Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Slowpokeking » Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:32 am

I think she was drown in anger and shock after she realized that Gendo was using her, and she saw Rei as the young clone of Yui. Her anger was mostly on Yui and Gendo, took Rei as a tool instead of a little girl. Only after Rei died, she realized that she had killed a child, I think she did show some remorse and fear based on the scene, which is why she committed suicide later.

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Line » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:47 am

I think it's a complexe scene where are lot of things are happening in character head/psyche. As much in Naoko side, than Rei I side. I think it's also said a lot about men's interaction with what he don't understand when he interact with someone, or something "alien", unknow to him.

Wheter be it in other, in himself, in a thing, than...Something "divin" or a entity that's see trough you and can decipher any kind of secrets you hide, no matter how much you think you hidden it well.

It's just my personal interpretation, but I think Naoko was scared of Rei I, not only of her weirdness mentioned above, but also because she looked like Yui
SPOILER: Show
She is a clone of her, beside being Lilith, after all.
Yui Ikari, which is someone so "perfect" or "pure", without common defaults that's you find among the others humans you are with: She always smiling, she always seem to succeed everything she touch, she always seem to understand you, no matter how much you are dark on the inside, with this, too perfect smile of her, almost as if to her, your AT Field don't exist almost as if it was as easy than putting away something out of her hair, that's you put in there yourself and can retrieve with ease and no pain.

This kind of behavior can either spark up two reaction : This scare you off, you didn't want someone peeking in at all, so you run away, or either become agressive to the subject who dared to walk with so much nerve, so much carelessness into your personal closen garden that's is your psyche, you.

Or number two, you like to open your insides at any people and for them to figure out your inner working, instead of doing it yourself.

Naoko did simply have the first reaction mentioned above, among others inner mechanisms that's happened to her psyche..

So now, if Naoko did kill herself because she regretted it, or was scared of Rei I livid, dead corpse, was scared of her even more, truly is an enigma..

Sorry if that's do not answer the question the way you wanted, but I couldn't help myself :)
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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Kendrix » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:39 am

I want to be very, very careful when ruling that violence towards someone was 'less bad' because the person was 'weird' or the perpetrator (the perpetrator!) 'was just scared'. Especially when the victim in this case was a literal toddler.

I mean whenever you see the cast talking about Rei they don't talk about abstract conceptual stuff like what if scenarious for aliens, but they talk how she's unhappy, neglected, isolated, feeling she's trapped and expendable, emotionally damaged...

Ritsuko & Asuka tell themselves that she's "just a thing" or "just an unfeeling robot" they are exactly the same as real life bullies, wicked stepmothers, uncaring institutions etc. I see nothing in the thought process that requires special alien-ness to justify or explain it. (but I can think of many examples from real life where people were described as inhuman to justify their neglect or mistreatment)
Ppl report a random disabled person for 'acting creepy' and then the police comes & shoots them, or, someone was hitting on a person & then learns they are trans & snaps and murders them claiming their were "panicked" or "creeped out" etc that happens all the time and it leads to cruelty towards the most helpless ppl in society, so I'm very very motivated to err on the side of caution here.

Rei is evidently capable of pain, sorrow, reflection, compassion etc. in all ways that matter; She's also in a position where everyone at NERV can basically do to her whatever they want.
Naoko having a certain perception doesn't at all imply that she was right. It just means the show is getting creative about showing us her thought process by visual means.

And little kids are horrible gremlins all the time. If acting like a bratty kid & looking like Yui are the requirements to be murdered, it could just as easily have been Shinji who walked in there & had his windpipe bashed in and I 100% believe that if you swapped him for Rei Naoko's actions would have been 100% the same.

That said I do believe she did regret it (or rather, felt immediate self-disgust) - why else would she jump, really?
It was a total sudden act of passion, she had absolutely no plan, no way to explain it - I do believe she was genuinely horrified. That shot of Rei's dangling hands really emphasizes how small & delicate they are & how she's just a kid, all the weird stobesy effects from earlier which represented Neoko's pOv7Rage/perception are gone - Naoko had a daughter of her own, I bet she's thinking how Ritsuko's hands didn't use to look that different when she was a baby, there's the immediate cut to the very changed look in her eyes...
If she was supposed to be scared you'd have seen escalating panic, but instead her expression goes from anger to 'what have I done' with the shots identical apart from her expression, set up as a deliberate before/after contrast


As for Yui, you're seeing her through the perspective of two guys who had the hots for her and the spotty, simplistic memories of someone who was 3 when she dies. That's more indicative of her than them. The main difference between her and Gendo is that she has social skills, but she's the exact same kind of uber-ultilitarian long term shemer.
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Line » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:44 am

Wow wow Kendrix, calm down. I tried to explain in universe explanation (to me) why she did that's, and this, is only my interpretation. Not the truth. Alltough I'm sorry, if I seemed like some kind of all knowing pretentious bitch with my explanation.

I tried to explain why she did murder Rei, but do that's mean that's it's justify the murder of Rei I? Of all the others Rei? Of how they use her like a fucking tool trough the serie? Certainly fucking not. Naoko should have listened to her instead of being freaked out.

I'm only pointing out the metaphysical spiritual meaning of the scene while Evangelion is full off. Tough I know very well that's you are not really friendly friendly with those kind of interpretations, and how to approach the world like this, that's you seem to utterly hate it. But still, it seem the most logical explanation to me. It can explain her behavior what'soever, but do it justify it? No. Certainly not.

And I did said that's a lot of things happened in character heads in this scene. So I think that's somehow, yes, Naoko feel remorse, and that's she not that's of a evil bitch that's the fanbase seem to loove of painting of her.

But nonetheless, I know it's dismissive of me, and it's kinda is, but I think you too are making good points.

I'm sorry to have triggered you, those where not my intentions at all, I just wanted to give a pist of reflexion to the user asking a question, even tough I might have sounded really preachy, as usual -o-;

Let's agree to disagree, ok?
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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Kendrix » Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:38 am

You postulate a lot of motivations & emotions there that aren't there.

You said your opinion ("the strobes lightsy stuff represents Reis otherness, she was possibly scared the whole time, because of XYZ"), I put mine beneath it ("the strobe lights stuff represents Naoko's thought process, she was agry at first &disgusted afterward, because of UVW") & suddenly you're pulling an Ad Hominem out of nowhere and acting like I was clamoring for you to be burned at the stake or something.
'm honestly confused.

Also you say "point out" like the "metaphysical spiritual meaning" is an obvious thing that everyone can see unless they're dumb & that there is only one possible interpretation thereof, but unless there's some staff interview about that scene that I'm unaware of my guess is as good as yours as long as it's congruent with the material in the scene & everything else in the show.

You're not the only one who's ever been to English class you know?
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Line » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:24 am

I didn't go to english class. I'm a french girl and I learned english with google translation.
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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Slowpokeking » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:25 am

Naoko was obviously wrong to kill first Rei, I'm just saying that she did pick her sense after she committed it and felt remorse.

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby baldur » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:04 pm

Kendrix wrote:Ritsuko & Asuka tell themselves that she's "just a thing" or "just an unfeeling robot" they are exactly the same as real life bullies, wicked stepmothers, uncaring institutions etc. I see nothing in the thought process that requires special alien-ness to justify or explain it. (but I can think of many examples from real life where people were described as inhuman to justify their neglect or mistreatment)
Ppl report a random disabled person for 'acting creepy' and then the police comes & shoots them, or, someone was hitting on a person & then learns they are trans & snaps and murders them claiming their were "panicked" or "creeped out" etc that happens all the time and it leads to cruelty towards the most helpless ppl in society, so I'm very very motivated to err on the side of caution here.

Rei is evidently capable of pain, sorrow, reflection, compassion etc. in all ways that matter; She's also in a position where everyone at NERV can basically do to her whatever they want.

I don't have much to add, but felt compelled to express how much I agree with everything you're saying here.

I think Rei's story is probably the most tragic in Evangelion, though I'm not entirely sure how common that sentiment is.

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Slowpokeking » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:01 am

View Original Postbaldur wrote:I don't have much to add, but felt compelled to express how much I agree with everything you're saying here.

I think Rei's story is probably the most tragic in Evangelion, though I'm not entirely sure how common that sentiment is.

She was able to break free, from a tool to truly become a human being and make her own decision, yes she didn't get her good ending but it still showed the beauty of humanity.

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby baldur » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:26 pm

View Original PostSlowpokeking wrote:She was able to break free, from a tool to truly become a human being and make her own decision, yes she didn't get her good ending but it still showed the beauty of humanity.

I'm not so sure I agree with you there. Rei abandons her humanity to become a deity untethered to space and time, and as far as I'm aware, mainly to help Shinji (not to free herself or anything). Maybe her first true decision, but also her last. The person that was "Rei Ayanami" ceases to exist.

It just seems like a very poignant ending for a character that struggled so long with her own humanity and relating to others.

:(  SPOILER: Show
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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:50 pm

Her options were limited, she was falling apart at this point, & she also had her own reasons for returning. Some hope of finding a place she belonged ("I'm home") or at least for the suffering to be over. ("He won't let me return to nothing")

It's worth noting that Lillith takes her form instead of her just disappearing. The Lillith that existed before Gendo put her soul in a human vessel is also irrevocably gone.

When they have no hope and nothing left to lose, people generally fall into a handful of reactions. We see all of those & all their combinations with the various characters during EoE. - some become destructive à la "If I am to burn, let there be fire" & give a last fuck you to their enemies that they held back (Shinji, Asuka, Ritsuko), some curl up and seek some comfort with their favorite place/people/song(Hyuuga, Maya, Misato - her last words at least), some panic and frantically try to escape to the end to the end (Aoba, Maya to an extent), and others decide that if there's no more hope for them they can at least help others, or look to do one last meaningful act. (Rei, Misato - the speech to Shinji)
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Lavinius » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:06 pm

View Original Postbaldur wrote:I'm not so sure I agree with you there. Rei abandons her humanity to become a deity untethered to space and time, and as far as I'm aware, mainly to help Shinji (not to free herself or anything). Maybe her first true decision, but also her last. The person that was "Rei Ayanami" ceases to exist.

I'm decidedly bewildered how one can watch Lilith immediately change from a bizarre, alien blob into a perfect image of Rei Ayanami, who retains Rei Ayanami's personal relationships and affections even more than the previous instance of Rei Ayanami did, and think that Rei Ayanami has somehow ceased to exist. It'd make more sense to say that Lilith has ceased to exist, sacrificed to Rei! But of course, that's also incorrect, because there's no separation between Lilith & Rei- Rei is merely the name & form that Lilith had for a time.

I think that my analysis of Rei's arc and character differs fairly strongly from the norm, so I'll take this chance to exposit it (probably in a rather disorderly fashion).

The circumstances regarding Rei's creation- which entails the main Lilith entity's functional death- are frustratingly vague. Either somehow Gehirn forced her to disensoul herself and become Rei (though how you could go about threatening an Eva-level entity with neither an Eva or the Lance of Longinus is beyond me), or that she chose to do so for her own ends. Since Yui remained in Shogouki by choice, and Shogouki was still joined to Lilith at the time of the experiment, my suspicion is that Lilith and Yui made a deal whereby Lilith would reside in a clone of Yui, and Yui in a clone of Lilith, for their mutual benefits.
That said, it's unclear whether or not Gendou and Fuyu understand that Lilith willfully incarnated as Rei. This is important.

Now, I have to say that Rei's isolation, coldness, &c. is not caused by any manipulation or abuse on Gendou's part (although Gendou's coldness certainly doesn't help, neither is he somehow malicious in his coldness.)
There's no reason to think that Gendou's care and affection for Rei isn't genuine. He trusts her enormously, both personally- not to run away from him UNLIKE HIS OTHER CHILD- and professionally- trusting her not to divulge all the occult science secrets and conspiracies she's privy to- and he cares about her safety to an extent that makes Fuyutsuki (usually the voice of compassion to Gendou's ruthlessness) worry. And, likewise, Rei trusts Gendou.
Moreover, Gendou does absolutely nothing to keep Rei from being a normal girl. He lets her attend school (even though it should be useless), he lets her socialize freely. Never once does Gendou scold or threaten Rei. The single time he's vaguely upset at her, in episode 19, it's because he's afraid for her safety when she tries a kamikaze run on Zeruel.
Nay, if Gendou has any desire for Rei's humanity, his desires are for Rei to be a normal girl, or at least to be allowed to have as much of a normal life as she wants given the circumstances. Which she really doesn't. Not because she's his puppet, but because she makes the deliberate decision not to.

The two actual causes for her self-isolation and coldness are:
1) The trauma caused by Naoko murdering her. This is straightforward. Rei once said something innocently, and paid dearly for it. So of course she's going to be reticent, and I want to hug her so much.
2) The anxiety caused by her own mortality. This one's a little more complicated.
Rei is completely aware that she is going to need to exit this form of existence, and that it's going to come soon. And she's far, far from clear on what is entailed by what comes after.
So, naturally, she dreads it, and she wants to make it as painless as possible.
The things that would cause her pain are the things that it'd hurt to lose. Most of all, emotional connections (with Shinji especially), the possibility of being a mother, her discrete identity as Rei Ayanami.
As such, she wants to keep herself from emotional connection.
But these things therefore become temptations for her. It hurts to have to cut herself off from the things she desires.
So she wants this game of keeping herself from becoming attached so that she doesn't hurt herself to end. So she desires to die, so that the suffering caused by the fact that she is going to die will end.
But at the end of the day, she still doesn't want to die at all. But there's also the desire to die and to become what she really is.

Her coldness is a deliberate choice, and one that she can't always maintain. She frequently gets flustered by Shinji, when he brings forth feelings of warmth she doesn't want to have lest she become attached to them and be hurt by losing them.

It's worth adding that this sort of thinking (or something close to it), this obssession with one's own death and resulting detachment to life, though perhaps foreign and even "sick" to secular modern eyes, is positively encouraged and accepted as the height of wisdom in many spiritual traditions- Stoicism, Christian asceticism, (most importantly for a Japanese work) Buddhism. I don't doubt that this an aspect of Eva's broader attack on the Abrahamic-Buddhist-Western axis.

And, of course, at the back of her mind there's also the need to be restored to what she truly is, even though she can't comprehend what it is to be what she is. (And I very much doubt that Gendou understands what it is to be Lilith either.)

And that is why Rei rebels against Gendou. Because, even though Gendou lets her be a normal girl, even, perhaps, wants her to be, that isn't what Rei is, and she can never be truly happy while being denied knowledge of her true nature. And then Kaworu shows her what she truly is, and shows her the path forward. And this gives her the courage to move forward without (not really against) Gendou, even as he, a mere mortal, dares to try to guide her to do the same things that she will choose for herself.

The point is that Rei doesn't reject Gendou for treating her as a puppet as opposed to a free human being. He treats her with the most sympathy and love of anyone in his life (including himself!) except for Yui. The point is that she rejects him for keeping her as a human as opposed to a god. For Rei, becoming just a normal girl, giving into her temptations, is the bad ending. It's neither possible in her circumstances, nor will it give her her true happiness. The good ending for Rei is for her to embrace who she is.

And upon becoming a god? She's magnificent, and she manifestly doesn't lose her identity or her humanity, and indeed she gets pretty much everything she wanted. She gets the intimacy with Shinji she's longed for. She finds a match in Kaworu (I have a lot to say about that, another time). She is a mother, of all life. She knows herself, and can be at peace. And (as far as the anime is concerned, the manga is more grim) she still retains her identity as Rei Ayanami (along with, doubtless, billions of years of other aspects of her) even after Instrumentality and the body she used for it is well and dismantled.

The happiest life for Rei in the circumstances of her existence would be one in which she finds a balance and learns to let herself enjoy her time as a Lilin, opens up to deeper relationships with her friends, perhaps even reconciles Gendou and Shinji- and nevertheless eventually restores herself to her full divine glory. Sadly, she doesn't get the earlier part. But she still, absolutely, gets the happy ending.
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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Slowpokeking » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:39 pm

View Original Postbaldur wrote:I'm not so sure I agree with you there. Rei abandons her humanity to become a deity untethered to space and time, and as far as I'm aware, mainly to help Shinji (not to free herself or anything). Maybe her first true decision, but also her last. The person that was "Rei Ayanami" ceases to exist.

It just seems like a very poignant ending for a character that struggled so long with her own humanity and relating to others.

:(  SPOILER: Show
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I was talking about 2nd Rei.

3rd Rei still chose to disobey Gendo and let Shinji make the decision.

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:22 pm

View Original PostLavinius wrote:The point is that she rejects him for keeping her as a human as opposed to a god.[/i] For Rei, becoming just a normal girl, giving into her temptations, is the bad ending.



I 100% disagree with this. I don't think Rei and Lillith are fundamental "the same", even if Lillith is an ingredient to what Rei became.

Identity isn't just down to your genes or innate dispositions - it is also formed by your environment, your interactions with others, and your own choices & attitudes.
As far as nature goes, Rei is part Lillith, but also part human.
As far as nurture and choices goes she's entirely different.

This is something that's brought up in the show as well ("bonds" conversation, & how Rei herself views this as the main factor that makes her her.) - of course that doesn't mean that nature doesn't exist, as much as Rei has lowkey been afraid of & repressed that factor, (though to some degree the lines could also refer to her feelings, which she's also sort of out of touch with)

All in all the show seems to weigh the "own choices & beliefs" aspect the heaviest, if Shinji's later musings about identity ep 26 are any indication.

If she can think herself as different, even be afraid of being erased (not just herself, but more so in the minds of others), how is she not real? How is it

And even when she decides to go back to Lillith, it's for an assortment of 'human' reasons - help her friend, find a place she "belongs", escape suffering & bondage.

EVA 2 portrays Lillith and Rei as different in their scenario & her "best ending" is precisely to tell her "I am not you" & run off to try & find her own place where she belongs, even if her life expectancy will be limited.

Even if you argue that there's no telling what came from the 10 hour interview with Anno & what's just the game maker's own extrapolation, let's look at what the makers say about Rei:

"Whatever else, she needs to be painted in as a bitterly unhappy young girl with little sense of presence." - Anno

"Specially educated and trained the same as Asuka.
Lacks emotion and speaks few words. Nihilist without feelings.
Learned about emotions and feelings after falling in “love” with someone.
Important secret behind her birth is hidden (she has no parents)." - The Proposal

"Rei is someone who is aware of the fact that even if she dies, there'll be another to replace her, so she doesn't value her life very highly. Her presence, her existence, "ostensible existence," is ephemeral. She's a very sad girl. She only has the barest minimum of what she needs to have. She's damaged in some way; she hurts herself. She doesn't need friends." - Anno

"It began when the director told me, "It's not that she doesn't have emotion, but that she doesn't know what it is." His technical request was that I should read my lines as flat as possible. But she's obviously not a machine; she's a human being, flesh and blood. It's a huge difference between "not having emotion" and "not knowing emotion." After all, she could develop feelings, once she learned... [...] Let's go back at last to Rei. She doesn't know emotion, so there's no difference between what she says and feels; there's nothing ulterior about her. At first sight, then, you may theorize: that is where her very great beauty comes from, this surface, not without depth, but with the absence of its necessity—someone truly mystical.

No; Rei's beauty comes from the truth that she has feelings. When she cried, it meant the waters of the pool were coming out at last. The struggle to draw your feelings forth, the reconciliation between your surface and your depth—that, I believe, is where we truly become alive, truly become human beings. And when I found the warmth below the coldness in her words, I synchronized with Rei for the first time. " - Hayashibara

To begin with, it's not so clear than angels, Lillim and SoL are even that fundamentally different, the show frequently refers to them as "human" in its own broad definition of the term, emphasizing the similarity as the plot twist rather than lampshading the difference.

That her soul is Lillith's is of course suffienctly implied by the merger, but only explicitly spelled out in supplementary material (the rcb).

Whenever they talk about her character & why she is the way she is they always talk about her background, the feeling replaceable, used etc. even Yui doesn't come up though that's the one connection that IS stressed in the actual show.

They also characterise her as sad, resigned, pessimistic not like, indifferent or not understanding (this also holds true for the episode scripts)

This is just Americans running away with this one aspect or parsing her like similar "robot girl" characters in western media while ignoring all the other characterization that was actually deemed important enough to spelled out & shown on screen.

The sterile room she spent her childhood in, her present living conditions, receiving no parenting except some very sporadic, distant, insincere attention from Gendo that always has the caveat of his goals, having no freedom or hope for a future...

Look at Kaworu - he has similar origins (if anything, he's further from a human than Rei, since Lillith is a fruit of knowledge lifeform), and while he's not 100% a normal average or he is pretty expressive, has social skills, and very capable of enjoying himself.

If it was an inherent difference, you couldn't change it by learning.
Even a perfectly human person who is say, autistic, or has adhd or something couldn't "become" like a typical person, only mime it under great difficulty. (and still that inherent difference doesn't mean they can't live happily among ppl if given proper support)And that's just a normal human with slightly different sensory processing, not an "incomprehensible god alien"
But you know who can learn, if given new experiences? Someone inexperienced.
And who can heal if given friendship? Someone hurt, damaged and traumatized.
Rei changes quite a bit just from making one friend. If she had a normal upbringing with adopted parents who aren't Gendo, she would probably be even more different.


Loads of ppl think of Rei as a concept/plot device character but she's actually highly autobiographical, at least as much as Shinji.
From looking at interviews etc. you'll find out the following things about Anno
- lived off of EnergyIns & had little interest in proper food
- little interest in ppl or earthly passions, doesn't care much about his surroundings
- vegetarian because he's lowkey grossed out by living things
- prefers technological surroundings
- colleagues have described him as an 'Alien'
- once didn't notice something in his house catching on fire (remembering the soot stain in Rei's apartment?)
- doesn't seem to care that much about his own life, puts work first, you kind of want to take care of him (courtesy of Moyoco in the latest NHK documentary)

Doesn't help that EVA has very lifelke dialogue, strikingly realistic & faithful to "how people talk about the weird girl in class"

Look at the sequences in ep 26 where they have all the pilots say the same thing ("I have nothing else" / "Is it okay if I stay here?") that doesn't really suggests that her issues come from a fundamental otherness that doesn't have the same causes and solution as the others'.


If he was religious or wanted to explore fear of the unknown as a theme, or something about the hubris of humanity (that is a little bit in there with the evangelions and second impact), it would make sense for him to make the kind of character you're describing, but that's not what's done here.
Aliens in fiction are as likely to be a "what if" scenario as they are to be a standing for some social issue.
They still contain some statement or meaning.

In this case all that stuff is still a standing for feeling hopeless in life or like borderline suicidal. So I wouldn't say that suicide is the good ending and coming to have a normal life is the bad one.

Note also that EVA's cosmology, the ones who want to "follow gods plan" are SEELE, the baddest of the bad guys. "Defying god" sounds very much like a good thing in such a world. The very existence of humans is a cosmic accident - they are "Lillim", or demons.

Look at instrumentality - in another story, all ppl merging & ascending could be a good thing, if it represented the internet or understanding/enlightenment, but it's very clear within the framework of the show, instrumentality stands for regression and escapism and in any case, Shinji gave it a fair try and found it lacking.
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Lavinius » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:46 pm

I'm a little hesitant on how to respond since a lot of what you've said seems to be responding to things that I did not mean to say and hope I did not seem to say.

So I think I'll try to rephrase/explain the one statement you quoted. In particular, I was thinking of the battle with Armisael, where that literally is her choice: give in to her desire for Shinji's company and let Armisael win (bad end) or maintain herself and sacrifice herself (good end). But this sacrifice isn't the final sacrifice, and it brings no happiness to her.

But this dramatizes, or exaggerates Rei's inner conflict more generally. On the one hand, she wants, needs to fulfill her duty to all people, on the other she wants to not have to cruelly sacrifice herself, and to be able to choose the things she wants. But she doesn't want to be able to choose the things she wants, because if she can do that it will be more difficult and painful to sacrifice herself over & over again...

A middle ground could exist, but she's such a sad & lonely girl she'd have great trouble reaching it.

Asuka and Shinji are unnecessary, there could still be a happy ending where Asuka or Shinji stop piloting the Eva, which is what Asuka is so afraid of. But Rei is neccessary, she's completely indisposable; there's no victory over Seele (or, at least, no sure victory) if Rei does not keep piloting and sacrificing herself, which is why she's so afraid to make it more difficult on herself, which why she's in the state of longing for what might be death so she can stop having to deny herself... it's so sad.

So it's important to me that Rei does have a happy ending, that her final self-sacrifice was at last not a sacrifice at all, but a seizing of victory and power and self-knowledge, where she can be fully Rei Ayanami without needing to deny her desires as Rei Ayanami, and fully Lilith needing to deny her desires as Lilith. There's nothing sad, or at least very little sad, about her deification.

I really dislike it when well-meaning shippers try to reduce Rei to a victim that Shinji could save, or did save, from Gendou, rather than a full person making her own decisions towards Shinji, towards Gendou, towards herself... It's far more accurate to say that she saved Shinji.

As for the Lilith/Rei identity question, all I can say is that I don't see any reason to see them as not the same person. Obviously Lilith is changed by what she experiences in the Rei-bodies, and what Rei feels isn't false. But it's not her whole truth either. As it is, the Rei-bodies are prisons for Rei. They could become her home if she could choose to define them as such, but so long as they are her only option, so long as she is so nobly trapped in the awful cycle of self-sacrifice without knowing & having her freedom, they remain prisons of suffering & ignorance for her.
Independent of the circumstances of the Angels and Third Impact, I think that Rei could be happy living a normal life with the knowledge of her nature as Lilith, that is, so long as she is in Lilin form by her own choice rather than being lied to and imprisoned in it. Indeed, many of my daydreams over the years have assumed that she could. But that's something of an irrelevant hypothetical. The Rei we talk about is the one that exists in the circumstances Rei exists in, the one who makes choices within those circumstances.

I'll also say that for me Rei stands as a... not allegory since there's nothing figurative about it- a mythic exemplar of the human spirit facing death, facing God=Nature. It wouldn't be very wrong to say that whatever I say about Rei I kind of mean to say about myself also.

I hope that clarifies my position a bit. Rei is my favorite character and I empathize with her so dearly. Please, at least, don't think that I mean in any way to dehumanize her.
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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby baldur » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:33 am

View Original PostLavinius wrote:I'm decidedly bewildered how one can watch Lilith immediately change from a bizarre, alien blob into a perfect image of Rei Ayanami, who retains Rei Ayanami's personal relationships and affections even more than the previous instance of Rei Ayanami did, and think that Rei Ayanami has somehow ceased to exist. It'd make more sense to say that Lilith has ceased to exist, sacrificed to Rei! But of course, that's also incorrect, because there's no separation between Lilith & Rei- Rei is merely the name & form that Lilith had for a time.

Because Rei Ayanami is human, and I don't know how Rei Ayanami is going to maintain her human relationships when she's a time leaping quantum space goddess. She becomes Dr. Manhattan on crack. As I showcased in my post, and as you discuss later on in yours, this is an outcome that Rei was evidently afraid of. In Episode 25 she has a long introspective scene about how she's afraid of the "inhuman" (Lilith) part of her and how confronting it might mean she will cease to exist as a person and be erased from the hearts of others (because her human bonds will disappear). That, combined with her lonely, cold and detached appearances near the end of EoE, very much seem to paint the picture that the conclusion to her story is not a happy one. I don't quite understand your bewilderment, to be honest.

As for the rest of your post, I disagree with your analysis of Rei (and Gendo) on such a fundamental level that I don't think it's worth getting into.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:I really dislike it when well-meaning shippers try to reduce Rei to a victim that Shinji could save, or did save, from Gendou, rather than a full person making her own decisions towards Shinji, towards Gendou, towards herself... It's far more accurate to say that she saved Shinji.

I do agree with this, though.

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Slowpokeking » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:46 am

Still are 3 Reis the same individual? I always intend to put them as 3 ppl with share memory.

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby baldur » Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:01 pm

View Original PostSlowpokeking wrote:Still are 3 Reis the same individual? I always intend to put them as 3 ppl with share memory.

Yes, if it's not explicitly stated then it's heavily implied that they're the same person, memories and all, across different bodies. At least Rei II and Rei III are.

It doesn't really seem like the same applies for Rei Q in Rebuild, though, judging purely by 3.0.

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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby Lavinius » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:38 pm

View Original Postbaldur wrote:Because Rei Ayanami is human, and I don't know how Rei Ayanami is going to maintain her human relationships when she's a time leaping quantum space goddess. She becomes Dr. Manhattan on crack. As I showcased in my post, and as you discuss later on in yours, this is an outcome that Rei was evidently afraid of. In Episode 25 she has a long introspective scene about how she's afraid of the "inhuman" (Lilith) part of her and how confronting it might mean she will cease to exist as a person and be erased from the hearts of others (because her human bonds will disappear). That, combined with her lonely, cold and detached appearances near the end of EoE, very much seem to paint the picture that the conclusion to her story is not a happy one. I don't quite understand your bewilderment, to be honest.

First I must nitpick that, as I've said countless times, the notion that post-deification Lilith transcends time is entirely unfounded. If there were any such mechanic at play, I'd expect some indication of it to show up somewhere- one of the Angels to have weird time powers like Leliel had weird space powers, or for Fuyutsuki or Seele to say ominously that something or another has now transcended time. Any instances of Rei appearing spookily prior to her rejoining the Lilith-body can be explained simply by the larger Lilith entity not being completely inert (as we can see is the case in other ways, by Lilith moving and regrowing parts of her body or by her welcoming Rei back to her body).

As for the remainder of your points, Rei's discourse in 25 correspond to her thoughts before rejoining with Lilith, not her experience after. As far how she feels after, our best evidence is her scenes in 26' talking to Shinji as Instrumentality ends, and there I don't detect any particular sorrow or inhumanity- indeed, she seems perhaps the warmest there that she's even been. And of course, the notion that her identity has been lost is refuted by how she's throwing around her self-image as Rei Ayanami more than a hundred videos complaining about Eva merchandise.

Simply put, what Rei feared restoration as Lilith would be just wasn't what it turned out to be.

As for the rest of your post, I disagree with your analysis of Rei (and Gendo) on such a fundamental level that I don't think it's worth getting into.

All I can say is that my analysis simply takes their interactions as shown (and as other characters, particularly Fuyutsuki, observe them) and treats them as such, without imposing the meme of Gendou as a near-omnipotent evil mastermind.
If Gendou were some sort of master interpersonal manipulator I think he'd be able to apply those skills in his other relationships than Rei, and at least make an effort to keep Shinji willing to pilot and Ritsuko from trying to murder him.
(If I'm responding to nothing even vaguely like you actually think, I apologize.)

View Original PostSlowpokeking wrote:Still are 3 Reis the same individual? I always intend to put them as 3 ppl with share memory.

The standard analysis is that Lilith incarnated into Rei I (perhaps leaving a little in her old body). Rei I died and part of her went into Rei II and a lesser part into Eva-00, and then Rei III contains both parts again, and then Rei III returns to being Lilith. So yes, the same essential person, though living out different lives.

Something absolutely is lost in the progress from Rei II to Rei III, and presumably from Rei I to Rei II; the way I'd put it into words is that the previous life is remembered like a poorly-remembered dream but retains its effect on the deeper unconcious. There is memory loss, though how much is unclear- does Rei III say that she's never seen Gendou's glasses before because she actual doesn't remember them, or because she finds it odd that she does remember despite never having seen them in this life?
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Re: Did Naoko show remorse after killing 1st Rei?

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Postby baldur » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:01 pm

View Original PostLavinius wrote:First I must nitpick that, as I've said countless times, the notion that post-deification Lilith transcends time is entirely unfounded. If there were any such mechanic at play, I'd expect some indication of it to show up somewhere

Really? (though I'd imagine you're already aware of this)

View Original PostLavinius wrote: Any instances of Rei appearing spookily prior to her rejoining the Lilith-body can be explained simply by the larger Lilith entity not being completely inert (as we can see is the case in other ways, by Lilith moving and regrowing parts of her body or by her welcoming Rei back to her body).

Sorry, what? How exactly does "Lilith moves parts of her body around" correlate to "Lilith sends visions of Ghost Rei to people"? And why would Lilith be sending visions to Shinji before he meets Rei, pilots an Eva, or even sees an Angel? How does Lilith reap the souls of those who died before Third Impact, like Misato and Ritsuko, if she has no ability to bend time? Moreover, why do you even have a problem with this hypothesis in the first place?

View Original PostLavinius wrote:As for the remainder of your points, Rei's discourse in 25 correspond to her thoughts before rejoining with Lilith, not her experience after.
[...]
Simply put, what Rei feared restoration as Lilith would be just wasn't what it turned out to be.

Why include those scenes, then? What, Rei was scared of becoming a deity, but turns out becoming a deity was actually cool and good? There is zero indication of the latter; the only shots of Rei we get post-Instrumentality are ominous and do not portray her as happy - quite the opposite.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:As far how she feels after, our best evidence is her scenes in 26' talking to Shinji as Instrumentality ends, and there I don't detect any particular sorrow or inhumanity- indeed, she seems perhaps the warmest there that she's even been.

Concurrency is not confirmed, and even if it was, 26' still takes place entirely during Instrumentality, not after it.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:(If I'm responding to nothing even vaguely like you actually think, I apologize.)

Don't worry, it's close enough to what I think.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:All I can say is that my analysis simply takes their interactions as shown (and as other characters, particularly Fuyutsuki, observe them) and treats them as such, without imposing the meme of Gendou as a near-omnipotent evil mastermind.

The meme doesn't come from nowhere. Gendo isn't omnipotent; but he is misanthropic, and he is selfish, and he does treat other people like less than dirt. I think "evil" is a fair characterization.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:If Gendou were some sort of master interpersonal manipulator I think he'd be able to apply those skills in his other relationships than Rei

He can and does. Also, sounds like you concede to him manipulating Rei.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:and at least make an effort to keep Shinji willing to pilot

He does. "Running away again?"

He manipulates Shinji plenty. His ultimatum ("Pilot or leave!"), as well as bringing out Rei in bandages, is one example of this. Same with how he makes sure to praise him very sparingly. Shinji only pilots because he wants his father to notice him. Gendo is aware of this and actively fosters this dependency.

Gendo doesn't have to be incredible with people to be manipulative. He's in a position of tremendous power over anyone he chooses to manipulate, whether that's his son, his foster daughter or the woman he's been grooming since, like, 17 (before he casts her aside to be raped, of course).

It feels very strange indeed having to explain how Gendo is manipulative, because it's just such an obvious part of who he is as a character - it's like making the case for Shinji being passive or Asuka being abrasive. It's just self-apparent.


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