How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

[C.T.1290]

Ok, just to be clear; I haven’t seen the film yet, as it’s currently not available in the U.S.

So lately, I got some spoilers that Shinji has ended up with Mari instead of Asuka, and it was all part of Anno’s plan.

So what’s your take on this? Does that make the ending good or did leave a lot people disappointed that Mari is now officially Shinji’s love interest?

Now, I could be wrong in assuming that Mari had replaced Asuka seeing as Anno has decided to have Shinji move on from her, much as his own representation of him moving on from Evangelion as a whole. I bet that a lot of LAS shippers where waiting for Shinji x Asuka to happen, but frankly, it didn’t. So Mari has taken on that mantle.

What do you think?

[Kendrix]

> Implying Asuka was ever "the" love interest and not like one out of three or four if you count Misato

& yes there's ample extratextual evidence for that. ...besides like, very obvious phrasing & camera angles in the show proper.


But as for the question it's been, like, vastly exaggerated.


The whole ending sequence is (almost certainly by design) highly ambiguous & open-ended, even the casts isn't sure how much of the ending was literal or metaphor/symbol. (on a symolical level, she's welcoming him into the fellowship of grownups & representing supportiveness, which is just the role she has in most of her dialogues - giving advice, showing support... but it's mostly seen with Asuka rly. She's there as an example of a supportive person. )

EoE was just the same really - Asuka's there as the 'symbol'/'standin'/most obvious example for conflict, & her showing up means that there is now conflict in the world again; Not snapping her neck means Shinji accepting that.

They walk off in the same direction & there's one flirty comment but it could just as easily be taken as just banter.
Indeed the dialogue seems to suggest they're meeting up for the first time in a while.

You could say that the possibility is suggested (it's not like Anno & co don't know their audience or common visual shorthand in their industry -
I mean from some old CR scenes & relationship charts it seems they had certainly considered to add her to the Shinji fanclub), but it's far from explicitly confirmed. No wedding rings, no kids, no intertwined fingers not even a hug or a kiss.
If you look at the Japanese youtube comment there's an even split between the ones who saw it as flirty and the ones who read it as mentor-like.

But if you go with that reading it would be like, a very brief distant finale sort of reading.
"He married some completely different person many years later, could've been anyone but let's make it this side character that was vaguely nice to him"
Which is realistic I guess? But the audience would naturally be more interested in the ppl we already know & had more interactions with.
That would've happened entirely off-screen between the end of Fourth Impact & the epilogue.

I don#t have anything against Mari. She kicks butt, she's an interesting contrast figure, us kooky girls with no filters have to stick together.

There's even ppl claiming that Rei & Kaworu got together because they're seen... talking to each other? Not even holding hands, just talking at normal talking distance. Now that's ridic, but if you insist on having everyone paired up for some reason * shrug *

While I won't even pretend that I don't have personal taste preferences, I don't care so much that Rei or Kaworu get with this one specific dude as I do that that the narrative says they matter & they're people and it wasn't wrong to care about them, and in that sense I go what I wanted.

But rly, it's suuuuper open-ended.

All three get Moments(TM) something like a confession scene & Shinji very nearly get himself killed to save them all (& the world) - thankfully Mari & Yui intervene. (as Yui should - it's all her fault lol. ), cue various songs with lyrics like "I will always be proud that I loved you"

The Asuka one is maybe the closest one to sunk since the confession is in the past tense/long ago, with like some overtone of 'it could never have worked but our feelings were still valid' (and I think they say I thought I liked you), which is actually pretty sweet, fair and un-pessimistic for Anno when you compare it to how EoE pounded on the selfish motives, considering she was always like - the worst most difficult person for Shinji to get along with an embodiment of all the difficulty of human interaction, the last person he goes to out of desperation cause everyone else is dead or estranged.
But like, you still have wiggle room there if you really want it it was mutually returned after all. Go write some fanfic where they meet again ten years later when Shinji's a Big Stronk Man or something.

[Axx°N N.]

I agree the ending scene is open-ended, but the implications extend into the rest of the film.

The comment about Yui 'bringing color' to Gendo's life is later reflected in the animatics getting colorized as Mari shows up, said animatics render Shinji in key-frames and Mari as inbetweens (thus they 'complete each other') and she comes out of the water like Disney's Little Mermaid before a land-stationed Shinji. Such visual language is plain.

One can't blame shippers for an 'out-of-bounds' shipper read if the very ending skirts ambiguity only enough that it barely matters.

[Kendrix]

That was obvious (and awesome! - says me, a huge EoTv fan) reference to EoTVs sketchy animation especially the "world with nothing" sequence.

That whole thing about how, without the presence of others & feeling your own boundaries & limits you can't really know that you exist?

Shinji is all alone in minus space (a "limitless" place) after Yui & Gendo got speared.
That's probably dangerous in some way, probably you risk losing your 'boundaries' - (Mari says she made it "just in time" after all)

Then when another person arrives, everything gets sharp & normal-looking again. You can recognize them, & therefore yourself.
I though this was super clever actually.

Even if they did get together afterwards it seems nonsensical to read that into a scene that takes place before that. Maybe you could imagine the relief at being rescued & the aftermath of the rescue leading to something, he certainly looks happy to see her in a way that could be read as dazzled beyond just being glad to be rescued (and that someone came for him)
Mari is certainly the last in a long relay race of ppl showing Shinji support by actually coming to save him at great risk just how she said she would (a touching, meaningful thing after Shinji though/felt he was reviled by all in Q - )
But coming to get him was like 100% part of a plan they hatched earlier with Misato, it's not even an individual emotional act.
If you wanted to do a love at first sight thing you would've done it at the actual first sight... ^^°
Or if this occurred sometime in the early half of the movie when Shinji was actually in what one might call a grey, devoid-of-color mental state & it happened when Mari said one of her usual words of advice or something.

Looks like an EoTV reference to me.

I wish ppl would appreciate & dissect the actual movie instead of arguing about ships or the hypothetical purity thereof.

[Axx°N N.]

That was obvious (and awesome! - says me, a huge EoTv fan) reference to EoTVs sketchy animation especially the "world with nothing" sequence.

Yes, at the same time it's an obvious throwback, but within the same film the parallel is drawn between the color returning and Gendo and Yui, a solid (if not the only) example of a direct unambiguous pairing. It feels like willful ignorance to ignore it.

[bogusman]

Well, Mari is about as old as Yui (could be older if she's turn out to be meta being), was LCL scientist in the past time, so intimate/attached/supportive toward Asuka, and many other strange things which you could read them on another thread.

Even when all things about colours, waves, holding hands, "flirting" stuff, with those many other undeciphered things about her, one might be better not to jump into a simple conclusion yet of them ending being a lovers couple. Not to mention how the epilogue scene happens so sudden and the choker stuff.

She could just be a personification of "positive thing" or "good change" or anything that Shinji thinks as a good/wonderful thing.
Again, the scenes feels so meta.

Personally i like Mari, she's a cool character with nice designs, could even be my favorite. But to be end up as a couple, i think it reduce the coolness of the character.
It's like jack sparrow end up with elizabeth swan. They had a different role in the story.

[Kendrix]

the parallel is drawn between the color returning and Gendo and Yui

Have you actually seen the film in full tho? Or are you saying stuff you've never seen is a "visual paralel2?

If it's the same sketchy effect I concede defeat, but, like, if the gendo sequence just has a generic sepia filter I'm not buying it.

Sketch & black & white are different things.

I mean it makes sense for Gendo since he was previously uninterested in everything/ not attached for anything but Mari would hardly be the first person Shnji is attached to.
Nor is Gendo & Yui generally the prime example of healthy good true love that should be emulated.

Usually the repeat of shorthands/ visual metaphors like that would mark scenes with a similar meaning.
Romance alone wouldn't be it not in this genre, not without actual... romance buildup you know?

So what's actually similar symbolism/dynamics wise between the two pairs?

And if Mari's supposed to be a good thing (which I'd agree she is), why would they visually tie her to the unholy union that doomed it all?

I'm not saying that there isn't a suggestion from the flirty line & the holding hands, it#s probably AN intended possibility - but if they didn't want it to be up for interpretation they'd make it explicit. Like wedding ring, kiss or pregnant belly explicit.

I know, things being up for interpretation, what a concept. Our world has almost forgotten it, as uncomfortable with ambiguity as it has become.

[Axx°N N.]

Have you actually seen the film in full tho? Or are you saying stuff you've never seen is a "visual paralel2?

It's from second-hand discussion where others who have seen it drew the parallel. Supposedly the effect occurs around this line: "But I met Yui and I learned to enjoy living." I think there's dialog elsewhere regarding 'color' too, unless I'm conflating things.

ETA: a word.

[Kendrix]

I looked it up in the script, no 'color' line anywhere in sight.

Indeed Gendo immediately starts going on about how only she understood him & how after that he could no longer deal with being by himself like he used to.

Again very odd choice like if you just wanted to show they're a couple (which would maybe make sense later but not at that point) - especially a good, positive one - why not somehow allude to Hikari & Touji, or Misato & Kaji?

[Axx°N N.]

Interesting, I thought there was a line elsewhere. As for the Gendo flashback scene, would be good for someone who saw the scene in question to confirm what the visual effect consists of if any. I might have been working off someone else's riffing.

As for couple parallels, what with Gendo & Yui turning into the couples version of Jesus with the self-spearing, they're definitely 'paired' in a heavy cosmological way. Misato & Kaji are just as tragic, and Toji and Hikari are normals compared to Mari (what is she anyway?) and Shinji, who's dipped into the godhead.

ETA: a word.

[swagbuckking1]

SERIOUS POST:
Honestly I don't mind that Shinji was with Mari in the end. She seems pretty well-adjusted and Shinji is comfortable around her. If she makes him happy then I suppose it's good. I do wish they had more interactions in 2.0 and 3.0 to better foreshadow the relationship but whatever.

SHITPOST:

As people may know, Ritsuko was one of my favorite characters from NGE and it would have made me extremely happy if Shinji somehow ended up with her (completely platonically of course ). I believe that Shinji should have reset the world back to the NGE timeline where all the angels/SEELE are defeated and Gendo actually mans up and marries Ritsuko so Shinji gets a "step-mom". See below images for reference:

SPOILER: Show

Visiting at work

SPOILER: Show

Episode 23 Revelations

SPOILER: Show

Ritsuko, NO!

[Mr. Tines]

What do you think?

I think it's a hoot -- like I said 12 years ago

And for gods Sake i hope they don't ruin the relationship of Asuka and Shinji.

The tears of S/A shippers are like sweet nectar to me. Shinji/Mari end confirmed.

Taking a story that was about immanentizing the eschaton on the surface, and overcoming depression as a subtext, and treating it as a harem series, was always going to be misguided.

All in all, I'm feeling vindicated across the board on this one.

That she turns out to be more than old enough to be his mother just adds to the giggle factor, I'm afraid.

[bogusman]

I'm curious about why does Mari's background adopted from sadamoto's manga, in which she'd had a significant age gap with Shinji.

Even before Shin, sadamoto said that there are no connections whatsoever of that chapter in the manga with the movie.

They could've made an entirely different background for her to at least match Shinji's age, if they are to be coupled in the end. And the one with Yui-Gendo is her mother. Or anything. They have a freedom for it.
After all, mari's wearing a school uniform in her first appearance anyway.

[Kendrix]

RE: The "color" sequence
...I've seen a vid.

I see why there's confusion because it's a complex surreal sequence, pretty cool really since it references all the water surface from above & below motifs they've had going on this whole time.

Basically Shinji & Mari leave minus space by jumping in the water, but they exit through another ocean (presumably in real world.)
So she emerges from water twice, two separate times.

There is no "color starts returning when Mari shows up", the animation returns to normal all at once when Shinji jumps in the water, that is returns to real life.

The order is like this:
- Shinji sits on a blue beach. It becomes Sketchy.
- Mari shows up in the sketch world - she's sketch as much as Shinji, and in full eVA gear.
- Shinji has a moment of being really shocked here which is just cute, he can barely believe ppl bothered to retrieve him.
Basically you see a crack in how he's been keeping it together for everyone else's sake, still same old Shinji underneath, very cute.
- She says, "Just in time!"
- Shinji runs towards her & jumps through the water surface that she emerged from
- Bam color - curiously enough, this includes stuff above the surface like EVA 08's legs
- Mari dives beneath the surface, after Shinji. EVA 08 desintegrates. She says bye to it.
- Mari emerges from another beach! Probably the real world one. This is the "ariel" shot. She's in her uniform.
- Shinji is already there, & hurried towards her in some agitation - he was evidently scared that she wouldn't escape.
- Mari says "Kept you waiting?" (in response to that. )

Then, very abrupt cut to the epilogue.

So "Just in time" and "kept you waiting" aren't said in the same place!

Also this means Mari is the last person to return with Shinji as the second to last - contrast how Shinji & Asuka were the first in EoE.


The meaning is probably NOT the same as EoTv, it just means they're still in minus space.

[Axx°N N.]

- Shinji sits on a blue beach. It becomes Sketchy.
- Mari shows up in the sketch world - she's sketch as much as Shinji, and in full eVA gear.

It's not 'sketchy,' they're production drawings like in the Groundworks books. Shinji is key frames, Mari is inbetweens (or vice verse, perhaps an animation expert can pinpoint). If you want to split hairs you can say 'color shows up because the real world returns,' but it's still a result of her appearance. Taken together, these two bits seem to heavily suggest Shinji is being complemented (in the original sense of Human Complementation, but also perhaps romantically) through Mari specifically.

[Kendrix]

no its a result of him going back to real life like the moment he goes through the "barrier."

minus space = sketch/storyboard/whatever (its cool that they still have numbers& notes on them! very meta.)
outside = full color

Are we going to discard that whole big recurring theme about reality & imagination/"fiction" to postulate some stupid ship point that is at most an afterthought & wasn't deemed important enough to get explicitly confirmed?

If it was meant to be tied to mari's person don't you think it would like... accentuate her in some way?

I highly presume the Yui thing, if its not a rumor altogether, does start when she actually first shows up or does something of note or at least like visibly manage from her.

... do so want the gendo sequence for like a bajillion reasons...

[Mr. Tines]

- She says, "Just in time!"
- Shinji runs towards her & jumps through the water surface that she emerged from
- Bam color - curiously enough, this includes stuff above the surface like EVA 08's legs

One misapprehension here ^

- Shinji runs towards her, while Mari dives from the shoulder of her Evangelion into the water surface that she emerged from

[Kendrix]

- Shinji runs towards her, while Mari dives from the shoulder of her Evangelion into the water surface that she emerged from

That IS definitely her hair
I did wonder how/when she got away from EVA 08. Time to rewind again...

[Axx°N N.]

no its a result of him going back to real life like the moment he goes through the "barrier."

And she later holds his hand running into and within a sudden switch to live-action. I don't see inconsistency here.

Are we going to discard that whole big recurring theme about reality & imagination/"fiction" to postulate some stupid ship point that is at most an afterthought & wasn't deemed important enough to get explicitly confirmed?

Not at all. She ushers him out of just himself and into reality. One doesn't have to be a romantic partner to do such a thing, but that's a rather sensible way to describe life-altering love.

It's the very end of the film, even before the epilog. If it's an afterthought, it's a needlessly elaborate and prominent one.

If it was meant to be tied to mari's person don't you think it would like... accentuate her in some way?

Such as her being the only character he interacts with for the rest of the film, that they're completely alone in the climactic last portion of Instrumentality, and run off into literal reality together in the very last scene? The camera gives her a money shot as she breaks through the water's surface a la some kind of fairy tale, the afforementioned key frame/inbetween symbolism, etc. etc.

... do so want the gendo sequence for like a bajillion reasons...

Same here. The clips so far seem way skewed into ship territory instead of just actual important scenes, kind of frustrating.

[Kendrix]

OK, it is indeed a complex sequence 'cause I got confused too.
So, rewinding was done.
Ok, looks like Shinji doesn't actually touch the water, he's just wet from Mari splashing him earlier. He's running towards Mari before she jumps & is still running when she comes out. The animation gets normal when Mari physically touches the water.

I'm not as confident that they're already "out" at this point - the one thing that might suggest a 'phase shift' is that Mari is suddenly in a different outfit just like Asuka was, but you could also read that as minus space weirdness & that they're not out until it cuts to the epilogue.

Shinji's probably just agitated because of the big jump she did (Chill Shin-chan, laws of physics don't apply there, she probably can't break her bones here if she tried. Which is probably the exact reason why she just haaad to try it. )

I concede that you could reasonably see this as her being 'emphasized' then.
Though I still don't think that is the reasoning, & that it's probably an EoTv esque 'everything becomes more distinct with a second person' & general flavor portrayal of minus space as 'meta', but this would be opinion not certainty.

Even if we deadass assume they're an item in the epilogue (which is dubious in itself - but there's more than enough time for that to happen.), by the time the sequence takes place all Shinji would have at that point is probably a good first-impression of her as a nice dependable person who gives good advice & perhaps a budding friendship - we didn't even rly see him reacting to her physical appearance,( though there wouldn't be time for that, given the tone/mood).
& sure you could reasonably imagine that blossoming into a relationship, maybe right away, but probably not until Shinji's a good bit taller -
But by that point, there was nothing that would merit such great importance/flowery language as saying she "brought the color to his life" or whatever.
It just doesn't stand up to occam's razor when much more parsimonious explanations are there, unless we're explicitly in the romance genre.

Even the actual actors who performed it aren't sure how much of the last bits is literal so let's not act like there's any super obvious explanation that everyone else is just too dumb to see.