The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Derantor » Thu May 06, 2021 6:24 am

View Original PostShinji Ikari Expy wrote:It would do most of you good if you just stepped back and admitted that your reaction is an emotional one. Trying to act like amateur film critics by picking out things like “how does Wille have the budget for this?” just makes you look ridiculous.

Except that concerns about realism & things like supplies and budgets are not emotional reactions. You may think that it's ridiculous to worry about that stuff, but I prefer stories that are at least consistent in their approach to these things, and since Q made a big point out of supplies being limited, Shin showing that they're limited in name only (or only in places where it doesn't matter) is a problem, because it undermines the stakes the previous movie set up.

To give an example from Star Wars: in TLJ, the whole plot hinges on the chase situation the Rebels find themselves in. They are barely able to stay ahead of the First Order. Except, and here's the kicker, the First order has no reason to chase them around. All they need to do is take six ships, lightspace jump them to six point in front and back, to the sides, above and below the Rebel Fleet, and crush them. So one part of the worldbuilding, namely, hyperdrives, makes the plot nonsensical at base level. At which point any tension evaporates because the whole setup is revealed to be silly, not according to emotional reactions or real world physics concerns, but by the very rules the story set up itself. Of course, the counterargument is that none of that matters for the story the movie wants to tell, and that the emotional journey of the characters is much more important than the realism, and that's a fair criticism. But being able to ignore a nonsensical plot element and enjoy the movie regardless does not make the plot element itself any less nonsensical.

If you want an emotional reaction, I'm fucking pissed that Shinji, of all people, absolves his father of his sins and hands him a happy ending on a silver platter. Shinji isn't in the position to do that, since he didn't even suffer most of the horrible shit Gendo did to people. And I don't even want to begin talking about how Shinji, magically, goes from "immature selfish brat depressed to the point of catatonia" to "wise sagely figure enlightening all the other characters in Instrumentality", and then creates a perfect ending for himself while not having to lose anything in the process. Well, he saw Rei6 die, but he really doesn't seem to care as she's never brought up after her death, except when he talks to Rei2 and says "that other you found a place to belong to." So Impact-kun, one selfish asshole, forgives "I will use everybody as a tool for my plan, fuck every single one of you and the planet while I'm at it"-Gendo, another selfish asshole, and somehow, we're supposed to applaud them for that and enjoy that they got their happy ending? :rolleyes:

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby swagbuckking1 » Thu May 06, 2021 7:14 am

@Shinji Ikari Expy

I don't think your assessment is fair regarding those who express disdain for the way WILLE were with Shinji and the pilots. Most of the criticism doesn't come from "hurr durr, they were mean to him so I don't like them and the films are bad!". It mainly stems from the fact that many fans were expecting some sort of rationale for why they were so hostile in Q. I certainly know I wasn't alone in wanting scenes in 3.0+1.0 that would explain some things and hopefully help us see from WILLE's perspective; namely what actually happened after NTI, how did third impact actually come about and was Shinji responsible for it? The only snippets of information we get is from the preview at the end of 2.0, and those scenes aren't even expanded upon in 3.0+1.0 (not even in the form of flashbacks/instrumentality).

Q creates so many questions which 3.0+1.0 doesn't really answer many of. People feeling upset or confused as to WILLE's behaviour is not because of how they acted but simply because their motivations (like many things) are not fully elucidated in the final film. We learn that Sakura and Midori's father/family were killed in the NTI but Shinji was literally with Touji moments before and he doesn't even think to mention his father's death? Not even to say that he doesn't blame Shinji for what happened? That forgiveness would have helped Shinji's rehabilitation. We have a scene of Kensuke at his father's grave; why couldn't we have one of Touji's father? This Inigo Montoya moment comes across very sudden and also very personal as it doesn't really explain WILLE's rationale as a whole organisation. Because we are never given any reasons why WILLE are the way they are (the chokers, the solitary confinement, the rigged explosives), we are just left to speculate our own reasons; the current consensus on the forum appears to be: "They are just scared and desperate". It must be said that I do not think this lack of characterisation is due to bad writing but is instead due to the inherent disadvantage of the movie format.

One thing I think the last film two films do brilliantly is highlight the differences between condemnation and compassion. I've talked about this here:
post/922034/Has-3010-improved-or-worsened-Rebuild-for-you/#922034.

In essence, I believe WILLE were written to treat Shinji harshly as a meta-commentary of how not to act. They went full scorched earth in not wanting Shinji to do anything and in doing so inadvertently pushed him to do the very thing they didn't want him to do (cause another impact). However when Shinji was in the village he was greeted with the warmth and compassion of his friends which helped him find the resolve to go back to the wunder and help against his father. We even see this with Asuka and Rei in which Asuka force-feeds Shinji which just causes him to vomit but Rei is gentler and actually gets him to eat. A stark difference in approach and results.

To those that say that the same would have happened if Shinji never left with Mark 9, then that is incorrect. If Shinji had stayed on the Wunder in Q, then when the moment of truth came to fight against Gendo, he would never have piloted Unit 1 again. Shinji would simply not have been motivated to help the people who put him in solitary confinement with a bomb on his neck in order to prevent him from piloting in the first place. Shinji needed to experience kindness from his friends to become resolute and WILLE's sheer hostility would have stunted ANY of his emotional growth and maturation had he stayed with them. Ironic considering Asuka always calls him a brat.

In my mind:
Q + WILLE = Condemnation.
Shin + Village = Compassion.

When you approach it like this, WILLE's behaviour make sense as a thematic lesson on how not to treat the most dangerous boy in the world. I believe the village scenes in Shin are Anno's way of saying that the events of Q would not have happened if WILLE were simply more understanding.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby roblucci01 » Thu May 06, 2021 7:55 am

View Original PostDerantor wrote:If you want an emotional reaction, I'm fucking pissed that Shinji, of all people, absolves his father of his sins and hands him a happy ending on a silver platter. Shinji isn't in the position to do that, since he didn't even suffer most of the horrible shit Gendo did to people. And I don't even want to begin talking about how Shinji, magically, goes from "immature selfish brat depressed to the point of catatonia" to "wise sagely figure enlightening all the other characters in Instrumentality", and then creates a perfect ending for himself while not having to lose anything in the process. Well, he saw Rei6 die, but he really doesn't seem to care as she's never brought up after her death, except when he talks to Rei2 and says "that other you found a place to belong to." So Impact-kun, one selfish asshole, forgives "I will use everybody as a tool for my plan, fuck every single one of you and the planet while I'm at it"-Gendo, another selfish asshole, and somehow, we're supposed to applaud them for that and enjoy that they got their happy ending? :rolleyes:


Well, regarding Gendo in Instrumentality, he comes to the realization that a part of Yui was in Shinji all along. From my recollection, as the train takes off with Shinji and Kaworu on it, Gendo is seen by himself at the platform staring down at the ground, seemingly remorseful. To my knowledge, this may be the first time in Eva history in which Gendo feels genuine regret over his actions. In EoE, Gendo, when confronted by Rei, Kaworu, and Yui, continues to rationalize his treatment of Shinji by stating he would only hurt his son if he got closer; it is only when he is about to be denied a part in Instrumentality and ever being together with Yui again that he laments. This time around, I think Gendo kind of figured it out for himself without external convinving. Also, in Shin, when Gendo and Yui sacrifice themselves with the Gaius lance, Shinji seems genuinely surprised. He was planning to do it himself, but his parents took care of it for him. Gendo and Yui both basically being Eva units destroying themselves means no eternity together, whereas every other failure of infinity getting to regain their human form, kinda seems like poetic justice to me.

Regarding Shinji, Ha to Shin, I'm not sure any character had it tougher than him, save for Misato, maybe. Over the course of the timeskip, Mari and Asuka at least had each other; in the village, Kensuke, Hikari, and Touji at least had each other; Kaworu... may have had Kaji as a pal for part of the timeskip; Rei was probably kind of lonely. Also, in this film, I did admire that Shinji admitted when Asuka was in Unit-03, he couldn't bring himself to save her or kill her. By the end of the series, dude probably had mad PTSD. Doesn't seem like he chose to erase his memories after Instrumentality, either.
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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Konja7 » Thu May 06, 2021 8:21 am

View Original Postroblucci01 wrote:Regarding Shinji, Ha to Shin, I'm not sure any character had it tougher than him, save for Misato, maybe. Over the course of the timeskip, Mari and Asuka at least had each other; in the village, Kensuke, Hikari, and Touji at least had each other; Kaworu... may have had Kaji as a pal for part of the timeskip; Rei was probably kind of lonely. Also, in this film, I did admire that Shinji admitted when Asuka was in Unit-03, he couldn't bring himself to save her or kill her. By the end of the series, dude probably had mad PTSD. Doesn't seem like he chose to erase his memories after Instrumentality, either.

I should mention that Kaworu's friendship with Kaji would only last some months (at most), since Kaji died before his son was born. The time between the Near Third Impact and the Third Impact is pretty short.

That said, I agree that Shinji is one of the main cast who had it toughter. He has lost many important people. Not to mention the timeskip and the guilt for the situation.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Shinji Ikari Expy » Thu May 06, 2021 10:05 am

Ok my bad, I will stay away from speculating on others’ feelings and just address the concerns.

I don’t really understand the supply question. It’s totally possible that Wille is short on some supplies and spares no expense on others. Actually it seems like exactly the kinda thing that would happen in a war — uniforms look old and tattered so they can spend the money on bullets. So what? They’re prioritizing some things and neglecting others because of desperation.


View Original PostDerantor wrote:And I don't even want to begin talking about how Shinji, magically, goes from "immature selfish brat depressed to the point of catatonia" to "wise sagely figure enlightening all the other characters in Instrumentality", and then creates a perfect ending for himself while not having to lose anything in the process.


You can feel how you want but I don’t understand the use of the word “magical” to describe Shinji’s transformation. He matures quickly because of everything that happened in the last 2 movies. A person can mature overnight with the right experiences. In fact, that’s supposed to happen in stories — they depict a turning point in the life of the character in which they grow and mature.

Gendo DID pull off quite the heist, but was there any other way to stop him besides reasoning with him? I think you meant to be sarcastic when you said “one selfish asshole forgives another” but it’s sort of true. Remember Shinji made a mistake similar to Gendo in 2.0: he focused on saving one person at everyone else’s expense. At the end of the day they reach an understanding.

I don’t want to keep quoting posts (I’m responding to multiple posts in the thread, not just Deranator). If you haven’t noticed the phenomenon I’m pointing out then never mind...just carry on. But I don’t see how people can continue acting like Wille’s actions, for example, are completely bizarre and out of the blue. For the past few years, I’ve watched Eva fans (not just here but on Reddit) act as if their anger about Shinji’s treatment is an indictment of Anno’s writing. It isn’t. He explains it well, you just don’t want to accept it.

Going down the list of concerns: Touji, Hikari and Kensuke have a a more complete understanding of what actually happened than Midori and the newer Wille members. Being a paramilitary org, it’s no surprise the Wille people are more gung ho than the villagers and likely to see violence, punishment, revenge as the answer. Is it right? No. But in what way is that surprising or not believable.

I like swag’s idea of Wille representing judgment and the village representing compassion. But that’s a sign of good storytelling — the use of symbolism. It’s not that the writing is bad.

In any case, there are explanations for most of these things. The continued rejection and demands that we get more, more, more world building are what baffle me. Sorry for the long posts.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Derantor » Thu May 06, 2021 11:59 am

View Original Postroblucci01 wrote:Regarding Shinji, Ha to Shin, I'm not sure any character had it tougher than him, save for Misato, maybe.

Hard disagree here. Sleeping through 14 years of hardship immediately disqualifies him from having it "the thoughest". I also don't think that Unit 01 and 13 were destroyed; seems like the disappeared into another dimension or something, along with all the other Evas.

@Shinji Ikari Expy: Yet they get new uniforms; the new black suits, the multicolored spacesuits, the new suits for the pilots ... the have the resources to fashion those escape capsules from what was originally orbital assault pods, and even what they pulled with the Wunder start-up sequence requires a lot of industrial capacity. Granted, they could have scavenged all of that. The point is that we have to assume things, and that it doesn't impact the story in any tangible way, because all the tools the heroes need are at their disposal.

A person can mature overnight with the right experiences.

He's so riddled with trauma that the mere sight of the choker makes him puke - he spends the first half of the movie being silent, puking and crying. Then he sees Rei6 go pop in front of his eyes - a repeat of what happened with Kaworu, which sent him on this downward spiral to begin with. I simply don't see how that would not have a detrimental effect, instead of a positive one, and I don't see how he manages to grow enough confidence by doing nothing in the first half of the movie to be able to stand up to Gendo - the other big trauma in his life, as Gendo was the one who abandoned him. But Shinji achieves Zen and his mere presence is enough for Gendo to break down in fear.

I'm not saying it's impossible. And maybe it comes off differently in the movie, who knows. I'm just having trouble believing that Shinji Ikari, who wasn't healthy to begin with, achieves this kind of rapid maturity to the point of becoming *the* agent of inducing change in other characters and helping them come out of their misery; that he manages to grow past all his insecurities and traumata and take the fate of the world onto his shoulders and ace the whole thing.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Konja7 » Thu May 06, 2021 12:35 pm

View Original PostDerantor wrote:@Shinji Ikari Expy: Yet they get new uniforms; the new black suits, the multicolored spacesuits, the new suits for the pilots ... the have the resources to fashion those escape capsules from what was originally orbital assault pods, and even what they pulled with the Wunder start-up sequence requires a lot of industrial capacity. Granted, they could have scavenged all of that. The point is that we have to assume things, and that it doesn't impact the story in any tangible way, because all the tools the heroes need are at their disposal.

Well, if these aspects don't really impact the story, I don't think we need to know so much details.




View Original PostDerantor wrote:I'm not saying it's impossible. And maybe it comes off differently in the movie, who knows. I'm just having trouble believing that Shinji Ikari, who wasn't healthy to begin with, achieves this kind of rapid maturity to the point of becoming *the* agent of inducing change in other characters and helping them come out of their misery; that he manages to grow past all his insecurities and traumata and take the fate of the world onto his shoulders and ace the whole thing.

Before Rei Q died, Shinji had already recovered (due to the support of his friends) and wanted to repair his mistakes.

Rei Q's death is the last push that gives him the strength to decide to take action.

I don't even think Shinji is so close to Rei Q. However, he still know the unfair of the situation.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu May 06, 2021 6:13 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:
View Original PostShinji Ikari Expy#922173 wrote:It would do most of you good if you just stepped back and admitted that your reaction is an emotional one. Trying to act like amateur film critics by picking out things like “how does Wille have the budget for this?” just makes you look ridiculous.

I think the question was "how Nerv has the budget for this?".

I don't care about that issue, but other people seems to be really concerned. I don't think they have right to express the dissapointment that this aspect isn't more explored..

I can only speak about myself, but the underlying issue beyond "how neo-NERV can build all of this" is one of the environment's coherence.There are many things that don't make sense for me in this new world (and I don't seem to be the only one to feel like that), to the point that this world feels less like a world were characters have to live in it and more like a dream-scape (or rather a nightmarish-scape), especially in light of the ending where Shinji magically repair everything and resurrect everyone. And while the pre-3I (and NGE)'s setting was pretty outlandish (the Geofront should not work, period), it still tried to stay grounded in a modicum of reality to keep it somewhat grounded (that's why you see them do mundane things like go shopping or that there are mentions of budget bankrupting entire countries to keep Tokyo-3's operations afloat, of international treaties to limit the uses of Evangelion technology...), but I don't see it from what I've seen and read of Shin.
Especially since personally I've interpreted the message of Q that he'll have to learn to live in this new world and find his place in it : You Can (Not) Redo, "learn how the world work at least", "what you need is to find a place to regain hope and call your own"... and comes Shin and Shinji apparently does the exact contrary: he refuses to find a home, reject the world he's in by Redoing everything ever harder than what we thought possible. With (for me) comes as a shock after nine years of waiting and speculation about the different characters' motivations, the working of this new world... only to have it all swept aside as "not really important", Shinji's feelings and the few guys in that village are what the story deems important.



View Original PostKonja7 wrote:Many people don't like WILLE's treatment to Shinji in Q. You would need to accept that's an opinion people will have.

Again, I can only speak for myself, but I've spent a lot of time speculating about the reasons for WILLE's treatment of Shinji in Q, that since they're supposed to be good guys and Shinji's POV is shown as being skewed (with him being an "immature brat" and all that jazz), there must have been deeper and better reasons for their behavior than mere spite (that's from here that all the theories about what exactly happened with N3I and A3I or the theories about possible "BM-01 and 02" that could had been spawned by Unit 01 came from), so seeing in Shin that no, it's actually mostly spite and that they extend said spite to their own pilots even after 14 years feels... disappointing.



View Original Postswagbuckking1 wrote:In essence, I believe WILLE were written to treat Shinji harshly as a meta-commentary of how not to act. They went full scorched earth in not wanting Shinji to do anything and in doing so inadvertently pushed him to do the very thing they didn't want him to do (cause another impact). However when Shinji was in the village he was greeted with the warmth and compassion of his friends which helped him find the resolve to go back to the wunder and help against his father. We even see this with Asuka and Rei in which Asuka force-feeds Shinji which just causes him to vomit but Rei is gentler and actually gets him to eat. A stark difference in approach and results.

A little precision: I don't think that Shinji pukes after Asuka force-feed him, since afterward Asuka explain what she did to Kensuke and told him that with that he should last for the time being, he pukes when he sees her DSS Choker, which triggers his PTSD from Kaworu's death. I would also put some nuance in her behavior toward Shinji: while her force-feeding was brutish, at that point that was the only way to have him fed since he was dead-set on starving himself to death, and she still does shows some compassion to him: when she realizes that the sight of her DSS Choker triggers his trauma, she starts wearing a red scarf when around him so he doesn't see it anymore.



View Original PostKonja7 wrote:In fact, the current discussion in this thread wasn't by people who hated WILLE. They were just dissapointed, because they expected WILLE will have more development in Shin.

I wasn't dissapointed, because I don't care about WILLE (although I don't hate them either).

View Original PostShinji Ikari Expy wrote:Konja, your attitude toward Wille is the correct one — they aren’t important, so who cares about their development? I haven’t noticed anything unusual about your posts, so this isn’t directed at you.

The problem (and, once again, I can only speak for myself) is that Q tried to make them important: I mean, they are basically NERV but 100% good this time! And completely want to protect humanity! And they are fighting the big bad conspiracy, the one that was flat-out untouchable in NGE! They're even introduced with a bombastic soundtrack when they first take off and beat the shit out of neo-NERV's biomechanical abominations, and the people in Village-3 keep saying how great they are and how they owe them everything. And yet in the end they didn't amounted to much, especially since everything they did turned out to had been planned by the bad guys to advance their plans: operation US? Planned by SEELE and Gendo to retrieve Shinji so they could break the seal to Lilith's Chamber and start Fourth Impact. Their stopping of Fourth Impact? Planned by Gendo to get rid of SEELE and Kaworu and get one of the vital pieces of his ritual for Instrumentality (and with Shin revealing that they had three battleships, four Adam's Vessels, many Mark.07 and their truckload of Nemesis Series, it's heavily implied that WILLE only managed to even reach the Geofront because Gendo allowed them, or else he would had crushed them easily), the final operation to stop Gendo for good? Once again, they were manipulated by Gendo so they could bring him the final two pieces of his ritual (Unit 01 and the 9th Angel in Asuka), with them heading head first into the trap laid out by Fuyutsuki for extra-humiliation. The one and only thing they did that genuinely screwed the bad guys was the creation of the spear of Gaius. (I'm genuinely surprised that Gendo didn't saw it coming, since according to the script the generation of a spear were the battleships' main purpose)
You almost get the feeling that the only thing WILLE managed to do is screw themselves everytime they did something: no operation US, and SEELE and neo-NERV would had stayed trapped inside their HQ in from of an unattainable Lilith and 12th Angel, had they not attacked EVA-13 when it descended to Terminal Dogma, Kaworu might have had a better chance at calming and convincing Shinji to not touch the spears, and in Shin, had they not charged head first at the first sign of activity from neo-NERV, Gendo and Fuyu would had stayed in Antarctica, able to do fuck-all until Fuyutsuki ends up tanged by the surrounding L-Barrier.

The fact that their final act before heading to the final battle (sending the capsules with samples of every lifeforms in space to use them later to repopulate Earth), the culmination of all these years of research initiated by Kaji, is heavily implied by the ending to had been useless because Shinji repaired everything by himself is just rubbing salt on the wounds at this point.
Last edited by ElMariachi on Sun May 09, 2021 5:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Konja7 » Thu May 06, 2021 7:01 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I don't care about that issue, but other people seems to be really concerned. I don't think they have right to express the dissapointment that this aspect isn't more explored.

I make a mistake in this part.

I hope it is still clear in the context that I want to say:

I think they have right to express the dissapointment that this aspect isn't more explored.



View Original PostElMariachi wrote:The fact that their final act before heading to the final battle (sending the capsules with samples of every lifeforms in space to use them later to repopulate Earth), the culmination of all these years of research initiated by Kaji, is heavily implied by the ending to had been useless because Shinji repaired everything by himself is just rubbing salt on the wounds at this point.

I have understood these capsules fall on Earth during Shinji's restoration of Earth. So, maybe that helps (?).

It is possible these samples of every life form are necessary to a fast repopulation using the Instrumentality. Kaworu will likely know about them, since it was Kaji's plan.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby swagbuckking1 » Fri May 07, 2021 7:02 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:A little precision: I don't think that Shinji pukes after Asuka force-feed him, since afterward Asuka explain what she did to Kensuke and told him that with that he should last for the time being, he pukes when he sees her DSS Choker, which triggers his PTSD from Kaworu's death.


I have heard rumors that Shinji actually pukes multiple times. The case you are referring to may be the second time he vomits and the forcefeeding may be the first time. I believe Asuka actually states that how can Shinji keep throwing up if he hasn't had anything to eat. Although we will need to watch it to confirm.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri May 07, 2021 2:57 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I have understood these capsules fall on Earth during Shinji's restoration of Earth. So, maybe that helps (?).

It is possible these samples of every life form are necessary to a fast repopulation using the Instrumentality. Kaworu will likely know about them, since it was Kaji's plan.

They do? Guess we'll have to wait a confirmation from someone who saw it (or to see it with our own eyes) to be sure. That would raise the number of times WILLE were actually useful to two... and I'm sorry to say that I'm still salty of how Shinji's Instrumentality redid everything in one snap. Maybe a good compromise would had been to have Shinji restore the world, but with the animal and some plants still disappeared, and the capsules later used to reintroduce them to the cleansed world with Kredit's efforts. (fanfiction time: and instead of having Shinji waking up at Ube station in a salaryman outfit, have him wake up in his office in the Third Animal Reintroduction Laboratory in the waters near Village-3, him wearing a lab coat with Kredit's logo on it, showing that he continued his vow to live to make amend for what he did, working to slowly rebuild the world)


View Original Postswagbuckking1 wrote:I have heard rumors that Shinji actually pukes multiple times. The case you are referring to may be the second time he vomits and the forcefeeding may be the first time. I believe Asuka actually states that how can Shinji keep throwing up if he hasn't had anything to eat. Although we will need to watch it to confirm.

I've checked the script again, and indeed he pukes twice: once shortly after arriving at Village-3 when Asuka gets out of the shower and he sees her DSS Choker, and the second time when Asuka make him eat, at which point she loses patience and force-feed him in that now (in)famous scene, and it seems that the food stayed in his stomach, since in the next scene she mentions to Kensuke that she made him eat and that he should last for a while.
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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Shinji Ikari Expy » Mon May 10, 2021 12:49 am

I feel my position is being misunderstood by most of you. It is perfectly OK to dislike Wille's actions. What I'm saying is that has nothing to do with the artistic validity of the story, but a lot of fans seem to think it does.

The only responsibility Anno has as a writer is to explain the motivations of the characters. He did that. The writer does NOT have to make you agree with the actions of the characters.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Again, I can only speak for myself, but I've spent a lot of time speculating about the reasons for WILLE's treatment of Shinji in Q, that since they're supposed to be good guys and Shinji's POV is shown as being skewed (with him being an "immature brat" and all that jazz), there must have been deeper and better reasons for their behavior than mere spite (that's from here that all the theories about what exactly happened with N3I and A3I or the theories about possible "BM-01 and 02" that could had been spawned by Unit 01 came from), so seeing in Shin that no, it's actually mostly spite and that they extend said spite to their own pilots even after 14 years feels... disappointing.


OK, hear me out: what if they're neither totally good nor totally evil? They can be the "good guys" in this war and still do bad things like treating the pilots unfairly out of spite. No one is entirely good or evil. That's how it is in real life and good character writing in fiction emulates this.

I personally think their treatment of Shinji in Q was relatively mild considering they also treat their own pilots harshly, which is why I'm so taken aback by the fact that some fans are still mad after all these years. But that's beside the point. The point is: even if Wille was wrong to treat Shinji that way, it doesn't make the story bad. It's certainly not unbelievable or absurd.
Last edited by Shinji Ikari Expy on Mon May 10, 2021 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Konja7 » Mon May 10, 2021 5:27 am

View Original PostShinji Ikari Expy wrote:I personally think their treatment of Shinji in Q was relatively mild considering they also treat their own pilots harshly, which is why I'm so taken aback by the fact that some fans are still mad after all these years. But that's beside the point. The point is: even if Wille was wrong to treat Shinji that way, it doesn't make the story bad. It's certainly not unbelievable or absurd.


It's true that considering how WILLE treats their own Eva pilots after 14 years of working with them, it makes perfect sense the way they treat Shinji in Q.

I think WILLE's extreme behavior makes sense in general, since their situation it is pretty horrible and they are desperated and scared.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby swagbuckking1 » Mon May 10, 2021 11:57 am

BEWARE: WALL OF TEXT INCOMING.

View Original PostShinji Ikari Expy wrote:The point is: even if Wille was wrong to treat Shinji that way, it doesn't make the story bad. It's certainly not unbelievable or absurd.


I guess this is where we agree to disagree then. With each revelation that comes out regarding the measures WILLE take against Shinji and their own pilots, it becomes more and more unrealistic for me to the point where it's almost comical. Let's go through some of them here:

- They wear the explosive DSS chokers 24/7 which will kill the pilots should they risk awakening an Eva.
- They are kept in a single room rigged with explosives.
- In Shinji's case, he is (intended to be) put in 24/7 solitary confinement with explosives fitted as well.
- Shinji is escorted around the wunder whilst restrained on a stretcher. (NOTE: The only time he isn't, is when Sakura takes him to Ritsuko).
- It is confirmed in another thread that Misato gave clear permission to the crew for them to shoot Shinji on sight if they suspect he is attempting to get into an Eva.

Now let me attempt to deconstruct these measures one-by-one:

- It is understandable that Asuka and Mari wear DSS chokers because after all they are pilots and there is a risk of awakening. However in Shinji's case, he is forbidden from piloting and so there is no risk of awakening (remember Ritsuko did not think NERV would come after him, so they had no reason to think he would escape). So why place the DSS choker on him? Well we have already established it is simply because they have a resentment against him; there is no special, pragmatic reason. Is this realistic? Well I would say no for reasons I will explain later but I can certainly understand why others may say it is, so yeah.
- I don't think I will understand why they would keep their two main "soldiers" if you will, in an explosively rigged room. I believe Expy himself stated that from a tactical point, it's an extremely dumb move on WILLE's part. After all, if Asuka and Mari didn't have plot armor, what's to stop Gendo from tricking WILLE into killing their own pilots with these explosives? How would WILLE stop Gendo then? Will they use Shinji? No, for reasons I will state later. And another thing, we know that their rooms were already fitted with explosives so why on Earth would they add extra after the events of Q (when they stopped 4th impact). What do they hope to achieve with more bombs? Make the pilots more "deader" than they already are? In my opinion, this doesn't even come across as paranoid but just plain childish. Is this measure realistic from a story standpoint? No not in my eyes.
- We know they intended to put Shinji in a solitary cell as this is what they do in Shin. If it was solitary confinement on it's own, then I believe it would be a realistic measure that would happen in real life. However I believe the writers did not factor in the effects of solitary confinement (especially one that is rigged to explode) on fully grown men; never mind a 14 year old who's just come out of a 14 year coma. Many people think solitary confinement is a walk in the park so I made another post a while ago highlighting why that's not the case:

SPOILER: Show
View Original Postswagbuckking1 wrote:I remember when before Shin came out people here theorized that if Shinji stayed on the Wunder, they would eventually softened to him and let him help in ways that wouldn't have involved piloting. However with these revelations it looks like they intended to keep him in an isolated room far from everyone else that is (presumably) rigged with explosives as well as keeping the choker on his neck. Not even allowed to freely leave his cell without WILLE's permission (it is unlikely they would let him out judging from these measures).

Even though Asuka and Mari were treated like this as well, at least they had each other and were able to leave as they had responsibilities in piloting. But Shinji was forbidden from piloting and was to be kept by himself except maybe being checked up on by Sakura now and again. So judging from these leaks (we will have to wait to properly see the full context) WILLE intended to lock Shinji in solitary confinement.

I have copied and pasted some of the effects of Solitary Confinement from Wikipedia below:


Psychiatric
Research indicates that the psychological effects of solitary confinement may encompass "anxiety, depression, anger, cognitive disturbances, perceptual distortions, obsessive thoughts, paranoia, and psychosis." The lack of human contact, and the sensory deprivation that often go with solitary confinement, can have a severe negative impact on a prisoner's mental state that may lead to certain mental illnesses such as depression, permanent or semi-permanent changes to brain physiology, an existential crisis, and death.

Self-harm
According to a March 2014 article in American Journal of Public Health, "Inmates in jails and prisons attempt to harm themselves in many ways, resulting in outcomes ranging from trivial to fatal." Self harm was seven times higher among the inmates where seven percent of the jail population was confined in isolation. Fifty-three percent of all acts of self harm took place in jail. "Self-harm" included, but was not limited to, cutting, banging heads, self-amputations of fingers or testicles. These inmates were in bare cells, and were prone to jumping off their beds head first into the floor or even biting through their veins in their wrists. A main issue within the prison system and solitary confinement is the high number of inmates who turn to self-harm. Many of the inmates look to self-harm as a way to "avoid the rigors of solitary confinement."

Physical
Solitary confinement has been reported to cause hypertension, headaches and migraines, profuse sweating, dizziness, and heart palpitations. Many inmates also experience extreme weight loss due to digestion complications and abdominal pain. Many of these symptoms are due to the intense anxiety and sensory deprivation. Inmates can also experience neck and back pain and muscle stiffness due to long periods of little to no physical activity. These symptoms often worsen with repeated visits to solitary confinement.

Social
The effects of isolation unfortunately do not stop once the inmate has been released. After release from segregated housing, psychological effects have the ability to sabotage a prisoner's potential to successfully return to the community and adjust back to ‘normal’ life. The inmates are often startled easily, and avoid crowds and public places. They seek out confined small spaces because the public areas overwhelm their sensory stimulation.


And this is just for solitary confinement. There are so many other things going on with and happening (or could happen) to Shinji such as the things below:

    1 - Shinji being only 14 years old.
    2 - Shinji being abandoned and neglected by his father.
    3 - Shinji being coerced/emotionally blackmailed to pilot Unit 1.
    4 - Shinji seeing girls he cared for "die".
    5 - Shinji being in a coma for 14 years.
    6 - Shinji being told he has a bomb on his neck.
    7 - Being told it is because he is being punished.
    8 - Being told he cannot pilot the eva anymore (he is effectively "useless" now).
    9 - Have his former co-pilot and friend try and punch him after he thought she was dead.
    10 - [Potentially] being told he started NTI and devastated the world.
    11 - [Potentially] being told that the girl he tried to save is "gone" and that she was a clone of his mother.
    12 - Being imprisoned in a cell (presumably) surrounded by explosives and not being able to freely leave.
    13 - Be completely isolated from everyone except when being checked up by a girl who's father he got killed. (NOTE: Mari might want to see him so Shinji at least has her, maybe).
    14 - Have his mother figure (the woman who made him pilot the eva the most) threaten to detonate the choker around his neck and blow his head off when he tries to leave.

With the above list, is it any wonder his head is so messed up? I understand the purpose of these films is all about growing up and taking responsibility but expecting Shinji to willingly allow himself to be subjected to the treatment WILLE had in store for him is pure, unadulterated masochism. Much of what was is written here can safely be considered cruel, inhumane and arguably, torture.

There is a massive difference between taking responsibility for one's mistakes and just letting the whole world torture you because you did something bad. My main fear and problem with Q and Thrice is that their main theme, which is accepting responsibility, is equated with accepting unreasonably cruel treatment. And I just think that is an EXTREMELY unhealthy message to send to people especially if they are depressed or live in abusive relationships.


When you take all these into account, does it place into perspective how messed up Shinji would have been had he stayed on the wunder? This is assuming that they thought they would never have a need for him, but as we find out in Shin, they needed Shinji in the end to defeat Gendo. If Shinji never left with Mark 09 and Misato successfully kept him "protective" custody, then one of three things would have happened when WILLE actually needed him to save everyone:

A: He would not have been in the mental state to pilot Unit 1 and Gendo would have completely wrecked him due to shit synch ratios.
B: He would have told Misato and co. to fuck off and die. We've seen this nihilism before from Shinji (after the 5th angel). His incarceration alongside the humiliation and guilt from wearing the choker will have ratcheted up by a million.
C: He wouldn't have piloted because he would have killed himself. There's only so much a 14 year old can take and when subjected to a fate that causes even hardened criminals to resort to self-harm, genital mutilation and suicide, then what chance does Shinji have?

Now back to my original point, do I think this measure is realistic? I would like to say yes if it was the solitary on it's own, however when combined with the other things, then I think the chances of Shinji commiting suicide is extremely high to the point where it's not believable for him to continue as an anime protagonist. You have to make sure the protagonist goes through difficulty in order to experience growth and change, however if you make it too harsh (to the point of committing suicide) then it seems less believable that they live to continue the story. On a separate note, many people think that Shinji was immature for leaving with Mark 09 the first chance he got and that this is proof that he is, in Asuka's words, a "brat". But let's be realistic, if this story is about Shinji's growth and maturation, then how exactly would WILLE's treatment of him be conducive to that? The truth is WILLE's sheer hostility towards him would have completely stunted any emotional growth and maturation in Shinji and it would have destroyed the point of the film. Also no-one can argue that WILLE would have eventually "come round" or "softened-up" towards Shinji because even after 14 years they still don't trust their own pilots. So yeah, Shinji most likely would have been stuck in solitary with a bomb around his neck until he either killed himself or the war ended (but even this doesn't guarantee his freedom).

- Regarding the stretcher business. I don't understand why you have to restrain Shinji on a stretcher when the kid has already surrendered himself and has come voluntarily. Maybe WILLE are just full of bondage fetishists; it would certainly explain the chokers as well.
- If the DSS chokers and the explosive rooms weren't enough, Misato actually gave orders to the crew to shoot Shinji if they thought he was trying to pilot again. At this point, I just think this is just overkill. I mean the kid has a bomb on his neck that prevents him from awakening an Eva, you intended to keep him locked up even though he can't really leave the wunder except with outside help and now you intend to shoot him if you think he'll get into an Eva. The problem with this, is that piloting an Eva requires all the bridge-bunnies to sortie the damn thing. Shinji cannot enter Unit 1 by himself, especially since the thing is being used as an engine so why do they assume that Shinji is capable of being Sam Fisher and sneaking into Unit 1? We see that Sakura and Midori are actually willing to shoot Shinji in 3.0+1.0 and do so when he merely suggests that he pilot Unit 1. But seriously what harm would Shinji have done in Unit 1 considering the fact that Gendo was already going to start another impact anyway? Why actively try and kill (or injure in Sakura's case) the only guy that can save your ass? One cannot argue that they were just being "desperate or panicking" because in Midori's case, she actually takes the time to confirm her orders from Misato. This shows that at least, she was still of lucid mind. This particular altercation just beggars belief in my mind and the fact that Misato actually gave those orders on top of all the other measures is absolutely extraordinary. So as you can imagine, I do not think this was realistically executed.

However, I can already hear some detractors say: "So what? Misato hesitated to detonate the DSS choker and also took a bullet for Shinji. She redeemed herself from putting the DSS choker on him and the kill-order for if they thought he would try and get into an Eva."

And to those people I say….not really. There is an idiom attributed to Benjamin Franklin and it goes like this: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." How does this apply to Misato and Shinji's relationship? Well Misato wouldn't have had to hesitate to pull the trigger if she didn't put it on him in the first place. Misato wouldn't have had to take a bullet for Shinji, if she didn't give permission for the crew to shoot him in the first place. Let's take this following dialogue for example:

916-929:

Kitakami: "It's a good thing we got Major Shikinami back. But why'd we have to take that disease along with her?"

Aoba: "Just leave it alone. Better than Nerv still being able to use him."

Tama: "If he tries to get into an Evangelion, all hands have permission to shoot on sight. There's nothing to worry about this time."

Kitakami: "Come on, that's all for show. The last time he broke out of here, the Captain couldn't put him down. I've got zero trust about this time either."

Nagara: "He was a kid. I can understand why she'd hesitate."

Kitakami: "That 'kid' caused Near Third Impact and murdered my entire family!"

Hyuga: "Near Third was a consequence of what he did, not his goal. The Captain's doing her best to atone for that too."

Takao: "That's right. She's who Kaji entrusted with Wille, and it's our job to trust the captain."



We learn a few things from this dialogue. Firstly, the older WILLE members are much more understanding to Shinji and Misato's situation: Aoba and Hyuga understand that it's better to keep an eye on Shinji and that he never meant to start NTI, Takao is one who always trusts Misato's judgement and Sumire understands that Misato would have found it difficult to kill a child, especially one that Misato was close with. Secondly, it appears that the younger WILLE members (Midori, Sakura and Tama) are the ones that are fearful/hateful towards Shinji (NOTE: Tama is a strange case, he strikes me as the sort of kid that just follows what everyone else is feeling. He might not feel anything towards Shinji beyond what you'd expect). Finally it appears that most of WILLE crew members are actually reasonable people and are not the extremely desperate and paranoid individuals some people on the forum believe. Remember this is AFTER Shinji started the 4th impact in Q. The fact that some of the WILLE crew members speak of Shinji in this way, show they are capable of understanding. Most actually trust Misato and respect her judgement except for Midori, who questions Misato's capabilities in following through on her threats.

Which brings me to my next point. Misato has had no hesitation in pulling rank in the past. In 2.0, she even has an altercation with Ritsuko, her best friend, right before they fight the 8th angel. Misato is a woman that will tell even her best friend to STFU, when it comes to doing what she wants. Having said that, (timeskip shenanigans aside) there's no reason why she couldn't have done the same with the younger WILLE crew members. She could have nipped all of it in the bud by telling Sakura, Midori and the rest of them that Shinji was groomed to cause NTI and it was not his fault.

Instead, despite being the captain that everyone loves and fears, she kowtowed to the crew's paranoia and had the pilots fitted with explosive chokers, put in explosively rigged solitary confinement and gave the order to kill Shinji if they feared the worst. This is the sort of thing that drives fully grown men to suicide, never mind 14 year olds that have just come out of a coma. Imagine if Shinji did commit suicide in his cell. Who would Misato and WILLE have turned to in order to defeat Gendo in the end? What if Gendo tricked WILLE into killing their own pilots with the explosives? They would be properly screwed then. If Misato actually cared, as we are led to believe from her hesitation to kill Shinji, then she would have told the rest of the WILLE crew to fuck off, instead of alienating and putting Shinji and the pilots in that much risk. Are we really expected to believe that Misato placed such extreme countermeasures on Shinji just to appease Midori and Sakura? Not likely. This is why I believe that Misato would not have put the DSS choker on Shinji in the first place, and her doing so in Q was extremely unrealistic and out of character, even with anything that happened during the timeskip.

Some of you will say: "Who cares about realism? It's a show about aliens and growing up." While this is true, Anno has proven that he is able to pull the themes off much better when you look at the NGE series. Disregarding the self-contained narrative, it is obvious that the purpose of Q was to bring Shinji to the point he was at after episode 24 of the series. If we look at how NGE/EOE handled Shinji's depression, we see that it is quite realistic:

The neglect and coercion by the adults in his life, almost dying to angels multiple times, the sexual tension with Asuka, almost killing Touji, finding out Rei is a clone of his mother, Misato putting the moves on him and having to kill Kaworu all culminate towards Shinji's mental state during EOE. Shinji is passively suicidal but it's due to the *situation* and his own introverted tendencies instead of people actively trying to hurt and isolate him. He finds the will to live again due to his mothers words despite knowing just how difficult living might be. If you remove all the Evas and the Angels from the story, the themes that are touched upon (isolation, neglect, misunderstanding) still apply and the audience can still resonate with them.

The rebuilds however go about it completely differently. They bring Shinji to that same suicidal state by having all the characters/plot actively harm Shinji's mental health by:

- Putting him in a coma for 14 years so he is completely clueless. Imagine how groggy you are when you wake up in the morning and then multiply that by a million.
- Have Misato psychologically castrate Shinji by telling him he won't do anything with a look of disdain on her face.
- Have Ritsuko make Shinji feel dread by telling him he has a bomb on his neck and it's because he is being "punished".
- Not tell him why he is being punished when he asks Misato.
- Have Asuka try to punch Shinji after he thought she was dead.
- Tell Shinji the girl he saved is dead.
- Have his "mother figure" threaten to blow his head off for wanting to leave with the girl you just told him is dead.
- Have Asuka and Mari attack Shinji in Lilith's chamber even though Shinji was seemingly willing to listen to them had Asuka not kept attacking. (Watch that scene again and you'll see when Asuka learns what Shinji is trying to do, she stops attacking but instead of explaining that he's being manipulated, she just calls him a brat instead).
- Even Mari was willing to potentially kill or cripple Shinji with the Anti-AT rounds. (We don't know what the AA rounds are truly capable of because the only time they are used on screen, they don't work. The cartridges state that they are armor and AT field piercing and have explicit restrictions on their use. The fact that Mari requires Asuka's explicit authorization to use them imply that they are most likely lethal and would have killed/crippled Shinji had he been in a normal Eva).
- Have Shinji's friend's head explode with the device Shinji's "mother figure" actually meant for him. Imagine seeing someone's head explode and then remember that your "mother figure" actually meant that to be for you. That would certainly mess anyone up.
- Have Asuka then kick and manhandle him when he is catatonic.
- Have Asuka force feed him to the point where he pukes whilst he is still grieving the death of his friend.
- Have Shinji only be escorted whilst tied to a stretcher despite him coming voluntarily.
- Have Misato place Shinji in 24/7 solitary confinement in a cell rigged with explosives.
- Have Misato tell the WILLE crew to shoot Shinji on sight if they think he's getting into an EVA.
- Have people tell Shinji that he's being a brat the entire time for reacting badly to all this.

By having Misato, Asuka, WILLE reject and "punish" Shinji so harshly so it kicks off his isolation and desperation, it makes Shinji's "recovery" seem less believable. Anno himself didn't even know how to make Shinji recover psychologically in 3.0+1.0 and he actually had to ask the voice actors on how to make that happen. The story made the WILLE crew go full scorched-earth and in doing so made Shinji's "growth" and his reconciliation with Misato seem impossible. I have already stated that I believe Q represents "Condemnation" and Shin represents "Compassion" and I think both films pull that off brilliantly. But that doesn't mean I think the characters acted in a realistic manner. I do not believe that Misato would have placed such harsh sanctions on Shinji in the first place for the reasons I have stated above. And if she did, I do not believe that Shinji would have easily forgiven Misato (even IF she took a bullet for him) as we see he does in the film. I do not believe that WILLE were merely "scared and desperate" because as the dialogue above shows, they are surprisingly understanding (but still disapproving) of Shinji's situation despite him literally starting another impact. I do not believe that Misato would have bent over to Sakura and Midori's resentment and taken measures against Shinji, just to ease their minds.

In summary, my main problem with the post-timeskip rebuilds is that I feel they gaslight the audience in thinking that Shinji was just being a "brat" the entire time by having Asuka and Mari say: "You have grown a little/You smell like an adult now." However, the truth is Shinji's been through so much mental suffering perpetrated by the people he cares about, that it's a miracle he's not killed himself. It would certainly break most of us on this forum. The movies seek to show Shinji "finally" taking responsibility when the truth is, the plot went so above and beyond putting him down in such an extreme manner in the first place.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Konja7 » Mon May 10, 2021 12:46 pm

View Original Postswagbuckking1 wrote:We learn a few things from this dialogue. Firstly, the older WILLE members are much more understanding to Shinji and Misato's situation: Aoba and Hyuga understand that it's better to keep an eye on Shinji and that he never meant to start NTI, Takao is one who always trusts Misato's judgement and Sumire understands that Misato would have found it difficult to kill a child, especially one that Misato was close with. Secondly, it appears that the younger WILLE members (Midori, Sakura and Tama) are the ones that are fearful/hateful towards Shinji (NOTE: Tama is a strange case, he strikes me as the sort of kid that just follows what everyone else is feeling. He might not feel anything towards Shinji beyond what you'd expect). Finally it appears that most of WILLE crew members are actually reasonable people and are not the extremely desperate and paranoid individuals some people on the forum believe. Remember this is AFTER Shinji started the 4th impact in Q. The fact that some of the WILLE crew members speak of Shinji in this way, show they are capable of understanding. Most actually trust Misato and respect her judgement except for Midori, who questions Misato's capabilities in following through on her threats.


I think Aoba wants the complaints about Misato's decision to stop ("leave it alone" is about the decision). It's Hyuga the only one who really defends Shinji saying the Near Third Impact was an accident.

Nagara understand why Misato doesn't explode Shinji's head (since he is young), but it is to defend Misato.


I think this conversation seems to call into question the trust that WILLE had in Misato.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Shinji Ikari Expy » Mon May 10, 2021 1:03 pm

The explosives rigged room is the only detail I found to be over the top. I found it redundant in light of the existence of the choker, is all. But it is not important...it's basically trivial to the story as a whole.

I can tell that you won't be convinced so I don't want to waste more time arguing. All I can say is that I feel sorry for anyone who continues resenting the other characters on Shinji's behalf, and whose resentment keeps them from enjoying the Rebuilds. The story is about how he overcomes his own childishness, faces his own mistakes and sets things right. It's a great message for young people, albeit not new or original.

Continuing to be mad about how unfair the situation is to Shinji (and it is unfair) after everything is resolved is no way to enjoy the movie imho, but to each his own.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby swagbuckking1 » Mon May 10, 2021 1:16 pm

View Original PostShinji Ikari Expy wrote:The explosives rigged room is the only detail I found to be over the top. I found it redundant in light of the existence of the choker, is all. But it is not important...it's basically trivial to the story as a whole.

I can tell that you won't be convinced so I don't want to waste more time arguing. All I can say is that I feel sorry for anyone who continues resenting the other characters on Shinji's behalf, and whose resentment keeps them from enjoying the Rebuilds. The story is about how he overcomes his own childishness, faces his own mistakes and sets things right. It's a great message for young people, albeit not new or original.

Continuing to be mad about how unfair the situation is to Shinji (and it is unfair) after everything is resolved is no way to enjoy the movie imho, but to each his own.


I have already stated that films work well as a lesson on Condemnation vs Compassion. So the way WILLE treats Shinji is not the problem I have, because as I said before, it fits with the thematic lesson. My main issue is that I do not find it realistic for the reasons I have written in my previous post. I am not simply being "upset on Shinji's behalf." I hope that clears things up.
Last edited by swagbuckking1 on Tue May 11, 2021 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Axx°N N. » Tue May 11, 2021 12:37 pm

View Original PostShinji Ikari Expy wrote:I feel my position is being misunderstood by most of you. It is perfectly OK to dislike Wille's actions. What I'm saying is that has nothing to do with the artistic validity of the story, but a lot of fans seem to think it does.

The only responsibility Anno has as a writer is to explain the motivations of the characters. He did that. The writer does NOT have to make you agree with the actions of the characters.

I don't see a meaningful difference there, because you can explain but do so poorly, and that would therefore qualify as bad writing. And I feel you're misunderstanding the position of others, too.

What are you arguing, that people aren't allowed to find NTE artless? Why is that not allowed? If that's someone's feeling they should retain the right to express and argue in favor of their viewpoint. You can't just say "NTE is artful" as if it's objective fact and then act like it's your duty to defend it against naysayers or convert nonbelievers--that's the definition of zealotry, that you can't acknowledge the subjective and differing views of others against this perceived absolute truth. If you have such an issue with fanboyism, I find the behavior rather contradictory. No one criticizing NTE has been doing that.

Once more: is it somehow impossible to find Wille's portrayal understandable from a 'you're not meant to agree' standpoint, but also just find the writing of NTE overall bad? Why or why isn't that possible? You're making a false equivalence by trying to portray these as inseparable, as if everyone with problems with NTE's writing doesn't separate the two, which I've seen zero evidence of.
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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Shinji Ikari Expy » Tue May 11, 2021 4:47 pm

No one is forcing any of you to find Shin Eva "artistic," nor am I saying that any criticism of it is invalid. I've stated my position clearly -- criticism of characters' actions is not criticism of the film's artistic validity (at least not a very good one). And just because you didn't think the characters' motivations justified their actions doesn't mean it was "explained poorly." You just don't agree with the actions of the characters, which is fine.

I DO find it comical that so many of you can't take "because Shinji could inadvertently cause a deadly global disaster, as he did 14 years ago" as an acceptable answer to "why is everyone so harsh with him?" If anything, the movies are unrealistic because Wille tried to reason with Shinji. A real life "Shinji" would be kept sedated and locked in an underground bunker at some black site prison or maximum security Area 51 lab. (Of course, this would not make a good movie. This level of realism is not needed for Eva, I'm just making a point).

But yes -- you can think what you want about the film.

swagbuckking1
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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby swagbuckking1 » Tue May 11, 2021 7:35 pm

View Original PostShinji Ikari Expy wrote:A real life "Shinji" would be kept sedated and locked in an underground bunker at some black site prison or maximum security Area 51 lab. (Of course, this would not make a good movie. This level of realism is not needed for Eva, I'm just making a point).


I actually talked about this in my previous post:
View Original Postswagbuckking1 wrote:We know they intended to put Shinji in a solitary cell as this is what they do in Shin. If it was solitary confinement on it's own, then I believe it would be a realistic measure that would happen in real life.


The fact they intended to incarcerate Shinji shows they were at least attempting to create a realistic story. If I woke up after being in a coma for 14 years and was then told I was responsible for the manslaughter of millions of people, then me being inside a prison cell would not at all be surprising to me.

However, the additional sanctions that were placed on Shinji, despite him not being a risk from inside of a cell, just reek of uncharacteristic paranoia (and I am willing to include any personality changes caused by the timeskip). A DSS choker is a necessary countermeasure for active pilots (Asuka and Mari) in order to prevent awakenings. If Shinji was to be kept in a cell, why place an explosive collar on him? If Shinji was not inside an Eva, again, why place an explosive collar on him? People always forget that Ritsuko did not think Shinji could ever escape the Wunder because she didn't think NERV would come for him. They thought he would never pilot an Eva again so once again I ask, why place the DSS choker on him? It's pretty much the consensus on the forum, that they weren't doing it for pragmatic reasons, but they simply had a grudge and in Ritsuko's words, wanted to "punish" him. But how does placing an explosive collar on the neck of a 14 year old boy achieve anything that regular imprisonment would not already? We don't place such items on habitual criminals and unrepentant rapists, murderers and pedophiles that are imprisoned in real life. So why do it to a child who was firstly, coerced and emotionally blackmailed into piloting a weapon of mass destruction in the first place and secondly, never actually intended to cause the damage that he did? (NOTE: It is still unconfirmed what the extent of the damage caused by the NTI and the 3I, so we still don't truly know what destruction Shinji is actually responsible for).

I shall reiterate this once again in capitals: Shinji IS HARMLESS WHEN OUTSIDE OF AN EVA.

A cell will render him harmless. If you are going to imprison him, then just imprison him. Everything else is pointless. Don't slap an explosive collar on his neck if he isn't piloting an Eva. Go talk to him in his cell instead of summoning him to you. Because in that case, he can't be that dangerous if you're letting him leave his prison cell. Don't tell him that he has a killing device on his neck and it's because he is being "punished". Don't change the subject when he actually asks what he is being punished for (Ritsuko introduces Sakura when Shinji asks Misato why the choker is needed) and actually explain what "awakening an Eva" means. Placing the DSS choker on him when you already intend to put him in solitary confinement comes across as illogical, unnecessary and sadistic. I challenge anyone to argue that being forced to wear an explosive collar 24/7 is *not* a humiliating and cruel punishment, especially against a child. This is not even done in places like Guantanamo for the most dangerous of terrorists, so why do it to someone who you are aware genuinely did not intend to do what he did?

As for the explosives that are present in Shinji's and Asuka/Mari's rooms, I have stated before why these measures are irrational and tactically stupid. In short, Gendo could easily use the fact WILLE's pilots are kept in explosive rooms against them by tricking WILLE into killing their own pilots by staging an abduction. He would then be unstoppable and have all the time in the world figure out how to trigger another impact without Shinji or Asuka. The fact that WILLE, add *extra* explosives in the pilots room even though they've been working for them for 14 years and actually stopped 4th impact, highlights just how irrational they are. Why add more explosives when the prior ones will do the job anyway. If one bomb will kill me, adding 100 extra bombs won't serve any greater advantage in killing me; it just serves your own emotional gratification.

Which brings me to my next point. The permissive order Misato gave the crew to kill Shinji if they *suspect* he is attempting pilot an Eva. I have already written why I think this measure is unnecessary and also irrational. But since my previous post is very long and people have most likely not read it, I shall summarize: Shinji cannot pilot an Eva without the bridge-bunnies help in sortieing it. This is made especially difficult with the fact the only Eva in WILLE's possession that Shinji can pilot, is currently being used as the ships engine. Even if they wanted Shinji to pilot, they would have to land the Wunder, switch to their previous power source and then release Unit 1 from it's confines. If Shinji stayed on the wunder, even if he was freed from his cell and allowed to roam freely, there was no chance he was getting inside Unit 1 without WILLE's full and informed permission. Because of this, the "kill Shinji if tries to get inside an Eva" order just comes across as extremely paranoid and it defies the logic of the film.

In my previous post, I posted dialogue of the crew talking about Shinji. Hyuga states that Shinji never intended to cause NTI but Midori is still understandably mad at Shinji for getting her family killed. Manslaughter might not be the same as murder, but for the families of the victims, there is no such difference. So in other words, 3.0+1.0 shows that the only two crew members that are that paranoid of Shinji are Midori and also Sakura, since her father was also killed by Shinji (NOTE: It's strange why Touji never mentions this, even to say "I know you never intended that to happen."). So the argument that these measures against Shinji were implemented because the WILLE crew are super desperate, fearful and paranoid falls flat on it's face as it is on-screen confirmed that the only two people that feel like that are Sakura and Midori. Because of this, I find it hard to believe that Misato would bend over backwards just to appease these two people. Especially considering that Misato, the proven risk-taker that she is, will have known that there is a miniscule chance Shinji may be required to pilot Unit 1 again. And she was correct because if she did detonate the choker, if she did allow the crew to kill him, he would not have been alive to stop Gendo, and they all would have died eventually.

When you combine all these measures taken against Shinji together and also factor in what little threat he actually is outside of an Eva and also the fact that the crew are aware he never intended to start NTI, does it seem realistic that WILLE would treat Shinji that way? Nope.

In my opinion, I actually believe WILLE are reasonable, compassionate and understanding people (they are supposed to be the good guys after all) but they were written to be uncharacteristically paranoid and supportive of extreme punishments against Shinji. I believe this was done simply to have Shinji match the mental state he was in during EOE in order to progress the story and artificially initiate his need to "grow up".

Shinji Ikari Expy wrote: I DO find it comical that so many of you can't take "because Shinji could inadvertently cause a deadly global disaster, as he did 14 years ago" as an acceptable answer to "why is everyone so harsh with him?".


I cannot speak on behalf of others who condemn Misato's/WILLE's treatment of Shinji, but I can assure you, that I am not "just mad at WILLE on Shinji's behalf" to paraphrase some of your previous comments. I am calmly and rationally expressing my reasons and theories as to why I believe Misato and WILLE's actions were not logical, realistic or in-keeping with their character, even when you include the personality changes caused by the timeskip. I am not arguing why WILLE treated him that way or why it was wrong (I have already discussed that). I am arguing why it does not make sense from a character perspective. I have given my reasons in my previous posts as to why I think WILLE's characterization comes across as artificial and contrived. Please read them if you wish to provide a rebuttal to the points I have made.
Last edited by swagbuckking1 on Tue May 11, 2021 7:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.


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