[EoE]How did Seele expect to do anything without the spear? Why Unit-01? How was Gendo betrayed by Rei?

[Ozymansiaz1260]

A couple of questions about EoE. Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I haven't seen these questions answered anywhere.

The spear is what lets you control the Impact beyond just killing everyone, right? So what did Seele think they'd be able to do without it? And they specifically say that the missing spear is why they have to use Unit-01 instead of Lilith. Why? What were they going to do with her that would be different that they couldn't do with Lilith? Using Lilith makes sense, because she's the original and there's nobody in the drivers seat to say no. Is it that the replica spears would only work with a replica Lilith? I hope that's not the answer. I know the MPEs were doing some of the work that Lilith would have done, like the global Anti-AT field. Were they somehow going to do the spears job, also?

And Gendo acts betrayed by Rei when she takes Adam, but why? Wasn't he giving it to her? It seems like he got literally everything that he wanted. He got some kind of redemption by saying he was just afraid, but he really did love Shinji (which he absolutely did not, BTW. He wasn't smiling when Toji almost died because he was afraid). He got his punishment by being eaten, and it's my interpretation that his soul is with Yui in the new Eva god. So how exactly did Rei betray him. I know she chose Shinji over Gendo, but that was after she took Adam. So what was he physically trying to do, if it wasn't merging Adams body with with hers?

[Archer]

Regarding the first point, I don’t think it’s ever made clear WHAT each party’s plan for Instrumentality specifically entails.

Regarding the second point, I’m pretty sure Gendo was expecting Rei to be absorbed into him (or something along those lines), not the other way around.

[Ozymansiaz1260]

Regarding the first point, I don’t think it’s ever made clear WHAT each party’s plan for Instrumentality specifically entails.

Well, it's EoE. Nothing is made 'clear', haha. There are still workable explanations for most of what's going on, though. I'm starting to think that the only answer that makes sense really is that replica spears need a replica Lilith, but I really hate that answer. It just seems kind of silly.

Regarding the second point, I’m pretty sure Gendo was expecting Rei to be absorbed into him (or something along those lines), not the other way around.

Wouldn't he have just hugged her or something if that was the case? The way it's animated, he specifically places Adam into Rei, through the boob then down to the uterus, a place where new life is made. That doesn't look like the way you would absorb someone else at all. It does make sense that he would want to merge with her or bring her into himself and then merge with Lilith, it just doesn't look like that's what's going on in that scene.

[Kendrix]

Plan A was Kaworu (as they said in EoE they would "no longer rely on Adam or the Angels" , meaning they did before), but he betrayed them and chose death instead. (If he'd simply merged with Adam, the resulted 'ascension' would not have included humans, but what was actually in Terminal Dogma is Lillith - that's why Kaworu says he "understands their plans" when he realizes its Lillith.)

Plan B was probably to compel Lillith using the LoL, but Gendo put it out of their reach.

Plan C was Unit One. It's no mere copy but an actual "offspring" of Lillith.
This plan did not include the original Lillith at all, as SEELE had no means to control her without the LoL. But Gendo did, or though he did anyways: Rei was designed as a 'remote control' of sorts.
Unfortunately for him, she dediced to got check on Shinji when she noticed him screaming up there, so in the end the choice fell to two lonely, neglected kids who had little reason to be hopeful regarding humanity.

[AWinters]

I noticed the hand placement too.
I would have thought he was placing foetal Adam into Rei's womb (which was a success), but then have his soul absorbed into it, making him Adam.
If Adam and Lilith have control over human instrumentality, becoming Adam would given him direct control.

However, his dialogue suggests that Rei was supposed to surrender her human form and absorb into him.
This way around makes less sense to me, but I'm gonna have a think on a possible process for his plan.

I believe the aim of his plan was to become Adam and for Yui to become Eve (through Eva).
I always thought that Eva was a representation of Eve (a female copy made from Adam), but that hypothesis became complicated when it turned out that Unit 01 was actually made from Lilith (unless that's just what he told SEELE so they would use Unit 01).


I think that initially placing his hand on her boob was just Gendo being a weirdo. I can't think of another reason for him doing it this way.

[baldur]

He got some kind of redemption by saying he was just afraid, but he really did love Shinji (which he absolutely did not, BTW. He wasn't smiling when Toji almost died because he was afraid).

You are correct in your assessment that Gendo did not love Shinji (not in any meaningful way, at least). I do not think that scene redeems him in any way either. It simply provides insight into how he justifies his actions to himself and makes him acknowledge it before getting snacked on by Eva-01. The most interesting thing about the scene, to me, is how it exposes Gendo and Shinji's method of thinking as eerily similar, appropriately right after Shinji's heel turn.

I think that initially placing his hand on her boob was just Gendo being a weirdo. I can't think of another reason for him doing it this way.

unironically pretty much where im at. i think the reasoning matters far less than the sexual abuse imagery

[Zusuchan]

I must be the minority here to think that Gendo did actually genuinely love Shinji. While his actions seem to indicate he considers his son as someone he has to talk with due to geniality and memories of Yui at best, I feel his talk in EoE is completely honest about his feelings and shows he did care for Shinji. I think that makes more sense than him lying because a) there is no reason he needs to lie to the love of his life and two incarnations of gods while all his plans are starting to succeed in some way and b) both Gendo and Shinji come off pretty much as sufferers of the "hedgehog complex", who want to be close to people, but fear the emotional relationships that go with that. Gendo being essentially a grown-up version of Shinji who never communicated meaningfully with anyone except one makes sense, once you also consider the fact that Ritsuko's betrayal was unexpected for Gendo, despite the fact it should not have been that hard to anticipate for a man of his intelligence. But he didn't, because genuine emotional relationships with anyone but Yui is something he faces hardships with and that leads to people finally thinking negatively of him, while he has a hard time realizing that.

Now, for the issue of Gendo placing his hand in Rei's womb, Reichu has a few ideas she presents here. Whether or not you consider them true is up to you, of course.

[Archer]

Gendo is just the trope of the “father who has trouble connecting with his kid and thus comes off as cold and uncaring” taken to 110%. I also agree that he doesn’t actually hate Shinji, just that he’s so single-mindedly focused on bringing Yui back that he’s willing to alienate everyone else to achieve that goal.

[Zusuchan]

I don't think the reason for Gendo's coldness is that he's willing to alienate everyone else to achieve his goal, but rather that he can't bring himself to have a genuine emotional relationship with anyone but Yui and always escapes whenever things get "too hard" for him.

[baldur]

I must be the minority here to think that Gendo did actually genuinely love Shinji. While his actions seem to indicate he considers his son as someone he has to talk with due to geniality and memories of Yui at best, I feel his talk in EoE is completely honest about his feelings and shows he did care for Shinji. I think that makes more sense than him lying because a) there is no reason he needs to lie to the love of his life and two incarnations of gods while all his plans are starting to succeed in some way

Personally, I feel like a sliver of regret for a lifetime of neglect and abuse isn't enough to constitute "genuine love", at least not in any meaningful way. Gendo doesn't *hate* Shinji, and he wasn't motivated by a desire to hurt him, but he clearly didn't love him enough to not treat him awfully.

I don't think Gendo loves anyone, really. Rei puts it nicely: "People who hate themselves won't be capable of loving and trusting others".

both Gendo and Shinji come off pretty much as sufferers of the "hedgehog complex", who want to be close to people, but fear the emotional relationships that go with that. Gendo being essentially a grown-up version of Shinji who never communicated meaningfully with anyone except one makes sense

I don't think the reason for Gendo's coldness is that he's willing to alienate everyone else to achieve his goal, but rather that he can't bring himself to have a genuine emotional relationship with anyone but Yui and always escapes whenever things get "too hard" for him.

I'm in complete agreement with you here, though.

[AWinters]

When Gendo explained his disatance towards Shinji in EoE, I took that as a finale plot twist that he was just like Shinji all along and that's why the hedgehog's dilemma was such an important plot point.

[Zusuchan]

^Gendo's revelations seem to fit a certain mode of important character development done at the last minute that recontextualizes a lot of the character's previous actions which Anno really seems to enjoy employing in NGE.

Baldur: I get what you say about "genuine love", but I also have found that people can do horrible, downright awful things to those they love due to personal neuroses and so forth-people have downright intentionally hurt and fucked over their families, friends and romantic partners not just in fiction but in real life while still feeling strong emotions of love for them. So I think Gendo being an awful parent who contributes to Shinji becoming, well, the sort of person to masturbate directly over another person, doesn't mean he didn't love Shinji, it just means that he was unable to use his love toward making Shinji a better person and that his own personal mental health problems and his unwillingness/incapability to get better himself ultimately led to him being someone who at first glance could rightfully be accused of not giving two shits about Shinji's wellbeing or even life.

[AWinters]

I'm doubtful of there being any love there to be honest.
In EoE, I felt that Gendo confirmed that when he bailed on everyone to save his own ass just after finding out that Shinji, being the prime target was a sitting duck on the battlefield and likely to be killed very soon.
It's like he couldn't even spare a thought for what happened to him. Rescue wasn't looking likely at that time.
On that thought - wouldn't his plan have been screwed up if Shinji had been killed?

[sithsauron]

The spear is what lets you control the Impact beyond just killing everyone, right? So what did Seele think they'd be able to do without it? And they specifically say that the missing spear is why they have to use Unit-01 instead of Lilith. Why? What were they going to do with her that would be different that they couldn't do with Lilith? Using Lilith makes sense, because she's the original and there's nobody in the drivers seat to say no.

I don't know the answer but I do notice Lillith has no core but Eva-01 has a core. The core of an awakened SEED will immediately attract the Spear to stab the core and possibly turn it into the Tree of Life, as seen in EOE, even if the Spear is stuck on the moon. Given that Lillith has no core, it cannot attract the Spear back from far away. The Spear is still required for Instrumentality in any case.

[ASW_Canuck]

A couple of questions about EoE. Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I haven't seen these questions answered anywhere.

The spear is what lets you control the Impact beyond just killing everyone, right? So what did Seele think they'd be able to do without it? And they specifically say that the missing spear is why they have to use Unit-01 instead of Lilith. Why? What were they going to do with her that would be different that they couldn't do with Lilith? Using Lilith makes sense, because she's the original and there's nobody in the drivers seat to say no. Is it that the replica spears would only work with a replica Lilith? I hope that's not the answer. I know the MPEs were doing some of the work that Lilith would have done, like the global Anti-AT field. Were they somehow going to do the spears job, also?

And Gendo acts betrayed by Rei when she takes Adam, but why? Wasn't he giving it to her? It seems like he got literally everything that he wanted. He got some kind of redemption by saying he was just afraid, but he really did love Shinji (which he absolutely did not, BTW. He wasn't smiling when Toji almost died because he was afraid). He got his punishment by being eaten, and it's my interpretation that his soul is with Yui in the new Eva god. So how exactly did Rei betray him. I know she chose Shinji over Gendo, but that was after she took Adam. So what was he physically trying to do, if it wasn't merging Adams body with with hers?

I suspect that SEELE doesn't actually know for certain that Rei has Lillith's soul, and that the body in Terminal Dogma is just an inert lump. Using the Spear to "inert" Lillith prior to initiating 3I would prevent her from derailing an event that is basically antithetical to her purpose. Minus the true Spear, they're forced to fall back on a scenario involving Unit-01, whose resident consciousness also wants to initiate some form of Instrumentality.

My interpretation of Gendo's plan was that merging Rei with Adam would allow the combined entity to release him from his physical form via 3I, and then merge his soul into the core of Unit-01 where he'd be with Yui for all eternity. Her betrayal was when she rips Adam free from him and decides to do her own thing, leaving him share his fate with the rest of humanity following 3I.

Usually when quoting, the quote is first, the response second. It's not a big problem, though, unless you're responding to multiple quotes.
-Zusuchan

[AWinters]

My interpretation of Gendo's plan was that merging Rei with Adam would allow the combined entity to release him from his physical form via 3I, and then merge his soul into the core of Unit-01 where he'd be with Yui for all eternity. Her betrayal was when she rips Adam free from him and decides to do her own thing, leaving him share his fate with the rest of humanity following 3I.

I wonder what that would have looked like for Shinji, having both of his parents in the core.

[Berserker]

I just want to point this out that-

The spear is what lets you control the Impact beyond just killing everyone, right?

As far as I know, not exactly. CI states that the lance was sent along the seeds to control them as per FAR's wish, more precisely, principles. Aside that, the lance is basically a weapon with the ability to pierce through any A.T field, having pointy tips which makes them a weapon just like any other sharp meele weapons, which also happens to have life. The ones who have the ability to invoke and moderate/control an impact are the seeds and according to EoE, the true offspring of a seed(in this case, Lilith) aka Eva 1.

There was no role of the lance in said plan A of using Kaworu, if it was successfully executed(obviously it raises a lot of question like would Lilith have let Kaworu simply take over her or would she have worked along). The fate of life would've been totally up to the Kaworu and Lilith in that case, and since Kaworu was pretty much Seele's puppet at that point, he would've let Seele decide, comparably how GNR gave the choice of decision to Shinji in the canonical case. The lance was required in plan B, even so to control Lilith, not the impact directly per se. I mean, obviously they would've compelled Lilith to implement their version of instrumentality, but that's controlling the impact via Lilith. Lilith's the one with utmost influence on the impact, being the middle and most influential factor. As for plan C, they were able to suppress the impact amidst Japan, until Lilith woke up and finished the job, the lance having merged with Eva 1 symbolising the Tree of Life playing almost inconspicuous role in terms of controlling the impact itself as the decision was simply given to Shinji to fiddle with by GNR.

In conclusion, the lance controls the "invoker", not the invoked itself directly.

[Lavinius]

While the Lance obviously is a very effective weapon, I don't think that's its only purpose. Firstly, it's clearly a reference to the Amenonuhoko, the spear used to create the world in the Japanese creation myth (EoE also features several other references to elements of this story- the droplet of water motif, and a god emerging from another god's eye).
The MP-Evas do use their imitation lances on Shogouki, but that's the limit of the Lance's violent use during Third Impact. Instead, the Lance wraps around Yui and seems to amplify her power (note that the resulting form is covered with branches that suggest antennas to broadcast the Anti-ATF). Moreover, when Lilith arrives, despite having both her and the Lance as they initially desired (Kendrix's Plan B), Seele doesn't use the Lance (either the original or the imitations) on her at all. Instead, they bind her with the MP-Evas in an infinity symbol, just as they earlier bound Shogouki within the sephirothic tree.
I think that the Lance of Longinus should be understood an instrument of both creation & destruction, which can be wielded by a Seed. Sort of like a wizard's wand I suppose.
I'm not really clear on why exactly they can't use Lilith without the Lance of Longinus, since they distinctly do not need to use it to overpower her (they use the MP-Evas for that). The only thing I can think of is that, with apologies to OP, the replica spears would only work with a replica Lilith.
Edit: Actually, checking back, they only bind Shogouki into the Sephirothic Tree after the Lance returns. So it might be that binding Lilith is also accomplished using the Lance. That would make a lot more sense.

Regarding what Gendou intended, I agree with AWinters-
*Gendou has merged with Adam
*Gendou wants to be with Yui, who is an Eva
*Gendou places Adam inside Rei's uterus, as if to impregnate her with Adam. But Adam = Gendou
Gendou intended for Rei to absorb the whole of him, not just the Adam embryo- and then, after returning to Lilith, to give birth to him as a new Adam to match Yui as the new Lilith.

As for Seele using Kaworu for Instrumentality... their dialogue as Kaworu descends in 24 is, to my memory, the only time the DCs outright replace dialogue from the OA versions.

Seele 02: The final angel has entered Central Dogma and is current descending.
Seele (indeterminate): It's all going according to plan.
Kiel: Ikari, you were a good friend, a comrade who shared our aspriations, and a collaborator who understood. This is your final task. I will be praying that it will be accomplished by Unit-01.

Here it seems that they've just sent Kaworu to be killed by Shogouki as the final Angel, presumably so that they can then start Instrumentality. Probably it's thought that Yui in particular doing the killing would give her some of Adam's powers or something?
In the revised version, we instead get this- completely different except for the very last sentence:

Seele (02): Humans forget their foolishness and repeat their mistakes.
Seele (indeterminate): If humans do not redeem themselves willingly, they will not change.
Pierre: We will not rely on the powers of the Adam or the Angels.
Kiel: Our only choice is to make changes with our own hands for the future. I will be praying that it will be accomplished by Unit-01.

(The subs I have translate Kiel's last line slightly differently between the two versions, but I'm pretty sure it's the exact same line in the Japanese)
The mistake that has been repeated must be relying on Adam, just as they did at Second Impact. So at this point- even as Kaworu begins his descent- they've already given up using him for Instrumentality, and Kiel is already planning on using Shogouki.
So why have they given up? Because their plan wasn't for Kaworu for join with Lilith at all. (Remember that Seele don't want to create a god, that the union of Adam and Lilith is forbidden to them). Their plan was for Kaworu to join with Adam, who they've already told him is inside Gendou. As soon as Kaworu starts moving for Lilith instead, they know he's betrayed them. Probably once Adam was reborn, they'd move in with the MP-Evas and bind him for Instrumentality.
As for why Kaworu is going towards Lilith- he's clearly quite puzzled by something about the situation, and it was Lilith (almost) all his siblings/children were heading towards also. I think he's already also planning on surrendering to Lilith.
If I had to fanwank something, he's confused because Lilith's soul is clearly outside her body (he's met Rei) and yet he sees Lilith's body with a soul in it (Eva-01), and moreover, he's detecting a soulless Seed in Terminal Dogma (so that must be Adam, right? Seele's lying to him about their intentions, why wouldn't they lie to him about Adam's location?). It's only when he confirms visually that the soulless Seed is Lilith and sees that she's still regenerating from having Eva-01 grown out of her, that it all clicks with him. Satisfied, he then swerves immediately into the "surrender to Lilith" plan.

...I think I may have just managed to make 24' make sense. o_O

[Zusuchan]

Lavinius wrote:
...I think I may have just managed to make 24' make sense. o_O

All hail Lavinius! Sadly, there's still some stuff about Kaworu that doesn't add up (Why does he start talking with Shinji? Why does he want Rei to be more certain/know of her identity as Lilith? Why does he immediately accept death the moment his plans don't work out? And so on). And then there's still the lake scene and the moving angel statue.

I feel 24' might forever be beyond the full comprehension of man. And that's fine, because as a way of showcasing how everything, including logic, is breaking down and the incapability of fully knowing everything in this devilishly complex world of ours, it works brilliantly.

[Lavinius]

Lavinius wrote:
...I think I may have just managed to make 24' make sense. o_O

All hail Lavinius! Sadly, there's still some stuff about Kaworu that doesn't add up (Why does he start talking with Shinji? Why does he want Rei to be more certain/know of her identity as Lilith? Why does he immediately accept death the moment his plans don't work out? And so on). And then there's still the lake scene and the moving angel statue.

He starts talking to Shinji because Shinji is cute & likeable, and a Lilin, and he likes Lilin. What other reason is needed?
I'll sooner or later make my full thread explaining the Kaworu x Rei plotline and how important it is. But the short answer is because he wants to reconcile with Lilith and ally with her for both lineages' good. And he immediately accepts death because that's the first step of this, his actual plan.
As for the 15-member-Seele... it has to be the Angels in addition to normal Seele, doesn't it? But it's still so odd. The moving statue too, though that might just be an error.