Is episode 7 skippable?

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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby baldur » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:07 pm

To be honest, I really don't feel like reading this discussion on episode 10 lol so I'll just pop in and out to say that I definitely don't think episode 10 is skippable and I'm actually not even sure why it has that kind of reputation. It's probably among the least great episodes of NGE, but that's not really saying much. I certainly think it provides important characterization, and hell, any episode where an Angel is taken out is pretty vital in my eyes.

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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby Kendrix » Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:11 am

mh. often its the ones where no angel gets downed that have the most unique character/flavor moments.

Episodes 4, 15 and 17 come to mind.

15 is chock full of iconic moments; 4 is something you're unlikely to see in most other animes like a whole ep just centered around the protag being super shaken from their first combat experience. Ep 17 has Rei doing a cute blushy face and why would you ever want to skip that?
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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:28 am

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:I guess I just get instinctively disgusted whenever I see a fictional woman talking about their breasts for no apparent reason. It tends to be one of the main indicators of the "no real woman acts like this" syndrome I talked about earlier. It's weird in some of Anno's other work, too: remember the bath scene from Gunbuster where the Soviet lady talks about her breasts floating in space, or the whole "Mari's breasts are too big for the plugsuit" thing from Rebuild 2.0? I do admit that the Asuka bikini scene could potentially be justified, though.

[...]

Well, I would buy the whole "it's fine to pleasure the audience, it's not sexist" thing more if the men in the series were sexualized too. But Eva, and way too many anime, really play off of the male gaze: the main ladies get a bunch of shots ogling their boobs and butt for no apparent reason, while the men pretty much never get that treatment. It's part of that "unconsciously assuming that the viewer is a straight man" thing you mentioned.

[...]

I feel like I have to clarify that the boner isn't the main thing I have a problem with, although it is weird. The main thing I have a problem with is the "bad porno" moment that immediately proceeds it. I mean, Misato apparently groping Asuka while Misato says "Your skin is so soft and smooth" and Asuka says "No, don't touch me there!" feels like the epitome of the "no real woman acts like that" syndrome. To answer EvaChero's question, contrary to what anime fans might think, randomly touching someone's breasts isn't a casual bonding exercise between women in real life Japan.

At this point this feels more like a "these portions of episode ten make me uncomfortable and I personally don't like watching it" argument rather than a "this episode is skippable" argument. Or to put it another way, an argument as to why someone might have personal reasons for not wanting to rewatch an episode rather than whether or not an episode is by-and-large rewatchable.

I'm not a fan of phrases such as "no real woman acts like this" and "too many anime play off the male gaze". I find it a sort of talk that pigeonholes women into clean, pure boxes where they would never dare say something raunchy, where any overt sexualization is taboo. (Also... women in Japan will absolutely randomly touch someone's breasts. Source: worked as an ALT in a rural prefecture for a year, heard a lot of great stories.) With all due respect, you've marked that you're a sixteen-year old boy. Women aren't monolithic, and behave in ways that it's entirely possible you haven't been exposed to yet.

I don't begrudge you your dislike of episode 10 for the reasons you've laid out above. People are made uncomfortable by all sorts of things, sex being one of them. But the more I listen to you explain your reasoning, the more I feel what you're laying out are personal reasons why you don't want to watch the episode again, rather than general tenets that make the episode something that ought to be considered skippable. I don't think raunchy humor or character sexualization is in and of itself enough to make an episode like Magma Diver unwatchable.

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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:28 am

I get what you’re saying about my arguments really being a matter of personal preference. I have made no claims about my arguments being objective in any way, and I understand that many people won’t be bothered by the thing I’m bothered by.

But I disagree with your opinions about the sexual stuff. I’m not arguing that women are pure or it’s impossible for them to be sexual. I’m just repeating arguments from feminist literary critics, most of whom are women. They aren’t opposed to sexuality in fiction, they just want women to be treated realistically and without horny glasses on. Real women don’t have this weird breast fixation like they do in anime. Your friends in Japan might have said that the whole “groping as a bonding exercise” trope is true, but people say a lot of things, and I can’t find anything about it online.

And “male gaze” doesn’t just mean “women being portrayed sexually”: it only applies when the sexualization is disproportionally applied to women instead of men. And Eva is definitely an example of that: like I said, there are endless shots in Eva ogling the female characters’ boobs and butt, but no equivalent shots for any of the male characters. It assumes that the only people who would want to watch this show are straight men, and that’s exactly what the feminist critics are complaining about.

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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby baldur » Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:29 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:mh. often its the ones where no angel gets downed that have the most unique character/flavor moments.

Episodes 4, 15 and 17 come to mind.

15 is chock full of iconic moments; 4 is something you're unlikely to see in most other animes like a whole ep just centered around the protag being super shaken from their first combat experience. Ep 17 has Rei doing a cute blushy face and why would you ever want to skip that?

I definitely don't disagree. The episodes you mentioned are some of my absolute favorites in the series. I just think that an Angel being taken out is such an important plot progression that skipping it doesn't really make sense. But, then again, the same can be said for pretty much every episode in the series. Bottom point don't skip NGE episodes lol.

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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:39 pm

Just posting this to remind Nuclear Lunchbox that I’ve moved the conversation on sexualization and Eva’s approach to it into the “Is anyone else bothered by the sexualization of characters in Eva?” thread. I’d appreciate it if the conversation could continue there.

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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby YTPrenewed » Thu May 06, 2021 12:22 am

Image

Shinji complaining about Misato's sloppiness and even going so far as to make a cheap shot at her for being single shows that, while he has some people-pleaser tendencies, they're far from absolute. (If anything, I think he went too far then.) He was kind of assertive when talking to Misato in ep 1 as well, but that's before the events of episodes 1 through 6. Episode 7 shows that some of that lasted, and/or rebounded. It leaves less clear how much of it was over her household sloppiness and how much of that was out of concern for her over her day-drinking; his concern for her also comes through later in the episode when she puts herself in harm's way for others as well.

So when he acts meeker and milder around Asuka and Rei, it suggests something else is also at play here. Whether it's because he's more attracted to them, (ep 20 fantasies notwithstanding, he wasn't exactly as open to Misato's advances in ep 23 as Asuka's in ep 15) and/or finds Asuka more intimidating, and/or considers Rei so saintly that he feels being meek and apologetic around her is the least he can do... or whatever else. "People pleaser" is part of it, but it's not the whole story. Whatever else combines with that to make him hold back around Asuka and Rei, its role is to his anger like water to a wildfire. It puts it out the first time but helps the fuel for next time grow.

Which is another part of why I contrasted that with ep 25. Prior to that, the only thing Shinji is shown scowling at Misato that strongly over was said day drinking and/or sloppiness, yet Misato seems to picture him as some sort of abstinence-until-marriage zealot, and/or jealous of Kaji. (Despite Shinji turning her down... though with his indecisiveness I wouldn't put anything past him.) It's like she's projecting the kinds of things some adults obsess over (EDIT: I'm aware not all do) onto someone who doesn't even have a grown-up's priorities yet. Of course, I'm not sure how much the instrumentality scenes were meant to reflect the characters' real feelings, but I doubt Misato's other colleagues looked down on her as much as she seemed to be imagining them to either.

. . .

Character drama aside, the whole "extralegal protection" line was pretty important too. It established that this was the kind of show whose protagonists do the kinds of things that popular opinion condemns in real life. And it turned out there was more where that came from.
Last edited by YTPrenewed on Sun May 09, 2021 8:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu May 06, 2021 12:34 am

View Original PostYTPrenewed wrote:EDIT: This image is what I meant to start the thread off with. Not sure why the link isn't working.
What is served from that URL is a web page with the image included in it, and not just the image itself. You have to click it and endure the advertising to see the whole thing.
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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby YTPrenewed » Thu May 06, 2021 12:50 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:
View Original PostYTPrenewed#922175 wrote:EDIT: This image is what I meant to start the thread off with. Not sure why the link isn't working.
What is served from that URL is a web page with the image included in it, and not just the image itself. You have to click it and endure the advertising to see the whole thing.

Never mind, then, I'll just use a different image host, one that doesn't disguise URLs as image links. Thanks!

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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby Xenoblade » Tue May 11, 2021 5:55 pm

I feel like Episodes 7, 10 and 14 are the closest the TV series gets to filler. You could probably skip all three of them and miss very little, though they're all good enough for flavour.
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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby YTPrenewed » Tue May 11, 2021 11:51 pm

View Original PostXenoblade wrote:I feel like Episodes 7, 10 and 14 are the closest the TV series gets to filler. You could probably skip all three of them and miss very little, though they're all good enough for flavour.

14, maybe, but 7 establishes what I pointed out above, and 10 establishes how far Shinji will go in helping Asuka before his defeatist attitude from EoE sets in. (And that poolside chat's BGM gets re-used in ep 26, and how familiar it sounds really drives home how far the tone had shifted over the 15 episodes between them.)

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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed May 12, 2021 2:04 am

View Original PostXenoblade wrote:I feel like Episodes 7, 10 and 14 are the closest the TV series gets to filler. You could probably skip all three of them and miss very little, though they're all good enough for flavour.

I've talked at length about episodes seven and ten, so it seems like it's time for me to ardently defend episode 14!

Yes, arguably the first half of the episode is recap... but it still manages to tread new ground. We learn the names of all the angels for the first time, and we get to hear excerpts from essays and notes from the supporting cast like Toji about his sister following the Sachiel fight, Hikari about the evacuation during the Shamshel fight, and Kensuke's insight about Rei from the Ramiel fight. (Some very on-the-nose observations from Kensuke.)

The second half of the episode has Rei's famous monologue, which almost makes the episode worth it in and of itself. It reveals so much about her, and only gets better when you watch it for the second time. It also has the interchangeability test between Rei and Shinji in their respective units which includes a few tidbits about Asuka and Unit 02, a smidge of development between Maya and Ritsuko, as well as Unit 00 going berserk (which is loaded with significance in repeat viewings with all the imagery, along with Ritsuko's line that she's sure Unit 00 just tried to kill her). There's also the ending shot of Rei walking down a long corridor with the Spear of Longinus, presumably to stick it into Lilith.

Episode 14 is, again, probably not in my top five-- but I'd say it's certainly not filler!

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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby baldur » Wed May 12, 2021 12:52 pm

I completely agree with Nuclear Lunchbox, especially that Rei's monologue pretty much redeems the entire episode.

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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby Xenoblade » Wed May 12, 2021 1:23 pm

View Original PostYTPrenewed wrote:14, maybe, but 7 establishes what I pointed out above, and 10 establishes how far Shinji will go in helping Asuka before his defeatist attitude from EoE sets in. (And that poolside chat's BGM gets re-used in ep 26, and how familiar it sounds really drives home how far the tone had shifted over the 15 episodes between them.)


Ah yes, that music is playing in my head now. It is a nice contrast. I also don't think its segment of Asuka flirting with Shinji, or the segment of Kaji doing spy things are without merit. Given the way the show's pace picks up shortly afterwards, these sorts of things need to be established at some point or they'd make later events seem like they came out of the blue.

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:The second half of the episode has Rei's famous monologue, which almost makes the episode worth it in and of itself. It reveals so much about her, and only gets better when you watch it for the second time.


View Original Postbaldur wrote:I completely agree with Nuclear Lunchbox, especially that Rei's monologue pretty much redeems the entire episode.


Rei giving a name or respectful title to others and then casually not remembering Asuka's name was a great touch. Peak Rei.

It's still a clip show episode at the end of the day, though. I think if for some reason you had to skip an episode of the main series, I'd go with ep. 14. But yeah..."filler" is harsh. There is not a lot of filler in Eva.
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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Wed May 12, 2021 2:13 pm

Eh, I personally think Rei's monologue is overrated. I mean, it's basically just Rei making fairly obvious observations in a way that tries to sound deep and meaningful, mixed in with phrases that just make no sense at all. It's one of the few times where the show really crossed the line from "deep" to "pretentious" in my opinion.

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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby YTPrenewed » Thu May 13, 2021 3:13 pm

I think the poem helped set the stage for the shift in tone for the second half of the series. I doubt it's a coincidence they waited until that second half had started. The first half; especially the last few episodes of that half; were mainly "monster of the week" with some emergency management themes thrown in. After that recap, the poem gave you a glimpse of the other themes they'd be going into further later on.

That said, you could always skip the first half of the episode to get straight to the poem. I watched the whole thing because I was avoiding spoilers (apart from those I came across before getting around to watching the show) and didn't know that 14 was mostly a clip show. However, I don't claim to know how vital it was or wasn't to the overall experience. I'm guessing "not very", but I suppose it doesn't hurt to know which scenes they wanted to emphasize before moving on. You could always multi-task that part with other things.

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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby Kendrix » Fri May 14, 2021 1:01 pm

The timing has more to do with Anno being out of Rei-related ideas between eps 7 and 13, but it worked out in his favor since ppl generally thought he was being mysterious on purpose.

Apparently he was inspired to make this bit after reading a book with poetry by mental patients (I believe it's somewhere in the quote collection linked at the beginning'untranslated materials" thread) & this is probably also where the use of vague psychological-sounding terms in eps 16 and 18 came from.

I like it; I remember trying to replicate the style for a school assignment at one point, But obviously nothing is every gonna hit every single person's personal taste buttons.

I admit that I don't always bother with the first half in rewatches, the only noteworthy bits are the brief narrations by Misato and the three classmates,Hikari's is a nice worldbuilding touch; Kensuke's really shows his insightful side, Misato's shows that she appreciated Shinji's actions a lot more than she let on while trying to scold him for his own good etc.

That, and the American SEELE member getting flack for being too upset about all those boats sunk by the combined efforts of Gaghiel and Asuka. Rare moment where one of em looks human.
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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby Derantor » Fri May 14, 2021 4:10 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:That, and the American SEELE member getting flack for being too upset about all those boats sunk by the combined efforts of Gaghiel and Asuka. Rare moment where one of em looks human.

IIRC., those are not members of SEELE but the Human Instrumenetality Committee - a suborganization which doesn't even know what's really going on, but I could be mistaken.

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Re: Is episode 7 skippable?

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Postby Lavinius » Sat May 15, 2021 3:20 am

View Original PostDerantor wrote:IIRC., those are not members of SEELE but the Human Instrumenetality Committee - a suborganization which doesn't even know what's really going on, but I could be mistaken.

The HIC are refered to as Seele and are following in episode 14, even though they don't appear in monolith form until episode 21. Moreover, at least some of their voices can be heard coming from the monoliths (the Frenchman's is the most memorable).
There are lines earlier in the series that certainly make it sound like the HIC barely know what's going on. Watsonianly you can play those earlier parts as them being ironic amongst themselves, and in the case of Gendou talking to Chinese Man On Plane, them throwing out misinformation about their workings. But IRL this is certainly an example of Eva just improvising its plot.
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