How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby AsukaisLiterallyMe » Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:04 pm

I didn't care much about Rebuild 1, wish it had deviated from NGE earlier instead of trying to disguise itself as a summary film.

Rebuild 2 was my favorite of all four. The exploration of this version of Asuka was what I wanted for the longest time so I got my wish.

Rebuild 3 and 4 were pretty meh but had great openers. Did not like how the series ended but I respect Anno enough for doing what (I believe) he wants.

NGE and EOE's endings were more interesting and ballsier, they fit better with the series' themes, and the stakes were believable (instead of having apocalypse after apocalypse being combo'd in the Rebuilds).

The Rebuilds had elements to them that were interesting
SPOILER: Show
(Mary Iscariot, the "-Nami" line of clones, meta/surrealism, etc.)
but they focused so much on the plot, and explaining away the lore, that it felt like I was watching your typical shounen
SPOILER: Show
(down to the happy ending.)

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Postby AlphaZero » Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:41 pm

View Original PostChrisTamv wrote:
This interpretation is mainly about Shinji's behavior. And yes, even maniac escapists have their moments of assuming responsibility and acting bravely. That's... Kind of the whole point of Shinji's character since day 1 after all... However, Shinji at the end of 2.0 became Gendo 2.0. He was already at a bad spot, he lost the only person he thought that mattered in this world, and his response to all of this was to reject the world, his own self, and go beyond the laws of physics out of pure despair just and only to be together again with said person (not even to really live together with them again!)

3.0 + 1.0 reinforces this further by drawing explicit parallels between these two character moments, and they're almost the same, down to specific actions and the sequence in which they occurred.


I don't think is fair to reduce Shinji at the end of 2.0 like that. When Mari shows him the state of Nerv's headquarters he's shocked which makes him regret choosing not to pilot. In fact, the first thing the camera points to is Kaji's watermelon patch. A place Shinji has become attached to, not to mention that that place belongs to someone he became friends with. Doesn't sound like someone that didn't care about the world. Rei 2 getting absorbed gives him a big extra push. He did want to save her or at the very least destroy the 10th angel without necessarily destroying the world. It isn't until he's consumed by his anger and awakens that he decides to get Rei back at any cost. It also would be better not to take everything he says at face value especially when his emotions take over. Another example of this is when he says he already made his mind up about not piloting right before said scene or when he says he mustn't run away. Sometimes it's fine to run away. Just because a character says something it doesn't mean that he/she is correct or even being honest about how they feel.

By the way, I wouldn't classify Shinji as an escapist or at the very least a pure escapist. While it's true he uses his S-DAT to not listen to the outside world unlike his father he does interact with others like Touji, Kensuke, Misato, Asuka and Kaji. He even talks about tough topics with Kaji like Misato's reason for not going with them to the water plant trip, finding enjoyment and suffering while doing something in particular, etc. He even opens up to Asuka and finds a reason for why he pilots Eva: to receive appraisal from his father. That's what makes Shinji different from Gendo. Even when he's feeling at his worst and he may feel annoyed from interacting with others he keeps trying to understand them. He keeps moving forward.

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Postby AsukaisLiterallyMe » Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:54 pm

To be frank, Shinji is still a hardcore escapist. His father had him beat by a country mile, but Shinji still wasted a lot of precious time (especially in NGE). He had people he could call friends, had Misato basically forcing herself on him to socialize him, but the kid was still a pretty serial escapist.

He was, writing-wise, the weakest character in the rebuilds. He's "redeemed", but everyone else developed more/better.

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Postby ChrisTamv » Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:41 pm

I don't think is fair to reduce Shinji at the end of 2.0 like that. When Mari shows him the state of Nerv's headquarters he's shocked which makes him regret choosing not to pilot. In fact, the first thing the camera points to is Kaji's watermelon patch. A place Shinji has become attached to, not to mention that that place belongs to someone he became friends with. Doesn't sound like someone that didn't care about the world. Rei 2 getting absorbed gives him a big extra push. He did want to save her or at the very least destroy the 10th angel without necessarily destroying the world. It isn't until he's consumed by his anger and awakens that he decides to get Rei back at any cost. It also would be better not to take everything he says at face value especially when his emotions take over. Another example of this is when he says he already made his mind up about not piloting right before said scene or when he says he mustn't run away. Sometimes it's fine to run away. Just because a character says something it doesn't mean that he/she is correct or even being honest about how they feel.


Honestly, after everything that went out in 2.0 I think Shinji's delirium while he was saving Rei was most probably him being very honest. During the watermelon scene the 2 main themes at play are Shinji's dislike for painful things and lack of direction, as he still hasn't found anything he likes doing (both classic symptoms of escapists), as well as his responsibility to protect Katsuragi (which Kaji asks him to do), and by extent perhaps everyone else as well. I guess you could maybe interpret the ending as Shinji fulfilling said duty, but then his delirium makes zero sense in that context, and him being in the heat of the moment is imo not a sufficient justification at all considering the presentation and what comes after.

By the way, I wouldn't classify Shinji as an escapist or at the very least a pure escapist. While it's true he uses his S-DAT to not listen to the outside world unlike his father he does interact with others like Touji, Kensuke, Misato, Asuka and Kaji. He even talks about tough topics with Kaji like Misato's reason for not going with them to the water plant trip, finding enjoyment and suffering while doing something in particular, etc. He even opens up to Asuka and finds a reason for why he pilots Eva: to receive appraisal from his father. That's what makes Shinji different from Gendo. Even when he's feeling at his worst and he may feel annoyed from interacting with others he keeps trying to understand them. He keeps moving forward.


Shinji has his ups and downs but he is no Gendo, even though he gets quite close at times. However, don't get me wrong; as I specified, even hardcore escapists have moments in which they deviate from such behavior, and perhaps Shinji's also had other, more noble reasons to take action in 2.0's finale, however I believe they were completely secondary to his true desires, stemming from years of trauma and abused and topped off with him losing literally everything he built in 2.0 in a matter of hours. This interpretation is especially consequential with what comes after in the story, so I think I'll keep it.

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Postby Konja7 » Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:18 pm

View Original PostChrisTamv wrote:Honestly, after everything that went out in 2.0 I think Shinji's delirium while he was saving Rei was most probably him being very honest. During the watermelon scene the 2 main themes at play are Shinji's dislike for painful things and lack of direction, as he still hasn't found anything he likes doing (both classic symptoms of escapists), as well as his responsibility to protect Katsuragi (which Kaji asks him to do), and by extent perhaps everyone else as well. I guess you could maybe interpret the ending as Shinji fulfilling said duty, but then his delirium makes zero sense in that context, and him being in the heat of the moment is imo not a sufficient justification at all considering the presentation and what comes after.

True. I don't think Shinji really understand all the implications of his words, but he was pretty honest when he says he doesn't care about the World at the end of 2.0.

At that point, Shinji's only goal was to save Rei. It doesn't seem he really care about duty at that point.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:56 pm

View Original PostChrisTamv wrote:This interpretation is mainly about Shinji's behavior. And yes, even maniac escapists have their moments of assuming responsibility and acting bravely. That's... Kind of the whole point of Shinji's character since day 1 after all... However, Shinji at the end of 2.0 became Gendo 2.0. He was already at a bad spot, he lost the only person he thought that mattered in this world, and his response to all of this was to reject the world, his own self, and go beyond the laws of physics out of pure despair just and only to be together again with said person (not even to really live together with them again!)

3.0 + 1.0 reinforces this further by drawing explicit parallels between these two character moments, and they're almost the same, down to specific actions and the sequence in which they occurred.

See, I get what the movies tries to tell me, that Shinji is a Gendo in the making, but the thing here that I disagree with both the form and the content of it.
As other people wrote above, I just can't see how a 14 years kid drafted through guilt-trip in a deadly position who, the day after already losing someone he cares about and witnessing someone else he cares about being eaten alive, decided that he should act because bad things can happen even without him around and would rather fight to protect those he cares about instead of for "duty" or "the world", accidentally triggering a world-ending power of his robot that was kept ignorant of its existence on purpose precisely to have said situation happen; can be considered in any way similar to the grown-ass adult who knows all about the secrets of said giant robots and withheld that information on purpose because he wanted it to happen and engineered everything for it to happen, including his children's entire life for an entire decade (yes because if Gendo's plan hinged on Shinji breaking the limits of unit 01 to awake it to save Rei and had gone as far as implanting in her a fondness for Shinji, then logically that means that Gendo couldn't let Shinji grow up in an environment that wouldn't make him a loner eager for affection, so Shinji's living conditions before coming to Tokyo-3 must had been also engineered by him), and then doubled doubled down on it for nearly a decade and half afterwards, all because he's a selfish prick who refuses to live to a world without Yui and is ready to exterminate everyone for it.

Even in the more direct parallels that the movies want to make between them both, it can't go beyond the most superficial level: they both physically looked alike at the same age, are bit of loners and like to listen to music. That's it, that's literally the only similarities between them, and when the movies portrays them when left to their own, they are nearly polar opposites:
  • Gendo grew up alone and unwilling to connect to others due to a sense of superiority and inability to accept that people aren't open books that he can read, then he meets one woman with whom he can connect (and seemingly only after some intense wingwomaning from Mari) and when he tragically lose her, decide to throw away everything he had and that sacrificing the entire planet to bring her back to him is okay, he's never shown giving anything to anyone, never having any niceties (look at Rei's apartment, how could anyone decent could make someone live in a dump like that?!), the one nice thing he's seen agreeing to do - go to the diner party organized by Rei - had to be basically ripped off from him because he juxtaposed Rei's request with Yui's, and his few humanizing moments (all of them with Rei) were by the character's own admission only because he thought he saw the shadow of Yui in her, and once he came to the conclusion that this is not the case, completely wrote her off as worthless outside of her usefulness as a tool.
  • Meanwhile, Shinji at the same age, already managed to make two great friends, had a love interest, another love interest/confident/sibling and a guardian who's trying to get into being a surrogate parent for him. He's shown caring for the people around him, doing nice things for them such as preparing meals, hanging out with them (even ditching his SDAT while doing it), inviting them when he get to visit the sea-life preserving Aquarium, inquiring about their health and their families, and even risking his life for them, not for personal gains or get something out of them, but out of genuine attachment and goodness of heart.
Shinji is already ten time the man Gendo is before the big narrative conflict mid-saga even starts, and everytime he gets to act similarly to his father, it was either as a consequence of Gendo's actions or outright engineered by Gendo.

And it's the same thing with Kaworu really: the story want to depict him pushing his happiness to Shinji as being similar to Gendo who pushed his happiness to Yui, yet completely ignores all context around Kaworu. His life is basically to wake up everytime in SEELE's custody and being constantly monitored and probably terminated if he shows any sign of not being onboard with their plans, his only time of freedom being the few days between being sent at NERV and not being able to control his angelic nature pushing him to fuse with Adam or Lilith. And even with that, he's never seen manipulating or killing anyone in his objective to "make Shinji happy", by the little we saw of his time as Commander of NERV, he's even shown able to make great friends with Kaji.



As for the content, okay, Shinji didn't had purely selfless intentions when he piloted at the end of 2.0, and I want to say: so what?
He acted more for personal reasons that resonated with him more than a general sense of duty? Congratulation, you just described 99.9% of humanity.

The story keep proling about maturity, but has an absolutist and frankly, kind of toxic view of what it means: Shinji must be perfect in his behavior and motivations, perfectly rational and decisive when pitted against the infected Eva where the girl he likes is trapped and his commanding officer's answer to him expressing his fear to hurt her being that he doesn't give a shit and should just kill her, perfectly dutiful instead of resigning because he realized that his hierarchy was ready to throw their pilots under the bus and they successfully tested an automatic pilot that means that he doesn't have to put up with that bullshit anymore, perfectly selfless when he fought against the strongest Angel that obliterated everything and everyone protecting Lilith, perfectly trusting and understanding when the people of WILLE told him an insane story that 14 years have passed while Asuka is the same, that he didn't saved Rei while giving the proof that he did and that Rei in front of him is not Rei while they try their damnest to kill her, with their only argument being that they'll blow off his head if he moves, and finally perfectly calm and reasonable when handling the spears after the entire previous hour of the movie was Gendo and Fuyutsuki methodically gaslighting him to insanity and being put against an enraged Pitbull for whom the term "deescalation" is as swear word despite his repetitive attempts to explain to her what he's doing and his copilot deciding to not do anything while he repetitively screamed at him for back-up before telling him to give up just when he managed to fend off said Pitbull and get the only opening they would get.
And any failure or moment of weakness is punished with full force by the writers as if the character deliberately acted while knowing what would happen.

And in the end of Thrice he finally get up to the standards of "maturity" held by the story... and he's not mature, he's inhuman. Shinji serenely going through the whole Wunder, convincing everyone to let him pilot (despite Gendo having fucked off with Unit 01 ten minutes ago...) with a few choice words about how he "knows the smell of the earth" and giving Misato some closure letting her do in peace the lover's suicide she postponed for 14 years, making his father's resolve crumble and have him accept to give up his plan that he worked on for two decades and half with one phrase then rapid-firing giving life-changing life advice to everyone thanks to his newfound wisdom and erasing the circumstances that formed these issues in the first place before ascending to godhood to restore the planet to its pristine state and erasing from reality all the Evas and technologies that let this happen (Neon Genesis ffs!) and leaving for another plane of existence where he even gets to fluster the super flirty all-knowing big boob girl is a fucking caricature of character development, akin to a half-assed "fixfic" where Shinji becomes super strong and singlehandedly save the day and solve every characters' issues.

For all its bleakness, End of Evangelion having Shinji still misstepping after Instrumentality showed that while he did changed, connecting with other will still be hard and there will still be missteps and failures, but now he has the courage to still try.


I think it was BernardoCairo who said it best: 3.0 was how it is to be an adult, sometimes you fuck up and things don't go as you wanted even despite your best intentions, and you have to live with the consequences and deal with the new situation at hand to the best of your abilities; while Thrice has a childish view of adulthood, where you're super strong, have all the answers and solve all the problems and everyone agrees with you...

In a way, Anno, in his desire to give a farewell to his franchise and despite talking about escapism for decades, ultimately crafted the ultimate escapist ending, where the main character get to erase all of his mistakes as if nothing ever happened and didn't even had to deal with the aftermath as he leaves to another world with a cute big breasted girl in tow.
And the worst is that I'm not even sure that Anno realized this, because from the moment they get in the anti-universe it's clear that the remaining time is more about the author talking about his franchise through his two self-inserts (Gendo and Shinji) and giving the golden happy end to all the characters that he "tortured" through the years instead of making a thematically coherent ending.



View Original PostChrisTamv wrote:I'm not going to deny the romantic implications in the last scene, but I really don't think these two are a couple in the end of 3.0+1.0. Besides the VA Director for Thrice confirming that the scene wasn't directed romantically, I don't think Mari's symbolic role in the Rebuilds, which is surprisingly well - established, is really compatible with such an interpretation, nor even that such a relationship logically makes any sense unless another major timeskip happened before the final scene at the train station.

If the goal was to portray the scene non-romantically, then they did a very bad job on it, because even in Japan a good half of the fandom are of the opinion that they are a couple: we have a man and a woman talking about each other's nice smell and big boobs and the man calling the woman "as cute as ever" to fluster her before leaving hand in hand, in public, in Japan.
I'm pretty sure that if you show that scene to anyone who didn't saw Evangelion and the Rebuild, their conclusion will be that they're a couple.
Last edited by ElMariachi on Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Konja7 » Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:34 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:In a way, Anno, in his desire to give a farewell to his franchise and despite talking about escapism for decades, ultimately crafted the ultimate escapist ending, where the main character get to erase all of his mistakes as if nothing ever happened and didn't even had to deal with the aftermath as he leaves to another world with a cute big breasted girl in tow.
And the worst is that I'm not even sure that Anno realized this, because from the moment they get in the anti-universe it's clear that the remaining time is more about the author talking about his franchise through his two self-inserts (Gendo and Shinji) and giving the golden happy end to all the characters that he "tortured" through the years instead of making a thematically coherent ending.


I don't think Anno sees this ending as escapist ending. Anno probably sees it as Shinji growing up (after received support in Village 3) allows him to deal with his father and move on with his life.

I remember that I saw an official drawing of Eva-01 and Eva-13 fighting that mentioned a father and a son fighting for eternity. I suspect that was a possible ending, but it was (fortunately) prevented.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:45 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I don't think Anno sees this ending as escapist ending. Anno probably sees it as Shinji growing up (after received support in Village 3) allows him to deal with his father and move on with his life.

I remember that I saw an official drawing of Eva-01 and Eva-13 fighting that mentioned a father and a son fighting for eternity. I suspect that was a possible ending, but it was (fortunately) prevented.

But that's the problem: it wasn't "growing up", it was becoming a messiah and ascending to godhood, and it wasn't "moving on with his life", it was literally burning every bridges he had left by first trying to kill himself then going into another universe.

As for the "eternal fight ending" between Shinji and Gendo, that was in one of Yamashita's tweets, where he shows a drawing that Tsurumaki asked him to do of 01 and 13 fighting for eternity, long after their respective pilots' body died.
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Postby AsukaisLiterallyMe » Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:52 pm

In a way, Anno, in his desire to give a farewell to his franchise and despite talking about escapism for decades, ultimately crafted the ultimate escapist ending, where the main character get to erase all of his mistakes as if nothing ever happened and didn't even had to deal with the aftermath as he leaves to another world with a cute big breasted girl in tow.
And the worst is that I'm not even sure that Anno realized this, because from the moment they get in the anti-universe it's clear that the remaining time is more about the author talking about his franchise through his two self-inserts (Gendo and Shinji) and giving the golden happy end to all the characters that he "tortured" through the years instead of making a thematically coherent ending.


Yep, thank you.

I don't think there any other ways to view that scene at the train station as anything but romantic. I'm very much the complete opposite of a "shipper", I don't consume (I hate that term when used for art) fiction with shipping goggles; I allow the writer and the characters within the writer's work to tell me what their relationship is.

Even if in the real world he doesn't get Mari as an SO, the train platform scene heavily implies and presents a romantic attachment there.

I might seem to prefer bleaker endings but that's not by "choice" (bleaker endings have tended to be part of better written fiction in my experience), but I can love a happy ending just fine.

Thrice's happy ending is just strangely self-serving, or worst, pandering to people who wanted these characters to catch a break. I'm not sure which is more true in the end.

Almost like it's some strange bizarro world ending in a timeline where everything went perfectly well in time honored shounen tradition (I mean...the entire third act is just the ultimate wish fulfillment shounen thing ever).

So head canon, there's a different timeline where there's an actually satisfying ending to the series.

End of Evangelion 2.

Please don't though, let this series sleep now.

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Postby Konja7 » Sun Mar 26, 2023 5:39 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:As for the "eternal fight ending" between Shinji and Gendo, that was in one of Yamashita's tweets, where he shows a drawing that Tsurumaki asked him to do of 01 and 13 fighting for eternity, long after their respective pilots' body died.

Thanks for the clarification.

I suspect this could be the fate of the conflict between Shinji and Gendo if Shinji didn't find a different way to deal with his father (other than fighting).

In 3.0+1.0, there is a moment in the battle between Eva-01 and Eva-13 where Shinji realizes that continuing to fight won't lead to any resolution because they are evenly matched. Shinji remember his friends (Kensuke, Touji and Rei Q) and decides to change his way of facing his father.

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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:42 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:Thanks for the clarification.

I suspect this could be the fate of the conflict between Shinji and Gendo if Shinji didn't find a different way to deal with his father (other than fighting).

In 3.0+1.0, there is a moment in the battle between Eva-01 and Eva-13 where Shinji realizes that continuing to fight won't lead to any resolution because they are evenly matched. Shinji remember his friends (Kensuke, Touji and Rei Q) and decides to change his way of facing his father.

I found the tweet:

View Original PostAutomatic translation wrote:Under Mr. Tsurumaki's instructions, we also simulated a father and son who will continue to fight for eternity, even if they lose each other's bodies, in the distance of space and time where it is no longer clear what happened to the world. at the end of everything #Shin Evangelion



ChrisTamv wrote:During the watermelon scene the 2 main themes at play are Shinji's dislike for painful things and lack of direction, as he still hasn't found anything he likes doing (both classic symptoms of escapists)

Interestingly, it's implied that he actually does have a hobby in astronomy: he mentions to Kaworu in 3.0 that he liked gazing at the stars since he was a child, and IIRC you can see astronomy books and posters of constellations in his room in 2.0.
We can only guess why he doesn't mention it to Kaji when he asks him if he has any hobby, my guess is that he doesn't say anything by fear of being judged and/or because he doesn't know him well enough to open himself on his hobbies.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby AlphaZero » Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:58 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:The story keep proling about maturity, but has an absolutist and frankly, kind of toxic view of what it means: Shinji must be perfect in his behavior and motivations, perfectly rational and decisive when pitted against the infected Eva where the girl he likes is trapped and his commanding officer's answer to him expressing his fear to hurt her being that he doesn't give a shit and should just kill her, perfectly dutiful instead of resigning because he realized that his hierarchy was ready to throw their pilots under the bus and they successfully tested an automatic pilot that means that he doesn't have to put up with that bullshit anymore, perfectly selfless when he fought against the strongest Angel that obliterated everything and everyone protecting Lilith, perfectly trusting and understanding when the people of WILLE told him an insane story that 14 years have passed while Asuka is the same, that he didn't saved Rei while giving the proof that he did and that Rei in front of him is not Rei while they try their damnest to kill her, with their only argument being that they'll blow off his head if he moves, and finally perfectly calm and reasonable when handling the spears after the entire previous hour of the movie was Gendo and Fuyutsuki methodically gaslighting him to insanity and being put against an enraged Pitbull for whom the term "deescalation" is as swear word despite his repetitive attempts to explain to her what he's doing and his copilot deciding to not do anything while he repetitively screamed at him for back-up before telling him to give up just when he managed to fend off said Pitbull and get the only opening they would get.
And any failure or moment of weakness is punished with full force by the writers as if the character deliberately acted while knowing what would happen.

And in the end of Thrice he finally get up to the standards of "maturity" held by the story... and he's not mature, he's inhuman. Shinji serenely going through the whole Wunder, convincing everyone to let him pilot (despite Gendo having fucked off with Unit 01 ten minutes ago...) with a few choice words about how he "knows the smell of the earth" and giving Misato some closure letting her do in peace the lover's suicide she postponed for 14 years, making his father's resolve crumble and have him accept to give up his plan that he worked on for two decades and half with one phrase then rapid-firing giving life-changing life advice to everyone thanks to his newfound wisdom and erasing the circumstances that formed these issues in the first place before ascending to godhood to restore the planet to its pristine state and erasing from reality all the Evas and technologies that let this happen (Neon Genesis ffs!) and leaving for another plane of existence where he even gets to fluster the super flirty all-knowing big boob girl is a fucking caricature of character development, akin to a half-assed "fixfic" where Shinji becomes super strong and singlehandedly save the day and solve every characters' issues.

I agree with most of your comment but there are some things I want to comment on.
First of all, that Shinji Wille scene I always find it so flawed that it would've been better if the movie started with Shinji at Neo Nerv instead. That way you don't have to come up for a reason for Shinji leaving the Wunder or being kidnapped but the writers wanted at least the scene of Unit 2 retrieving Unit 1 to show Shinji and Asuka's feelings for each other(Shinji using the laser to destroy the drone and Asuka's reaction to it). Sounds like they wanted both ideas but the problem is they can't have them both. Even then I think there are ways to show each other's feelings without that beginning scene but what's done is done.
Then, in the Unit 13 vs Unit 2 fight I think there are some important mistakes that can be easily fixed. First, Shinji's desperation for getting the spears is not believable because it isn't build up at all. For example, there's a line where he says he's doing it for everyone's sake. If that line would've been moved before Kaworu tells him to stop going for the spears then it would've helped that scene. It also makes absolute no sense that he stops listening to the guy that lifted him up from falling into full depression and despair just like that. Honestly, lacking any introspection from Shinji's mind really hurts 3.0.
In the middle of the fight Kaworu is being controlled by Gendo using the key and that's why he can't really do anything(I mean he looks sick and like he is about to vomit). However that can be avoided if he just screamed "Impact" when Shinji asked him why he shouldn't get the spears(he can still talk after all).
The problem by pointing all this out is that I'm basically fixing basic mistakes and writing the movie for the writers when that is their job not the audience's.
The weirdest thing is for 3.333 of all the things they could've fixed they deleted Asuka's line of "Who are you?" when talking to Rei 6 which is not necessarily a mistake as it could mean that she knows it's a Rei clone but asking which clone is she.

As an aside, when I saw the Shinji and Mari scene at the end of 4.0 I thought of it more like Shinji showing off his confidence rather than him actually flirting with Mari. In fact, I'm shocked that them being a couple was the interpretation of the majority of the audience but that's just my view of it.

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Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

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Postby Konja7 » Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:26 am

View Original PostAlphaZero wrote:First of all, that Shinji Wille scene I always find it so flawed that it would've been better if the movie started with Shinji at Neo Nerv instead. That way you don't have to come up for a reason for Shinji leaving the Wunder or being kidnapped but the writers wanted at least the scene of Unit 2 retrieving Unit 1 to show Shinji and Asuka's feelings for each other(Shinji using the laser to destroy the drone and Asuka's reaction to it). Sounds like they wanted both ideas but the problem is they can't have them both. Even then I think there are ways to show each other's feelings without that beginning scene but what's done is done.

I don't think showing Asuka's feelings was the reason for the scene of Shinji in the Wunder.

The point of Shinji in the Wunder was to show how WILLE (and most of humanity) feels about Shinji. It was necessary to explain Shinji's isolation and despair when he is in NERV.




View Original PostAlphaZero wrote:Then, in the Unit 13 vs Unit 2 fight I think there are some important mistakes that can be easily fixed. First, Shinji's desperation for getting the spears is not believable because it isn't build up at all. For example, there's a line where he says he's doing it for everyone's sake. If that line would've been moved before Kaworu tells him to stop going for the spears then it would've helped that scene. It also makes absolute no sense that he stops listening to the guy that lifted him up from falling into full depression and despair just like that. Honestly, lacking any introspection from Shinji's mind really hurts 3.0.
In the middle of the fight Kaworu is being controlled by Gendo using the key and that's why he can't really do anything(I mean he looks sick and like he is about to vomit). However that can be avoided if he just screamed "Impact" when Shinji asked him why he shouldn't get the spears(he can still talk after all).
The problem by pointing all this out is that I'm basically fixing basic mistakes and writing the movie for the writers when that is their job not the audience's.

The thing is Kaworu didn't know the Fourth Impact will start. Shinji taking the Spears of Longinus wouldn't start the Fourth Impact, the trigger for the Fourth Impact was Kaworu being turned into the 13th Angel.

Shinji: Is it my fault...? Did I... Did I do this?
Kaworu: It's not your fault. It happened because I turned into the 13th Angel. I'm the trigger.


This is the reason why it's so difficult for Kaworu to explain the situation. At that point, he knows it's pretty bad to take both Spears, but he doesn't really know what will happen, since he never expected to be turned into the 13th Angel.

Taking the Spears still has a role in the Fourth Impact, since it frees the 12th Angel, which is necessary to awaken Eva-13, but it isn't the trigger for the Fourth Impact.


PS: Shinji saying says he's doing it for everyone's sake isn't really true (he is lying to himself). In 3.0, Shinji's attitude is trying to escape the pain and the guilt. The movie is pretty clear about that.

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Postby Blockio » Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:24 pm

I'm not positive how reliable a narrator Kaworu is in this scene. His angelic status definitely plays a part in it, no two ways about that, but since he does care about Shinji's happiness (or at least some form of happiness for the Shinji in his head), he has an incentive to... "gaslight" is technically the right word here, but it's a very disingenuous use of the term; he would have reason to downplay Shinji's role and upplay his own to take the edge off of the death that he knows is coming for him.
This obviously does not work, and, rolling with the assumption that he was telling something of a white lie there, the fact that Kaworu thinks it would work works quite nicely with his line in Shin about imposing his version of happiness onto Shinji.

What I think is a likely scenario is that Kaworu was the (or perhaps a) final piece to the puzzle, something that would not have been sufficient in a vacuum, but for the sake of Shinji's peace of mind, he tries to paint himself as the only factor
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Postby Konja7 » Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:31 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:I'm not positive how reliable a narrator Kaworu is in this scene. His angelic status definitely plays a part in it, no two ways about that, but since he does care about Shinji's happiness (or at least some form of happiness for the Shinji in his head), he has an incentive to... "gaslight" is technically the right word here, but it's a very disingenuous use of the term; he would have reason to downplay Shinji's role and upplay his own to take the edge off of the death that he knows is coming for him.
This obviously does not work, and, rolling with the assumption that he was telling something of a white lie there, the fact that Kaworu thinks it would work works quite nicely with his line in Shin about imposing his version of happiness onto Shinji.

What I think is a likely scenario is that Kaworu was the (or perhaps a) final piece to the puzzle, something that would not have been sufficient in a vacuum, but for the sake of Shinji's peace of mind, he tries to paint himself as the only factor


Although downplaying Shinji's responsability is likely a factor, I think that Kaworu sincerely considers his role as a trigger to be the main responsible for the Fourth Impact (even if he doesn't wanted or expected to turn into the 13th Angel). It fits that he feels Shinji has responsibility in the Third Impact for being the trigger.

In 3.0+1.0, we saw that the role of the Black Moon Spear in the Fourth Impact is to go through the Gate of Guf and begin the "purification" of souls. It's extremely likely the the two Spears of Longinus would fullfil the same role in 3.0, but the Fourth Impact was "stopped" before that.

So, at that point, Shinji would responsible for freeing Mark-06 (Rei Q would free the 12th Angel from that). This still gave Shinji's responsibility since Eva-13 eating the 12th Angel is important to awaken Eva-13, which is also necessary for the Fourth Impact.
Last edited by Konja7 on Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Blockio » Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:38 pm

We're pretty much zeroing in on the same thing, yeah.
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Postby Konja7 » Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:54 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:We're pretty much zeroing in on the same thing, yeah.

Yeah. Sometimes I talk too much.

My main point was to explain that Kaworu didn't know what will happen when Shinji takes the Spears (since he didn't expect to turn into the 13th Angel), so he couldn't explain the situation to Shinji.

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:38 pm

View Original PostAlphaZero wrote:I agree with most of your comment but there are some things I want to comment on.
First of all, that Shinji Wille scene I always find it so flawed that it would've been better if the movie started with Shinji at Neo Nerv instead. That way you don't have to come up for a reason for Shinji leaving the Wunder or being kidnapped but the writers wanted at least the scene of Unit 2 retrieving Unit 1 to show Shinji and Asuka's feelings for each other(Shinji using the laser to destroy the drone and Asuka's reaction to it). Sounds like they wanted both ideas but the problem is they can't have them both. Even then I think there are ways to show each other's feelings without that beginning scene but what's done is done.
Then, in the Unit 13 vs Unit 2 fight I think there are some important mistakes that can be easily fixed.

First, Shinji's desperation for getting the spears is not believable because it isn't build up at all. For example, there's a line where he says he's doing it for everyone's sake. If that line would've been moved before Kaworu tells him to stop going for the spears then it would've helped that scene. It also makes absolute no sense that he stops listening to the guy that lifted him up from falling into full depression and despair just like that. Honestly, lacking any introspection from Shinji's mind really hurts 3.0.

In the middle of the fight Kaworu is being controlled by Gendo using the key and that's why he can't really do anything(I mean he looks sick and like he is about to vomit). However that can be avoided if he just screamed "Impact" when Shinji asked him why he shouldn't get the spears(he can still talk after all).
The problem by pointing all this out is that I'm basically fixing basic mistakes and writing the movie for the writers when that is their job not the audience's.
The weirdest thing is for 3.333 of all the things they could've fixed they deleted Asuka's line of "Who are you?" when talking to Rei 6 which is not necessarily a mistake as it could mean that she knows it's a Rei clone but asking which clone is she.

For your fist point, Shinji being at WILLE is actually important because, as Konja7 wrote, it serves as the basis of Shinji's despair and of his motivation to try to pilot one last time to fix his mistakes.

For your second point, all of the movie since his arrival at neo-NERV was actually about building up his desperation: it's not a coincidence if Shinji received Toji's old shirt as new clothes, which drove him to finally ask to Kaworu the question he dreaded: what happened to everyone? And just after Kaworu's traumabomb, Shinji tries to find solace on the fact that at least he saved Rei (while it's clear that it's not really a comfort) and the next scene we have Fuyutsuki inviting him to a game of Shogi where he reveals that oops, he actually didn't saved her, everything he did was for nothing, he really only brought bad things and is actually a scourge for the world that would had better never been born!
Cue mental breakdown, and Kaworu didn't really lifted him from full despair, he only barely managed to have him hang by a thread by telling him that they can fix everything and even putting the explosive collar on himself to convince him of his dedication.
But keep in mind that Shinji is tethering on the edge of madness and despair when they pilot EVA-13, the fight down there was just the last push to have him completely lose it.

As for your third and last point, sure that could had been a way to prevent the catastrophe, but well, the movie needed the catastrophe to happen for the story to continue, so the characters don't do what they should had done to prevent it. And I always thought that this scene would had worked better if the theme it wanted to carry was that of miscommunication, and for a long time I thought that it was indeed what it was going for: that everyone talked over each others' head, without bothering to try to explain themselves and instead assuming the worst of the other, exactly like what happened earlier in the movie when Shinji left the Wunder, even thought back then it wasn't anyone's fault really (except Gendo's of course), because there were still too many information that Shinji didn't had the time to learn and there was no time as Rei Q was impersonating Rei and Mark.09 trying to get him out. But with Thrice, it's clear that this was not what the story meant, but instead that Shinji is guilty of not obeying like a good and proper Japanese boy.


View Original PostKonja7 wrote:The thing is Kaworu didn't know the Fourth Impact will start. Shinji taking the Spears of Longinus wouldn't start the Fourth Impact, the trigger for the Fourth Impact was Kaworu being turned into the 13th Angel.

Shinji: Is it my fault...? Did I... Did I do this?
Kaworu: It's not your fault. It happened because I turned into the 13th Angel. I'm the trigger.


This is the reason why it's so difficult for Kaworu to explain the situation. At that point, he knows it's pretty bad to take both Spears, but he doesn't really know what will happen, since he never expected to be turned into the 13th Angel.

Taking the Spears still has a role in the Fourth Impact, since it frees the 12th Angel, which is necessary to awaken Eva-13, but it isn't the trigger for the Fourth Impact.

Then what was Kaworu expecting then?
No, seriously: what was Kaworu's plan? What they were supposed to do with the two spears? Is there a notice in the SDSS stating "press the green gem on the Cassius spear with the one-pointed end of the Longinus spear during twelve (12) seconds to reset the world to factory settings"?
We're supposed to believe that he had absolutely no idea of what's going on despite having been the Commander of NERV when Third Impact happened? That after living through thousands of years and timelines where SEELE and Gendo's plans in every single of them was to trigger an Impact to start Instrumentality, that he couldn't guess what would be their motivations for double-crossing him and thus couldn't try to tell to Shinji that yes, Asuka might be right, an Impact is likely to happen if they touch something?

And even once shit hit the fan: he didn't know that touching with an Adam, a Seed of Life fused with an ex-awakened Evangelion that was fused with an Angel would probably trigger an Impact ( :| ), so he became the 13th Angel and thus the Trigger for Fourth Impact: what does that even means?
Why did he became the 13th Angel? How did it happen? Why is it important? And what the bloody hell is a "Trigger"?! The term is repeated by everyone through the movie, yet we still don't have any idea of what the fuck is a "Trigger" and what does that mean. We even have Mari chiming it that "wait, there shouldn't be a 13th Angel, damn Gendo's plan is now clear, he played us all like a fiddle!" but we still don't know what does that mean!

Looking back, the end of 3.0 was a microcosm of what the end of Thrice would be, where we get bombarded with unintelligible technobabble only used to try justify what's happening in the current moment and never mentioned or relevant again, except that back then we still had the prospect of one remaining movie that could explain in due time what happened.

And again, that could had worked if the narrative that this scene wanted to show was about miscommunication, how everyone talked over each others' head without bothering to try to explain themselves and assuming the worst of the other. But no, Shinji's sin to not be perfect and not opening his arms because obviously, they won't kill him when they said that they will kill him while trying to kill him, how narrow-minded and selfish he is!


View Original PostKonja7 wrote:PS: Shinji saying says he's doing it for everyone's sake isn't really true (he is lying to himself). In 3.0, Shinji's attitude is trying to escape the pain and the guilt. The movie is pretty clear about that.

Like, you keep writing that he's an immature and selfish brat because he just wants to escape the pain and guilt, but it's not just like the pain of doing something scary that you rather wouldn't do and the guilt of an oopsie: he killed the world! Everything is dead! Everyone he cared about are dead, those who survived completely blame him and hate him and want to kill him! From his point of view, the last image he had of Misato is her pointing a detonator to his head and threatening to kill him if he didn't obey and he got away by pure miracle, Asuka just rejected all his attempt of deescalation and screamed that she will kill him: they are here to execute him!
When Kaworu tell him to stop without explaining anything or giving him any other plan, what he's actually asking him is to just give up and accept to walk to the firing squad. And Shinji is supposed to just shrug it all off and accept it by pure blind faith?

So I repeat what I wrote earlier: he doesn't have pure and selfless intentions when he acted, so what?
How does that change anything? Would a pure and selfless Shinji had shrugged off Gendo gaslighing him to insanity and the implied several sleepless nights and the stress of Asuka jumping at his throat to vociferate that she's going to kill him and when Kaworu told him to give up, to just accept, shrug his shoulders and accept his execution but that's alright, because that's what people want and that's what's expected?
Is this the ideal the movies wants us to follow? To mindlessly do what you're being told even in the face of harmful behavior?
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Postby ChrisTamv » Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:27 pm

Even in the more direct parallels that the movies want to make between them both, it can't go beyond the most superficial level: they both physically looked alike at the same age, are bit of loners and like to listen to music. That's it, that's literally the only similarities between them, and when the movies portrays them when left to their own, they are nearly polar opposites:


That's not the case at all though. Those are relatively superficial parallels, sure, but you glossed over the most important ones by far. When Gendo lost Yui he had committed no crimes, nor did he have any bad intentions we know of. He was in a horrible mental state and perhaps hated people like many people who suffer from such mental issues do, but he wasn't a bad person, and was also much, much younger. It all happened when he lost Yui, when instead of grieving and eventually trying to stand up again to see what he can do better in the future, which is the mature behavior 3.0+1.0 actually preaches for, he raged out, rejected reality by trying to revive her through Rei and the Human Instrumentality Project (he wasn't even aware of its existence before this point!), and then closes himself up completely. And how does Shinji react to the (near) losses of Asuka, Rei II, and Kaworu? He does nothing but throw a destructive fit when Asuka is killed, he rejects the fate of the entire world and of his own self just and only to bring back Rei II, and then he completely gives up after Kaworu's death and closes himself up. Shinji and Gendo are similar down to the sequence in which they reacted to tragedies, at a point in their lives when they already were very similar and had both even made an effort to heal.

So yes, the parallels drawn between Shinji and Gendo are more than substantial and valid.

And it's the same thing with Kaworu really: the story want to depict him pushing his happiness to Shinji as being similar to Gendo who pushed his happiness to Yui, yet completely ignores all context around Kaworu. His life is basically to wake up everytime in SEELE's custody and being constantly monitored and probably terminated if he shows any sign of not being onboard with their plans, his only time of freedom being the few days between being sent at NERV and not being able to control his angelic nature pushing him to fuse with Adam or Lilith. And even with that, he's never seen manipulating or killing anyone in his objective to "make Shinji happy", by the little we saw of his time as Commander of NERV, he's even shown able to make great friends with Kaji.


Hmm okay I get where you're coming from with this one. Even though while Yui was alive the contexts are very similar, if you consider the rest of the story then yes the results of Gendo relying on another person completely for his own happiness are completely incomparable to Kaworu's wrongdoings while suffering from the same problem.

As for the content, okay, Shinji didn't had purely selfless intentions when he piloted at the end of 2.0, and I want to say: so what?
He acted more for personal reasons that resonated with him more than a general sense of duty? Congratulation, you just described 99.9% of humanity.

The story keep proling about maturity, but has an absolutist and frankly, kind of toxic view of what it means: Shinji must be perfect in his behavior and motivations, perfectly rational and decisive when pitted against the infected Eva where the girl he likes is trapped and his commanding officer's answer to him expressing his fear to hurt her being that he doesn't give a shit and should just kill her, perfectly ... when he resigned because he realized that his hierarchy was ready to throw their pilots under the bus and they successfully tested an automatic pilot that means that he doesn't have to put up with that bullshit anymore, perfectly selfless when he fought against the strongest Angel that obliterated everything and everyone protecting Lilith, perfectly trusting and understanding when the people of WILLE told him an insane story that 14 years have passed while Asuka is the same, that he didn't saved Rei while giving the proof that he did and that Rei in front of him is not Rei while they try their damnest to kill her, with their only argument being that they'll blow off his head if he moves, and finally perfectly calm and reasonable when handling the spears after the entire previous hour of the movie was Gendo and Fuyutsuki methodically gaslighting him to insanity and being put against an enraged Pitbull for whom the term "deescalation" is as swear word despite his repetitive attempts to explain to her what he's doing and his copilot deciding to not do anything while he repetitively screamed at him for back-up before telling him to give up just when he managed to fend off said Pitbull and get the only opening they would get.
And any failure or moment of weakness is punished with full force by the writers as if the character deliberately acted while knowing what would happen.


I'm sorry but I don't get your point. Are you arguing that every single one of Shinji's wrongdoings was just a little mishap that anyone would do and which don't say anything about him?

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't consider Shinji's genuine rejection of the entire world world and his own self as just "not purely selfless intentions" (hell, it's not even a selfish idea by definition). Nor would I consider his fundamental character trait of also being an escapist, which manifests itself in some way repeatedly, after each and every tragedy or difficulty he comes across, as just a simple "moment of weakness". Shinji's behavior, as you very accurately explained, is understandable in the context of what's happening around him and him being a traumatized kid. However, that doesn't change the the fact that many of his actions and thoughts are wrong and unhealthy (these two points aren't mutually exclusive of course), and that Shinji lives a major lie that will be challenged by the story as many times as it takes before he realizes the truth. The movie doesn't advocate for perfect people, after all Shinji's most mature reaction to tragedy ever in 3.0+1.0 has as its key element grief.

And in the end of Thrice he finally get up to the standards of "maturity" held by the story... and he's not mature, he's inhuman. Shinji serenely going through the whole Wunder, convincing everyone to let him pilot (despite Gendo having fucked off with Unit 01 ten minutes ago...) with a few choice words about how he "knows the smell of the earth" and giving Misato some closure letting her do in peace the lover's suicide she postponed for 14 years, making his father's resolve crumble and have him accept to give up his plan that he worked on for two decades and half with one phrase then rapid-firing giving life-changing life advice to everyone thanks to his newfound wisdom


Even though I have a problem with Shinji's excessive stoicism in a few moments towards the end of 3.0+1.0, he isn't inhuman, not at all. His growth is legitimate, and what happened at the Wunder was not as much the result of his own actions as it was the result of other characters individually getting over their own internal conflicts and realizing their circumstances. Such as Misato, in whose case this change of heart has been boiling since 3.0's first 20 minutes, who finally did the right thing, took some of the blame off Shinji's shoulders, and focused on the future as well as taking responsibility as a mother, not just a Captain. And then Midori and Sakura followed, who were affected by Misato, but mainly made their own self - realizations, the most important of which was pretty pragmatic in the sense that, there's nothing they can do about the past anymore, they're at the end of their rope, and so the only thing they can do is focus on the future by using their last option, even if that's Shinji.

My point is, Shinji didn't really do much here to sway them (he doesn't even say anything while almost all of the above is going on), except making progress at the Village which Misato found out about as shown in the scene in the Captain's quarters, which had a major role in catalyzing her change of heart at that specific point.

As for Gendo, again, Shinji really didn't do much. As it is the case with the next characters I'll talk about, it was mainly the environment of merged consciousness and his own individual realizations about how his extreme fixation on Yui resulted in him forgetting everything that matters in his life, and pushing everyone aside. Shinji ultimately just tries to do what no one except Yui has done for Gendo; he tried to understand him. Again, that was the catalyst, and it's this specific connection that mainly gets the message into Gendo's head, that he has been obsessively searching for his "Yui" for so long (his family, who loves and understands him) at the expense of everyone, even his own humanity, but has only found "Reis" instead (idyllic pre - programmed imitations with no soul of their own). And where did she finally find Yui? "Inside" Shinji, because Shinji also is that person he has been searching for, who he pushed to the side completely and tormented, all because of his sort - sighted obsession.

This extends to the other main characters' character conclusions too. Shinji didn't single - handedly solve anyone's problem. His very growth is also the result of the help he received from other people before him, and that's all he does in the end. He tries to help others, but the other characters are explicitly shown making the realizations by themselves, through sci - fi introspection Shinji simply enables, and mainly through discussions with other characters like Kensuke or Kaji.

and erasing the circumstances that formed these issues in the first place before ascending to godhood to restore the planet to its pristine state and erasing from reality all the Evas and technologies that let this happen (Neon Genesis ffs!) and leaving for another plane of existence where he even gets to fluster the super flirty all-knowing big boob girl is a fucking caricature of character development, akin to a half-assed "fixfic" where Shinji becomes super strong and singlehandedly save the day and solve every characters' issues.

For all its bleakness, End of Evangelion having Shinji still misstepping after Instrumentality showed that while he did changed, connecting with other will still be hard and there will still be missteps and failures, but now he has the courage to still try.

In a way, Anno, in his desire to give a farewell to his franchise and despite talking about escapism for decades, ultimately crafted the ultimate escapist ending, where the main character get to erase all of his mistakes as if nothing ever happened and didn't even had to deal with the aftermath as he leaves to another world with a cute big breasted girl in tow.
And the worst is that I'm not even sure that Anno realized this, because from the moment they get in the anti-universe it's clear that the remaining time is more about the author talking about his franchise through his two self-inserts (Gendo and Shinji) and giving the golden happy end to all the characters that he "tortured" through the years instead of making a thematically coherent ending.


One of the reasons why the 3.0+1.0 ending is in fact very thematically coherent with both Rebuild's and the original's messaging is because, by definition, it is not an escapist ending.

Intentions are what matter here, and Shinji, after spending almost an hour of runtime doing exactly the opposite of what an escapist would do already, has set his mind on sacrificing his own life so that everyone else can live in a better place. This is crucial. Shinji isn't "burning all the bridges he has" in the slightest; he's just trying to get everyone out of Unit 01 and Unit 13 and say his final goodbye to them because he knows he's going to permanently go down with these Evas when he makes his wish. A wish that by the way won't just "erase all his mistakes", but just the Evas from that point onwards, a symbol of escapism, and not the deaths that did not directly happen due to the Ikpacts (or arguably any death at all depending on your specific interpretation of the ending).

So, the fact that Yui and Gendo stepped in at the last moment to take Shinji's place in the sacrifice was, as shown, a completely unexpected event. Shinji did not plan beyond this point, so calling this "escapism" when everything that happened after this point wasn't planned or in his control is utterly nonsensical. He didn't decide where to end up, or with whom (which alone invalidate the "escapism" argument), and again, depending on your specific interpretation of the ending, he may not have ended up in another universe and his relationship with Mari in the end is not romantic in nature.

If the goal was to portray the scene non-romantically, then they did a very bad job on it, because even in Japan a good half of the fandom are of the opinion that they are a couple: we have a man and a woman talking about each other's nice smell and big boobs and the man calling the woman "as cute as ever" to fluster her before leaving hand in hand, in public, in Japan.
I'm pretty sure that if you show that scene to anyone who didn't saw Evangelion and the Rebuild, their conclusion will be that they're a couple.


I agree. If their intention was to make the nature of their relationship clear, they certainly failed. Nonetheless though, if you look into it, this scene can easily be interpreted as a non - romantic one, even if we interpret the final scene as taking place after a significant time skip during which these two characters had time to bond.

Interestingly, it's implied that he actually does have a hobby in astronomy: he mentions to Kaworu in 3.0 that he liked gazing at the stars since he was a child, and IIRC you can see astronomy books and posters of constellations in his room in 2.0.
We can only guess why he doesn't mention it to Kaji when he asks him if he has any hobby, my guess is that he doesn't say anything by fear of being judged and/or because he doesn't know him well enough to open himself on his hobbies.


Good catch, but I'm pretty sure Kaji was referring to what Shinji wants to do in the future, mainly professionally. Him seemingly being interested to an extent in astronomy wouldn't be that relevant here imo.

Konja7
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Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

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Postby Konja7 » Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:44 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Like, you keep writing that he's an immature and selfish brat because he just wants to escape the pain and guilt, but it's not just like the pain of doing something scary that you rather wouldn't do and the guilt of an oopsie: he killed the world!

I just wanted to mention how the movie portrays Shinji. Honestly, I've understand Shinji feelings at that moment.

It's just I really like the way 3.0+1.0 handle Shinji's development.
Last edited by Konja7 on Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:34 pm, edited 5 times in total.


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