Speaking in LCL

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Speaking in LCL

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Postby EvaChero » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:02 am

Sorry if this is hidden in an earlier topic, I did try to search for it. Anyhoo

Was just curious as to the explanation of how inside the Eva capsules that the characters are able to speak understandably when submerged in a liquid.?

During a search I noted that BM4 had postulated a change to a gaseous state when fully inserted and energized into the Eva unit. ...That's a very
interesting idea. IIRC scenes tend to "clear up" once the pilot is fully interfaced and that would seem to support the theory although I think inconsistent
reappearance of bubbles in other scenes make this unclear . I know its a small point, but I think a relevant one. It's also interesting where glasses for
vision correction are still relevant right alongside high level cloning, neural interfacing and soul transference. I suppose it wouldn't be the same if the
pilots entered a chamber filled with LCL and neural interfaced by remote thus removing any personal danger and fought by "telepresence".
who doesn't want to kick back with Misato and have a few beers?

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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby Blockio » Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:15 pm

Liquid carries sound better than air; for breathable liquids like LCL, I see little reason why you shouldn't be able to also speak in it
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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:24 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Liquid carries sound better than air; for breathable liquids like LCL, I see little reason why you shouldn't be able to also speak in it

Liquid may carry sound better, but it’s not really possible to hear in it: the complicated mechanism that allows us to hear sound only works in air. So if the pilots were in liquid the whole time, they wouldn’t be able to interact with mission control, and Asuka and Shinji wouldn’t be able to talk to each other in Episode 8.

In my opinion, the “LCL phase change” theory is the only way any of the scenes set in an Eva could possibly make sense. That’s why I’m such a big proponent of it.

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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby EvaChero » Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:37 pm

Apparently sound travels 4.7 times faster in liquid (according to google?) and your skull provides a pretty good Bone Conduction to take the place
of air conduction through the ear. So you can hear sounds and loudly enough...but I imagine there would be some possible distortion.
The kicker I guess is can your vocal chords vibrate the LCL and make distinguishable sounds for the people back at NERV to hear and understand?

I guess until I get a lungful of LCL and try it I'm not going to know :w00t:

Aren't there deep sea divers that use some form of liquid in the place of air due to pressure problems??
ehhh nope...I was remembering the movie "The Abyss" apparently they have yet to solve liquid breathing in place
of gas mixes of helium/oxygen/nitrogen.

from Wiki
"Liquid breathing is a form of respiration in which a normally air-breathing organism breathes an oxygen-rich liquid (such as a perfluorocarbon), rather than breathing air.

By selecting a liquid that is capable of holding large amounts of oxygen and CO2, gas exchange can occur.[1]

This requires certain physical properties such as respiratory gas solubility, density, viscosity, vapor pressure, and lipid solubility which some perfluorochemicals have.[2] Thus, it is critical to choose the appropriate PFC for a specific biomedical application, such as liquid ventilation, drug delivery or blood substitutes. The physical properties of PFC liquids vary substantially; however, the one common property is their high solubility for respiratory gases. In fact, these liquids carry more oxygen and carbon dioxide than blood.[3]

In theory, liquid breathing could assist in the treatment of patients with severe pulmonary or cardiac trauma, especially in pediatric cases. Liquid breathing has also been proposed for use in deep diving[4][5][6] and space travel.[7][8] Despite some recent advances in liquid ventilation, a standard mode of application has not yet been established."


bummer.
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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:58 pm

I'm looking into it a bit more, and it seems like hearing wouldn't be a problem: the ear may not work, but your head can still conduct vibrations pretty well. However, what would be a problem is speaking. Just like the ears, the vocal cords are designed to work in air. Underwater, your vocal cords wouldn't be able to vibrate as well, and the only thing coming out would be incomprehensible noise.

So my point still stands about the LCL phase change theory being necessary for the scenes in Evas to make sense, only I misidentified what exactly would prevent the scenes from working.

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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby Blockio » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:03 pm

BusterMachine4 wrote:So my point still stands about the LCL phase change theory being necessary for the scenes in Evas to make sense, only I misidentified what exactly would prevent the scenes from working.

You're missing the forest for the trees. We see visible air bubbles inside the entry plug when it gets heated after getting hit by an energy attack. That much is undisputable, and the only way that is possible is if the LCL was in a different phase before that; since it's obviously not solid and plasme is out of the question, that leaves liquid as the only state it could be in.

LCL has a lot of very handwavy things around it; you are writing overly elaborate fanfiction and cherrypick your data all to explain a single phenomenon that realistically is just a worldbuilding oversight or something that was handwaved as "it's scifi, noone will look this closely at the physics".
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby Berserker » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:49 am

I remember being highly enthusiastic about liquid breathing long since I had heard about it for the first time.

What makes the LCL phase change theory interesting is that it can't be totally denied as the transformation into a transparent form of ionized liquid from an orange, kinda sludgy liquid substance is clearly visible. However, air bubbles can also be seen bursting out several times throughout the show even in that shifted state like Blockio already stated above, along with the fact that the audio track do can be heard a little muffled like underwater-esque while inside the entry plug if paid close attention, which nulls out any chance of its phase being changed to a gas or alike state. Since the fact that it can't be in a state of solid or plasma, I suppose only a hypothetical semi gas-liquid state constantly refluxing explains things. Obviously, such state hasn't been observed in reality yet, but it can't be taken in account for a fallacious, completely fictional speculation either as there are phases like semi solid(liquid crystal which acts like solid, still has the ability to flow like water) state and semi gas-liquid-solid state seen in water under not-so extreme situation. And unlike perfluorocarbon, LCL seems really versatile to adapt to in terms of liquid breathing, as it didn't require any precautionary measurements and prior training or anything as seen in case of Shinji. Just straight up filled his lungs promptly and he was good to go, which along with the quick transitioning speaks for its versatility and adaptability, while liquid breathing in reality with mediums like PFC requires heavy supportive ventilation system with other complementary measurements, still not having a standard mode of application founded.

As for the issue with audibility and the ability to speak underwater, you do can hear while being submerged through bone conduction instead of conventional air conduction. As a matter of fact, this allows us to hear beyond the frequency range of what is considered the typical range of audiblility. If it's still a subject to confusion and hard to believe that bone conduction doesn't really reduce hearing clarity, this must be ensuring that there are some hearing aids besides the conventional ones which actually trigger bone conduction in case of the inability to hear through the ear drum aka air conduction. This is simply a matter of adaptivity as to what we're habituated to doing and relying on in daily basis, which causes the inability to vocalize underwater properly. LCL clears this out, as I may have been able to explain it above, that it's highly adaptive by itself and to what/whom it's being used upon, making them be promptly accustomed to it.
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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby EvaChero » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:50 am

It's true I'm over emphasizing a minor point but it is fun to postulate,

another thought I had in relation to a solution would be a function of the pilots "Cats ears" having the built in capability to transmit what the pilot is
saying by picking up the bone conduction of the speaker through the skull and transmitting to Nerv HQ and vice versa.

While Toji was yelling at Shinji when the boys joined him in the plug during the angel fight, it could be perhaps head cannoned that
part of the reason Toji was ignored was Shinji really had no idea what he was screaming since he wasn't as "equipped"
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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby UrsusArctos » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:34 pm

LCL really is pretty weird and behaves like air a whole lot of the time. In addition to talking in LCL, there's the moment in Episode 23 when Rei cries in the Entry Plug and looks down at the tears falling into her lap, and we see them flowing down her face as though it's in open air.

Blockio wrote:LCL has a lot of very handwavy things around it; you are writing overly elaborate fanfiction and cherrypick your data all to explain a single phenomenon that realistically is just a worldbuilding oversight or something that was handwaved as "it's scifi, noone will look this closely at the physics".


This, pretty much, is the Doylist explanation.
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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby Kendrix » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:17 pm

So, tears are denser than LCL?

Maybe it's nonpolar so watery stuff like tears doesn't mix with it, though for all the talk about LCL being "just like blood" or maybe ancient ocean water, I'd assume that it's an aqueous solution with polar organic molecules, not too different in composition from actual body fluid & hence it should mix. *shrugs*
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Postby EvaChero » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:44 pm

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:LCL really is pretty weird and behaves like air a whole lot of the time. In addition to talking in LCL, there's the moment in Episode 23 when Rei cries in the Entry Plug and looks down at the tears falling into her lap, and we see them flowing down her face as though it's in open air.



ahhhh drat I had forgotten about that, LCL properties are apparently dramatically malleable! :D
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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:14 am

An official Evangelion spinoff manga published by Dark Horse, Neon Genesis Evangelion: Comic Tribute, has an entire chapter about the pilots having to cough up lungfuls of LCL after exiting their Evangelions, suggesting we never see it because nobody wants to watch teenage girls throwing up. (The solution Misato comes to is to simply manufacture D-Type suits for the pilots filled with LCL, so they never have to leave the environment and never have to puke.)

LCL is wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff and I'm okay with that.

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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby EvaChero » Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:07 am

Nice "Who" ref there. :D

Gerry Andersons "UFO" used a liquid atmosphere suit for the aliens for their FTL travel. Exposure to raw atmosphere tended to kill them after that...

Of course would our pilot friends even have to have their heads immersed to interface/adequately? Why not a full face oxygenated helmet with modern
electronics?" I know I know, budgetary concerns.

something like this might do the job without limiting facial expressions.

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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby Derantor » Sun May 02, 2021 5:24 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:the pilots having to cough up lungfuls of LCL after exiting their Evangelions, suggesting we never see it because nobody wants to watch teenage girls throwing up.

I'd loved a scene like that, actually. Maybe with Shinji, after his first battle. Would have added another nice realistic touch. Not sure about the coughing, though - they'd probably hang over a ledge or something and let it gently flow out, as coughing with liquid in your loungs seems bound to cause damage to them.

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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby Blockio » Mon May 03, 2021 1:47 pm

It would be pretty neat to see, yeah. Or disgusting. Probably both.
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What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby TastyCap » Tue May 04, 2021 8:46 pm

LCL's always bothered (or fascinated) me in that regard. Like others here have said, it's handwaved away for narrative purposes, and it's incredibly easy to forget that the pilots are in LCL in the first place. All three of the pilots move as if they're in air, and we hear them communicate with NERV with no difficulty. LCL also doesn't have wettability, because everyone's hair looks and moves exactly the same way as it does outside of the entry plug. I completely understand why LCL needs to be handwave-y though, as both a writing and animation convenience.

It's funny, because I assumed it functioned similar to the phase change theory, where LCL would quickly adapt to a person's lungs and then the entry plug would initiate a change to a gaseous, atmospheric state upon synchronization with the pilot. This thread is making me realize just how wrong that headcanon is.

Out of curiosity, in what scenes are the bubbles visible after the plug sustains damage? That's something pretty big that I've apparently never noticed before.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Tue May 04, 2021 8:55 pm

When Ramiel hits Unit 01 with a blast and we get air bubbles, I always assumed it was spot boiling, that Shinji was actually getting cooked in those places and we were seeing the results of the LCL actually boiling. (Of course, if it were gaseous, it would already be a gas, and not boiling further.) Maybe it's just hand-wavey physics again.

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Postby UrsusArctos » Wed May 05, 2021 7:10 am

https://wiki.evageeks.org/FGC:Episode_05_Cut_317

The LCL is clearly back to yellow-orange and judging from the way Shinji's hair is standing up, it's back to being a liquid.
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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby EvaChero » Wed May 05, 2021 9:01 am

found this neat little device...works for my HC ....I'm thinking liquid all the time ...just who wants to constantly illustrate a watery picture...? not I
said the fly.

Mouth mount or head mount.....your choice!


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Re: Speaking in LCL

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Postby TastyCap » Wed May 05, 2021 10:16 am

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:https://wiki.evageeks.org/FGC:Episode_05_Cut_317

The LCL is clearly back to yellow-orange and judging from the way Shinji's hair is standing up, it's back to being a liquid.


Interesting. I can't remember any other scenes like this, even when the EVAs are directly damaged. I'd chalk it up to artistic license, showing the LCL's liquid state and Shinji's bubbled screams for effectiveness. It's a striking visual to end the episode on, unless you want to really reach and say that Ramiel's energy blast briefly disrupted whatever process that keeps the Entry Plug's LCL 'stable' for Shinji.


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