Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:19 pm

View Original Postbaldur wrote:Concurrency is not confirmed, and even if it was, 26' still takes place entirely during Instrumentality, not after it.

Lav was actually talking about EoE there: Episode 26' is another term for EoE's second half. Note the apostrophe.
or the woman he's been grooming since, like, 17 (before he casts her aside to be raped, of course).

Can we please stop spreading the "SEELE gangraped Ritsuko" theory as fact? It doesn't even make any sense: the SEELE people were clearly in their monolith forms the entire conversation, so they were completely across the globe from NERV headquarters, and there's no way they could have assaulted Ritsuko like that. Keel and the other members are psychopaths and cultists, but I don't think they're rapists.

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby baldur » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:25 pm

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:Lav was actually talking about EoE there: Episode 26' is another term for EoE's second half. Note the apostrophe.

You're 100% right, I don't know how that slipped past me :facepalm:. I even typed out 26' with the apostrophe. My bad.
Still, during Instrumentality vs. post-Instrumentality.

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:Can we please stop spreading the "SEELE gangraped Ritsuko" theory as fact? It doesn't even make any sense: the SEELE people were clearly in their monolith forms the entire conversation, so they were completely across the globe from NERV headquarters, and there's no way they could have assaulted Ritsuko like that. Keel and the other members are psychopaths and cultists, but I don't think they're rapists.

Wait, people argue that SEELE did it directly? I thought the common hypothesis was that they used guards/henchmen. Either way, I don't know how else to interpret the lines and imagery. In any case, my point that Gendo is manipulative very much still stands - that was just a minor footnote anyway.

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:33 pm

View Original Postbaldur wrote:Wait, people argue that SEELE did it directly? I thought the common hypothesis was that they used guards/henchmen.

I checked the theory again, and you're actually right: the theory says that SEELE had some other guys do it for them. That makes the theory a lot more plausible, and now I actually might be able to buy it.

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Lavinius » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:41 pm

View Original Postbaldur wrote:Sorry, what? 1) How exactly does "Lilith moves parts of her body around" correlate to "Lilith sends visions of Ghost Rei to people"? 2) And why would Lilith be sending visions to Shinji before he meets Rei, pilots an Eva, or even sees an Angel? 3) How does Lilith reap the souls of those who died before Third Impact, like Misato and Ritsuko, if she has no ability to bend time? 4) Moreover, why do you even have a problem with this hypothesis in the first place?

In order:
1) It correlates because it shows that Lilith and her considerable powers aren't out of the picture while Lilith's soul is in Rei.
2) In case you haven't noticed, Lilith has at that point incarnated herself in a body that is a copy of Shinji's mother, is currently loyal to Shinji's father, and has Shinji's mother in the other half of her original body. She has plenty of relationship to Shinji already, even before she meets him.
3) Why does she need to be able to manipulate time to do that? Manipulating souls, gathering them, taking them into oneself- that's just what Seeds do (even Seeds without souls themselves!)

4) And I have a problem with it because it's like the sort of theory that claims that Shinji and Asuka had sex and that Asuka is pregnant because she says that she feels sick- making a massive upheaval in the understanding of the story in order to explain a minor point that has far more obvious explanations.

What, Rei was scared of becoming a deity, but turns out becoming a deity was actually cool and good? There is zero indication of the latter; the only shots of Rei we get post-Instrumentality are ominous and do not portray her as happy - quite the opposite.

The scenes we get of her persuading Shinji to agree to end Instrumentality are warm and tender and hopeful; those can't be counted as Instrumentality except with a huge asterisk. I see no reason to think that she's in horrible misery after just because she's not all smiles all the time.

And, yes, becoming a deity generally is cool & good, especially when it manifestly doesn't involve the bad things you were afraid it would involve.

The meme doesn't come from nowhere. Gendo isn't omnipotent; but he is misanthropic, and he is selfish, and he does treat other people like less than dirt. I think "evil" is a fair characterization.
He can and does. Also, sounds like you concede to him manipulating Rei.
He does. "Running away again?"
He manipulates Shinji plenty. His ultimatum ("Pilot or leave!"), as well as bringing out Rei in bandages, is one example of this. Same with how he makes sure to praise him very sparingly. Shinji only pilots because he wants his father to notice him. Gendo is aware of this and actively fosters this dependency.
Gendo doesn't have to be incredible with people to be manipulative. He's in a position of tremendous power over anyone he chooses to manipulate, whether that's his son, his foster daughter or the woman he's been grooming since, like, 17 (before he casts her aside to be raped, of course).
It feels very strange indeed having to explain how Gendo is manipulative, because it's just such an obvious part of who he is as a character - it's like making the case for Shinji being passive or Asuka being abrasive. It's just self-apparent.

Regarding Gendou manipulating Rei:
Most persons seem to assume that Gendou manipulates Rei in the following manner (exaggerated):
"I will take this poor, innocent girl and systematically abuse her and keep her in despair so she'll never get to find the happinness she'd get if only I'd let her be a normal girl, all so I can fulfil my plans using her."
Which has no support except by just outright imagining interactions between them dramatically different from all of the ones we actually see.
When in fact what's going on is:
"Here is my daughter, whom I have given the name I planned on giving my daughter, and whom I care about to the extent of completely breaking my cold facade and losing my shit whenever she's put in danger. Even though if she dies I can just reincarnate her.
Please however note that my daughter is also the primordial deity who created all life on this planet. I'm really not sure about this deity's intentions- perhaps she'd hate me for what we've done to her. I'll need this deity's power when the time comes. So I'm not going to tell her about that part. It shouldn't be a problem, to be honest. I trust Rei completely, she understands me, I understand her, she doesn't run away from me like my son does."
Which is, indeed, a considerably more bizzare relationship, and that doesn't even get into the mythological dynamics of what's going on in the Terminal Dogma scene.
The tl;dr, I guess, is that Gendou treats Rei-as-merely-Rei with as good a heart as he has (which isn't, again, even close to a good relationship, but it's still treating her with the love that's genuine for a self-loathing freak like him); it's Lilith he's trying to manipulate- and that just by not telling her who she is.

If you have evidence that Gendou groomed Ritsuko, please explain what it is.

Your other examples regarding Shinji aren't really persuasive. I don't see any reason to think that Gendou is expecting to change Shinji's mind by bringing in Rei. I think he's genuinely just concluding that Rei will have to do it, since Shinji won't.
It's the exact same thing he does the other times Shinji refuses to pilot. He shrugs, says something nasty but truthful, and then concludes that Rei will pilot Shogouki, as was always plan A. When Shinji runs away in episode 4, Gendou literally doesn't even do a thing.
The impression I've always gotten, indeed, that is that far from trying to get Shinji to pilot, Gendou is inwardly trying to repulse him. He's emotionally afraid of Shinji and wants him to leave. Which is why he makes absolutely no effort to get Shinji to stay.
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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby baldur » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:41 am

View Original PostLavinius wrote:4) And I have a problem with it because it's like the sort of theory that claims that Shinji and Asuka had sex and that Asuka is pregnant because she says that she feels sick- making a massive upheaval in the understanding of the story in order to explain a minor point that has far more obvious explanations.

Eh? I can only speak for myself, I suppose, but my immediate thought upon seeing Rei hovering over the red sea (mirroring her first appearence in the series) was something to the effect of "oh, right, that explains all that weird stuff before, Rei is like a ghostly space-time-bendy god person now, got it". I certainly don't think your explanation is the more obvious one, and evidently many seem to agree since Quantum Rei is very widely accepted from my experience.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:The scenes we get of her persuading Shinji to agree to end Instrumentality are warm and tender and hopeful; those can't be counted as Instrumentality except with a huge asterisk.

But why? That's still happening during Instrumentality. And yeah, it's warm and hopeful for Shinji, and for humanity, but Rei's not human no more, so.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:I see no reason to think that she's in horrible misery after just because she's not all smiles all the time.

I didn't say she'd be in horrible misery. I said she'd be detached from the human experience, and the person she once was would effectively "cease to exist" because of it. Like Dr. Manhattan sorta.

View Original PostLavinius wrote: especially when it manifestly doesn't involve the bad things you were afraid it would involve.

There is no scene in EoE where she looks into the camera and says "man, am I happy that becoming a deity did not involve the bad things I thought it would - that's a big weight off my back". There are scenes (post-Instrumentality) where she looks all lonely and detached and sullen, though. Which, to be fair, is not all that different from how she usually looks. But there's also what could be interpreted as a metaphorical death when her GNR form falls apart and all those MP Evas explode and her ghostly projection is released into the world untethered to space (and time). That kind of sounds like the sort of stuff Rei is afraid of in Episode 25, which is a scene that I presume was included for a reason.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:
The tl;dr, I guess, is that Gendou treats Rei-as-merely-Rei with as good a heart as he has (which isn't, again, even close to a good relationship, but it's still treating her with the love that's genuine for a self-loathing freak like him)

You know what? All right. When you phrase it like this I can understand and respect where you're coming from and even sort of agree with you. Not fully, but I don't think the intricacies are worth getting into, since we're on more even ground than I expected going into this.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:
If you have evidence that Gendou groomed Ritsuko, please explain what it is.

She's a recently orphaned 17 year old intern, and he's a person of innumerable power and influence who she already looks up to, and he clearly doesn't actually give much of a shit about her as a person? I don't know, maybe I just got groomy vibes, and it's all just my personal headcanon. But I can at least use Naoko as an example of someone that Gendo uses while blatantly not caring about them, right? And, again, why include this part of the story with the Akagis if there wasn't something to it? Why do they both end up driven to murder-suicide over him? Bitches be crazy?

View Original PostLavinius wrote:Your other examples regarding Shinji aren't really persuasive. I don't see any reason to think that Gendou is expecting to change Shinji's mind by bringing in Rei. I think he's genuinely just concluding that Rei will have to do it, since Shinji won't.

You don't have to buy every example but what I was trying to get at is that the relationship those two have is inherently exploitative. Even if all of what Gendo does is just subconscious and not intentionally malicious it's still manipulative or at least abusive.

View Original PostLavinius wrote: When Shinji runs away in episode 4, Gendou literally doesn't even do a thing.

...Did he have to? NERV catches up with him almost immediately, that whole thing kind of just resolves itself.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:The impression I've always gotten, indeed, that is that far from trying to get Shinji to pilot, Gendou is inwardly trying to repulse him. He's emotionally afraid of Shinji and wants him to leave. Which is why he makes absolutely no effort to get Shinji to stay.

So why did he demand he come in the first place? Obviously Gendo "runs away" from Shinji but that's a metaphor for emotional distance, not physical.

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Lavinius » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:33 am

Eh? I can only speak for myself, I suppose, but my immediate thought upon seeing Rei hovering over the red sea (mirroring her first appearence in the series) was something to the effect of "oh, right, that explains all that weird stuff before, Rei is like a ghostly space-time-bendy god person now, got it". I certainly don't think your explanation is the more obvious one, and evidently many seem to agree since Quantum Rei is very widely accepted from my experience.

I just think of making ghostly appearances as just something that Lilith can inherently do, since she does it all through the series, and not as a power she acquired upon obtaining the Fruit of Life, and then retroactively used all through the series. That seems needlessly complicated.
And so I see Rei's final appearance in the final scene as just showing, that yes, Rei's still around in some form or another and is still quietly watching over her Shinji.

Keep in mind also that by the end Yui has become the same sort of being "with both fruits, equal to a god" that Lilith has, and yet Fuyu (who narrates proceedings) never mentions anything about her transcending time in connection to this, and her own explanation of her plans seems to assume that even as a god she'll still be experiencing fully linear time.

but Rei's not human no more, so.

She's (re)acquired divinity, but that doesn't mean she's lost her humanity, unless you mean it in only the most vulgar sense.

She's a recently orphaned 17 year old intern, and he's a person of innumerable power and influence who she already looks up to, and he clearly doesn't actually give much of a shit about her as a person? I don't know, maybe I just got groomy vibes, and it's all just my personal headcanon. But I can at least use Naoko as an example of someone that Gendo uses while blatantly not caring about them, right? And, again, why include this part of the story with the Akagis if there wasn't something to it? Why do they both end up driven to murder-suicide over him? Bitches be crazy?

Your timeline is all mixed up. Naoko committed suicide in 2010, by which time Ritsuko had already graduated college and was working at Nerv, being about 25 at that point. I don't think we see Gendou and her interacting at all in episode 21.
As for him using Naoko, Naoko was clearly the one who initiated the relationship with him, and kept going it going despite his lack of enthusiasm. The using was hardly a one-way street.

Not really relevant here, but it comes to mind- I've always felt the silent line Gendou said to Ritsuko which made her cry "you liar!" was "Dr. Ritsuko Akagi, I truly admired/respected you". Seems like the sort of tastelessly absurd thing that could provoke such a reaction (and also be true).

...Did he have to? NERV catches up with him almost immediately, that whole thing kind of just resolves itself.

I'm talking about after they caught him. Shinji just says he won't pilot (after Misato botches another conversation with him) and we see Gendou just taking this without an ounce of interest when Ritsuko tells him and saying Rei will pilot Shogouki.
Shinji had his Nerv personnel card revoked and was about to step on the train out. He just decided not to last-second.
Gendou did absolutely nothing to even try to dissuade Shinji from leaving.

So why did he demand he come in the first place? Obviously Gendo "runs away" from Shinji but that's a metaphor for emotional distance, not physical.

Because Rei had suddenly been severely injured the previous day or so and was not in any good state to pilot, and the Angels were due to start attacking any day now. Gendou hastily called for the second option.
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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Zusuchan » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:35 am

I agree with baldur that Rei did achieve the capability to transcend time herself and that she became distant from plenty that she didn't necessarily want to be distant from; but I agree with Lavinius that Rei didn't lose her humanity and pretty much only became the full extent of what she always actually had been by getting into contact with her divine nature more overtly again. There's a bit of murkiness there in regards to her new experiences and Kaworu's role in the whole situation, but I agree that she became what she always was and she seemed to at least consider that fine, if not outright welcoming it. Her emotional distance from others and coldness is in my view also due to her upbringing, but I consider Lav's view understandable, applicable and thematically fitting too.

On the whole "Gendo grooming Ritsuko" matter, I think it's far more likely that it was Ritsuko who initiated the romantic relationship between the two, in much the same way Naoko did. Considering Gendo's problems with being genuinely close to really anyone besides from Yui, I find it hard to think he manipulated Ritsuko into having sex with him, especially when his liaison with her mother was very much not started by him and with Ritsuko probably having some sort of an Electra complex. As for the "Ritsuko got raped" theory, then I don't think Gendo knew she would get raped-he just didn't want Seele anywhere near Rei.

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Postby Slowpokeking » Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:29 am

I think the 3 Rei are very different to me.

Rei 1 was sharp and open, not afraid to show her feeling and words, which makes her a funny girl. She died as a tool of Gendo.
Rei 2 was the most developed, she was subtle and knew little of emotion. But through the love and work with Shinji/others, she found her meaning as a human being, got rid of Gendo her creator and die for the one she loved, making her own choice. She was changing from a tool to a human being, acted as a girl of same age of Shinji.
Rei 3 was strong and powerful, she turned from human to god, but at the same time still kept her love and let Shinji make the choice. She acted as a goddess and mother to Shinji.

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Postby Lavinius » Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:44 am

View Original PostSlowpokeking wrote:I think the 3 Rei are very different to me.

Rei 1 was sharp and open, not afraid to show her feeling and words, which makes her a funny girl. She died as a tool of Gendo.
Rei 2 was the most developed, she was subtle and knew little of emotion. But through the love and work with Shinji/others, she found her meaning as a human being, got rid of Gendo her creator and die for the one she loved, making her own choice. She was changing from a tool to a human being, acted as a girl of same age of Shinji.
Rei 3 was strong and powerful, she turned from human to god, but at the same time still kept her love and let Shinji make the choice. She acted as a goddess and mother to Shinji.

Even though she was obviously thinking of Shinji's safety as well, when she was about to die it was still Gendou's smile that Rei II thought of. And I don't think that Gendou planted Rei I and intended her to say those things to Naoko, banking on Naoko killing Rei and then herself. He simply couldn't have predicted it would turn out that way. Rei I just said the wrong thing to the wrong person at the wrong time.

I agree that the three incarnations of Rei have great differences in personality, but I tend to think of these as the same person developing over time- it's just that these developments are affected, and made more abrupt, by the process of dying & being reborn.

But this is otherwise a good summary of the Reioth.
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Postby Slowpokeking » Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:50 am

View Original PostLavinius wrote:Even though she was obviously thinking of Shinji's safety as well, when she was about to die it was still Gendou's smile that Rei II thought of. And I don't think that Gendou planted Rei I and intended her to say those things to Naoko, banking on Naoko killing Rei and then herself. He simply couldn't have predicted it would turn out that way. Rei I just said the wrong thing to the wrong person at the wrong time.

I agree that the three incarnations of Rei have great differences in personality, but I tend to think of these as the same person developing over time- it's just that these developments are affected, and made more abrupt, by the process of dying & being reborn.

But this is otherwise a good summary of the Reioth.

i think the last scene of Rei 2 was to tell that even though she still thanked Gendo, she now chose Shinji over him and die by making her own choice.
As for Rei 1, it was not clear whether Gendo used her or not, but my point is that her personality was not really independent as a human being yet. It would be funny to think that if she didn't die there, the grown up Rei 1 would be a shaprer girl than Rei 2. We might even see her have some debate against Asuka.

Rei 2 was my 2nd favorite character of the show and I really wish that she could survive. Because she was able to show how powerful love can be, to shape a girl with little/no emotion to a strong noble heroine.

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Postby Lavinius » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:07 pm

View Original PostSlowpokeking wrote:i think the last scene of Rei 2 was to tell that even though she still thanked Gendo, she now chose Shinji over him and die by making her own choice.

I don't think that Gendou would want Rei II to let Armisael start an Angelic Third Impact.
Armisael basically says "join with me and you'll be able to be one with Shinji", and Rei has to make the decision to not pursue her desire towards Shinji and sacrifice herself so that Armisael can't start Third Impact (which, of course, would kill Shinji).
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Postby Slowpokeking » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:12 pm

View Original PostLavinius wrote:I don't think that Gendou would want Rei II to let Armisael start an Angelic Third Impact.
Armisael basically says "join with me and you'll be able to be one with Shinji", and Rei has to make the decision to not pursue her desire towards Shinji and sacrifice herself so that Armisael can't start Third Impact (which, of course, would kill Shinji).

It's not how Gendo thinks, I'm talking about the development in Rei 2's heart.
At that moment she felt that Shiji was the most important thing to her, more than Gendo is. Thus she truly turned into a human being, to make her own choice than follow her creator. It was a very beautiful moment.

I think this also caused Rei 3 to crush Gendo's glasses and truly commit to Shinji.

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Postby baldur » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:22 pm

View Original PostLavinius wrote:And so I see Rei's final appearance in the final scene as just showing, that yes, Rei's still around in some form or another and is still quietly watching over her Shinji.
[...]
She's (re)acquired divinity, but that doesn't mean she's lost her humanity, unless you mean it in only the most vulgar sense.

Look, I agree with this in some sense, clearly Rei retains some of her past attachments as indicated by her final appearances (and her showing up throughout the series timeline if you subscribe to Quantum Rei), but I still believe that she's essentially been cordoned off from the human experience. If you want an idea of what I'm talking about, there's a reason I keep bringing up Dr. Manhattan. I personally just really don't see NGE as the sort of story that supports the idea of being buddies with an all powerful god person and everything working out fine and dandy. I think the tone being set with her final appearance is much more akin to Shinji being "haunted" by Rei. You don't come back from divinity. That's what I mean when I say Rei isn't human anymore. Think about the implications of becoming an immortal all-powerful deity. Mortal life would become insignificant. The only person Rei seems attached to in any sense by the end of the story is Shinji. What happens when he eventually dies? His entire lifespan would probably be akin to a microsecond in the grander scale for an immortal deity. Rei will, to borrow from the show itself, "stop existing in the minds of others". From there, she'll lose her own sense of self. From there, she (Rei Ayanami, the person) will "cease to exist". I realize we're well into headcanon territory by now, but I don't see where else the story we're left with could lead. Again, I think Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen is a useful frame of reference here.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:Keep in mind also that by the end Yui has become the same sort of being "with both fruits, equal to a god" that Lilith has, and yet Fuyu (who narrates proceedings) never mentions anything about her transcending time in connection to this, and her own explanation of her plans seems to assume that even as a god she'll still be experiencing fully linear time.

Well, their divinities seem different anyway - my impression was never that Yui had "transcended" in the same way Rei had - so I don't think this proves much for me. We never see Yui do half the things Rei's able to in the first place. But, hell, since you're bringing this up, I might as well mention that Yui makes it clear that her existence will be extraordinarily lonely - which I assume will be the case for Rei as well.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:Your timeline is all mixed up. Naoko committed suicide in 2010, by which time Ritsuko had already graduated college and was working at Nerv, being about 25 at that point. I don't think we see Gendou and her interacting at all in episode 21.

Ah, that's right. She wasn't part of NERV at that point. That's my bad. I did remember that they're not shown interacting during the flashbacks, which is why I mentioned that this might just be headcanon stuff for me. Didn't realize I was so off with the dates, though. I might just be misremembering, but are there no hints of Ritsu and Gendo being romantically involved when she was still that young? I really need to do another rewatch of NGE soon.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:As for him using Naoko, Naoko was clearly the one who initiated the relationship with him, and kept going it going despite his lack of enthusiasm. The using was hardly a one-way street.

Mm. I certainly agree it's likely Naoko initiated the relationship. Still - keeping that relationship going for many years, talking shit about her behind her back, neglecting her, etc - I don't think that's really on her, even if leaving a toxic relationship is the obvious rational choice. It just struck me as yet more proof that Gendo doesn't care about other people and has no qualms about using them for whatever suits him (in this case, sexual fulfillment - again, even if it wasn't initiated by him). That he does this exact same thing with her daughter right afterwards further suggests that this is a pattern with him.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:Not really relevant here, but it comes to mind- I've always felt the silent line Gendou said to Ritsuko which made her cry "you liar!" was "Dr. Ritsuko Akagi, I truly admired/respected you". Seems like the sort of tastelessly absurd thing that could provoke such a reaction (and also be true).

lol, not a bad guess at all, actually.

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Lavinius » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:23 pm

View Original Postbaldur wrote:*Rei stuff*

I think we're mostly in agreement at this point- it's just that I prefer to imagine her happy.
In my defense, it's not like existing on geological time scales is new to her- and, better yet, now she has Kaworu to keep her company.

Ah, that's right. She wasn't part of NERV at that point. That's my bad. I did remember that they're not shown interacting during the flashbacks, which is why I mentioned that this might just be headcanon stuff for me. Didn't realize I was so off with the dates, though. I might just be misremembering, but are there no hints of Ritsu and Gendo being romantically involved when she was still that young? I really need to do another rewatch of NGE soon.

Absolutely nothing.
Ritsuko might have had a crush on Gendou when she was younger, but even this isn't clearly suggested, and there's absolutely no evidence that she, let alone he, acted on it while he had his wife still around, and later Naoko.

It's worth noting, if you don't know, that Gendou & Ritsuko and their relationship is pretty blatantly a darker twist on Nemo & Electra (Electra as in... Electra complex) from Anno's previous show Nadia, down to the Terminal Dogma gunpoint scene being a redo of a similar scene in Nadia episode 22.
If you haven't, I strongly recommend watching it- the extent to which Eva and Nadia have continuity and relate to each other is insane. Adam literally shows up directly in Nadia. Indeed, Eva was originally going to be an official sequel to Nadia, and only wasn't because the network held the rights to Nadia.
(Mandatory caveat- Nadia is excellent, but Gainax was forced to add a bunch of low-quality comic filler episodes since the network wanted more than had been planned. If you want to avoid these, just watch episodes 1-22, 31, & 35-39.)

Mm. I certainly agree it's likely Naoko initiated the relationship. Still - keeping that relationship going for many years, talking shit about her behind her back, neglecting her, etc - I don't think that's really on her, even if leaving a toxic relationship is the obvious rational choice. It just struck me as yet more proof that Gendo doesn't care about other people and has no qualms about using them for whatever suits him (in this case, sexual fulfillment - again, even if it wasn't initiated by him). That he does this exact same thing with her daughter right afterwards further suggests that this is a pattern with him.

Except Gendou clearly wasn't getting any sexual fulfilment out of Naoko- you can see him utterly not into it as they kiss (and I'm more inclined to think this was because he had no interest in anyone but Yui rather than because Naoko's old & busted, since imo she was still pretty hot). He let her use him for sexual fulfilment (and she herself admitted that she knew that he wasn't exactly into it) in exchange for her loyalty and scientific skills.

It's possible that he was more active towards Ritsuko- he certainly seems to have had a higher regard for her.

I've seen it said that Gendou essentially prostituted himself to the Akagi women for scientific favors, and while this is clearly an exaggeration, I think it makes a fair point.

Just so you know, I'm probably pretty close to being done with this burst of forum activity, so don't be surprised if I fall off.

View Original PostSlowpokeking wrote:It's not how Gendo thinks, I'm talking about the development in Rei 2's heart.
At that moment she felt that Shiji was the most important thing to her, more than Gendo is. Thus she truly turned into a human being, to make her own choice than follow her creator. It was a very beautiful moment.

I think this also caused Rei 3 to crush Gendo's glasses and truly commit to Shinji.

I think that, although Shinji is certainly important to Rei, she does these things for reasons more than just loving Shinji.
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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby baldur » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:20 pm

View Original PostLavinius wrote:It's worth noting, if you don't know, that Gendou & Ritsuko and their relationship is pretty blatantly a darker twist on Nemo & Electra (Electra as in... Electra complex) from Anno's previous show Nadia, down to the Terminal Dogma gunpoint scene being a redo of a similar scene in Nadia episode 22.
If you haven't, I strongly recommend watching it- the extent to which Eva and Nadia have continuity and relate to each other is insane. Adam literally shows up directly in Nadia. Indeed, Eva was originally going to be an official sequel to Nadia, and only wasn't because the network held the rights to Nadia.
(Mandatory caveat- Nadia is excellent, but Gainax was forced to add a bunch of low-quality comic filler episodes since the network wanted more than had been planned. If you want to avoid these, just watch episodes 1-22, 31, & 35-39.)

I have only watched a few episodes of Nadia, so there might indeed be an element of their relationship that I'm missing. It's admittedly been hard for me to muster the motivation to keep watching, because I don't find Nadia quite as engaging as Anno's other stuff so far (and I already have a fucked up attention span on top of that), but I do plan on eventually finishing it.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:Just so you know, I'm probably pretty close to being done with this burst of forum activity, so don't be surprised if I fall off.

That's understandable. Our conversation has reached a nice spot, not much more that can be said, no harm in leaving it off here.


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