The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Axx°N N.
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The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Axx°N N. » Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:54 pm

This thread has been split off from the "Shin Eva leak general" thread.
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Don't know if this has been mentioned on here anywhere, but something I saw someone point out re: the scene where Mari/Shinji are at the shore (all credit to the anon who pointed this out):

Shinji is drawn in key frames, Mari is drawn as in betweens. In terms of the visual language of this, the idea is pretty clear. And it's also this kind of visual language we're largely missing going by camrip clips and the script.

--

In terms of Mari working the way Anno used her in the end, I think that she does, but only in terms of what Eva means to Anno. If it doesn't work for you, sorry to say (and I say this as someone who spent all of yesterday reckoning with it) but you don't see Eva as what it was all along. It always was and still is Anno spilling his feelings onto the page and screen.

Back in NGE+EOE, it was his exploration of his avoidant nature, with all of its intense negativity, and an open window he was giving himself to be able to reach a certain healthier perspective.

Rebuild is the same thing except I think what he has to say is less universally meaningful. He found happiness and stability and he wanted to sever the symbolic baggage that he no longer jibed with, the anger of the original, and the thing Asuka always represented--unhealthy attachment to an idealised form of a person you have yet to fully realize you misunderstood in the first place. It's his reflection back on the basis of what he was expressing--his later self seeing that, whatever conclusions in NGE he came to which led to framing Rei as love, Kaworu as hope, Asuka as The Other he can't truly understand but must try to reconcile with, etc... that currently, his actual retrospective understanding of Asuka is that she was something more simple, just based on love that wasn't meant to be, especially since the intervening years of meeting Moyoco.

There has always been meta readings into Eva (Asuka=old flame, Nerv bridge crew=Gainax for example), and the Rebuilds have now, far more than any lore mysteries, hereafter confirmed that this is in fact the only sensible way to read it, and that it's how Anno reads it. Mari makes no sense in terms of being a human being on her own right, in terms of being a developed character, but her meaning if we draw parallels to Anno's life are clear as day.

Personally, this is how I've started to understand my own dissatisfaction with the meaning of Shin. The case is that I just don't relate to the Anno of today. Part of why he returned was self-stated as profit motivated, and he's since turbo-charged the merch machine that is Eva, and similar to Shinji and his friends getting stylish and moving on to metropolitan life, it appears that his form of personal growth is admitting his faults, localizing his baggage outside of himself to thus be able to walk away from it, and ending it there. Outside this kind of self-involved putting to rights, there's little in the film that truly reckons with the actual exterior world. Like, say, the fact we're in a global nosediving environmental crisis, part of which is worsened by the constant pumping out of squirted plastic into the shape of lewd 14 year olds. Not to say that everyone must make environmental works, but it's hard not to find a weird detached quality to the fact that Shinji's experience in the struggling village, the backdrop of which is a ruined world, leads him to pinpoint Eva itself as the problem and that his magically reimagined world is by all accounts just modern Japan, with all of its industry, environmental detriment, problems regarding work culture and workers' rights, etc. What has he improved (ie, erased) that isn't made-up in the first place?

One would think a compatriot of Miyazaki, Oshii and Tomino would have something more to say about modern life and society other than turning one's brain off and feeling good about everything, especially someone who's such a big fan of Char's Counterattack, which isn't shy to diagnose at length mankind's problems being tied in with egotism, tribalism and pollution. I watched Turn A Gundam recently and, in terms of being a worldly and unexpectedly positive take from a formerly depressed and somewhat cynical man, compared to Shin it felt like it had actual scriptwriting--the characters didn't merely vanish into what they personally represented to their creator. In other words, like actual communication...

I sympathize with Anno's feelings, and as someone in a long & loving marriage, I know firsthand love is salvational. But as a message, especially one from a wealthy man, and considering that finding the right person is a pure luck event not everyone is afforded, I find it to hold no meaning if one works under the belief that narrative isn't just declaration, but communal. In fact, given all of Eva's messaging historically (Rebuild included) of why one must strive to understand oneself and others and fit somehow into the world, I find it all in some way oddly and ironically juvenile.

View Original PostBaka Shinji wrote:I think people give Anno too much credit for Evangelion, forgetting that Eva is first and foremost a Gainax anime and that the Staff that worked with him was excellent.

Not to mention Anno's personal crisis and the Economic depression after the Bubble burst were also a big factor in shaping Eva's identity.

Evangelion is the kind of anime where if any of it's components it's missing it's not "Eva" anymore so it's no wonder than the Rebuilds failed to capture the original's charm, although I never imagined that they'd turn into this trashfire.


A material perspective is a rare one, I find, but I think it's the healthiest and most accurate. Evangelion was good partly because of various scriptwriters who, many of which, never came back, and a lot of talent that did. I also believe creatives don't always have the full insider perspective on their own works, either, so trying to recapture magic is almost destined to fail.

It's why old Star Wars was what it was compared to every followup (even IV & V compared to ROTJ). Now, it doesn't mean Rebuild was destined to be bad or is bad for that reason, logically if it's taken as a completely different work with its own circumstances informing it, it can theoretically walk on its own legs as a separate thing and should be taken on its own merits. Personally I find myself dissatisfied, but not strictly because it isn't the old show.
Last edited by Axx°N N. on Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:20 pm, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: Shin Eva leak general

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Postby Derantor » Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:08 pm

@Axx°N N.: Great post! I don't agree with everything, but the meta-aspects work very well. I especially like that you point out that the current Anno is not the Anno of 25 years ago, and that Anno is only giving his current view on things, like he always did. The ironic part regarding Asuka as a doll-like archetype comparable to Rei is that its only true for Shiki, and only because Anno made it that way in NTE, but it makes sense, of course, if the meta commentary is the most important aspect of her characterization. At least for me, it also explains a lot of choices he made throughout NTE, regarding other characters as well. I wouldn't say that all of Eva can be reduced to meta-aspects, though, or that it is the only sensible reading. I agree that NTE is extremely meta, but NGE is much less that.
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Re: Shin Eva leak general

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Postby Jäeger » Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:05 am

View Original PostJayfive wrote:
View Original PostArtyumR#915234 wrote:but in all these years I've never read or watched something so self-absorbed or self-indulgent from an auteur the last scene in the movie It's basically just Anno flirting with his wife but in animated format.


As far as I am concerned he's more than earned the right to do that.



He can do as he wish. is his toy. But like any other artist, is open to criticism. Sorry, but Anno is not an special case. Neither has miyazaki's status.

View Original PostArtyumR wrote:
Ding ding ding....WE HAVE A WINNER!!!


HAHAHA the quote is mine and yes, I keep it. I believe that many people mistake being an auteUr (a la Lynch) whith pretentiousness. And NTE is the peak of Anno's pretentiousness.

View Original PostPen-Pen02 wrote:
That's right. There isn't intention in the Rebuild movies that Shinji wants to stay with Asuka in the end, or at least see her again. Simply, she already has a new life and no longer appears. With this version the possible story between Shinji and Asuka ends (if it could ever have happened within the context of the Rebuild's films, since nothing of it is seen). Anno closes a chapter and opens a new one with Mari.

SPOILER: Show
https://imgur.com/a/3oKruq6


The hell, the way Anno has dealt with their relationship (he didn't gave a fuck in 2.0) is shameful. Don't spit that info in the last movie after don't give a damn before.
Last edited by Jäeger on Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shin Eva leak general

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:10 am

View Original PostJäeger wrote:
View Original PostJayfive#915240 wrote:
As far as I am concerned he's more than earned the right to do that.



He can do as he wish. is his toy. But like any other artist, is open to criticism. Sorry, but Anno is not an special case. Neither has miyazaki's status.


Jaeger, are you still upset with the ending?
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Re: Shin Eva leak general

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Postby Jäeger » Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:19 am

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:
View Original PostJäeger#915404 wrote:
He can do as he wish. is his toy. But like any other artist, is open to criticism. Sorry, but Anno is not an special case. Neither has miyazaki's status.


Jaeger, are you still upset with the ending?


Upset? Angry? No, I'm a grown man. And NGE is always there.

The word is.....sad. You talk about shipping? After 2.0 I didn´t expect anything between Shikinami and Shinji, so no disappointment here. But man, some choices....and Mari is the epitome of bad writing and a shoehorned fanservice character. Years decades preaching about "don't be an otaku and deal with real life" and now we get this? And more importan : with poorly development. And with a very toxic and unrealistic message bundled.

View Original PostBaka Shinji wrote:I think people give Anno too much credit for Evangelion, forgetting that Eva is first and foremost a Gainax anime and that the Staff that worked with him was excellent.

Not to mention Anno's personal crisis and the Economic depression after the Bubble burst were also a big factor in shaping Eva's identity.

Evangelion is the kind of anime where if any of it's components it's missing it's not "Eva" anymore so it's no wonder than the Rebuilds failed to capture the original's charm, although I never imagined that they'd turn into this trashfire.

So it's no wonder than the Rebuilds failed to capture the original's charm, although I never imagined that they'd turn into this trashfire.

I think that maybe if he ditched the whole Loop/Sequel bait and instead went for a full blown remake along the lines of Shinn Godzilla were "people come together to save the day, despite their personal struggles" we could've gotten something better albeit a bit cliche.


THIS.

Eva was born in a very precise context, economic and social. From a studio which was famous for its creativity and talent. Giving credit an "auter" status to Anno is BS for me and NTE, a Leviathan of pyrotechnics and pretensiouness is the best example. It makes me remember Ridley Scott's example, who after the sucess of Alien and Blade Runner tried as hard as he could to make people believe that they were "auter" works and not the sum of a lot of talents. Spoiler : Prometheus and Covenant were enough to unveal his illusions. Despite being visually powerful films.

View Original PostSlowpokeking wrote:
View Original PostChaddyManPrime#915363 wrote:Because of the choking? Nah, it was done out of anger, not hate.

He didn't seem want to be with her in the end of EOE.


Did we watch the same movie?

View Original PostEscapismIsBad wrote:

A commentary: most of the Western people which didn't see the movie yet don't like the CGI GNR because it looks like bad CG, in truth I appreciate this new GNR, the photorealism and uncanny valley looks very unnerving and disturbing, of course people aren't going to like it, but that's very close to the point being proposed. I doubt if EoE was made with today's technology the GNR wouldn't be like that too.


I have my doubts about that. For EoE they hired Project IG. THE FUCKING BEST, I'm sure it wasn't cheap. And be sure there is a lot of computer work in that movie. CGI has been very shitty in NTE from the beginning. And there are not budget excuses here : If you need help, spend money and get it. it reminds me of The Godfather PART 3. A good film, better than most, but it pales in comparision with the previous films and even the casting feels way cheaper despite being born just for the sake of cashgrab.
View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:
See. To say nothing of the fact that Anno made them both have 28-year old bodies, but Shinji is either still mentally 14 and Mari is mentally fucking 51, or maybe Shinji has already spent some years there. Let's say he is mentally 23. Mari is mentally 60. An old lady.


Anf he wants us to believe that Shikinami and Shinji, whom liked one each other and had a bond, can't overcome their differences (face reality) and start gain together despite the time skip. And after being obvious that Asuka hasn't really moved on. It's better to wait that a savior falls from the sky. Fucking secluded otakus, why arént you in the street waiting that a manic pixie dream girl falls in your life? I'm sure you havent tried hard enough. Still depressed? That's is because you haven't tried to find the right landing spot.

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:I sucks that we have to rely on old continuity in order for the characters relationships to have relevance enough for the ending to make sense.


Take Hikari/Touji as an example. Almost zero interaction. And, to a bigger extent, Misato's and Kaji's relationship. So poorly developed in comparision with NGE.

View Original PostSlowpokeking wrote:
Asuka is what Shinji wanted as a girl, but I think love is not physical feeling based on sexuality. Maybe I'm different than others. I think Shinji's relationship with the 2nd Rei was more like true love beyond sexual attraction.


Eva Chronicle get it clear : Asuka love/hate (her injured pride) towards Shinji; Shinji "complicated feelings" towards her. And EoE it gets clear that she is the one she wants (the cards confirmed the fact) and if she came back to life by his side (she could have at any place of the glove) there must be a reason. About Rei and Shinji, reciprocated "sympathy" (same for Kaworu).

But we are talking about Shikinami, not Soryu. Very different characters.
Last edited by Jäeger on Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:02 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Shin Eva leak general

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:38 am

View Original PostJäeger wrote:
View Original PostChaddyManPrime#915405 wrote:
Jaeger, are you still upset with the ending?


Upset? Angry? No, I'm a grown man. And NGE is always there.

The word is.....sad. You talk about shipping? After 2.0 I didn´t expect anything between Shikinami and Shinji, so no disappointment here. But man, some choices....and Mari is the epitome of bad writing and a shoehorned fanservice character. Years decades preaching about "don't be an otaku and deal with real life" and now we get this? And more importan : with poorly development. And with a very toxic and unrealistic message bundled


I feel you brother, I was personally upset with it, just because of what it says and the lack of effort. We've done our best in the absence of Anno to deal with the thoughts and feelings his work has inspired in us. We've done many great works in my opinion, with our art, fan fiction, and essays. Maybe i've been spoiled by them? They've helped sate me when there was nothing from him, perhaps even expanded my expectations for when he would decide to give us something new, maybe to the point of being unrealistic, but I know what is reasonable.

Everything that I've seen typed or shown about how the relationship is brought to a close is so, so... tone deaf. He wants it to be the final word on the topic, he wants it to not be sequel but at the same time he wants to give us closure on characters that don't exist anymore, using an obstacle that was never an issue but is now insurmountable for them. For all the possible issues that they would need to overcome, ones that could be used to explain why a relationship is impossible, they artificially craft one to deal with them, it's a cop out. And to follow that up with the very same issue but not have it be an issue, is just so nonsensical.

I think that's a rant from me. I'm not going to do it anymore, it's pointless, you guys can't do shit about any of the concerns.
Last edited by ChaddyManPrime on Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Jäeger » Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:48 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:
View Original PostFelipeFritschF#915337 wrote:Mari has not nearly enough development, and never forms a connection with Shinji in the scenes they have together (10 minutes or so in the entire tetralogy, including the ending).
About as much time as OG Kaworu got.


Worst example ever. The point of kawou was being the last angel (so 1 episode) and having a big and fast impact in that short time. And still, in that short time...they develop a bond. And the character has development in just 20 minutes. Just one performance, but well written.

Almost ZERO interaction between Mari and Shinji in 4 MOVIES. The hell, 4 movies and almost zero character development. Oh, yeah "Maria of Iscariot", to join the religious gibberish and pretentiousness. So let's be serious about how maybe, just maybe, this time Anno has done it wrong. He is not Miyazaki. He is not untouchable. Not after not releasing a single original work since 2000. Auteur, my....

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:I feel you brother, I was personally upset with it, just because of what it says and the lack of effort. We've done our best in the absence of Anno to deal with the thoughts and feelings his work has inspired in us. We've done many great works in my opinion, with our art, fan fiction, and essays. Maybe i've been spoiled by them? They've helped sate me when there was nothing from him, perhaps even expanded my expectations for when he would decide to give us something new, maybe to the point of being unrealistic, but I know what is reasonable.

Everything that I've seen typed or shown about how the relationship is brought to a close is so, so... tone deaf. He wants it to be the final word on the topic, he wants it to not be sequel but at the same time he wants to give us closure on characters that don't exist anymore, using an obstacle that was never an issue but is now insurmountable for them. For all the possible issues that they would need to overcome, ones that could be used to explain why a relationship is impossible, they artificially craft one to deal with them, it's a cop out. And to follow that up with the very same issue but not have it be an issue, is just so nonsensical.

I think that's a rant from me. I'm not going to do it anymore, it's pointless, you guys can't do shit about any of the concerns.


Yeah. OG and Soryu's relationship is always gonna be there. But they way he has dealt with this, even in a meta way...shitty writting and hypocrisy at least. Of course, everything well hidden behind dazzling visuals. His only target to give us that closure, but he didn't care about cheating was the route (I'll save my harsher words for intimacy). And beware, I'm sure I'm gonna enjoy the movie, I'm gonna get fun for 2 1/2 hours....but If I didn't have respect for NTE as "Evangelion" before, the conclusion is gonna have even less. If the creator priorizes his ego (and the need of cash for his new studio), I'm not gonna join his ride. Of course, It's my personal opinion and I understand many people don't share my POV.

But mark my words : in 2045 3.0 + 1.0 won't be remembered as EOE is in 2021. It's a prediction that is not gonna fail.

And, as always, The Simpson's did it before.

Creating Mari, Anno ripped off Groening

SPOILER: Show
Image


Maybe he wasn't wrong when he talked about the character who'll destroy Eva : SAME VIBES. That's how poorly written her existence and role feels.
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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:19 am

For those whose ships got torpedoed, there are always these alternative sources of solace

Rei -- Eureka Seven
Misato -- RahXephon
Kaworu -- Fafner (sort of)
Asuka -- ReTake, of course
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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby cremino » Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:02 am

I think a Mana Kirishima-esque character would have been better than Mari because the age difference would not have been a problem and thematically it works just as well

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:18 am

One meta-element that seems to be a whole lot stronger to me in NTE is the idea of creating the world again in your own image. That could either be in terms of "purifying" the world and returning it to a previous state or trying to change the world in order to get the one person you love the most back (Shinji and Rei, Gendo and Yui, implied with Dr. Katsuragi and his wife). An Evangelion in this continuity is an instrument for making the wishes of a select person come true. By destroying all Evangelions, Shinji is thematically ending the desire to change the world and its people towards what he wants and accepting it for what it is, with all its limitations and flaws. Rather than escapism, the story seems to suggest that human beings can create something beautiful in reality, or even in the ruins of a broken world (the village of survivors).

So does this movie necessarily abandon the themes of End of Evangelion, or Episodes 25 and 26? No, not at all. But it does suggest that there is a way for people to will their way out of a despair-filled world together, except in a more upbeat way.
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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Thesufferingpumpkin » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:21 am

I reckon when viewed back to back with NGE

Shin eva will look like a god damn masterpiece

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Re: Shin Eva leak general

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Postby EscapismIsBad » Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:15 pm

View Original PostEscapismIsBad#915342 wrote:

A commentary: most of the Western people which didn't see the movie yet don't like the CGI GNR because it looks like bad CG, in truth I appreciate this new GNR, the photorealism and uncanny valley looks very unnerving and disturbing, of course people aren't going to like it, but that's very close to the point being proposed. I doubt if EoE was made with today's technology the GNR wouldn't

I have my doubts about that. For EoE they hired Project IG. THE FUCKING BEST, I'm sure it wasn't cheap. And be sure there is a lot of computer work in that movie. CGI has been very shitty in NTE from the beginning. And there are not budget excuses here : If you need help, spend money and get it. it reminds me of The Godfather PART 3. A good film, better than most, but it pales in comparision with the previous films and even the casting feels way cheaper despite being born just

Yes, Production IG is very beautiful and extremely talented, although, I don't think Khara is behind it so much regarding quality, NTE stands up pretty well compared to other modern series and anime Production IG worked on like Attack on Titan (which is drop dead gorgeous, it's so great), NTE maybe even have more artistic value and care put into it. Once i showed my friend a random image of Evangelion Unit 00 from 2.0, he genuinely couldn't distinguish it from more modern anime.
It may be subjective but I completely disagree, I like a lot the CG of 1.0 and 2.0, the new Angels are stunning beautiful, the city is more alive than ever, the Yashiori Operation delivers in every way possible, the new Sahaquiel scene blew my mind because of the realism and atmosphere... the CG does have quite a charm into it and being sincere it's not like Khara was being lazy by adding CG, pretty much the contrary, instead of choosing being stuck in the past and become obsolete Khara chose to learn new things and innovate from there, I appreciate that. The new GNR is made to look weird and uncanny, much like the new Angels, it was a decision made by the director.
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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Blockio » Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:35 pm

Jäeger, knock it off. You're being needlessly confrontational.
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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:38 pm

Yeah, you should really tone it down, Jaeger. You say you're a mature adult, but you sure don't act like it.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:39 pm

I think I''ll just end up repeating myself at this point. I understand what the movie is doing thematically, yes, and I applaud it. At the same time, it feels forced, unearned, and underdeveloped.

You know what else did that? EoTV. A fantastic experience, thematically, but narratively sterile.

I think I'll just paste my biggest post on it:

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:While I completely understand what Anno is doing thematically, it feels like using Mari for it doesn't really work. I've mentioned before that the ANN review and all the Japanese reviews I read mention this: from a purely narrative standpoint, Mari has not nearly enough development, and never forms a connection with Shinji in the scenes they have together (10 minutes or so in the entire tetralogy, including the ending). I wonder if a more obviously open-ended ending would have worked better. Because, if Shinji moves on from the Eva world, why exactly is someone that loves the Evas so much supposed to be his guide? Leaving aside the shipping per see and opposing mother figure/guide/close frend/matchmaker (lol) implications.

It feels weird. I argued in the past that Asuka simply had unresolved feelings for him. I never expected an actual love confession... even in the past tense. Asuka has gotten over him for entirely understandable AND MATURE reasons. This is something that I applaud, because even if the A/S relationship is all about facing hardships blah blah in the real world, Asuka can't just revolve around Shinji. But then Asuka acts super mega tsundere and blushes the hell out when Shinji returns her past feelings? What the hell? Why can't she just smile and say "thanks", like Shinji also does, providing mutual closure? That kinda feels like teasing again, but at the same time it half defeats the purpose of the scene. Yet at the same time, the A/S shippers themselves didn't expect much from the Weebuilds because 2.0 simply doesn't give enough development to their relationship either. It's bizarre. Asuka just happens to love Shinji but he has barely earned her love either. A bento?!?

Well, either way, like I said, it means that, when the plot wasn't there, they did love each other, inside the narrative. Applies to EoE, applies to NGE, and will probably apply for all the upcoming terrible spin-offs. Or at least be interpreted as such.

Back to the ending, it seems to me to be kinda like the Congratulations scene in EoTV. While it might not get exactly as much backlash as that one (who knows?), I do think the narrative isn't supporting the themes too well. Something blander like them all together at the station walking to the real world would have been more effective. The focus on Mari just feels weird and out of nowhere. And her appearing out of nowhere as a "saviour" is contrary to the generally accepted interpretation of NGE - work on your problems, don't expect a magic saviour, etc. This having been exactly what Kaworu was trying to do and it again not working out - and interesting that this is now framed as a fault on Kaworu's part- I wouldn't quite call it self serving but Kaji says he wanted to make himself happy, and that's an interesting point. Kaworu is more humanized in NTE by way of being misguided instead of more indecipherable and alien. Whereas the "core" with Asuka isn't there at all. They aren't shown to be incompatible, to be toxic together. The problem is that Shinji failed her once, and realized this too late. Remember when Shinji failed her in NGE? He failed to support her when he didn't kiss her back, didn't help he with her deteriorating mental state. There were character reasons for it. In EoE, those were more or less resolved, and then we have them together in ending, with what will happen from there left to the reader. In NTE that also happens. with Shinji not helping her against the Ninth Angel, and he also realizes that, and improves as a character.. but he does so 14 years later. For Shinji all that time had not passed, even if it did for Asuka. It's weird.

So I dunno. I'm not sure I'm buying it. I understand it, but it feels somewhat cheap. It doesn't seem a lot of people are either.

I wonder if we'll need a split thread for this specific point.


Nay, I wonder if there will be a DC that considerably retcons the movie, again. EoTV also generated controversy, fan demand for MOAR, and fan backlash. This is about the same, even if the movie itself is more conclusive. Yet at the same time a weird conclusion. Some extra 5-10 minutes just to better contextualize things and/or make them more balanced insofar as open-endedness goes is enough.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby roblucci01 » Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:50 pm

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:This thread has been split off from the "Shin Eva leak general" thread.
-Zusuchan

Part of why he returned was self-stated as profit motivated, and he's since turbo-charged the merch machine that is Eva, and similar to Shinji and his friends getting stylish and moving on to metropolitan life, it appears that his form of personal growth is admitting his faults, localizing his baggage outside of himself to thus be able to walk away from it, and ending it there.


Except Shinji and co. are last seen in Ube, a considerably small city by Japan standards, and not in or close to any particular massive metropolitan area like Kanto or Kansai. So if anything, they moved out of the big city to somewhere smaller and quieter. As far as the baggage aspect is concerned, I can't speak for Anno, I don't know him that well, certainly not anywhere near so the fans that have researched his life and the way it bleads into Eva. As far as Shinji though, I'm not really certain that's the case. We're kind of used to Shinji having internal monologues and "figuring things out" until the very last minute, but this time around, I think he did that pretty early on in the movie for the most part. Actually if anything, this Instrumentality sequence felt more like Shinji helping everyone else out with their baggage. I'm not 100% sure if it's more internality or externality though. Maybe Anno had to do that with people in his life at some point and have those conversations himself, and we just have no way of knowing that.

Outside this kind of self-involved putting to rights, there's little in the film that truly reckons with the actual exterior world. Like, say, the fact we're in a global nosediving environmental crisis, part of which is worsened by the constant pumping out of squirted plastic into the shape of lewd 14 year olds.


Certainly a reasonable point, I won't argue that one. I've never owned one of those things and I probably never will. I mean, I have no problem with other people doing that. For me to do that though, I think it would just be kind of childish at my age. But I think some of the commercial merchandise that has come out of Evangelion recently has actually been pretty sick, like for example, Evangelion fashion, which has been taking off in Japan recently. Or, things like CDs and LPs. The music element has certainly done wonders for Utada Hikaru's career, and appears to have given some other artists a platform as well.

Not to say that everyone must make environmental works, but it's hard not to find a weird detached quality to the fact that Shinji's experience in the struggling village, the backdrop of which is a ruined world, leads him to pinpoint Eva itself as the problem and that his magically reimagined world is by all accounts just modern Japan, with all of its industry, environmental detriment, problems regarding work culture and workers' rights, etc. What has he improved (ie, erased) that isn't made-up in the first place?


Dude, places all over the world have problems. Tribal societies have problems, rural societies have problems. The fact of the matter is, Japan is not a perfect place or a utopia, but you are absolutely going to be hard-pressed to find very many places, if any, that are better off. I don't think Shinji's intention was creating a utopia or solving everyone's problems. Shinji rejected the idea of a perfect world as an escape twice now (three, if you include both EoTV and EoE). He simply wanted to rid the world of the one thing that caused the most suffering in his, his family's, and his friend's lives, the Evangelion. I'm fine with him leaving it at that.

I sympathize with Anno's feelings, and as someone in a long & loving marriage, I know firsthand love is salvational. But as a message, especially one from a wealthy man, and considering that finding the right person is a pure luck event not everyone is afforded, I find it to hold no meaning if one works under the belief that narrative isn't just declaration, but communal. In fact, given all of Eva's messaging historically (Rebuild included) of why one must strive to understand oneself and others and fit somehow into the world, I find it all in some way oddly and ironically juvenile.


I just feel like there is almost a suffocating amount of focus being put on Mari's role in Shinji's life at the end of this movie. I don't think their relationship is Shinji's salvation but rather a result of him finally "growing up" and perhaps becoming a more desirable human being. Shinji salvaged himself with grace this time around, so the way I see it, it's less that "she's the prize" and more that "he's the prize". And for actually saving the world, why wouldn't he be?

Asuka's character arc in Rebuild is honestly kind of tragic, but let's think about it this way: not everyone ends up happy, just as you said. Some people never get married. Some people end up in failed marriages or get divorced. This may be a bit of a stretch, but I think there is a reason Asuka was sitting by herself at that train platform. If you're perpetually unkind to others and treat your friends like trash, usually that stems from the self. So Asuka clearly has some more shit she needs to work through at the end of Rebuild. That being said, she has a genuine friend and someone who supports her in Kensuke. So she can't take that for granted. I think this is a wise commentary on the tsundere genre in an anime industry meta sense. I say all this as an Asuka fan, mind you.

Evangelion is the kind of anime where if any of it's components it's missing it's not "Eva" anymore so it's no wonder than the Rebuilds failed to capture the original's charm, although I never imagined that they'd turn into this trashfire.


I know you weren't the one who said this, but I feel like it's a bit of an over-reaction.

Now, it doesn't mean Rebuild was destined to be bad or is bad for that reason, logically if it's taken as a completely different work with its own circumstances informing it, it can theoretically walk on its own legs as a separate thing and should be taken on its own merits.


A truly mature take, I agree 100%.

Personally I find myself dissatisfied, but not strictly because it isn't the old show.


Hey, as is your right. To each their own. You brought up a lot of valuable points, and while I may not agree with all of your conclusions, you definitely took time to think about and rationally justify why Rebuild isn't your thing.
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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby chee » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:00 pm

It's an established fact that Shinji's penis is my penis. And Anno did my penis dirty. This is all that matters. All art exists to validate my penis.

I will not rest until my penis enters the character that I arbitrarily designate "best girl" due to a checklist of kinks that scream volumes about my own psychosexual insecurities.
Last edited by chee on Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby JuanSorel » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:01 pm

Flaws and artistic validity of a movie most of us haven´t seen: the thread. :devil:

I am sorry, but that is just funny. :wink:

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:06 pm

Oh, also repasting these: The Japanese are also having a hard time buying Mari's role here, even if they like the movie itself. This review touches upon it well:

https://note.com/wakari_te/n/n0ba0c462e025

Yes, Shinji Ikari is represented as the complete alter ego of Hideaki Anno at this point. In other words, the character "Shinji Ikari" does not appear for even a second in this film. This is because his existence has been completely taken over by Anno Hideaki.

Next to him, Mari, who takes Shinji's hand, is a woman from the real world who guides Shinji (Anno), namely his wife, Moyoco Anno.

This may sound delusional, but there are many aspects of Shin-Eva that must be interpreted as metaphors for reality to make the story work. The relationship between Shinji and Mari is a prime example.

Shinji and Mari only see each other four times in the series (the rooftop scene and the destroyed No. 2 machine in "Daigo", the isolation room and the scene where they go to minus space in "Shin"), and they hardly have any in-depth conversations. In other words, there is no way to establish a strong relationship of trust, but somehow it is assumed that they are bound together by a uniquely strong bond. It would be impossible to decipher this relationship except as a projection of real human relationships.


View Original PostArtyumR wrote:
there isn't any chemistry between Mari and Shinji , you will not find that in the movie she just met Mari properly at the middle of the movie
there is no conversation. In other words, there is no way to establish a strong relationship , but for some reason it is supposed to be a unique and strong bond. :rolleyes:

it makes no sense if you think about Shinji as an independent entity and not just H.Anno telling that he's in a better place now.


See. To say nothing of the fact that Anno made them both have 28-year old bodies, but Shinji is either still mentally 14 and Mari is mentally fucking 51, or maybe Shinji has already spent some years there. Let's say he is mentally 23. Mari is mentally 60. An old lady.

ANN review: https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review ... me/.170407

However, as strong as the film is overall, it isn't without its drawbacks. Mari draws the short stick when it comes to character development for the pilots—which is odd considering how vital she is to the overall story and its resolution. While nearly every action scene in the film centers around her, she gets no real character arc and the specifics of her past remain shrouded in mystery.

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Re: The flaws and/or artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole

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Postby Axx°N N. » Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:13 pm

@roblucci01

The diplomacy is appreciated! As for the Asuka tangent, I can see hints already of her being the most debated aspect of all. I think your take makes sense and feels intuitive given all the other meta readings, though if she were meant to be the sole tragic outcome, I don't think it's explored enough. I mean, her poor integration with others is treated at length in, say, everything that happens just before and after her mindbreak in NGE. I think NTE Asuka requires far too much extrapolation at this point, though perhaps the Instrumentality scenes will flesh it out.

When I referred to externalizing baggage, I mean the Evas representing what needs to be gotten rid of. To me that has no substantive meaning; it's almost like scapegoating. For Anno perhaps it represents that Eva, as a franchise, is an albatross. But the world isn't fixed or even enhanced in any meaningful way that relates to the actual world by erasing it literally or figuratively from his universe. It has meaning for him to walk away from it, but I feel that the meaning left behind is nil for everyone else.

View Original Postroblucci01 wrote:Except Shinji and co. are last seen in Ube, a considerably small city by Japan standards, and not in or close to any particular massive metropolitan area like Kanto or Kansai. So if anything, they moved out of the big city to somewhere smaller and quieter.

Ube has more to do with the fact it's Anno's hometown, again for the meta element. They still look extremely slick, in fact they remind me of promo images of the Eva fashion lines you bring up. Personally that strikes me as consumerist in nature.

View Original Postroblucci01 wrote:Dude, places all over the world have problems. Tribal societies have problems, rural societies have problems. The fact of the matter is, Japan is not a perfect place or a utopia, but you are absolutely going to be hard-pressed to find very many places, if any, that are better off. I don't think Shinji's intention was creating a utopia or solving everyone's problems. Shinji rejected the idea of a perfect world as an escape twice now (three, if you include both EoTV and EoE). He simply wanted to rid the world of the one thing that caused the most suffering in his, his family's, and his friend's lives, the Evangelion. I'm fine with him leaving it at that.

I just feel like there is almost a suffocating amount of focus being put on Mari's role in Shinji's life at the end of this movie. I don't think their relationship is Shinji's salvation but rather a result of him finally "growing up" and perhaps becoming a more desirable human being. Shinji salvaged himself with grace this time around, so the way I see it, it's less that "she's the prize" and more that "he's the prize". And for actually saving the world, why wouldn't he be?

I don't think he should have imagined utopia, it's essential that the embrace of the problematic world be his ultimate destination. In fact I think EoE and EoTV are already fine treatments of 'turning Shinji into a desirable person' without the need to apparently remove his introverted nature, transforming him into a person he never was or had hints of being or wanting to be. Is he desirable because he manages to throw his weight in an epic final anime battle? Because he talks it out with everyone, even his homicidal deified father, and they all agree everything's fine now? My qualm isn't that Shinji is given happiness, but that this is a seemingly shallow happiness that requires too much suspension of disbelief. My qualm with Anno regarding Shin Eva's lack of anything real or difficult is that he's had over a decade to address reality and try and say something new, but in the end he only touches on the same general 'learn to live with others' theme except now he's introduced a farming motif. There just doesn't seem to be any teeth or seriousness to it in terms of a work looking out at the world, and I personally am disappointed because of that, since that's what I desire from creative works.

The next step after 'live with yourself' from NGE's two endings is something more substantive regarding how to understand the unvarnished exterior world and its problems, and to me a repetition of the old message and preoccupation with a happy ending, franchise self-reflexiveness, not to mention increasingly cliche anime tropes, just isn't an evolution in an artistic sense.

View Original PostJuanSorel wrote:Flaws and artistic validity of a movie most of us haven´t seen: the thread. :devil:

I am sorry, but that is just funny. :wink:

Of course I'm open to changing my mind, and that the basis of what I'm working off of is purely dialogue and leaked clips. I look forward to seeing how much of my take holds up once I've seen it. :tongue:
Last edited by Axx°N N. on Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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