Shinji understand the Near Third Impact and the Third Impact were different events in Q

[Konja7]

Maybe that's an artifact of translation, but saying "Ikari Shinji-kun, once Awakened, Eva-01 opened the Door of Guf and became the trigger for Third Impact.Lilin call it Near Third Impact. It was all initiated by you."

It's possible the translation could make things more confusing. This is another translation of that part:

Kaworu: Ikari Shinji-kun, once Awakened, Eva-01 opened the Gates of Guf and acted as the trigger to bring about the Third Impact. Lilin call it Near Third Impact. You were the key to it all.

At the end, the biggest problem seems to exist because the staff originally has plans for a movie without Shinji after 2.0. They discarded that idea, but they use the events (we've never seen) as background.

And the argument that nothing implies that he doesn't know the distinction can just be turned around: there's nothing implying that he does know the distinction either.

To be fair, my argument is because this information about the difference between N3I and Third Impact seems to be something Shinji really needs to know.

That's why I find it easier to believe that Shinji understood the difference between N3I and Third Impact from Kaworu's words than the idea that Shinji never discovered the difference between the events.

And like I said, it doesn't matter for his journey anyway: Shinji knows he did "bad thing", Shinji wants to "make things right this time around." Asuka's lesson told him to grow up and make a decision either way, so he does.

This is true. The important for the story is that Shinji is blamed by the humanity for the state of the World.

The details aren't really important for the writers, that's why they've never explain how N3I is the trigger for the Third Impact.

[The18°angel]

so basically Shinji must take responsibility and redeem himself from something that he doesn't even know if it was really completely his fault because that is what humanity "thinks and believes". as a result Shinji is to blame for the end of the world. even when the third impact occurred weeks / months later involving unit 06 the twelfth angel and lillith and just to make it clear Kaji died stopping the third impact in the central dogma which was locked in such a way that two souls were required to enter and an eva specially created for that task. but somehow Shinji is the ONLY culprit despite the fact that NERV and SEELE were the ones who planned everything and that an eva using a dummy system is more than enough to cause the end of the world when initiating an impact.

You know what... rebuild is hypocritical and ironic. Misato katsuragi's father caused the end of the world.
killed half the human race. woke up the angels , and set the bases for instrumentality but no one ever mentions the katsuragi family as the biggest killers right behind gendo and Shinji, till like 30 years later in a one dialogue line from gendo.

Misato the daughter of the person who caused the end of the world was able to live a normal life for 15 years without anyone blaming her for what her father did. while Shinji is ... a plague that ended the world and must be punished for it.

of course you are only guilty if your name is Shinji ikari because the universe (anno) so decides.

[Derantor]

so basically Shinji must take responsibility and redeem himself from something that he doesn't even know if it was really completely his fault

Not really, but that's what he chose to do anyway. Blame it on Shinji for not questioning things and just going along with the flow. He could have gone "wait a minute, I wasn't even around when that shit happened, why are you blaming me?!" but he wasn't interested, it seems. And in the end, Misato took all the blame, and everybody loved him all of a sudden, so it's fine, I guess. They were all "We can do this! We'll give it our all, for Ikari's sake!" Even Sakura broke down in a theatralic, hysteric fit, claiming that Shinji is a destroyer and a saviour. It's almost as if she witnessed the second coming of Christ. Her act reminds me of old movies where the heathen Roman tribune or whoever witnesses Christ and has no choice but to accept him as the one true saviour.

[Konja7]

so basically Shinji must take responsibility and redeem himself from something that he doesn't even know if it was really completely his fault because that is what humanity "thinks and believes". as a result Shinji is to blame for the end of the world. even when the third impact occurred weeks / months later involving unit 06 the twelfth angel and lillith and just to make it clear Kaji died stopping the third impact in the central dogma which was locked in such a way that two souls were required to enter and an eva specially created for that task. but somehow Shinji is the ONLY culprit despite the fact that NERV and SEELE were the ones who planned everything and that an eva using a dummy system is more than enough to cause the end of the world when initiating an impact.

To be fair, NERV and SEELE are also blamed for the state of the World (that's why WILLE fights them). The thing is the humanity blames Shinji too.

I'm pretty sure the story of Rebuild really implies N3I has a connection with the Third Impact, which is the reason why Shinji is blamed. The annoying is that the writers don't want to explain that connection or how N3I is the trigger.


PS: Two souls weren't needed to enter Terminal Dogma. The two souls were needed to use the two Spears.

[The18°angel]

PS: Two souls weren't needed to enter Terminal Dogma. The two souls were needed to use the two Spears.

kaworu literally asks Shinji for help the moment they make contact with the central dogma barrier. he himself tells Shinji that they must synchronize to go through it.

Misato took responsibility for what happened by the N3I she did not take responsibility for the second impact that her beloved father caused and unlike the anime this second impact was not an accident that had to be stopped midway. it was a full impact carried out by katsuragi on purpose because he wanted to prove that his instrumentality theories were real ... and no one. NO ONE blames the katsuragi or holds them responsible for killing half the human race. it's more Misato didn't even know about it. which means that the whole event of the second impact was covered up, because otherwise Misato would have required an identity change if we take into account how people reacted with Shinji due to his "guilt" at causing the end of the world.

And this is the things. There is a difference between knowing that you made mistakes and taking responsibility for those mistakes by trying to correct them. And just being a martyr who has to bear all the blame for a catastrophe when there are so many people involved that basically it reminds me of a line of dialogue the series of the paper house.

"Very well, gentlemen, we can divide the shit into small pieces so that everyone has some or we can decide who is going to take all the shit"

that ... that's basically Shinji and his relationship with being "guilty" and "responsible" for the end of the world.

[Konja7]

kaworu literally asks Shinji for help the moment they make contact with the central dogma barrier. he himself tells Shinji that they must synchronize to go through it

I always assumed that was because Kaworu and Shinji were piloting Eva-13. So, they need to synchronize to have good control of that Eva.

[Derantor]

Misato is fully aware of "her father's bullshit", which is why she devoted her life to stopping Gendo. And why would anybody blame Misato for the actions of her father? This isn't the middle ages, where you're guilty for the crimes comitted by your family. She's constantly seen punishing herself for it anyway.

[The18°angel]

Misato is fully aware of "her father's bullshit", which is why she devoted her life to stopping Gendo. And why would anybody blame Misato for the actions of her father? This isn't the middle ages, where you're guilty for the crimes comitted by your family. She's constantly seen punishing herself for it anyway.

Then Shinji is only responsible for the N3I which he is the one who caused it. but Shinji is also blamed for the third impact together with gendo and we know thanks to khara's twitters that gendo was the one who caused the third impact after rejoining SEELE.

The middle age thing is applying only that for some people yes and others not

the connection of the katsuragi family with the second impact was covered up or omitted because Misato lived a normal life for 15 until the war in tokyo 03 where he only wanted to take revenge on the angels because of his father. so not even she knew of her father's real plans or intentions. until after it all came to light between N3I and the third impact. But even at that point I don't see anyone wanting to burn the katsuragi for their involvement with the second impact.

And to say that Misato dedicated her life to stopping her father's work is to simplify her character.

Misato wants to protect her son, she wants revenge on NERV, she feels guilty for being a puppet and being the one who in the end was one of the people who forced Shinji to pilot the eva.

the difference is that Misato had a normal life because her past was covered up while, what happened with Shinji and gendo is public knowledge.

And people ignore this about the N3I.

NERV was completely defeated by Zeurel. and he could get to lillith because the geo-front's self-destruct system this time is automatic and at that point Shinji was no longer a pilot because unit 01 had to work with the dummy system but it didn't. leaving NERV completely defenseless. even when Shinji returned to fight unit 01 was defeated. and there were only two options ... the angel or Shinji. It is entirely possible that SEELE foresaw this and sent Kaworu with Cassius's spear to stop the impact regardless of who caused it. but nobody expected the awakening of unit 01 except gendo.

[pwhodges]

I'm pretty sure the story of Rebuild really implies N3I has a connection with the Third Impact, which is the reason why Shinji is blamed.

The way I see it, Near Third Impact is actually the start of a Third Impact which was stopped early on by Kaworu. The later Third Impact is essentially a rerun, even though the trigger and the means of stopping it were both different; it got further, and caused yet more damage - enough that the next impact would be the fourth, as opposed to another rerun of the third... It might even be thought that the (second) Third Impact was easier to start because Near Third Impact had "primed" things somehow - which would then give some justification for blaming Shinji (if you really blame him for NTI, at least)..

[Derantor]

the difference is that Misato had a normal life because her past was covered up while

Ehhh ... what do you weant people to do instead? "Oh, you're the daughter of that insane scientist - since he's dead, lets punish you instead!" "Burn the witch!" Unless you want to argue that Misato was involved in Second Impact herself, this is nothing but demanding that she's punished for the sins of her father. Or in other words, you think people treated Shinji unfairly, so instead of demanding that he's treated fairly instead, you demand that Misato is treated unfairly too.

Excuse the strong language, but unless I misunderstand something here, that's completely ass-backwards logic.

[Konja7]

Then Shinji is only responsible for the N3I which he is the one who caused it. but Shinji is also blamed for the third impact together with gendo and we know thanks to khara's twitters that gendo was the one who caused the third impact after rejoining SEELE.

I just want to clarify that we can't really confirm if Gendo caused the Third Impact. It's extremely likely Gendo was involved, but we don't know his role.


This is the twitter you are speaking:

tweet-body

— twitter-user (@username) date

Translated by Nuclear Lunchbox:
Near-Third Impact in Ha → Gendo ousted → Kaworu and Kaji assume command in Gendo's absence, aid in the preservation of NERV and in protecting Misato and co. → Gendo somehow reassumes command at NERV → Gendo uses SEELE, another battle occurs, starts Third Impact → Kaji dies to stop Third Impact → WILLE is born → Q begins


This twitter isn't from Khara. The user from this twitter attended an stage where Anno spoke. In that stage, Anno mentioned his plans for a movie without Shinji where Kaworu is Commander and Kaji is Vice-Commander of NERV.

However, I suspect this particular twitter has only theories for the events (not something that Anno has really mentioned). There isn't other twitter or message from people who saw the stage that mentioned so much details.


PS: In the Eva app, I've also seen the stage. I don't know Japanese (so I don't understand anything), but I don't remember Anno mentioning Gendo.

[The18°angel]

I'm not saying that Shinji or Misato should be treated differently. let me explain it this way.

Shinji caused the N3I and if he should take responsibility for that event and what it caused. BUT the third impact that his father(or SEELE) caused a SEPARATE event of his actions is still his public fault.

Sakura and Midori are right to hate Shinji because apparently their parents or families died during N3I I assume it was when the geo-front was opened wide because of Unit 01 (even when people at ground zero Misato , ritsuko, Kaji, mari and the others were unharmed) but the problem is that the entire human race blames him for the third impact that destroyed the world. something caused by gendo.

if Shinji is guilty of the third impact that gendo caused.

Then where does that leave Misato and what happened at the south pole then.

Tell me where the second impact leaves that and the fact that her father caused it but it was covered up. What prevented Misato who helped form WILLE erase the NERV data and blame the entire event on the dummy system which is more than enough to cause an impact as demonstrated by unit 06 or from covering up what happened and how Shinji was involved.

because the point at the end of the day is that Shinji caused death and destruction by accident. but the official story is that the third impact was caused by the evil ikari together. and Shinji is the one who will pay for the broken dishes in the end because unlike with gendo WILLE can only get it's hands on Shinji. and in the wunder, Shinji is informed that his punishment is to wear that DSS necklace forever and that he will be in custody from now on and will never pilot the eva again.

punishment ... the DSS necklace is a punishment for Shinji and a symbol of his sins that we know are inflated with those of gendo and the third impact. it is a punishment not a security measure as it is for Asuka and mari.

and unlike mari and Asuka, Misato can decide to end the Shinji's life using a detonator ... the necklace is only automatic when leaving the wunder's range.

Misato takes the place of judge, jury and executioner in 3.0. in the end she can't kill him, but it really matters besides the collar he was going to be put in isolation in a bomb cell with the only interactions being his medical officer and maybe ... maybe Asuka and mari.

and Misato is the highest authority of the human race ... if she had wanted it she could have done anything with Shinji and she decided to punish him. Maybe Misato is only punishing him for the N3I but for the human race it is a punishment for everything.


Near-Third Impact in Ha → Gendo ousted → Kaworu and Kaji assume command in Gendo's absence, aid in the preservation of NERV and in protecting Misato and co. → Gendo somehow reassumes command at NERV → Gendo uses SEELE, another battle occurs, starts Third Impact → Kaji dies to stop Third Impact → WILLE is born → Q begins

Well it was said that the preview of 2.0 that shows 3.0 is canon and the events seems to be in tone with the preview in addition to the fact that lillith has the face of Rei everything indicates that gendo was the one who was involved in some capacity in the event.

[Konja7]

Shinji caused the N3I and if he should take responsibility for that event and what it caused. BUT the third impact that his father caused a SEPARATE event of his actions is still his public fault.

As I mentioned, we can't really confirm that Gendo caused the Third Impact (the twitter that said that is unreliable to say the least). Gendo is likely involved in the Third Impact, but we don't know his role.

Now, the reason why Shinji is blamed by humanity is because the N3I was the trigger to bring about the Third Impact. We (the audience) don't know how the N3I was the trigger, but that's the reason why Shinji is blamed.

Near-Third Impact in Ha → Gendo ousted → Kaworu and Kaji assume command in Gendo's absence, aid in the preservation of NERV and in protecting Misato and co. → Gendo somehow reassumes command at NERV → Gendo uses SEELE, another battle occurs, starts Third Impact → Kaji dies to stop Third Impact → WILLE is born → Q begins

As I said, this timeline of events was said by a twitter user who isn't related to Khara. This twitter user attended a stage where Anno spoke.

However, we don't know if Anno really mentioned all these details in the event. Other twitter or messages from people who see the stage don't give so much details. That's why I think many of the events mentioned in the twitter are theories from the user.


PS: To be clear, I also think Gendo was involved in the Third Impact. It's just that this twitter doesn't seem a reliable source.

[Derantor]

@The18thAngel: I understood what you're saying: you want Shinji and Misato to be treated the same. Badly, that is. I'm objecting to it, for the reasons I stated. Edit: Or you want to point out that Shinji is treated unfairly; that's of course right. Bringing Misato and Second Impact into this muddles this point considerably, though.

and unlike mari and Asuka, Misato can decide to end the Shinji's life using a detonator

Mari and Asuka too. The detonator has this revolving interface, there's not only a slot for Shinji. They also increased the explosives around Mari's and Asuka's room. Shinji isn't singled out, here. And we frankly don't know what "the human race" thinks about Third Impact and who caused it. Nobody in the village is pissed off at Shinji, or even recognizes him, besides his old friends.

[The18°angel]

Mari and Asuka too. The detonator has this revolving interface, there's not only a slot for Shinji. They also increased the explosives around Mari's and Asuka's room. Shinji isn't singled out, here. And we frankly don't know what "the human race" thinks about Third Impact and who caused it. Nobody in the village is pissed off at Shinji, or even recognizes him, besides his old friends.

Not that both are treated badly. but I want to make it clear how in the end both situations that are the same were handled in a completely different way regarding the people involved. one was a catastrophe and the matter died without culprits, without perpetrators. nothing, for a long time, while the other two events, have the culprits identified and whose participation does not influence because they were already declared as guilty at exactly the same level regardless of whether it was a puppet or not or if it was a accident.

edit: I want to make it clear that I think they treated Shinji in the worst possible way under the circumstances and that was a recipe for disaster and that blaming Misato for what her father did is wrong and Misato deserved to live a normal life but. ... even with that Misato decided to punish Shinji and also no one forced her ... she was the highest authority of the human race without any kind of superior to respond to.

the detonator may have multiple slots but there is no evidence that Asuka and mari's necklaces are linked to that detonator and as far as we can see, ritsuko programmed it specifically for Shinji and when they are explaining the few things they manage to say to Shinji in the living room interrogation appears exclusively ordered as an executive order signed by Misato katsuragi. also that detonator only appeared once and was directly related to Shinji. even when receiving another necklace we do not see another detonator being prepared so it is obvious to assume that it only exists and is programmed for him. in addition to making it clear that it is a punishment and not a security measure

and we know what the rest of the human race thinks kaworu told Shinji in person when he denied having caused the end of the world

"You might think that way, but the lillim don't see it like that"

before going on a monologue of how there is no unforgivable sin.

and the village 03 frankly from an objective point of view I think there is definitely something weird about how that developed in the village ... no one questions why there is a blue haired girl with a plug suit wandering around or how is that Kensuke brought two strangers from the red desert where everything is supposed to be dead and taking into account how Sakura reacts to Shinji and how Touji behaves with Shinji in relation to the death of their father ... it is strange there is no consistency. touji doesn't seem to care or just doesn't mention it. Despite being authorized, only two people point weapons at Shinji and how did Shinji get to the outside of the wunder without encountering any wille soldier who had orders to shoot him if he was spotted outside of his cell. did Shinji turn solid snake and dodge them?

and then there's the whole "war" thing between wille and nerv where as far as i can understand. nerv will leave alone so as long as they don't have the wille logo. the fact that kredit can operate without its supply lines being attacked gives a lot to think about those "14 years of hellish warfare"

[Konja7]

A curious data, Evangelion 3.333 has imageboards of an early version of Q, you can find the video (and password) here:

thread/20888/Evangelion-3333-Bluray-coming-out-on-8-25/40/

In this version, Kaji was alive and living in Neo-Nerv. He is who shows the state of the World to Shinji. We don't exactly know what Kaji explains (there isn't voice), but Shinji's reaction and he remembering the battle with the 10th Angel after their talk implies Kaji says something similar to "N3I is the trigger to bring about the Third Impact".

I mentioned this because it reaffirms that the important thing in this part was that Shinji is blamed for the state of the World. The person who inform Shinji from this isn't so important (Kaworu has this role in the final version of Q, because they decided that Kaji died to stop the Third Impact).

[nerv bae]

Not that both are treated badly. but I want to make it clear how in the end both situations that are the same were handled in a completely different way regarding the people involved.

Misato has zero responsibility for Second Impact, but Shinji has nonzero responsibility for Third Impact. He directly caused Near Third Impact, setting the stage for Third Impact. If he had not awakened Unit 01, gotten Cassius-speared, etc., then subsequent events (primarily the Wille rebellion and 12th angel attack) probably would have played out differently and full Third Impact could have been avoided. It is utterly unreasonable to equate Misato and Shinjis' level of responsibility for these two Impacts.

[The18°angel]

edit: nerv had been completely defeated ... It was the angel or it was Shinji and we can't count on kaworu because unit 06 was equipped with a spear to stop impacts before being sent to earth where nerv was supposed to be in full capacity to kill the angel, using unit 01 with the dummy system. and gendo wanted to awaken unit 01 at any cost. the fact that it happened in that battle was just very bad luck for Shinji and also no one knew that a eva could do that ... NOBODY ... not even ritsuko. only mari, gendo, and Kaji were completely calm in the middle of the N3I apocalypse. And if you want to see what would have happened if unit 01 did not cause N3I that has a name, it is called the anime and manga. they both ended up with the bad guys winning by causing a full third impact.

edit 2: wille could only exist because Kaji and kaworu took control of nerv, Misato only joined the rebellion because she discovered thanks to the N3I what nerv and SEELE really wanted and the rebellion only happened because a disaster like the N3I put everyone in a panic.

edit 3: Shinji was piloting an apocalyptic weapon which he basically knew nothing about and his own employers didn't know its full capabilities either (except for gendo, fuyursuki and Kaji) and if what ritsuko says in 3.0 it's true ... Shinji was always at risk of suffering an emotional crisis and aweking the eva ... it was pure luck that he hadn't done it before taking into account how risky the eighth angel was and that Shinji forced unit 01 to break the sound barrier to be able to stop it. even his true responsibility in the N3I is doubtful as the pilot did not know what Unit 01 was actually capable of. And gendo want it to awaken and gendo let Shinji go because he thought the dummy system was enough for make it happens.

I give up ... 3.0 says it's all Shinji's fault

but 3.0 + 1.0 contradicts that information without really shedding any light on what actually happened.

N3I is the trigger for the third impact ... but we see that unit 01 was not even physically present in the short scene showing the third impact caused by unit 06. I don't know how the two events are related and there was at least one angel that had to be killed before the third impact and wille must have stolen the wunder at some point ...

It is almost like saying that the Second World War happened just because the trigger was the First World War. or say that both wars were the same only with a time of peace in between.

I give up

[Konja7]

N3I is the trigger for the third impact ... but we see that unit 01 was not even physically present in the short scene showing the third impact caused by unit 06. I don't know how the two events are related and there was at least one angel that had to be killed before the third impact and wille must have stolen the wunder at some point ...

Honestly, I think people focus so much in Unit 01 not being physically present.

The trigger to bring about the Third Impact is mentioned to happen when Awakened Unit 01 opened the Gates of Guf (an event called N3I). As I mentioned, we don't know how this was the trigger for the Third Impact, but this implies that Unit 01 already has his role as a trigger at the end of 2.0.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm also frustrated because the writers don't give a clear explanation about this. it wouldn't even be that difficult to create an explanation that totally blames Shinji, but they want to mantain the mystery.

[nerv bae]

edit: nerv had been completely defeated ... It was the angel or it was Shinji and we can't count on kaworu because unit 06 was equipped with a spear to stop impacts before being sent to earth where nerv was supposed to be in full capacity to kill the angel, using unit 01 with the dummy system. and gendo wanted to awaken unit 01 at any cost. the fact that it happened in that battle was just very bad luck for Shinji and also no one knew that a eva could do that ... NOBODY ... not even ritsuko. only mari, gendo, and Kaji were completely calm in the middle of the N3I apocalypse. And if you want to see what would have happened if unit 01 did not cause N3I that has a name, it is called the anime and manga. they both ended up with the bad guys winning by causing a full third impact.

Near Third Impact isn't just a result of Shinji's very bad luck: it's a result of his choice to pursue Rei's soul in the core of the 10th Angel. If he had instead stood back a bit and used unawakened, or even initially-awakened, Unit 01 to destroy the 10th Angel (and thereby lose Rei's soul forever), the Near Third Impact might have been avoided while still winning the fight.