Q's original story/stage greeting with Anno [split]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: Q's original story/stage greeting with Anno [split]

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Postby wiser3754 » Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:55 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:
View Original Postwiser3754#927184 wrote:This damned gap of highly pertinent information about which event caused the earth to be transformed to core is beyond irritation.

N3I blew the roof open? Fine. 3I caused a successive calamity which then transformed the earth core? Okay. That's it. That's all I need to know. Done and dusted.

Oh on that we do have an answer: the actual Third Impact (that we shorten to A3I) which happened several weeks or months after N3I is the one which turned the world to core, we know that because we have a brief (and by brief I mean a few seconds long) flashback with Misato, Ritsuko and Kaji during this event, and Misato didn't had the sling around her arm anymore (and by then was pregnant with Kaji's child), and the fact that none of them were wearing any hazmat suits meant that the place wasn't turned to core yet.


So that flashback seen in the trailers does depict the Earth being turned to core as A3I is occurring? It's not just assumed it's happening off screen? If that's the case then good to know! I finally got my answer!
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Re: Q's original story/stage greeting with Anno [split]

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Postby Konja7 » Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:15 am

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:From my point of view, the movie doesn't try to free Shinji of all the culprits. Instead, it shows how willing people are to forgive him, despite what happened.

I totally agree. The movie wants to show people willing to forgive Shinji despite what happened.

In fact, Touji or Kensuke don't deny Shinji's role in the N3I even when they are trying to comfort him.

For example:

Kensuke: Toji and the class rep getting married really took me off guard. Back in middle school, they were always at each other's throats. I guess Near Third Impact broke the ice, and all the resulting hardship brought them together. Ikari... N3I wasn't all bad.




View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:So that flashback seen in the trailers does depict the Earth being turned to core as A3I is occurring? It's not just assumed it's happening off screen? If that's the case then good to know! I finally got my answer!

I don't think the flashback in the movie depict the Earth being turned to core, I have understood it's a pretty brief flashback. I think it's just assumed it's happening off screen.

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Re: Q's original story/stage greeting with Anno [split]

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:34 am

I wonder how large a rule Unit 01 played in the actual Third Impact. If Unit 01 played a major role, then anybody not in the know might assume that after Shinji triggered N3I, he finished off the job in 3I proper.

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Re: Q's original story/stage greeting with Anno [split]

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:18 am

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:So that flashback seen in the trailers does depict the Earth being turned to core as A3I is occurring? It's not just assumed it's happening off screen? If that's the case then good to know! I finally got my answer!

No, the flashback doesn't show the Earth being turned to core, it's only a few second of Misato, Ritsuko and Kaji during Third Impact, with the Impact vortex overhead and Mark.06 fused to Lilith in the background (I won't say the context to not spoil you), we only infer that the world (or part of it and it spread through the next 14 years) was turned to core just after because they aren't wearing any protection suit.


View Original Postpwhodges wrote:
View Original PostKonja7#927211 wrote:Remember that Shinji knows in Ha that his actions were dangerous for the World.

I interpret that line differently from many people; there's an explanation of my view of it in my fic (see signature) in Shinji's voice, when Misato is cross-examining Shinji about that time.

You're talking about the famous "I don't care what happens to me. I don't care what happens to the world" line, right? (people often forget about the first part of this line)
Personally I didn't took this line as him saying that he's ready to destroy the world as long as he gets to be with Rei, but simply that he's not doing it for the world, or even for himself (or else he wouldn't be there having his soul flayed), but to save someone who's dear to him. And his total cluelessness about the state of the world at the beginning of Q make it clear that he wasn't aware of what was happening while he was digging in Zeruel's core and indeed, when he's shown the state of the world, he's horrified by it.
In fact, it's even dubious if he could hear Misato's cheers and Ritsuko's warning that he would lose his humanity if he continues.


View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:I wonder how large a rule Unit 01 played in the actual Third Impact. If Unit 01 played a major role, then anybody not in the know might assume that after Shinji triggered N3I, he finished off the job in 3I proper.

We're all wondering that, and we would had an answer had Anno made Q as he originally planned, or at least gave us an explanation in Shin or even in an interview.
Hell, we don't even know what Kaworu meant when he said "humanity think otherwise", what humanity? The Wunder crew and whoever few thousands of humans left scrambling in those glorified refugee camps they call "Villages"? Do the people outside of WILLE even know more or less what happened 14 years ago? Is that why Kensuke immediately brought Shinji to his house to live there, by fear that the rest of the village would kill him if they learn his name? Does Kensuke even know that Gendo is the head of the enemy? If so, then why did he tell Shinji that he should seek to meet and reconcile with him?!


View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I totally agree. The movie wants to show people willing to forgive Shinji despite what happened.

In fact, Touji or Kensuke don't deny Shinji's role in the N3I even when they are trying to comfort him.

For example:

Kensuke: Toji and the class rep getting married really took me off guard. Back in middle school, they were always at each other's throats. I guess Near Third Impact broke the ice, and all the resulting hardship brought them together. Ikari... N3I wasn't all bad.

The problem is that the movies can't seem to decide what he's supposed to be blamed for: WILLE keep talking about his "sin" without explained what does that entails, Kaworu said to Shinji that he's blamed for the Red Earth (how the hell does he even know that by the way? He's implied to had been sitting in NERV HQ since Third Impact!), yet when he's confronted by people who suffered because of his "sin", it's always because of N3I only (Midori losing her family, Sakura and Toji losing their father), that's what a few weeks ago I wondered if Shinji was even aware that there were two Third Impacts and that his N3I was quickly stopped by Kaworu.

And the distinction is important, because it's a completely different tall order to try to be forgiven about accidentally blowing up a city (that no one knew could happen except the guys who wanted it to happen) or about being designated co-culprit for the complete sterilization and near-genocide of the entire planet! Redemption for the latter is only possible through a deus ex machina that will magically turn back the clock and erase every bad things that happened, even if that goes against the themes of the movies up now... which is why I'm baffled that Shin did exactly that!


View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:
View Original PostElMariachi wrote:in the end it's the "god of disease" that save their ass and did in 20 minutes what they failed to do during 14 years

Well, it's an anime. NTE was never as unique as NGE. Most of the mundane elements, philosophical themes and introspection are gone. The action takes center stage and we see things like "rage boosts", for example. That's not to say it's unoriginal or "bad". In fact, NTE manages to subvert its audience's expectations in some instances! It's just not the same thing as before. Of course the protagonist would end up saving the world.

My complain was more about how the lesson the story wants to impart to Shinji is to submit himself to WILLE's judgment and apparently more capable hands for his punishment for acting on his own, when they are shown to be incompetent clowns whose every victories turned out to had been allowed by Gendo to further his plans and who got roflstomped in two minutes the moment he took the kid gloves off.
Which also goes against the whole themes of how humanity is at its strongest when they work together: Shinji and Rei would had never defeated Ramiel without all of Japan setting up the positron cannon and diverting its energy to it in record time, nor they and Asuka would had been able to defeat Sahaquiel without Misato's plans to intercept it, made possible by the scientific teams calculations of its probable falling trajectories), all replaced in Shin in favor of a "great man" rhetoric whom reshape the world through their will alone and whom only another great man can stop (I'm talking about Gendo and Shinji here), going as far as including the restoration of the world in it, all the efforts since Second Impact to try to cleanse and return life to the world made irrelevant by Shinji simply willing a clean world into existence.
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Re: Q's original story/stage greeting with Anno [split]

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Postby Konja7 » Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:04 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Does Kensuke even know that Gendo is the head of the enemy? If so, then why did he tell Shinji that he should seek to meet and reconcile with him?


I think Kensuke knows Gendo is the head of the enemy. That part is just the most "idealistic" writing.

Kensuke lost his father and see the importance on the father-son bond. So, he wants Shinji to talk and reconcile with his father.

A concept that is confirmed by the movie when Shinji manages to reach his father in the final battle


View Original PostElMariachi wrote:And the distinction is important, because it's a completely different tall order to try to be forgiven about accidentally blowing up a city (that no one knew could happen except the guys who wanted it to happen) or about being designated co-culprit for the complete sterilization and near-genocide of the entire planet! Redemption for the latter is only possible through a deus ex machina that will magically turn back the clock and erase every bad things that happened, even if that goes against the themes of the movies up now... which is why I'm baffled that Shin did exactly that!


I guess the idea is both things apply to Shinji.

Shinji is blamed by the destruction caused by N3I. Also, ​Shinji is designated as co-culprit for the complete sterilization and near-genocide of the entire planet, since the N3I seems to be related to the 3I.

I understand people could have problems with this concept, but this kind of logic (a character being blamed for being the first step of a catastrophe) isn't so uncommon in fiction.
Last edited by Konja7 on Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:06 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Q's original story/stage greeting with Anno [split]

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:15 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I think Kensuke knows Gendo is on the enemy's side. That part is just the most "idealistic" writing.

Kensuke lost his father and see the importance on the father-son bond. So, he wants Shinji to talk and reconcile with his father.

An concept that is confirmed by the movie when Shinji manages to reach his father in the final battle.

Fuck that. Gendo (and Yui) don't deserve more than an one-way trip to Hell with Shinji spitting on his grave after the shit he pulled to his son and the rest of humanity, and what the movie did with him was morally sickening. That's all I'm going to say in the matter.
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Re: Q's original story/stage greeting with Anno [split]

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Postby Kendrix » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:28 pm

He doesn't say that he wants Shinji to reconcile, just that he should try talking to Gendo for his own peace of mind. In fact he explicitly says something like that he ought to do it "even if it turns out to be pointless".

"Talk to him once" is pretty open ended & doesn't imply any particular outcome.

This isn't about any "forgiveness" nonsense as it is about closure.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Which also goes against the whole themes of how humanity is at its strongest when they work together: Shinji and Rei would had never defeated Ramiel without all of Japan setting up the positron cannon and diverting its energy to it in record time, nor they and Asuka would had been able to defeat Sahaquiel without Misato's plans to intercept it, made possible by the scientific teams calculations of its probable falling trajectories), all replaced in Shin in favor of a "great man" rhetoric whom reshape the world through their will alone and whom only another great man can stop (I'm talking about Gendo and Shinji here), going as far as including the restoration of the world in it, all the efforts since Second Impact to try to cleanse and return life to the world made irrelevant by Shinji simply willing a clean world into existence.


Actually, how is the finale different different from those other two times?
Shinji didn't do it alone - WILLE delivered the spear of gaius (Misato even died for that), he was only able to take control of EVA 01 with help from Mari and Rei, and he only escapes cause Mari comes & gets him.
& it's all based on WILLE/Kaji's old plan to "turn the ocean blue", an idea that we first hear from them
Does he have an unique idea at all? Most of what he does is some idea or inspiration that he gets from someone else, Kaji, his former classmates, Rei... He's very far from a "great man" figure (including the idea that the people trapped inside EVA 01 and 13 can still be saved - It's Mari who tells him that Asuka is still in there, & she knows it cause she either got connections to, or is one and the same as a member of the team who built them)
He pulls himself together long enough to pull the trigger, and he's the one that can get EVA 01 to switch on, but that's been his role from the beginning.

To begin with, the world was never so much dead as transformed.

One decision he does make is that he wants to get rid of what was left behind by the precursors, or derived from them - a kind of 'death of the old gods' narrative, ( though his reason might be more personal that he doesn't want himself or his friends to get their lives decided because of them - though the way the organizations etc. have been tempted by the ancient artifacts etc. is just a more sophisticated version of his personal dependence) - though even that's not unique compared to Misato's speech about "putting an end to her father's bullshit", or that line Mari gets where she seems to be talking to Yui about what ppl can do by themselves without needing to rely on the artifacts & how the adams are "no longer needed"

His only contribution, for the most part, is to negotiate down a pair of radicals (his parents) to a mutually satisfactory solution (they care mostly about defying the plan by SEELE & the far and being together than they care about how exactly that is done - they saw their solution as "the only way", but Shinji's idea to just get rid of all FAR artefacts and things made from them was good nuff for them) - a lot more realistic, actually, than to solve everything by punching.

In the modern world, negotiation is in fact how problems are usually solved. Very little punching goes on outside of wars & the most brutal dictatorships.
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Re: Q's original story/stage greeting with Anno [split]

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Postby wiser3754 » Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:41 am

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:I wonder how large a rule Unit 01 played in the actual Third Impact. If Unit 01 played a major role, then anybody not in the know might assume that after Shinji triggered N3I, he finished off the job in 3I proper.


The 'Failures of infinity' might be why humanity points their anger towards Shinji and his probable culpability. They have video evidence of him initiating N3I with his Eva transforming into a being of light so they wouldn't need any eye witness testimony or proof to believe that Eva Unit 01 wasn't involved in triggering A3I.
I watch and speculate.

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Re: Q's original story/stage greeting with Anno [split]

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:51 am

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:The 'Failures of infinity' might be why humanity points their anger towards Shinji and his probable culpability. They have video evidence of him initiating N3I with his Eva transforming into a being of light so they wouldn't need any eye witness testimony or proof to believe that Eva Unit 01 wasn't involved in triggering A3I.

The founder of WILLE and the women that would later become the leader and co-leader of it were present thought, so they might know what really happened, and it would had been great to have an actual explanation of why their anger is pointed at Shinji instead of "Humanity decided that you're guilty, so stfu and accept it without making a fuss".


View Original PostKendrix wrote:He doesn't say that he wants Shinji to reconcile, just that he should try talking to Gendo for his own peace of mind. In fact he explicitly says something like that he ought to do it "even if it turns out to be pointless".

"Talk to him once" is pretty open ended & doesn't imply any particular outcome.

This isn't about any "forgiveness" nonsense as it is about closure.

I still think that having he key to Gendo's heel realization being having the son that he manipulated and abused his whole life stopping to struggle against him and begging to understand him carries a very unfortunate message. Put it simple, it's that maybe the abuser wouldn't had been an abuser had the abused tried to understand them.
The fact that it also gives Gendo the opportunity to give his son life lessons (as if he had anything of worth to share with him) and that he finally gets what he wanted (being reunited with Yui) is just adding salt to the wound, Gendo and Yui are fucking Karma Houdinis in this saga. I guess that the feelings of Asuka who had to relive the most traumatic event of her life, all the people who died in N3I and during the time skip and might not come back and their families having to live with that fact and the past 14 years of traumatic life for the survivors doesn't really count, Shinji told his father that he loves him and absolves him, and that's what really count.

You want to have a closure between those two? Fine, do it after Gendo is defeated and he doesn't have any reason to close himself, as a mercy from Shinji who decided to still give him the opportunity to tell why did he acted the way he did.

And frankly, is that really all it took to break Gendo's will? 14 years of scheming in NERV with SEELE breathing at his neck plus 14 years of doubling down waging open war against what's left of humanity, using and abandoning your son to die in the toxic desert and transforming yourself into a human-Angel-data hybrid thing for the sake of his plan, and he gives up ten minutes away from complete victory because his son told him "but I love you daddy!"? What the hell!


View Original PostKendrix wrote:Actually, how is the finale different different from those other two times?
Shinji didn't do it alone - WILLE delivered the spear of gaius (Misato even died for that), he was only able to take control of EVA 01 with help from Mari and Rei, and he only escapes cause Mari comes & gets him.
& it's all based on WILLE/Kaji's old plan to "turn the ocean blue", an idea that we first hear from them
Does he have an unique idea at all? Most of what he does is some idea or inspiration that he gets from someone else, Kaji, his former classmates, Rei...

But that's the thing: everything the other characters have accomplished (the life-preservation project, the people at Village-3, Rei Q's death...) ultimately had the only purpose to inspire the MC in solving the entire plot with his godlike powers, everything ultimately revolves around Shinji, which is pretty ironic when the past three movies hammered the fact that the world doesn't revolve around him... except it does.

That's what I meant by "great men", that in the end only the actions and decisions of a select few chosen ones matters, and all the others characters can do is try to influence their decisions so said chosen ones can resolve all their problems as the gods they later become.


View Original PostKendrix wrote:His only contribution, for the most part, is to negotiate down a pair of radicals (his parents) to a mutually satisfactory solution (they care mostly about defying the plan by SEELE & the far and being together than they care about how exactly that is done - they saw their solution as "the only way", but Shinji's idea to just get rid of all FAR artefacts and things made from them was good nuff for them) - a lot more realistic, actually, than to solve everything by punching.

In the modern world, negotiation is in fact how problems are usually solved. Very little punching goes on outside of wars & the most brutal dictatorships.

Oh yeah, the spear of Gaius, I almost forgot about this one, biggest Deus Ex Machina ever that thing, literally came out of nowhere at the last minute without a single hint or foreshadowing of its existence and which can do everything the bad guys wanted to do so they'll lay down their weapons peacefully.
28 years of planning to bring forth an artificial evolution of mankind in an almost futile effort to get free from the "gods of SEELE" because it's the only way to make even a token resistance, and the good guys come up with a Super Spear™ that solves everyone's problem ten minutes before the end!
So what, Gendo and Fuyutsuki could had generated this spear all along with one of their three battleships and used it with EVA-13 to win, but decided to instead continue their plans involving dragging the Black Moon half a planet away and attract the Wunder and Asuka's 9th Angel because it was funnier that way?

Besides, was the spear of Gaius even necessary in the first place? Shinji already convinced his father to stop, and they had the spears of Longinus and Cassius, so they could had implemented Kaworu's plan from Q without Misato needing to do her kamikaze attack.
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Re: Q's original story/stage greeting with Anno [split]

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Postby BernardoCairo » Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:26 am

ElMariachi wrote:My complain was more about how the lesson the story wants to impart to Shinji is to submit himself to WILLE's judgment and apparently more capable hands for his punishment for acting on his own

I understand. I just felt like it was important to emphasize that NTE's conclusion is unrealistic by nature.
Also, if Shinji taking the blame for what happened doesn't seem justified, then it's a problem of how the film presents itself, not Wille's crew. Me and Konja7 presented many reasons for why Shinji is partially responsible for what happened and is potentially dangerous (which he literally turned out to be). It's not just about the Red Earth, but everything that proceeded it (the deaths, social uncertainties and wars caused by the NTI). Sometimes you have the best of intentions and ends up dropping the ball. It happens. It's your response to understand why others might be frustrated and try to improve as a human being.




Guys, there's a lot of huge and intertwined quotations in this thread. Let's try to streamline things up! Omnislashing, for example, is against the forum's rules.
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Re: Q's original story/stage greeting with Anno [split]

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:01 pm

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:It's not just about the Red Earth, but everything that proceeded it (the deaths, social uncertainties and wars caused by the NTI). Sometimes you have the best of intentions and ends up dropping the ball. It happens. It's your response to understand why others might be frustrated and try to improve as a human being.

That would had worked better if the movie actually showed us or explained to us what happened after the end of Ha, because as it stands, it looks like N3I wrecked Tokyo-3 (which yes, sucks for those involved), then nothing happened during several weeks/months (except the 11th Angel that was dealt with) and then SEELE starts their A3I which turns the entire planet to a core, killing everyone except a select few because of reasons, and it's somehow Shinji's fault.

It would had also been great if they didn't acted as if he deliberately opened a rift to another dimension and already decided on his crime, guilt and sentence before he even woke up, or at least that at some point they let him explain himself.
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Re: Q's original story/stage greeting with Anno [split]

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Postby Konja7 » Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:02 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Besides, was the spear of Gaius even necessary in the first place? Shinji already convinced his father to stop, and they had the spears of Longinus and Cassius, so they could had implemented Kaworu's plan from Q without Misato needing to do her kamikaze attack.


According to the dialogue, It seems Shinji can't use the Spears of Longinus and Cassius at that point.

Gendo: Inconceivable... All of the "Holy Spears" are gone. A new spear for rewriting the world shouldn't be possible.


That said, we will need to see the movie. Maybe we can understand that part better.

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Re: Q's original story/stage greeting with Anno [split]

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:48 am

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:According to the dialogue, It seems Shinji can't use the Spears of Longinus and Cassius at that point.

Gendo: Inconceivable... All of the "Holy Spears" are gone. A new spear for rewriting the world shouldn't be possible.


That said, we will need to see the movie. Maybe we can understand that part better.

Rereading the script, you're right, Ritsuko mentions that the "Magi C predicts that Gendo will use and then dispose of the two spears".
Ok, so now you can make the spears disappear at will, so that's a thing. And yeah, we'll need to see how Gendo could manage to make the Cassius disappear when Shinji was holding it the whole time. :facepalm:
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Evangelion 2.5/Q Reconstruction

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Postby Szmitten » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:29 pm

Between 2.0's preview of 3.0, insinuations in 3.0, flashbacks in 3.0+1.0, and recent anecdotes from Anno, we're getting a clearer picture of what - not just the timeskip - but what that original 3.0 film could have been. This probably isn't everything, as my NTE movie recall is poor since they're too new, but if you remember anything or can help parse this or assemble a sensible order of events, it'll be cool for future reference:

Eva-01 is subdued and left where it is with Shinji and Rei trapped inside. Tokyo-3 is abandoned. NERV personnel are confined to battleships.

Gendo and Fuyutsuki disappear/are ousted (by SEELE? UN?) and meet a donkey; Commander Kaworu and Vice-Commander Kaji take over to maintain NERV and protect Misato and co. Kaji and Misato become intimate.

SEELE's children: four Reis (tentative) meet Kaworu and Mari.

Eva-01 is at some point "searched" by NERV/Ritsuko but Rei isn't inside, only Shinji and the SDAT. Shinji is left inside(??) but the SDAT is taken out(??).

Eva-08 is constructed, Eva-02 is repaired, Mark.06 is converted to become autonomous. Warship plans are discovered. Asuka eventually has the 9th Angel contained.

The 11th Angel is defeated.

Gendo returns. NERV personnel abandon it and form WILLE, taking one of the early warships. Gendo "uses SEELE" to begin Third Impact.

Asuka and Mari battle the 12th Angel, but it's ultimately contained within Mark.06 instead of being destroyed.

Third Impact apparently simultaneously "occurs" and is "stopped" in Terminal Dogma where an autonomous Mark.06 becomes the head for a decapitated Lilith. Kaji sacrifices himself somehow with a WILLE aircraft. Lilith's body is independently speared with a Longinus and Mark.06 spears itself with another Longinus. This generate giant skull rain, Infinity Failures, and coreized Earth.

Eva-01 is launched into orbit by Gendo's NERV.


I realise this all looks ridiculous and contradictory so by all means, help.
Last edited by Szmitten on Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Evangelion 2.5/Q Reconstruction

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Postby Axx°N N. » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:38 pm

and meet a donkey

Lmao.

Great idea for a thread. Details related to Kredit and Wunder could be added. And if this thread is to act as a hub for analysis of this time period, hyperlinks to Anno's comments would be useful.
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Re: Evangelion 2.5/Q Reconstruction

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Postby Szmitten » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:43 pm

Less hub, more indulgence, but yeah that reminds me about the ships.

It's honestly less about the full 14 year timeskip and more a compressed timeline I could fanscript a 2.5 eventually, so I'll probably skip Kredit personally unless we have something solid.

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Re: Evangelion 2.5/Q Reconstruction

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Postby Gendo's Glasses » Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:44 pm

I feel like I'd want to see citations for some of the reasoning, not because I think you're wrong, but more that I figured that Gendo moved back into NERV HQ AFTER Third Impact. After all, someone had to install that lid on Lillith's chamber, and I doubt it would've been Gendo given that they build Eva-13 to get around it. So, that seemed to be something setup post-Third Impact. I also can't see Gendo throwing Unit 01 into space given that he needs it and Shinji as part of his plans.

I always thought it was more like...

  • Eva-01 triggers an Impact which is later termed Near-Third Impact. Kaworu stops it with the Spear of Cassius. At this point, Gendo has openly moved against SEELE.
  • Tokyo-3 is abandoned. NERV staff are captured by the UN and interrogated. Gendo and Fuyutsuki manage to evade capture and make friends with a donkey. Evangelion-01 is seemingly kept in a bunch of pillars and remains speared and inert. (At some point, presumably much later, Evangelion 01 is reduced to a torso and head.)
  • NERV is rebranded with that new angular logo. Someone appoints Kaworu and Kaji as the new command staff. I figure this is SEELE as Kaworu is mentioned as being their boy and I can't see anyone putting him in charge otherwise given that it was a teenage boy who kicked off N3I.
  • As part of that rebranding, Mark 06 is made autonomous. Kaji starts all the covert stuff that leads to WILLE. I assume that Unit 01 was launched into space around here. It's entirely possible that NERV was reduced to an entirely automated organization at this point.
  • Third Impact happens. It presumably involves the 12th Angel -- perhaps it highjacked the autonomous Mark 06. Somehow, Kaji stops it with a sacrifice. WUNDER is present. Misato is pregnant. The world gets really messed up. People put a cap on Lillith's chamber to ensure that no one can risk starting off an Impact again as it is seemingly impenetrable to any Evangelion and has never been breached in fourteen years. (Complication: the Failures of Infinity look like Unit 01 implying that it was involved. Additionally, given that two spears were used on Mark 06/Lillith, and Kaworu thought that one of them was the Cassius, then it's likely that the spear was removed from Unit 01 before this point or at this point.)
  • WILLE goes to war with NERV via an uprising? This may have happened at the time of Third Impact as Kaji's VTOL has WILLE on it. But that raises the question of what WILLE was uprising against and if anyone was fighting for NERV, especially when Kaworu and Kaji were on their side and, ostensibly, good guys. (Thought: Unit 01 could've been thrown into space now, but then why would it be stamped with the new NERV logo?)
  • SEELE, Gendo and Fuyutsuki return to NERV HQ when the dust has settled and no one bothers them because of how bad the world is and what can two old men do in an entire base, anyway? Gendo and Fuyutsuki begin constructing Evangelion 13. SEELE go silent. Gendo and Fuyutsuki appear cowed to SEELE and Kaworu appears to be the one calling the shots as their boy, although Gendo appears to be back in the command chair. Somehow, Gendo transforms the Spear of Cassius into a Spear of Longinus (although perhaps it shifted shape when it was used, who knows.)

I feel like it's possible to assemble a relatively working idea of what happened but I almost feel like it'd be an essay with reasoning and citations because there's so much data to sift through.

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Re: Evangelion 2.5/Q Reconstruction

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Postby DantesInferno » Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:14 pm

One thing I've been thinking about is the naming and order of the Eva units.

There seems to be a pattern where the NERV-made Evas are named "Eva Unit-XX" (in Japanese: (第)XX号機), whereas the Seele-made ones are follow the pattern "Eva Mark-XX" (マークXX). As a side node, this makes sense given that Seele's "main language" is German, and Nerv's is Japanese (having it's HQ in Japan, and most of its top executives be Japanese).

So while Nerv and Seele build their Evas "in parallel", they seem to make sure there are no "repeated numbers" between the two (save for the freak case of the missing Eva-04, and the stream of Mark.04x derivatives thereafter).

But this means that the mass-produced, ridiculous-shit-ton-of Mark.07 (skulls) were made (or at least conceived) by Seele before the Eva-08 that Mari pilots was built by Nerv (or perhaps Wille).

And all four of Adams' Vessels, after that.

I wonder what this means. Perhaps it can shed some light on the timeline of events, given who we know controls each unit as of the beginning of 3.0.

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Re: Evangelion 2.5/Q Reconstruction

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Postby Gendo's Glasses » Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:00 am

The Mark/Unit distinction is further complicated by how a Mark Evangelion seems like it can be a very different thing to a Unit Evangelion. Such as when one of them lands on the Wunder and the remark is "something like an Eva." Add on to that the ones that might be Adams and might not be...

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Re: Evangelion 2.5/Q Reconstruction

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Postby DantesInferno » Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:41 am

View Original PostGendo's Glasses wrote:The Mark/Unit distinction is further complicated by how a Mark Evangelion seems like it can be a very different thing to a Unit Evangelion. Such as when one of them lands on the Wunder and the remark is "something like an Eva." Add on to that the ones that might be Adams and might not be...


All Seele Evas, starting with the Mark.06, are energy-autonomous. Although never explicitly mentioned, this is most certainly because they carry the Fruit of Life (a.k.a. S2 Engine, in NGE parlance). I think this is the one thing that gives them their freak capabilities (unlimited energy, shape shifting, regenerating on the spot, pattern blue, exploding into LCL...). The four Adams' Vessels, being made entirely of core, are the pinnacle of this.

To this effect, it is very interesting that Mark.06 completes construction and sorties shortly after the Eva-04 accident. My working theory is that, Nerv-2 somehow succeeded in recreating an "artifical FoL" (alternative power source testbed, according to Maya) for the Eva-04, and Seele stole the data and sabotaged the test so that they alone would be in possession of the technology (this kind of mirrors Gendo leaving the south pole the day before Second Impact in NGE...).

This is consistent with how neither Gendo, Fuyutsuki, not Kaji seem to know what really happened, and Kaji explicitly questioning if it was an accident after all. That only leaves Seele to be the ones behind it.

---

Not sure though what prevents e.g. the Mark04a to be "counted as an angel" by Wille's sensors: What makes an entity qualify as an angel? Certainly, FoL and pattern blue alone don't seem to be enough. Then, what else does it take? Perhaps a soul from someone in the Katsuragi expedition?

The "something like an Eva" line could be attributed to sensor failur, heat of the battle, or a number of reasons related to that situation. Or not.


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