correction. This dialogue:

02:
Humans forget their foolishness and repeat their mistakes.

??:
If humans do not redeem themselves willingly, they will not change.

??:
We will not rely on the powers of Adam or the Angels.

KEEL:
Our only choice is to make changes with our own hands for the future.
I will be praying that Unit 01 will accomplish its task.

...has been significantly altered from the original.

Remember, for your Ultimate Fanwank Scenario, you have to take the EVA-02 fusion thing into consideration, as well. ;)
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Postby Ornette » Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:53 pm

Reichu wrote:I'm very confuzzled...

Perhaps one of the biggest problems is why Kaworu would mistake Lilith for Adam at all.

I was proposing that he didn't mistake Lilith for Adam, he knew where Adam was, he just didn't know what was down in Terminal Dogma. Thus the whole, why he was sent there and what he actually decided doing stuff from the beginning of my post.

When he was talking about Adam, he wasn't refering to the white being in front of him, but he was working out, out loud, (and this next bit here is in fanwank^2 territory) why Seele sent him, why Gendo had Adam, and what the fuck is up with these Lilim, having stated earlier his confusion on the matter ("I can't understand"). The Eureka moment is when he realized it was Lilith in front of him.

This scenario of events seem to work whether we're watching the NPC or the OA version of 24.

Ornette wrote:From here on, we're not in NPC territory

Correction. This dialogue:

02:
Humans forget their foolishness and repeat their mistakes.

??:
If humans do not redeem themselves willingly, they will not change.

??:
We will not rely on the powers of Adam or the Angels.

KEEL:
Our only choice is to make changes with our own hands for the future.
I will be praying that Unit 01 will accomplish its task.

...has been significantly altered from the original.

Gah, I thought I was looking at the right file, had both of them open.

Remember, for your Ultimate Fanwank Scenario, you have to take the EVA-02 fusion thing into consideration, as well. ;)

My fanwank is not worthy of venturing into the ultimate realm.

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Postby Reichu » Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:23 am

Ornette wrote:When he was talking about Adam, he wasn't refering to the white being in front of him, but he was working out, out loud, (and this next bit here is in fanwank^2 territory) why Seele sent him, why Gendo had Adam, and what the fuck is up with these Lilim, having stated earlier his confusion on the matter ("I can't understand"). The Eureka moment is when he realized it was Lilith in front of him.

Problem with Adam NOT being the White Giant In Front of Me is the bit where Kaworu squints and goes, "Chigau. Kore wa ... Lilith!" Chigau is literally "to be different", and it's often translated as "no". Kaworu is taking a closer look at the White Giant and saying, 'no, it's somebody else', more or else. That somebody is Lilith, as opposed to Adam.

Gah, I thought I was looking at the right file, had both of them open.

You were looking at the right one. I was correcting the statement that we were no longer in NPC territory.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:28 am

Lets face it there is NO amount of fanwanking that'll fix this plothole. Star Trek had a century gap to work with we have 2 days.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!


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