I translated Evangelion 3.0+1.0 booklet Interview.
I have started with Kazuya Tsurumaki, for the next one I'm thinking is Mahiro Maeda.
I heard that Megumi Hayashibara's part has not been translated yet. So I'm planning to do that too, after Maeda.
But, should Megumi Hayashibara's part be given priority? Please let me know your opinions.
Kazuya Tsurumaki, Director
Pre-Visualization is the key to a new way of making animation.
--When did you start working on "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 THRICE UPON A TIME"?
Tsurumaki
I went to Paris for location scouting in the summer of 2017, and then started storyboarding the prologue scene that plays before the opening.
--How many people went on location scouting in Paris?
Tsurumaki
There were six of us, mainly 3DCG animators and modelers.
--What is your role in EVANGELION: 3.0+1.0?
Tsurumaki
First of all, Anno proposed to me that he wanted to try a different way of making the film. He said, "I want to try a method other than the usual method of drawing a storyboard and deciding on the layout," and I thought it would be tough but interesting. I think it was probably an idea that came out of his experience with Shin Godzilla. My feeling is that the completion of the storyboard accounts for about 80% of the overall quality of the animation. You don't have to work on anything other than what is specified in the storyboard, so it's very efficient. The scene is created by building up the cuts one by one as instructed by the storyboard. In live-action filming, the scene is created first, shot from multiple angles, and then edited to select the best one. There are cases where a storyboard is drawn, but even so, multiple images are shot and then edited to complete the final product. A series of scenes are shot from multiple angles, including some that are not specified in the script, and the best cuts are selected and assembled in the final editing. I think he wanted to do something similar with "EVANGELION: 3.0+1.0".
--Does that mean you need to create a PreVisualization?
Tsurumaki
Yes, in many scenes, we made PreVisualization (a simulation image that assumes the completed form with simple CGI or models in advance before producing the finished image). Nowadays, there are not a few animations that make PreVisualization, but I think it is just a flow of "storyboard -> PreVisualization". After the storyboard is created, revisions are made during the PreVisualization process to achieve a more complete storyboard. In fact, "Shin Godzilla" was made in a similar way, but this time, Anno wanted to make the previsualization first, without going through the storyboarding process, and then complete the storyboarding process. It might be easier to say that he is creating a video storyboard. It was a fresh and interesting process to think that 3DCG, which is somewhere between animation and live-action, could be a good combination of animation and live-action by using live-action production methods.
--I heard that you used a virtual camera for the PreVisualization production.
Tsurumaki
In addition to setting up the stage in 3DCG and using virtual cameras to determine the angles, we also used motion capture to combine the actors' performances. We also built miniature sets and took pictures, so it was a combination of special effects, animation, and 3DCG. Since he was a student, Anno has been making films without separating animation and live-action special effects, so he has no problem with this kind of thing, in fact, it must be a natural feeling for him. In "Nakam Rider," which he shot in his high school days, the battle on the roof of the school building was shot in the usual way, the cutout of the fall from the roof was made by cutting out a photo and using a flowing PAN (an animation technique that slides a background drawn to look like it is flowing), and the explosion was animated using dynamic photography (in this case, moving images drawn with paints and shot in stop motion). ). It's a mix of completely different elements in one work. I'm sure that the way he mixed 3DCG, miniatures, and hand-drawn animation is nothing special for him. However, there are only a few staff members who have had this experience. Obviously, I'm no different, so I didn't really know how to proceed with the actual work, or what the methodology would be... As I only knew how to make normal animation, I was completely at a loss as to how to proceed.
--It's quite different from the way the animation is done.
Tsurumaki
We have a script, but no storyboard, so we don't know the total amount of work. Moreover, PreVisualization is updated daily, so scenes may disappear and cuts may increase. We had no idea where to start, whether the scenes we were working on were really necessary, or how much work we would end up doing. I didn't even have an estimate, so I was just groping my way through the process. The storyboard is a creative part, but it is also a production part that determines the specific work to be done and the total amount of work to be done, and the animation production field is not designed so that the entire process can be carried out without instructions, so we had a hard time. By trying a completely different approach, I felt like I was opening up a new channel.
Part A approaching the live-action look, the actual work is a continuous struggle.
--How was it working on Part A?
Tsurumaki
I did some simple modeling in 3DCG, recorded the actors' performances in motion capture, and then used a virtual camera to determine the layout. Even if the actors' performances themselves were good, when I reproduced them in 3D models, the poses and movements would be loose and rough. Both the background 3DCG and the motion capture were rough, so in Part A, I had to keep working to make them look natural. It was difficult because it was very detailed work, and more importantly, we were groping.
--What was the most difficult part?
Tsurumaki
I had to create images that I've avoided in previous "Eva" works. For example, a character walking slowly from the back to the front. They stand up naturally. They sit down. In addition, everyday actions such as planting rice have been increased this time.
--General Director Anno once said, "Everyday acts such as coming into a room, sitting down and drinking a cup of coffee deliciously are likely to fail because the audience is used to seeing them. Even if it succeeds, it will look natural and will be passed over, so avoid it." So that's what you are doing.
Tsurumaki
The rice planting scene was particularly difficult. It was based on a movie of actual movement, but even if we didn't go as far as rotoscoping (a technique of tracing live action into animation), we wanted the movement to be just like that of live action, including camera shake, so the animators worked hard to achieve it.
--In the rushes (unedited prints with no sound or previews of the prints to check the shooting conditions), there was a section with live action next to the animation, was that the cut you were referring to?
Tsurumaki
That's right. It's a little different from the rotoscoping that you know (it's not a complete reproduction, but a reference for poses and timing), but in some cuts, the live action is directly replaced by the animation. Anno didn't want a live-action look in the scenes where the actors were acting in a drawn image, so he tried to use anime rules for those scenes. There are times when a character enters the screen from an unexpected angle without any preliminary movement, and the movement can look strange at first glance. I think Anno wanted the film to look like it was shot with a telephoto lens. Many scenes, such as close-ups of the hands, were taken from actual footage.
General Director Anno, who experienced live-action, aims to do what is impossible with existing animation.
--I was surprised at how different my impression was when I first read the storyboard and saw the near-finished rushes (unedited prints with no sound or previews of the prints to check the shooting conditions).
Tsurumaki
It's very different from the previous "Eva" series.
Ever since the TV series, I've been trying to do things that have never been done before in anime, so I've taken the direction of "sharpening the images". We have been experimenting with omitting things, replacing them with different things, and so on. In the "Rebuild of Evangelion" series, it had been a while since I had done anything like that, and I wanted to get back to that style of direction for ":1.0". In Rebuild of Evangelion, I was deeply moved by the fact that the challenge of doing something that hadn't been done before in anime had finally come to this point.
--Is this related to the incorporation of live-action methodologies?
Tsurumaki
I think that "Shikijitsu" and "Cutie Honey" were made with live-action rules. However, I think that "Shin Godzilla" was made with the idea that what was done in "Eva" could be done in live-action films. Of course, he mixed the "Eva" style with the live-action style to create a new style. And this time, I think he's feeding that new style back into "Rebuild of Evangelion" again. I think that's why he wants to put live-action elements into the animation.
--How did you feel about the live-action methodology?
Tsurumaki
There are good things about animation and good things about live-action, but there are also bad things or things that they are not good at. With animation, the editing process is practically complete at the storyboard stage, so there is no waste. With animation, the editing process is practically complete at the storyboard stage, so there is no waste. In live-action, for example, we shoot the entire scene. Even if you shoot the scene until the characters walk away from the room after the conversation is over, the resulting editing in the final stage may end the scene with the end of the conversation. In that case, the act of walking away from the room is not used. In the case of a normal animation, whether or not the act of walking away after a conversation is necessary is decided at the storyboard stage, so there is no waste. Even if, at the end of the production, you still want the scene where he leaves, it's basically impossible. This is one of the disadvantages of animation, but on the other hand, it is also an advantage in that there is no waste and it is overwhelmingly efficient. It's a shame that the work you put so much effort into drawing isn't being used. If using 3DCG can bring together the best of animation and live action, that would be wonderful.
--By the way, how did you feel about part C?
Tsurumaki
The C part was made in a relatively normal anime style. Anno also requested that we "keep this part normal". I drew the storyboard, created the PreVisualization from it, and then revised the storyboard.
How close can we make the "lie" of film to reality?
--How did you feel about the conclusion of the series after being involved with "Eva" for so long?
Tsurumaki
When we started the Rebuild of Evangelion series, about 10 years had passed since the TV series, and the number of fans had changed and the number of younger people had increased. So we decided to make a compilation that would allow people to enjoy Eva without having to watch the entire TV series. That was the starting point. We started with the idea that only the end of the four-part series might change, but basically 80% of the series would be a compilation, but that started to shift with ":2.0", and ":3.0" will start from a scene 14 years later, which is not even depicted in the TV series...
--So it became something unexpected along the way.
Tsurumaki
I thought that we were going to make something that would not put Anno in a state where he would be trapped like he was in the TV series and the previous "film version". I thought, " We've already experienced the extremes of that kind of thing, so we've had enough of that." I thought, "It's good to be able to make 'Eva' 10 years later, looking at the chaos from a bird's eye view." By doing so, it would result in a more " easy to watch" Eva. However, as it turned out, I got caught up in the chaos once again in ":3.0" (laughs).
--Did you recreate even the "chaotic" aspects of the TV series, which Anno described as "live"?
Tsurumaki
In the beginning, Anno may have thought that he could do a controlled creative work that didn't cross the line, given his experience in the strict live-action production system and his perspective as a director as well as a manager. However, when he started making the film, he was not satisfied with that. "It'd be lying if I didn't portray my own films as my own." And he may have thought, "Such a lie has little value as entertainment." Perhaps only Anno himself can understand this feeling.
--When I look at Anno's works, I feel that he has a way of making things that doesn't lie to himself. This is also the case with EVANGELION: 3.0+1.0 THRICE UPON A TIME.
Tsurumaki
He's very serious. That's for sure. But I think there is objectivity in "Shin Godzilla". It doesn't look like Anno is so absorbed in the characters that he is projecting himself onto them. If that's the case with "Eva," I thought it would be possible to portray Shinji and Gendo as separate from himself.
--It seems to be difficult to reproduce Anno's sense of "realism" in a group work.
Tsurumaki
On the one hand, he wants to be realistic, but on the other hand, he prefers cartoonish expressions influenced by old anime and special effects, expressions full of bluffing and keeping the truth hidden that can hardly be called realistic, and simplified cartoonish expressions. I don't know how to switch back and forth between these two extremes. That's a switch that only Anno can understand, so I wanted the storyboard to be a blueprint with instructions for that switch as well.
--But in "Eva", he drew the storyboards as well, didn't he?
Tsurumaki
For quite some time now, Anno has been saying that he doesn't want to draw storyboards and that he wants to make anime in a way that doesn't require storyboards. In fact, in "Rebuild of Evangelion", Anno did not draw most of the storyboards. I, Masayuki, Masahiro Maeda, and other staff drew the storyboards, and Anno himself drew only the parts that did not go according to his image. We play a role like an action supervisor in a live-action movie. In live-action films, the movements of the action scenes are decided by a specialist called an action supervisor. The director directs the main flow of the scene, but the action supervisor comes up with the ideas for the more detailed actions, decides on the arrangements, and then the actors perform them. If the director finds it interesting, he shoots it, and if not, he asks for corrections. The movements that are created in this way are shot with several cameras and many takes are edited to create the most appropriate scene for the director. In the same way, we draw the action storyboards like an action supervisor, and Anno edits them. However, unlike in live-action, we decide the best angle beforehand. Usually in anime, you draw a lot of image boards, and then you draw a storyboard using the image boards, and then you start the drawing process. For example, Royal Space Force: The Wings of Honnêamise was made in that way. The core creative staff interacts a lot in the creation of image boards and storyboards. As a result, the staff begins to understand what expressions are acceptable and what expressions are not, and what is cool and what is not. A certain common understanding is created among the staff. It seems that Anno was always searching for a different way to make a film, because he had seen that way of making a film completed in "Royal Space Force". However, although the drawing staff can improve and make more interesting what is drawn on the storyboard, they can't draw the original pictures directly from the script in the absence of a storyboard. If you want to do that, you have to train professional staff for that kind of production system.
The most important thing is to convince Director Anno.
--Anno's own "realism" comes out in his works, but what did you think about the many elements of Mali that you came up with for ":2.0"?
Tsurumaki
I think the Mari in "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 THRICE UPON A TIME" has changed a lot in terms of meaning since ":2.0". In ":2.0", when Anno himself created the character, he inevitably became himself, just like Shinji, so I think he wanted to make Mari a different character, so he entrusted her to an external person. In "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 THRICE UPON A TIME," which has a strong Anno element, I was surprised at how much this person was involved in the core of the story, and not just Mari. Mari is one of them. I originally thought that Mari should be a character that Anno would like, so I'm glad that the story and she ended up being well connected.
--Do you have any personal attachment to the story or the characters?
Tsurumaki
Of course, "Eva" is an important work for me, and I have been involved with it since the beginning of the TV series, so a part of me is projected onto "Eva", but I still feel that it is Anno's work. In making "EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 THRICE UPON A TIME", I thought it was important that Anno be satisfied with the result, first and foremost. The first priority was to make sure that Anno was satisfied with the result. That was the only thing that mattered to me.
--You mean that everyone was concentrating all their attention on what Anno wanted to do and trying to make it happen?
Tsurumaki
On the other hand, in EVANGELION:3.0+1.0 THRICE UPON A TIME, Anno asked the staff for their opinions. He didn't just ask the main staff like myself, Mahilo Maeda, and Ikki Todoroki, but he also asked the production staff and office staff for their opinions. From the clothing design to the nuances of the dialogue, I think unexpectedly he may have balanced there.
Surviving the Epidemic of the New Coronavirus
--This time, there was a major change in the staff, including the animation director.
Tsurumaki
A lot of people who hadn't been involved in "Eva" before joined us, but they were all very good, so we were relieved.
--How was the atmosphere on the studio?
Tsurumaki
When working on an animation film, there is a sense that enthusiasm rises toward the end of the film, and then the film finally goes into production. I think that if you have two years of production time, you should start seriously from the beginning, but it is impossible to start the engine until the end of the project. I can feel it when I see the staff working as one in the same studio, but this time, because of the new Corona, the animation director and other staff had to work separately, so I couldn't really feel the peak period. From the animation director's point of view, since the cuts are coming in and the schedule is set, we should all have the same feeling toward the goal, but during this peak period, we didn't share the same feeling of "Let's work hard together!" I wish we could have done it together in the same place. I wish I could have been there to share my passion for the project, especially with the staff I was working with for the first time.
--How was your own work with the Corona Damages?
Tsurumaki
I have a nature that doesn't allow me to work at home, so I stayed in the studio all the time, even when the corona disaster was said to be the most dangerous. I was told that I would be fine as long as the population density in the studio decreased. As it turned out, some of the animation directors and others worked from home, and the density of the studio was reduced, so I was able to stay in the studio, which was a big help.
--Coincidentally, I feel that this work is needed by those of us who have passed through the Corona disaster.
Tsurumaki
Anno is sensitive to such a sense of skin that is close to the times and society. At first glance, people tend to think that he only makes what he likes, but he is not only making what he likes. I think it is interesting that he pays attention to the social situation and the atmosphere around him, and that he knows what he should be making now. While he is a geek who loves old movies and anime, I feel that he is also trying to somehow incorporate the current atmosphere within the scope of what his hands can touch.
・・・
Kazuya Tsurumaki
Born in Niigata Prefecture. After working at Studio Giants, he joined "Nadia, The Secret of Blue Water" as an animator. After working at Studio Giants, he joined "Nadia: The Mysterious Sea" as an animator, and worked on "Neon Genesis Evangelion" as an assistant director for the TV series, as a director for "Evangelion: Rebirth", and as a director for "Air". He has directed all three films in the Rebuild of Evangelion series.
I'm also working on a translation of the Eva:1.0 interview(2007) with Tsurumaki now. If you're interested in, please visit my site and check other articles.
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